An Epistle to Them that got Ears.

[agent compassion]

Yes he was drunk and typing in tiny letters last time I saw him...

[Cain]

He also known by the mysterious name of GOAT.  I will actually start working on the new mission stuff again soon, perhaps Sunday. I need tomorrow to tool up and do some course reading.

[Mangrove]

*sigh*

unfortunately, non-violence has never successfully effected any serious change on the dominant paradigm.

neither has pies or cookies.

are you sure about never? the freedom riders? MLK? Ghandi? international sactions vs. Apartheid?

the Suffragettes were largely non-violent (apart from that racehorse collision but otherwise content to chain themself to stuff)

successfully tested but sadly underfunded & ignored programs whereby innercity kids are involved in sports resulting in significant reductions in local crime (until the programs got canned)

likewise literacy & education programs in prisons helping in successful rehabilitations (again another concept that is largely ignored)

and while things are far from perfect in the UK, the 'troubles' in N.Ireland have not been at anything like the levels they were in the 70s & 80s. i remember the early 80s and seeing shit get blown up pretty much every week either in Ulster or on the mainland. cease-fire anyone?

no. i'm not a pacifist either. i support self defense et al. but to suggest that non-violence never has any effect is a bit lazy (sorry turd - just sayin')

[Cain]

Um he did say the paradigm, so it depends alot on how you view that paradigm.  From an anarchist point of view, for instance, it coudl be said those changes had little effect because the State continued to exist.  Maybe.

[Hoshiko]

I'm more interesting in seeing who survives, and unfortunately, I don't think it'll be the people in the corner with pies and cookies, I think it'll be the people who start the shooting first.

don't you get it? we are approaching a seminal moment in western history. those who sit on their couches (or in front of their computers) watching TV will still be sitting there when the knock at the door comes and the men with guns show up, and by then it'll be too late to stop any of it. If we take the fight to them, right now, we might be able to change things before it's so 1984 that we're all convinced that we've always been at war with Eurasia.

capisce?

I have a problem with this viewpoint. A lot of attrocities have been perpetuated by people with this mindset.

Tell me, Goat: Are you not actually one of these people who sit on the sidelines dreaming of the glory of the fight while everyday, normal people affect most of the change that happens through other channels?

The system sucks but it's not dead, despite the macho postuering that would tell us otherwise. Of course bloodshed and gunplay would be the best thing for this country. Of course it would, and it wouldn't force us to give up the human decency we've managed to scrape up so far, despite those who call for war. Right? It's the pathway to freedom, right?

Aggression begets agression, violence is a merry-go-round that solves nothing. It's simply not effective on a mass level. History has taught us that time and time again, and yet there are still people like you who call for it.

I'm no cookie and pie ELF (not that there's anything wrong with that  :P ), I'm well aware that there needs to be social change. I'm well aware that most people are clueless sheep. But I'm sick of seeing people die in the name of protecting our future when alternatives still exist to us. You're not enslaved yet! No, you're not. Not really. You were given a brain and a voice and an imagination at the very least, and you're squandering them for the illusion of enslavement!

1984 was a good lesson. It's a possible future, one that most of us have considered with dread. A watermark of where we don't want to go. And lately, it's also served as an excuse for extremeists whose real desire is for bloodshed in any form. I know the type well, many of my early years were spent in the company of militias, self-proclaimed armies of the people. They make no real change, because they're still trapped in the idea that theirs is the only way, that things are so far gone that the only alternative is to kill everything that moves.

It's a projection. 1984 was written in the spirit of "Change before it's too late, before your lives become pawns of the government." It's not an excuse to create more wholesale slaughter. One who calls for such an approach is no better than Nationalists who promote an us against them attitude in the name of country. Your methods are the same, your results will be the same. There are other ways, there are people fighting and making headway. You're not one of them.

You've skipped a pretty damn big step.

[East Coast Hustle]

*sigh*

unfortunately, non-violence has never successfully effected any serious change on the dominant paradigm.

neither has pies or cookies.

are you sure about never? the freedom riders? MLK? Ghandi? international sactions vs. Apartheid?

the Suffragettes were largely non-violent (apart from that racehorse collision but otherwise content to chain themself to stuff)

successfully tested but sadly underfunded & ignored programs whereby innercity kids are involved in sports resulting in significant reductions in local crime (until the programs got canned)

likewise literacy & education programs in prisons helping in successful rehabilitations (again another concept that is largely ignored)

and while things are far from perfect in the UK, the 'troubles' in N.Ireland have not been at anything like the levels they were in the 70s & 80s. i remember the early 80s and seeing shit get blown up pretty much every week either in Ulster or on the mainland. cease-fire anyone?

no. i'm not a pacifist either. i support self defense et al. but to suggest that non-violence never has any effect is a bit lazy (sorry turd - just sayin')

you misunderstood what I said...I said that non-violence has never effected any serious change on the dominant paradigm. Totally different, bro, because in the grand scheme of things, MLK and Ghandi didn't really change shit.

[East Coast Hustle]

I'm more interesting in seeing who survives, and unfortunately, I don't think it'll be the people in the corner with pies and cookies, I think it'll be the people who start the shooting first.

don't you get it? we are approaching a seminal moment in western history. those who sit on their couches (or in front of their computers) watching TV will still be sitting there when the knock at the door comes and the men with guns show up, and by then it'll be too late to stop any of it. If we take the fight to them, right now, we might be able to change things before it's so 1984 that we're all convinced that we've always been at war with Eurasia.

capisce?

I have a problem with this viewpoint. A lot of attrocities have been perpetuated by people with this mindset.

Tell me, Goat: Are you not actually one of these people who sit on the sidelines dreaming of the glory of the fight while everyday, normal people affect most of the change that happens through other channels?

The system sucks but it's not dead, despite the macho postuering that would tell us otherwise. Of course bloodshed and gunplay would be the best thing for this country. Of course it would, and it wouldn't force us to give up the human decency we've managed to scrape up so far, despite those who call for war. Right? It's the pathway to freedom, right?

Aggression begets agression, violence is a merry-go-round that solves nothing. It's simply not effective on a mass level. History has taught us that time and time again, and yet there are still people like you who call for it.

I'm no cookie and pie ELF (not that there's anything wrong with that  :P ), I'm well aware that there needs to be social change. I'm well aware that most people are clueless sheep. But I'm sick of seeing people die in the name of protecting our future when alternatives still exist to us. You're not enslaved yet! No, you're not. Not really. You were given a brain and a voice and an imagination at the very least, and you're squandering them for the illusion of enslavement!

1984 was a good lesson. It's a possible future, one that most of us have considered with dread. A watermark of where we don't want to go. And lately, it's also served as an excuse for extremeists whose real desire is for bloodshed in any form. I know the type well, many of my early years were spent in the company of militias, self-proclaimed armies of the people. They make no real change, because they're still trapped in the idea that theirs is the only way, that things are so far gone that the only alternative is to kill everything that moves.

It's a projection. 1984 was written in the spirit of "Change before it's too late, before your lives become pawns of the government." It's not an excuse to create more wholesale slaughter. One who calls for such an approach is no better than Nationalists who promote an us against them attitude in the name of country. Your methods are the same, your results will be the same. There are other ways, there are people fighting and making headway. You're not one of them.

You've skipped a pretty damn big step.

bah. So much quicker and easier to just exterminate those who insist on the further stepfordization of the proles. I like to think of it as "immediate darwinism".

[East Coast Hustle]

sorry about the triple-post, but I believe that you had a question for me, yoiz?

[Cain]

What yoiz was interested in is here, I think http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4029

[Hoshiko]

bah. So much quicker and easier to just exterminate those who insist on the further stepfordization of the proles. I like to think of it as "immediate darwinism".

And as I keep telling you, I am one of those proles. And every time you use that word, you draw attention to the fact that so are you.

I ain't stepfordized, and most of the "proles" I know aren't either, despite appearances.

In fact, it's the proles who carry the weight of power on their backs. This government's downfall will be that it's begun to underestimate them, not threat of extermination by the NSRA.

Your downfall would be the same but quicker.

As for your "plan": Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[East Coast Hustle]

one key difference.

old boss = some idiot from texas.

new boss = me!

I like new boss better.

[Hoshiko]

That's you. I prefer neither.

You can't tell me that your first rule of business wouldn't be to install various poultry-based weapons on the roof of every building.

[East Coast Hustle]

you try to make it sound like that'd be a bad thing...

[Hoshiko]

Like I said, ineffective.

You have to think bigger. Like melons and cabbage.

And possibly VW buses.

[Cain]

I'm more interesting in seeing who survives, and unfortunately, I don't think it'll be the people in the corner with pies and cookies, I think it'll be the people who start the shooting first.

don't you get it? we are approaching a seminal moment in western history. those who sit on their couches (or in front of their computers) watching TV will still be sitting there when the knock at the door comes and the men with guns show up, and by then it'll be too late to stop any of it. If we take the fight to them, right now, we might be able to change things before it's so 1984 that we're all convinced that we've always been at war with Eurasia.

capisce?

I have a problem with this viewpoint. A lot of attrocities have been perpetuated by people with this mindset.

Tell me, Goat: Are you not actually one of these people who sit on the sidelines dreaming of the glory of the fight while everyday, normal people affect most of the change that happens through other channels?

The system sucks but it's not dead, despite the macho postuering that would tell us otherwise. Of course bloodshed and gunplay would be the best thing for this country. Of course it would, and it wouldn't force us to give up the human decency we've managed to scrape up so far, despite those who call for war. Right? It's the pathway to freedom, right?

Aggression begets agression, violence is a merry-go-round that solves nothing. It's simply not effective on a mass level. History has taught us that time and time again, and yet there are still people like you who call for it.

I'm no cookie and pie ELF (not that there's anything wrong with that  :P ), I'm well aware that there needs to be social change. I'm well aware that most people are clueless sheep. But I'm sick of seeing people die in the name of protecting our future when alternatives still exist to us. You're not enslaved yet! No, you're not. Not really. You were given a brain and a voice and an imagination at the very least, and you're squandering them for the illusion of enslavement!

1984 was a good lesson. It's a possible future, one that most of us have considered with dread. A watermark of where we don't want to go. And lately, it's also served as an excuse for extremeists whose real desire is for bloodshed in any form. I know the type well, many of my early years were spent in the company of militias, self-proclaimed armies of the people. They make no real change, because they're still trapped in the idea that theirs is the only way, that things are so far gone that the only alternative is to kill everything that moves.

It's a projection. 1984 was written in the spirit of "Change before it's too late, before your lives become pawns of the government." It's not an excuse to create more wholesale slaughter. One who calls for such an approach is no better than Nationalists who promote an us against them attitude in the name of country. Your methods are the same, your results will be the same. There are other ways, there are people fighting and making headway. You're not one of them.

You've skipped a pretty damn big step.

Its a good point.  I dislike violence.  Alot.  Been there, done that, got the scars and occasional nightmares to prove it.

However, there is a problem.  At the moment, things are really fucked up.

Yes, it has been worse.  But look at it this way, the normal scocietal, cultural-religious factors no longer exist for alot of people.  Those past methods of social engineering and control no longer work, so the State has to fall back on one basic principle, which has served it since the dawn of time, violence.

And so we end up in a situation where we have laws, but they dont serve the people.  We have soldiers carrying out orders, but they are all the wrong ones.  We have secret police and talk of rooting out plots and the thing is even if there are no plots to beggin with, there soon will be.

And the law should be with the people, the State is meant to be for the protection of people against outer and inner threats.  Partly idealistic,but that is its most basic interpretation. And so the state itself has become the  enemy, guardian turned jailer.  And it wont give up the hold it has.  OK, none of that was particulary new.

But this may be.  OK, so the ELF has its methods.  It can help people get "out of their minds" (to use the Neurocam phrase).  But what does that do?  Liberation in the self, for sure, but what good is that freedom while living under a tyrant?

And if that is kept up, sooner or later the state will act first. The number of people affected will reach a critical mass, where it will be a threat. And thats the chance, right there.  Chance for success of a sort, or a mass failure.  An uprising, rather than a revolution.

And thats why we need both methods.  The state cannot be defeated without the use of violence, be it in a limited fashion or otherwise.  And this can include using its own violence against itself, in the media coverage.  This can take the form of systems attacks (like I mentioned in the Patriot Act III thread).  It can even be traditional guerrilla/insurgent tactics.

Both are needed.  Without the violence, the ELF labours will be for nothing.  Without the ELF, there will be no revolt, no uprising at all,just a few malcontents to be hunted down.