Pelosi vs AOC feud

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I'm a firearms enthusiast from an engineering standpoint. It soothes the little monkey in my head that likes to play with puzzle boxes and figure out efficient solutions to hard problems.

[Pergamos]

At the same time, Congress is a numbers game. Which I think, like her or don't like her, is ultimately where Pelosi is coming from.  The Dems in the House can do shit if they are in the minority. With a majority, they may not be able to do what the liberal wing of the party wants done, but they can do more than zero. 

I think that is where the rub is.  Pelosi and establishment want to move the ball to see if they can smash their way to a first down, AOC et al want to get a touch down on first possession. 

Of course the reality is with an R Senate and White House, it's not like there's too much the D's can accomplish, but whatever possibilities there might be, it certainly isn't going to be with a red-meat liberal initiative.

So in other words, we have to accept a moderate centrist agenda to achieve the agenda we need a buck short and a day late.

Yes, because like it or not, the American electorate is, at best, center-left.  AOC will get re-elected in her District all day long.  Meanwhile, in Maine's northern district, we have center-Left Jared Golden.  Now, he's not a Pelosi fan, he voted against her speakership in fact, but overall, much more moderate than AOC.  You will never, get someone like AOC elected in that district.  Golden won his election by miniscule numbers, he was lucky.  It's a center-right district. 

That's what you have to contend with.  To have more progressive/liberals, you have to have massive changes in the electorates in those regions, or catch lightning in a bottle and nominate someone who can win over right-leaning districts with personality to distract from their policy positions.  You might get lucky and do that in a few districts, but not on a scale to significantly tip the House to the progressive left. 

So given that reality, those numbers, is it best to get something or nothing?  That's where Pelosi is coming from.  And she's right.  Because the math is the math.

It's important to look at the popularity of policy in places like that.  A lot of what AOC supports that Pelosi doesn't is directly beneficial to the working class and a lot of those center right, or even full right wing, working class voters support them.  A progressive has a better chance than a centrist in plenty of conservative districts.

[Pergamos]

RWHN: with all due respect, you have lost your fucking mind.

The neoliberal half of the Dem Party has no spine and kowtows to the merest whim of people who would gun them down in public if they thought they could get away with it, all so they can look like the good guys and appeal to the centrists. "I want to get something done!" They scream, while ignoring that the only things they'll be allowed to do is continuing the inexorable painting of a swastika on the American Flag.

Newsflash, fuckface, Pelosi's geriatric, weak-sister groupies aren't going to get shit done either. The pushback is too strong and the opposition is playing the pigeon strategy. Schumer isn't going to throw the fuck down over basic human rights considering WE HAVE CHILDREN BEING SENT TO DIE IN CAGES and he has the skeletal strength of a deep sea fish after soaking in a vat of hydrazine for a fucking decade, STILL. What's he going to do when it turns to black people, or LGBT groups? "But that's illegal, mister supreme leader!"

If we don't get some steel-boned motherfuckers up there we'll continue to watch our "left wing" make weak gestures of opposition and mumbling statements of gratitude to goosestepping fascists until the day the camps open for political opposition.

Tiptoeing toward a better future doesn't work when you're faced with people who have no empathy, big boots, and a gun in hand. You fucking sprint for it and hope you make it to cover before you get a hole blown out of you. Same goddamn principle here.

Pay the fuck attention to what's going on. You don't placate a fucking genocidal sociopath! You don't make incremental moves when you're on a treadmill set to high speed, either. Pelosi doesn't have the goddamn RABIES necessary to make the right decisions here and if you can't see that, I have no fucking clue what the hell you learned from your time in these parts.

Of course you don't placate Trump.  You get him out of office and deny him a second term.  That's the quickest way to deal with and get rid of the atrocities he's imposing across our country.  But a circular firing squad is not going to get that job done.

Very true.  Pelosi and the centrists are doing a LOT of damage when they attack the left wing of the party.

[Norman]

At the same time, Congress is a numbers game. Which I think, like her or don't like her, is ultimately where Pelosi is coming from.  The Dems in the House can do shit if they are in the minority. With a majority, they may not be able to do what the liberal wing of the party wants done, but they can do more than zero. 

I think that is where the rub is.  Pelosi and establishment want to move the ball to see if they can smash their way to a first down, AOC et al want to get a touch down on first possession. 

Of course the reality is with an R Senate and White House, it's not like there's too much the D's can accomplish, but whatever possibilities there might be, it certainly isn't going to be with a red-meat liberal initiative.

So in other words, we have to accept a moderate centrist agenda to achieve the agenda we need a buck short and a day late.

Yes, because like it or not, the American electorate is, at best, center-left.  AOC will get re-elected in her District all day long.  Meanwhile, in Maine's northern district, we have center-Left Jared Golden.  Now, he's not a Pelosi fan, he voted against her speakership in fact, but overall, much more moderate than AOC.  You will never, get someone like AOC elected in that district.  Golden won his election by miniscule numbers, he was lucky.  It's a center-right district. 

That's what you have to contend with.  To have more progressive/liberals, you have to have massive changes in the electorates in those regions, or catch lightning in a bottle and nominate someone who can win over right-leaning districts with personality to distract from their policy positions.  You might get lucky and do that in a few districts, but not on a scale to significantly tip the House to the progressive left. 

So given that reality, those numbers, is it best to get something or nothing?  That's where Pelosi is coming from.  And she's right.  Because the math is the math.

It's important to look at the popularity of policy in places like that.  A lot of what AOC supports that Pelosi doesn't is directly beneficial to the working class and a lot of those center right, or even full right wing, working class voters support them.  A progressive has a better chance than a centrist in plenty of conservative districts.

Are you serious with that?  You're talking about tea-party conservatives right there the Fox News money demo. Hell, no way, they are going to support left wing policies, not from a left wing politician.  I mean, shit, I think they are probably nutzo enough to support left wing policies if by some miracle they were being touted by Ted Cruz or one of their own. But fuck no, are they going to line up behind a left wing candidate. 

[Don Coyote]

Even if I found the need to have a gun, I wouldn't be enthusiastic about it. I'd be bummed out that I lived in a shitty society that necessitated having a gun.

Big fucking mood

Also why the fuck are yall entertaining drugs are bad mkay shitty suit mcshutup and go back to your shitty maine with your shit ass smaller than my desert podunk hometown capital?

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Are you serious with that?  You're talking about tea-party conservatives right there the Fox News money demo. Hell, no way, they are going to support left wing policies, not from a left wing politician.  I mean, shit, I think they are probably nutzo enough to support left wing policies if by some miracle they were being touted by Ted Cruz or one of their own. But fuck no, are they going to line up behind a left wing candidate.

God it's like you were in a coma for all of 2016

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It's like he's been in a coma since 2013 really. You could have just hit pause when he left and unpaused him when he returned, brandishing lukewarm takes as white hot truth and engaging in the ancient art of trolling so stale it is little more than a distinctive set of mold stains.

[Norman]

Are you serious with that?  You're talking about tea-party conservatives right there the Fox News money demo. Hell, no way, they are going to support left wing policies, not from a left wing politician.  I mean, shit, I think they are probably nutzo enough to support left wing policies if by some miracle they were being touted by Ted Cruz or one of their own. But fuck no, are they going to line up behind a left wing candidate.

God it's like you were in a coma for all of 2016

I was running a political campaign for all of 2016. 

But c'mon you guys have seen these Trump supporters right?  I mean, I will grant you, an uber-liberal candidate, with the right personality, could pick off some center-right folks who actually have had their ethical boundaries crossed with Trump.  But when you're saying they could also win over the right wing, nah, that's not gonna happen.  Biden, isn't going to win over the right wing.  But you don't need to, in the short term, to get rid of Trump.  You need someone who can win Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin.  But ya gotta focus, and put aside the identity politics. 

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The second you start saying shit about identity politics you've fallen off the fucking bus altogether. Realize that identity politics is a way of saying actual people's immutable natures are political. Identity politics is literally recognizing these people exist and their lives matter.

People like me.

So you're saying we need to stop protecting people who are having their existences politicized, their lives torn down around them, so the privileged white folks don't feel bad. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, you high and mighty sack of fucking shit.

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How the fuck do you whine about identity politics right now if you aren't a shitty person? I'm pretty sure it makes you a shitty person by default currently because the default opposition to it is cryptofascist centrist shitloaves. You get their poop and pond scum on you by simple fact you say that shit.

But then again RWHN wants a security apparatus aimed at children to stop the evils of drug use, I should have expected him to be a fucking jackboot licker.

[Norman]

The second you start saying shit about identity politics you've fallen off the fucking bus altogether. Realize that identity politics is a way of saying actual people's immutable natures are political. Identity politics is literally recognizing these people exist and their lives matter.

People like me.

So you're saying we need to stop protecting people who are having their existences politicized, their lives torn down around them, so the privileged white folks don't feel bad. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, you high and mighty sack of fucking shit.

No, not at all. I'm saying put aside litmus tests, get the orange buffoon out of office. If he gets another 4 years, shit's gonna get worse.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

The second you start saying shit about identity politics you've fallen off the fucking bus altogether. Realize that identity politics is a way of saying actual people's immutable natures are political. Identity politics is literally recognizing these people exist and their lives matter.

People like me.

So you're saying we need to stop protecting people who are having their existences politicized, their lives torn down around them, so the privileged white folks don't feel bad. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, you high and mighty sack of fucking shit.

No, not at all. I'm saying put aside litmus tests, get the orange buffoon out of office. If he gets another 4 years, shit's gonna get worse.

He will get another 4 years if we put up a mealy mouthed centrist. Believe me, I've talked to my insane mother in law from Dallas, I know what people hate about the liberals and it isn't the liberalness, it's the spineless "I deserve this" bullshit. AOC's wing has balls. That's what people want.

[chaotic neutral observer]

Let's see if I understand this (keeping in mind that my understanding of American psychology is based on movies, television, and randos on the internet, and that I have been having some difficulty following this conversation.)

Americans despise both weakness, and the appearance of weakness.
Americans hate to lose, and love to win; and it isn't even enough to win, the other side must lose.

A candidate who advocates compromise, and says things like "let's everybody get along", is not likely to be received well, regardless of their actual political alignment or platform, because a willingness to compromise, or to meet the other side half-way, will be perceived as weakness, or as letting the other guys "win".

It isn't enough for the successful candidate to present a platform that a majority of the population can see as being to their benefit, the candidate must also demonstrate (the appearance of) strength, conviction, and an unwillingness to compromise.  This may even matter more than the political alignment of the candidate.  Bonus points if the candidate promises to "stick it to The Man" (whether the candidate is in bed with The Man or not).

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That's... pretty accurate. It's more accurate for the GOP than the Dems, but... surprisingly good fit.

The key is that the Dems are more interested in empathy than utter destruction of the enemy.

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I should clarify, empathy doesn't preclude strength for the left wing in the US. It's more, "I have so much strength I can afford to use it to help others and not be hurt by it." The GOP, totally opposite deal.

The Dems tend to accept some weakness in their candidates, but one weakness that is hemorrhaging confidence in the party is weakness of character. They talk a big game then they bow to their masters (the GOP, by way of Pavlov and Overton) anyway. At this point, "actually doing something" is the winning strategy for the left, and the center left doesn't do that.