An Epistle to Them that got Ears.

[East Coast Hustle]

Like I said, ineffective.

You have to think bigger. Like melons and cabbage.

And possibly VW buses.

I'll have to get my boy to build a bigger trebuchet, but I'd be SO down to launch VW busses off of rooftops....especially if they're still full of stinky hippies...

[Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy]

I still say, make some pies, make some cookies, tell people how evil marriage really is.  Don't get married unless you have kids.  Make love, not war, but you gotta use a condom now.  And there is nothing wrong with incense, it makes me feel happy.  Now they have to have a word for it, aroma therapy.  I am waiting for psychological therapy to be called therapy therapy.  For crying out loud, if something makes you feel good it is not automatically 'therapy', it is just good sense.  Anyway, why are we trying tp put ourselves, each other, and the perceived 'others' in a box, anyway.  Goat, you are the worst at this and I am not sure why.  And how many people can you claim to have helped take the blinders off.  I know I have helped my two best friends immensely, especially with personal issues in particular and life in general.  I suspect I have helped many others, but people pass through your life for reasons and you don't always keep track of them.  I also know I have tried to help many others, but the little bit of light that came in when I tried to pull the blinders off made them scream.  Most of the people I have tried to help have been women, for some reason with men it just ends up as sex.  I may have fucked some sense into some of them, but let's just let that be for now.  One of the biggest obstacles to helping women is abuse.  First you have to realise that one out of four(these stats are old, Bella may have more recent ones)females are sexually abused before they hit 18.  That is 25%.  That fucks up everything, depending on the severity and length of the abuse.  I know that many of the women that I tried to help, but could not, were not able to get past the guilt, pain, secretive nature of the abuse.  I also know I have helped some women get past these kind of issues.  If someone learned about felatio from their grandfather, you are going to be a lot more likely to lure them in with cookies.  They need cookies and tea.  They need to cry and learn to trust.  They have a lot of crap to go through before they can even give a shit about humanity.  You are in the place you are doing the things you do best.  Please try to not assume that when you see a person with a plate of cookies that all they have to offer is a plate of cookies.  WE HAVE PIE TOO.  HAHAHAHAHAAA!!!(and a beer for Goat )



PS I have no idea where this all came from, but I think it's nap time      

[Cain]

Its impressive in an off-topic-yet-on-topic way.  And in its strange structure...

[Hoshiko]

Its a good point.  I dislike violence.  Alot.  Been there, done that, got the scars and occasional nightmares to prove it.

However, there is a problem.  At the moment, things are really fucked up.

Yes, it has been worse.  But look at it this way, the normal scocietal, cultural-religious factors no longer exist for alot of people.  Those past methods of social engineering and control no longer work, so the State has to fall back on one basic principle, which has served it since the dawn of time, violence.

And so we end up in a situation where we have laws, but they dont serve the people.  We have soldiers carrying out orders, but they are all the wrong ones.  We have secret police and talk of rooting out plots and the thing is even if there are no plots to beggin with, there soon will be.

And the law should be with the people, the State is meant to be for the protection of people against outer and inner threats.  Partly idealistic,but that is its most basic interpretation. And so the state itself has become the  enemy, guardian turned jailer.  And it wont give up the hold it has.  OK, none of that was particulary new.

But this may be.  OK, so the ELF has its methods.  It can help people get "out of their minds" (to use the Neurocam phrase).  But what does that do?  Liberation in the self, for sure, but what good is that freedom while living under a tyrant?

And if that is kept up, sooner or later the state will act first. The number of people affected will reach a critical mass, where it will be a threat. And thats the chance, right there.  Chance for success of a sort, or a mass failure.  An uprising, rather than a revolution.

And thats why we need both methods.  The state cannot be defeated without the use of violence, be it in a limited fashion or otherwise.  And this can include using its own violence against itself, in the media coverage.  This can take the form of systems attacks (like I mentioned in the Patriot Act III thread).  It can even be traditional guerrilla/insurgent tactics.

Both are needed.  Without the violence, the ELF labours will be for nothing.  Without the ELF, there will be no revolt, no uprising at all,just a few malcontents to be hunted down.

I never said that violence should never come into play. It's a last step, one you take when you've exhausted all other alternatives and they've got you backed into a corner. One that you take when it will minimize human suffering and loss in the future. One you implement when it'll get you somewhere, and it's not one you get stupid about or jump to. Now is not that time, and when I see someone spouting off 1984 quotes in the name of perpetuating violence against a current "police state", I think questioning their motives is a given.

People are tired of seeing those they know and love die. There's been alot of killing lately, alot of death. Because of that, they won't fight and die for any cause, no matter how angry they are. Brute force helps no one in a situation like ours.

The most difficult task in any form of mass change, any uprising, is convincing the masses. You win their hearts and minds. You negotiate change from within. In this you're right, the ELF aspect is necessary, and right now I would say it's essential. People won't die, but if you change them from within they might live for a cause, and in that scenario change is infective. It spreads.

We're at that step, still. Even after all this time. You can fight in many ways, and violence is the easiest. It takes the least amount of finesse and skill. It's the least effective. It's wrong to underestimate people's anger, but it's worse to give them the wrong outlet at the wrong time. That's why movements fizzle out. You have to give ideas time to spread, time to seep into the mass consciousness and take root. Then you defend that position with gorrila techniques if necessary. And you do it in a smart way, a tactical way.

That's violence at it's most effective, and how violence should be used. It's also not the method GOAT was talking about. I hate to see someone with obvious ability stuck in that way of thinking. Like I said, I'm not an ELF. I try to use my anger to promote change, a sort of mental violence. People are malleable in certain ways and I try to use that. I'm not afriad of the blood and guts technicalities, but I don't get excited about them, either. I see alot of that here, and even if it's all talk it has power. It attracts weakness.

I'm 100% for the idea of using both aspects. But I'm dead-set against the concept of violence first, of forced change. It just doesn't work. We're not there yet.

I think that in this we are in agreement.

[Hoshiko]

One of the biggest obstacles to helping women is abuse. First you have to realise that one out of four(these stats are old, Bella may have more recent ones)females are sexually abused before they hit 18. That is 25%. That fucks up everything, depending on the severity and length of the abuse. I know that many of the women that I tried to help, but could not, were not able to get past the guilt, pain, secretive nature of the abuse. I also know I have helped some women get past these kind of issues. If someone learned about felatio from their grandfather, you are going to be a lot more likely to lure them in with cookies. They need cookies and tea. They need to cry and learn to trust. They have a lot of crap to go through before they can even give a shit about humanity. You are in the place you are doing the things you do best. Please try to not assume that when you see a person with a plate of cookies that all they have to offer is a plate of cookies. WE HAVE PIE TOO. HAHAHAHAHAAA!!!(and a beer for Goat  )

Women's rights is a whoooole 'nother issue, and there's currently a backlash against it. It feels like we're fight some of the same old ground, over and over again.

However, it's still a good example of how movements can succeed given time and patience.

[Cain]

I think that in this we are in agreement.

So do I, oddly enough.  Sorry for saying that you said violence should never come into play, I should have read your post better.  I do believe it is necessary, however it is part of the closing gambit.  Any sooner and it falls apart, for far to many reasons.  I suggest looking at the system attack method I was talking about too.  That fourth generation style warfare, like guerrilla style, but taken to an economic level.  It also aims against infrastructure rather than civilains or soldiers, and is more effective in many respects (try http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/ for reading)

I think perhaps Turd was trying to get at the point that it only ever seems to be about the ELF stance.  OK, so we are not a stage where violence can be permitted, yet.  However, there does need to be discussion about it.  

Which I just realised is what we are doing now.

Duh!

[Mangrove]

time and patience.

the magic words.

[agent compassion]

OK, so the ELF has its methods. It can help people get "out of their minds" (to use the Neurocam phrase). But what does that do? Liberation in the self, for sure, but what good is that freedom while living under a tyrant?

Here's the thing - right now there's a dance going on, it's been going on since the beginning when power was discovered and used by one person against another. The oppressed become the oppressors because that is all they know. Turd, you may think "new boss = me" and see no problem with that, but try to understand why some of us do and it's nothing against you personally, but rather this: Oppression gets internalised. In each and every one of us lives an angry little dictator just waiting for its day in the sun.
Say you did suddenly have power tomorrow. What would happen? You'd go nuts and make the same mistakes every other powerful person has made. Empires always fall, ALWAYS, because the people at the top all have the same mental model they're operating from that says that:

There's always a top, there's always a bottom, and the ones at the bottom serve to make the ones at the top happy, and if they don't, they're fishfood.

As long as any of us operates under that model, it won't matter who is on top, because they'll be acting out that same old story and they'll become just as bad as whoever they were originally rebelling against.

Which is where mental liberation comes in. You have to get out of the mindset of power=tyranny BEFORE you seek power, so that you do not become your own enemy.

[East Coast Hustle]

keep in mind that some of you are starting to take me WAY too literally.

did anyone seriously think I was advocating installing myself as some sort of Uber-Emperor of the World? If you ask me, that sounds like just about the worst job in the world.

honestly? I'd be willing to fight until I was the last man for nothing more grandiose than a position as Head of Customs. That'd be the slick shit...

[agent compassion]

keep in mind that some of you are starting to take me WAY too literally.

did anyone seriously think I was advocating installing myself as some sort of Uber-Emperor of the World? If you ask me, that sounds like just about the worst job in the world.

Well, you're the only one who really talks about such things with frequency....it's easier to write in specifics, and you're pretty darn specific.

But I hear ya. Power's not all it's cracked up to be, and the smarter folks stay the hell away from it generally. I've had nightmares where I was elected to Congress.....icky...there's an assumption that if you study politics, it's so you can be a politician...far from it. I mean in my class I sat next to a chick who wanted to be a Whip and another who wanted to be President and here I am going "well, that's nice but I don't want all that responsibility and people digging into my past." I'm a very private person and it's not worth it to me to have that kind of weight to throw around if I can't even take a shit without someone blogging it - the highest I'd be interested in going would be Secretary of State, because they get to oversee elections, which I *am* interested in. Very. And they only get in the news when there's an election going on - the rest of the time, they get left alone.

[Cain]

Which is where mental liberation comes in. You have to get out of the mindset of power=tyranny BEFORE you seek power, so that you do not become your own enemy.

Very true.  The thing is, I dont seek power.  I really dont.  Well, maybe, but not in the traditional way.  I seek power over myself, maybe as a consequence of getting very deep into martial arts.  But that sort of power is never my aim.  "He who dies with the most shiny toys is still dead."  

And there needs to be a balance.  The ELF sets the pieces into motion.  It does the groundwork, plants the seeds, etc  The LDD is the end product, both  the LDD and ELF are necessary to each other.  One without the other courts total failure.  That was the point that may have been lost in what I was saying earlier.  And we need a dialogue on both too, if anything is to be done.

[East Coast Hustle]

"He who dies with the most shiny toys is still dead."  

true, but he sure did have a lot of neat shiny toys to play with while he was alive...

[Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy]

keep in mind that some of you are starting to take me WAY too literally.

You take yourself pretty seriously, or at least you appear to.  You also take others too literally.  Why else would you get mad over pies, cookies and flirting?  If you don't have that stuff, there is nothing to fight for.
Pies, cookies, beer and sex.  Or was it sex drugs rock and roll.  I think I'm getting old.  oh well, not too old, though.  I think I'll go make some cookies

[Chef]

keep in mind that some of you are starting to take me WAY too literally.

You take yourself pretty seriously, or at least you appear to.  You also take others too literally.  Why else would you get mad over pies, cookies and flirting?  If you don't have that stuff, there is nothing to fight for.
Pies, cookies, beer and sex.  Or was it sex drugs rock and roll.  I think I'm getting old.  oh well, not too old, though.  I think I'll go make some cookies

THA COOKIE AND PIE SHIT IS AMMOYING, IN THE SAME WAY THAT HAVING A GNAT FLYING IN AND OUT OF YOUR EAR IS.

AND WE ALL KNOW THAT THA BUZZING OF THAT GNAT IS USUALLY THA LAST THING A PSYCHO HEARS BEFORE HE FIRES UP THA CHAINSAW.

CHEF D,
NEEDS A CHAINSAW.

[bananas are good]

I want some cookies.