Consider this:
The average life span in the United States is around 77 years. Now, this sometimes seems like an immense amount of time, given the way the seasons seem to pass, so slowly.
However, multiply that by 365 and you get the number of days, roughly 29 thousand. Given that I've lived around 24.5 years, I've passed through around 8950 days. And I have around 20 thousand days left. Thats all.
20 thousand days....thats it? Thats all? It makes this life feel that much shorter. And every day that passes where I am depressed or uninspired is a day wasted.
FOR FUCKS SAKE, the universe has been kind or serendipitous to grant me, the emergent property of some 100 billion neurons, 50 trillion cells, and 7 octillion atoms, 8.4 kj/day, not only life but a mind to consider the present moment, the history of this present moment, and my own place in it and the future. Every day where I am not inspired, where I am not learning and growing, helping and inspiring others, enjoying the wonders of this universe and having deep pleasure in just being alive, those are days wasted.
No more wasted days. No more. Enough. I only have 20 thousand left.
you forgot to subtract the time one spends fapping...
now you only have 10 thousands :eek:
other then that, it was a good read
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on April 11, 2010, 09:59:13 PM
you forgot to subtract the time one spends fapping...
now you only have 10 thousands :eek:
other then that, it was a good read
Maybe YOU spend half your days fapping.
On the other hand, why does fapping subtract?
I don't consider mild/moderate depression to be a waste.
Severe depression yes, but I'm pretty sure mild/moderate depression is just your brain on overdrive to help you solve your problems faster.
Did you know that part of the chemical shift in a depressed brain actually protects it while it's overclocked?
And that a large amount of people have measurably improved analytical skills when they're depressed?
Don't sell yourself short, a mild/moderately depressed brain is a remarkable thing.
Quote from: Kai on April 11, 2010, 10:49:32 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on April 11, 2010, 09:59:13 PM
you forgot to subtract the time one spends fapping...
now you only have 10 thousands :eek:
other then that, it was a good read
Maybe YOU spend half your days fapping.
On the other hand, why does fapping subtract?
I thought I was giving a conservative estimate
:cry:
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on April 11, 2010, 11:07:00 PM
I don't consider mild/moderate depression to be a waste.
Severe depression yes, but I'm pretty sure mild/moderate depression is just your brain on overdrive to help you solve your problems faster.
Did you know that part of the chemical shift in a depressed brain actually protects it while it's overclocked?
And that a large amount of people have measurably improved analytical skills when they're depressed?
Don't sell yourself short, a mild/moderately depressed brain is a remarkable thing.
No.
See, I'm not going for being super successful, or brilliant, or genius, or savior, whatever the hell those are.
I'm going for, if I'm not living the hell out of life, if I'm not appreciating, if I'm not aware, then I'm fucking wasting it. Might as well be in a coma.
Also, I wish I could punch you over the Internet.
Quote from: Kai on April 11, 2010, 11:41:49 PM
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on April 11, 2010, 11:07:00 PM
I don't consider mild/moderate depression to be a waste.
Severe depression yes, but I'm pretty sure mild/moderate depression is just your brain on overdrive to help you solve your problems faster.
Did you know that part of the chemical shift in a depressed brain actually protects it while it's overclocked?
And that a large amount of people have measurably improved analytical skills when they're depressed?
Don't sell yourself short, a mild/moderately depressed brain is a remarkable thing.
No.
See, I'm not going for being super successful, or brilliant, or genius, or savior, whatever the hell those are.
I'm going for, if I'm not living the hell out of life, if I'm not appreciating, if I'm not aware, then I'm fucking wasting it. Might as well be in a coma.
Also, I wish I could punch you over the Internet.
Sorry if I stepped on your toes. Why exactly do you want to punch me through the interbutts?
Your OP just sounded to me like bliss ninnies who eschew any sort of "negative" mood. The numbers are interesting but I think your premises are flawed.
Downtime is important for ideas to stew, even if on the surface of things it just looks like depression or lack of inspiration.
Depression ≠ lack of growth and learning, it's also connected with deep growth and learning, unless it's quite severe. There's a lot of new evidence coming out to support this.
Happiness ≠ growth and learning, it's also connected to being comfortably wedged in a worldview and ignoring whatever challenges it.
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on April 12, 2010, 07:32:54 AM
Depression ≠ lack of growth and learning, it's also connected with deep growth and learning, unless it's quite severe. There's a lot of new evidence coming out to support this.
Happiness ≠ growth and learning, it's also connected to being comfortably wedged in a worldview and ignoring whatever challenges it.
:cn:
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 12, 2010, 09:13:08 AM
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on April 12, 2010, 07:32:54 AM
Depression ≠ lack of growth and learning, it's also connected with deep growth and learning, unless it's quite severe. There's a lot of new evidence coming out to support this.
Happiness ≠ growth and learning, it's also connected to being comfortably wedged in a worldview and ignoring whatever challenges it.
:cn:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/12/the-science-of-success/7761/
http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr05/realism.aspx
edit: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=depressions-evolutionary
I think what is probably most important is being able to look back and say "Yeah, I'm glad I bothered." Even with the depressing bits etc.
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on April 12, 2010, 07:32:54 AM
Your OP just sounded to me like bliss ninnies who eschew any sort of "negative" mood. The numbers are interesting but I think your premises are flawed.
Downtime is important for ideas to stew, even if on the surface of things it just looks like depression or lack of inspiration.
Yes that may be true. But you are missing the point of his post entirely. Hence the desire for punching.
Sure you can look back at "downtime" and say it was important for new ideas to stew.
But you can ALSO look back and say "NO MORE! I WILL EAT THE FUCK OUT OF THAT CHEESEBURGER NOW!! AND TOMORROW TOO!".
The two are not mutually exclusive.
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on April 12, 2010, 07:32:54 AM
Quote from: Kai on April 11, 2010, 11:41:49 PM
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on April 11, 2010, 11:07:00 PM
I don't consider mild/moderate depression to be a waste.
Severe depression yes, but I'm pretty sure mild/moderate depression is just your brain on overdrive to help you solve your problems faster.
Did you know that part of the chemical shift in a depressed brain actually protects it while it's overclocked?
And that a large amount of people have measurably improved analytical skills when they're depressed?
Don't sell yourself short, a mild/moderately depressed brain is a remarkable thing.
No.
See, I'm not going for being super successful, or brilliant, or genius, or savior, whatever the hell those are.
I'm going for, if I'm not living the hell out of life, if I'm not appreciating, if I'm not aware, then I'm fucking wasting it. Might as well be in a coma.
Also, I wish I could punch you over the Internet.
Sorry if I stepped on your toes. Why exactly do you want to punch me through the interbutts?
Your OP just sounded to me like bliss ninnies who eschew any sort of "negative" mood. The numbers are interesting but I think your premises are flawed.
Downtime is important for ideas to stew, even if on the surface of things it just looks like depression or lack of inspiration.
Depression ≠ lack of growth and learning, it's also connected with deep growth and learning, unless it's quite severe. There's a lot of new evidence coming out to support this.
Happiness ≠ growth and learning, it's also connected to being comfortably wedged in a worldview and ignoring whatever challenges it.
"It's about APPRECIATION. You don't have to like it to appreciate it."
Also, me, a bliss ninny? O.o
If everyone manages to somehow live the hell out of life then who cleans all the toilets?
Don't just clean that toilet, CLEAN THE HELL OUT OF IT!
See how easy that is?
Whatever you're doing, or "have" to do, TAKE IT TO THE FUCKING WALL!
Be in the moment, love what you're doing, whatever it is.
I don't know, sounds like a placebo :roll:
I enjoyed the OP, but will refrain from further comment for fear of being punched.
Quote from: h-town on April 12, 2010, 06:44:24 PM
I don't know, sounds like a placebo :roll:
Your MOTHER sounds like a placebo.
I've often contemplated how sort my life looks in days. And I think spending a night alone with that realisation is important.
But Ne+@uNGr0+ has an excellent point. The downs have utility as well, and will always occur. Best to figure out how to live with them, rather than in contradiction to them.
Quote from: h-town on April 12, 2010, 06:44:24 PM
I don't know, sounds like a placebo :roll:
It's a damn powerful placebo though, dude.
But I find we're being fed the idea from an early age that looking after your surroundings, going to work, and school is haaaaard. Think about it, you can make anything feel like a chore. Why not the reverse? :)
Quote from: Number_6 on April 12, 2010, 07:17:38 PM
I've often contemplated how sort my life looks in days.
Nobody cares. Seriously.
Life got you down? We got a placebo for that.
Don't like placebos? We got a placebo for that, too.
Quote from: h-town on April 12, 2010, 07:21:03 PM
Life got you down? We got a placebo for that.
Don't like placebos? We got a placebo for that, too.
I prefer horrible drugs, thanks. They make a pill for that.
Quote from: Number_6 on April 12, 2010, 07:17:38 PM
It's a damn powerful placebo though, dude.
But I find we're being fed the idea from an early age that looking after your surroundings, going to work, and school is haaaaard. Think about it, you can make anything feel like a chore. Why not the reverse? :)
(http://i38.tinypic.com/2nauteg.gif)
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 12, 2010, 07:27:14 PM
Quote from: h-town on April 12, 2010, 07:21:03 PM
Life got you down? We got a placebo for that.
Don't like placebos? We got a placebo for that, too.
I prefer horrible drugs, thanks. They make a pill for that.
GRABBIN PILLS.
Quote from: LMNO on April 12, 2010, 07:39:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 12, 2010, 07:27:14 PM
Quote from: h-town on April 12, 2010, 07:21:03 PM
Life got you down? We got a placebo for that.
Don't like placebos? We got a placebo for that, too.
I prefer horrible drugs, thanks. They make a pill for that.
GRABBIN PILLS.
What's funny is that it's true. :lulz:
As a depressed person, I would say it's better to find a reason to gtfo the couch, no matter how "bliss ninny" one might appear, than to find a rationalization for why depression isn't so bad. I've also found my mood improving since I stopped constantly focusing on the negative and instead emphasizing the positive. If that makes me a "bliss ninny" then I don't care because it makes me better able to function. So yeah, I understand the impulse to punch.
Quote from: h-town on April 12, 2010, 06:44:24 PM
I don't know, sounds like a placebo :roll:
How do you suppose?
If you make an effort to enjoy the things you have to do, how is that a placebo in any way?
Kind of off topic, but I'm curious your reasoning.
Also, RE: bliss ninny: That's fucking retarded. Being cheerful is more productive than thinking about how much life sucks.
Quote from: h-town on April 12, 2010, 06:44:24 PM
I don't know, sounds like a placebo :roll:
It's your life, man. If being miserable is your thing, go for it.
Hold the phone.. who said anything about being miserable? I didn't necessarily disagree either.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 12, 2010, 07:51:56 PM
Quote from: h-town on April 12, 2010, 06:44:24 PM
I don't know, sounds like a placebo :roll:
It's your life, man. If being miserable is your thing, go for it.
Well, then, state your case.
Quote from: h-town on April 12, 2010, 08:01:32 PM
Hold the phone.. who said anything about being miserable? I didn't necessarily disagree either. Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 12, 2010, 07:51:56 PM
Quote from: h-town on April 12, 2010, 06:44:24 PM
I don't know, sounds like a placebo :roll:
It's your life, man. If being miserable is your thing, go for it.
Well, to be honest I find that kind of philosophical outlook to be a placebo in many ways, albeit a good spirited one and not at all a bad thing to do. I guess that I understand that there is a myriad potentiality for enjoyment in every particle of reality and there is an element of active joy in enjoying the things you do. However, my point wasn't that it's impossible to enjoy cleaning toilets but that there is an element of ignoring those who clean toilets in living life to the fullest. Fear of death or fear of a meaningless life compels people to strive for better because cleaning toilets as a vocation is not ideal.
It's really more of a placebo for those who don't have to clean toilets as a vocation. Like, If you're a toilet bowl cleaner who doesn't clean toilets with purpose and contentment: your fault.
Not trying to be defiant, just sayin.
Quote from: h-town on April 12, 2010, 08:15:37 PM
Well, to be honest I find that kind of philosophical outlook to be a placebo in many ways, albeit a good spirited one and not at all a bad thing to do. I guess that I understand that there is a myriad potentiality for enjoyment in every particle of reality and there is an element of active joy in enjoying the things you do. However, my point wasn't that it's impossible to enjoy cleaning toilets but that there is an element of ignoring those who clean toilets in living life to the fullest. Fear of death or fear of a meaningless life compels people to strive for better because cleaning toilets as a vocation is not ideal.
It's really more of a placebo for those who don't have to clean toilets as a vocation. Like, If you're a toilet bowl cleaner who doesn't clean toilets with purpose and contentment: your fault.
Not trying to be defiant, just sayin.
I disagree, and you DO have the right to be as defiant as you please. This isn't communism, after all.
There's no point in being miserable about conducting necessary tasks. Since Slack™ is the art of
enjoying the ride, then you should probably try to enjoy whatever it is you have to do. Obviously, this isn't always possible...But when it is, you should try it. There's no point grumbling. Unless you're me. And you don't want to be me.
You're mistaking "living life to the fullest" with "only doing stuff that is enjoyable". Part of life is cleaning the toilets.
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 12, 2010, 08:22:04 PM
You're mistaking "living life to the fullest" with "only doing stuff that is enjoyable". Part of life is cleaning the toilets.
And if you're lucky, they give you a brush.
Quote from: LMNO on April 12, 2010, 08:24:41 PM
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 12, 2010, 08:22:04 PM
You're mistaking "living life to the fullest" with "only doing stuff that is enjoyable". Part of life is cleaning the toilets.
And if you're lucky, they give you a brush.
In Utah, you have to use your bottom lip.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 12, 2010, 08:21:10 PM
Quote from: h-town on April 12, 2010, 08:15:37 PM
Well, to be honest I find that kind of philosophical outlook to be a placebo in many ways, albeit a good spirited one and not at all a bad thing to do. I guess that I understand that there is a myriad potentiality for enjoyment in every particle of reality and there is an element of active joy in enjoying the things you do. However, my point wasn't that it's impossible to enjoy cleaning toilets but that there is an element of ignoring those who clean toilets in living life to the fullest. Fear of death or fear of a meaningless life compels people to strive for better because cleaning toilets as a vocation is not ideal.
It's really more of a placebo for those who don't have to clean toilets as a vocation. Like, If you're a toilet bowl cleaner who doesn't clean toilets with purpose and contentment: your fault.
Not trying to be defiant, just sayin.
I disagree, and you DO have the right to be as defiant as you please. This isn't communism, after all.
There's no point in being miserable about conducting necessary tasks. Since Slack™ is the art of enjoying the ride, then you should probably try to enjoy whatever it is you have to do. Obviously, this isn't always possible...But when it is, you should try it. There's no point grumbling. Unless you're me. And you don't want to be me.
I'm not entirely satisfied with how I'm getting my point across and I do blame myself.
No one envisions themselves cleaning toilets when they are living life to the fullest especially in comparison to heiresses, advanced theoretical neurosurgeons, conceptual artists, or even fringe video store clerks if that's their thing, etc. Considering that very few people strive to clean toilets (which, to be honest, in itself suggests creepy mental disorder) then this means people are mostly delegated to clean toilets. There is a base assumption at play where person x is either above cleaning toilets or too busy in some other important capacity to clean the toilet themselves. My point is that there is something to grumble about in being the person who usually cleans the toilets because it's dishonest and academic at best to suggest this position is favourable or as I said above "If you don't know how to enjoy cleaning toilets: your fault." No one wants their kids to be toilet bowl cleaners.
Toilet bowl cleaning is really just an analogy for people who have to do things that other people don't want to do. I was initially trying to be coy instead of insightful.
I think I get it. It's not that you're saying, "what about when your toilet bowl gets dirty in your apartment."
You're saying (I think), "The world has a huge amount of terrible jobs that someone has to do. To tell them to shut up and enjoy it sounds kind of like a placebo that the people who don't have terrible jobs say to make themselves feel better."
Is that about right?
I spent the last year living check to check, working a part time job. I cut corners on car repairs, laundry, and did most of my shopping in the discount section. At first, it really got to me. I felt impotent, like I was missing out on my calling. Every time you turn on the TV you see money money money, and I got none.
Over time, I learned to re-frame my situation. it's not because I'm a failure as a human, it's that practically NOBODY had a job in the year 2009. I began to conceptualize of myself as a Discordian Monk, somebody living a monastic, ascetic lifestyle. By denying myself the pleasures of capitalism, I learned to better appreciate my down time and be comfortable with myself.
It wasn't an easy path, but at least I didn't feel trapped by my life. I learned to embrace my situation and take something valuable from it.
So personally, I think there is something to be said for making the best of what you've got, and embracing it, even if it's a toilet bowl.
Quote from: Cramulus on April 12, 2010, 08:52:39 PM
I spent the last year living check to check, working a part time job. I cut corners on car repairs, laundry, and did most of my shopping in the discount section. At first, it really got to me. I felt impotent, like I was missing out on my calling. Every time you turn on the TV you see money money money, and I got none.
Very few people do. The TV says they do, by inference, and that is deliberately designed to
1. Make you spend more than you have, keeping up with the Joneses, and
2. Make you feel inadequate, so you'll be more inclined to be a productive little drone that doesn't ask for a raise, etc.
Yeah, the most important thing I got from the concept of the BIP is that it isn't the materials of your existence but what you do with them that makes your life worth living. If you have your choices limited to what kind of dirt you sleep on, you can either wallow in filth or make sculptures out of mud.
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 12, 2010, 08:58:15 PM
Yeah, the most important thing I got from the concept of the BIP is that it isn't the materials of your existence but what you do with them that makes your life worth living. If you have your choices limited to what kind of dirt you sleep on, you can either wallow in filth or make sculptures out of mud.
Or to change your situation, if possible, by SEEING THAT IT'S POSSIBLE.
If God gives you lemons,
get a new God.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 12, 2010, 08:59:16 PM
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 12, 2010, 08:58:15 PM
Yeah, the most important thing I got from the concept of the BIP is that it isn't the materials of your existence but what you do with them that makes your life worth living. If you have your choices limited to what kind of dirt you sleep on, you can either wallow in filth or make sculptures out of mud.
Or to change your situation, if possible, by SEEING THAT IT'S POSSIBLE.
If God gives you lemons, get a new God.
Exactly. And depression is like blinders to the possibility of a better existence.
Quote from: LMNO on April 12, 2010, 08:47:29 PM
I think I get it. It's not that you're saying, "what about when your toilet bowl gets dirty in your apartment."
You're saying (I think), "The world has a huge amount of terrible jobs that someone has to do. To tell them to shut up and enjoy it sounds kind of like a placebo that the people who don't have terrible jobs say to make themselves feel better."
Is that about right?
Yup, I wasn't being clear that way.
Quote from: Cramulus on April 12, 2010, 08:52:39 PM
I spent the last year living check to check, working a part time job. I cut corners on car repairs, laundry, and did most of my shopping in the discount section. At first, it really got to me. I felt impotent, like I was missing out on my calling. Every time you turn on the TV you see money money money, and I got none.
Over time, I learned to re-frame my situation. it's not because I'm a failure as a human, it's that practically NOBODY had a job in the year 2009. I began to conceptualize of myself as a Discordian Monk, somebody living a monastic, ascetic lifestyle. By denying myself the pleasures of capitalism, I learned to better appreciate my down time and be comfortable with myself.
It wasn't an easy path, but at least I didn't feel trapped by my life. I learned to embrace my situation and take something valuable from it.
So personally, I think there is something to be said for making the best of what you've got, and embracing it, even if it's a toilet bowl.
I've been in this position before and worse and it can get depressing if you let it. What I find interesting is that not letting the situation bother you as though it identifies you actually, eventually, elevates you above it and it's like reality rewards you materially with not getting bogged down by circumstance.
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 12, 2010, 07:45:24 PM
As a depressed person, I would say it's better to find a reason to gtfo the couch, no matter how "bliss ninny" one might appear, than to find a rationalization for why depression isn't so bad. I've also found my mood improving since I stopped constantly focusing on the negative and instead emphasizing the positive. If that makes me a "bliss ninny" then I don't care because it makes me better able to function. So yeah, I understand the impulse to punch.
As a formerly clinically depressed person, I've found that positivity blinders can be helpful, but primarily if it gives you the strength to look at hideous truths. For me, I had to reconcile some extremely difficult social problems. I'm not going into the details because it's long and complex. But by ruminating on them I eventually found solutions and took actions that vastly improved my life. It took quite a while and I did have professional assistance, but the breakthroughs were worth the months of patiently stewing in blue solitude. I had been subjected to all sorts of pills that did nothing to help me deal with shit and wasted the better part of my time in high school. I don't think most people's depression arises from a simple chemical imbalance, (that may be one factor and/or an effect from your situation) I think usually it arises from living with fucking monkeys who make life difficult, or that YOU are the monkey making your life difficult.
In extreme cases the medication can pull you back to a place where you can deal with your shit, but in most situations I think this medicalization and rejection of "negativity" is bliss ninny horsecrap which is used to buy pharmaceutical salesmen new cars and new age self-help snakes more coke. Here dissidents, take some happy drugs or just stay "positive" so you don't get pissed off/sad/uncomfortable enough to do anything about your personal problem, let alone the institutionalized raping of the globe.
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 12, 2010, 09:02:41 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 12, 2010, 08:59:16 PM
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 12, 2010, 08:58:15 PM
Yeah, the most important thing I got from the concept of the BIP is that it isn't the materials of your existence but what you do with them that makes your life worth living. If you have your choices limited to what kind of dirt you sleep on, you can either wallow in filth or make sculptures out of mud.
Or to change your situation, if possible, by SEEING THAT IT'S POSSIBLE.
If God gives you lemons, get a new God.
Exactly. And depression is like blinders to the possibility of a better existence.
Bollocks.
Depression may be the jet fuel to get you through bat country.
Double bollocks, all depression does is sap away all energy. Sadness, yes. Anger, yes. Pain, yes. But depression is the absence of any emotion, a deadening of the brain, a lifeless gray cell that cuts a person off from life. Depression is never going to be "jet fuel" because all it does is allow someone to get through the day, one day at a time. You're full of shit.
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 12, 2010, 09:34:07 PM
Double bollocks, all depression does is sap away all energy. Sadness, yes. Anger, yes. Pain, yes. But depression is the absence of any emotion, a deadening of the brain, a lifeless gray cell that cuts a person off from life. Depression is never going to be "jet fuel" because all it does is allow someone to get through the day, one day at a time. You're full of shit.
:cn:
edit: I thought I was adding a reply but I modified this one by mistake.
http://depression.about.com/cs/diagnosis/a/mdd.htm
This disorder is characterized by the presence of the majority of these symptoms:
- Depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). (In children and adolescents, this may be characterized as an irritable mood.)
- Markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day
- Significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5 of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day.
- Insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day
- Psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day
- Fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day
- Feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt nearly every day
Diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day
- Recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide.
So, wait. Net's position is that depression fills you with energy?
What? :lulz:
I struggled with depression for a long time, and still do just not to the same degree or intensity.
Depression, for me, was the stripping away of motivation and supression of emotion. Motivation because I was unwilling to allow myself to be hurt, and emotion because I was unable to deal with any form of strong emotion "positive" or "negative". I wasn't ever really sad, I wasn't ever really happy. Or angry, or loving, or hateful. I had plastic masks that I could wear to simulate these things, but I remained unmoved deep down.
I had enough left to see me through the day and most of the night when I couldn't sleep. And it was all the same day and all the same night.
When I dreamt, the dreams would horrify and disturb me. And I didn't need to be asleep to dream them.
I would drown my unquiet mind in booze or another form of escapism, and have likely done some damage to myself both physically and mentally. In the span of my lifetime this period does not amount to very much at all, but the effects will remain with me for a very long time.
It is only after a long and hard journey upwards and out of this mess that I am in any way able to appreciate the lessons or to get any kind of sense of being kicked in the ass.
No, depression in itself did nothing for me and was not an untapped source of creativity or anything like that. Not when my very core was a lumpen, static, mass with no forward momentum. The depression might well be more useful to me now that I got some momentum going, but the sheer hell of it was not a price worth paying.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 12, 2010, 09:44:49 PM
So, wait. Net's position is that depression fills you with energy?
What? :lulz:
I think he's taking the same stance as LHX did in Pipe Bombs (http://www.blackironprison.com/index.php?title=Pipe_Bombs)
Quoteim gonna also propose that the 'positive' shrapnel is NOT ALWAYS accidental
i know some people that when they go thru foul shit - they reach for the pen
and the bomb they assemble is MEANT to turn that negative situation into something that people can touch / feel / use
at the very least - for me personally - when the difficulty of situations gets amped up - when im catching too much of the bullshit shrapnel - i seek to re-affirm the alliances i have made in the past and touch base with my foundation
in the process i benefit and look to approach the situation in ways that others can benefit as well
you can only build a brick shit house if you shit your hate properly
tl;dr - Some incredible art has emerged from depression
see also: Picasso's Blue Period
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/84/OldGuitaristLady.jpg)
I dunno. i'm kinda addicted to my emotional pain. Everyday that feels good without feeling bad is really strange to me.
But i like the bad feeling. Suicidal depression is sweet. like joy? i dunno. Aren't all emotions sweet?
Quote from: nerinamakani on April 12, 2010, 10:09:53 PM
I dunno. i'm kinda addicted to my emotional pain. Everyday that feels good without feeling bad is really strange to me.
But i like the bad feeling. Suicidal depression is sweet. like joy? i dunno. Aren't all emotions sweet?
Hang on, I'm too busy crying mascara to reply.
Quote from: Cramulus on April 12, 2010, 09:52:45 PM
tl;dr - Some incredible art has emerged from depression
On one hand I wrote almost an entire viola sonata (- corrections and the last half of the 4th movement) during my last manic attack.
On the other hand I would trade it back so not to go through that hell again
I think most cases of mild/moderate depression have positive byproducts that may outweigh the negatives.
Part of the depressive cycle is to remove yourself from socializing, which is not always a negative thing. It allows you to focus on your problem uninterrupted so you can solve it.
There also is evidence that part of the "chemical imbalance" of depression allows the brain to think more deeply for longer periods of time by protecting it from the otherwise damaging effects of having your brain on overdrive. That's what I meant by "jet fuel."
The fatigue and lack of motivation doesn't mean that your brain isn't working constructively on an unconscious level to find solutions to your problem. It doesn't necessarily mean it IS either, but if the depression isn't severe, you may consider embracing depression as a feature of your biology, not something that is holding you back. It may be a useful adaptation that is being overly medicalized and stigmatized for financial gain.
I'm not saying that depression can't go wrong and be more damaging than helpful. But I find my mild/moderate depressive episodes to assist me through problems rather than make them more difficult. I don't think depression ought to be regarded as NECESSARILY bad. On the extreme end, I agree there is little constructive possibility, and extreme measures such as temporary positivity blinders can be useful.
Temporarily.
Otherwise, this categorical rejection of "negativity" and downtime strikes me as Bliss Ninny territory.
How come every time I say I like emotional pain it becomes an emo thing?
I'm an emotional masochist.
ooooOOOOooooH! Out there!
Quote from: nerinamakani on April 12, 2010, 10:56:27 PM
How come every time I say I like emotional pain it becomes an emo thing?
I'm an emotional masochist.
ooooOOOOooooH! Out there!
I'm calling "aini".
No you are.
Didn't you ever like being in pain? It's not like I sit around whining about my peers all day and wishing it were different. I just like being sad.. It's not really something I can change. Wouldn't if I could, actually.
And isn't that the second time you've used that comment?
On the same subject?
just curious
Quote from: nerinamakani on April 12, 2010, 11:07:16 PM
No you are.
Didn't you ever like being in pain?
No. You seem to have "pain" confused with "angst".
if you enjoy it then it's not really pain is it?
I think it's still pain. I mean it feels like pain. But it is pleasurable.
So..both?
That's masochism for you. I like physical pain to.
I think I programmed myself to find sensing things in general to be pleasurable. Probably as a defense mechanism.
Doctor howl, I think perhaps you are typecasting and being a little unimaginative. That's just my opinion though.
Quote from: nerinamakani on April 13, 2010, 02:30:54 AM
I think it's still pain. I mean it feels like pain. But it is pleasurable.
So..both?
That's masochism for you. I like physical pain to.
I think I programmed myself to find sensing things in general to be pleasurable. Probably as a defense mechanism.
Doctor howl, I think perhaps you are typecasting and being a little unimaginative. That's just my opinion though.
Have a heart attack and get back to me on that, lightweight.
This is a dumb derail that distracts from the fact that Net thinks depression is beneficial.
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 13, 2010, 02:38:13 AM
This is a dumb derail that distracts from the fact that Net thinks depression is beneficial.
Not derailed. Still kind of laughing about that.
I AM A ROCK
I AM AN ISLAND
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 13, 2010, 02:38:13 AM
This is a dumb derail that distracts from the fact that Net thinks depression is beneficial.
I think some depression does have beneficial aspects that outweigh the negatives, and sometimes the negatives outweigh the positives.
I've experienced both and read reliable sources that confirm it.
Is it your position that all depressive moods confer no benefits to the depressed person?
Or do you think there may be benefits to depressive moods, but they are always outweighed by negative effects of depression?
I actually should comment on this I think... but will do so after the fun ends in other chat... and i decide if i wanna share some experiences here
For me, depression and anxiety is a complete waste of time. It's like a big comfy bed that I want to lay down in and pull the covers over my head and just wait until whatever challenge life throws at me passes by. And that's very dangerous.
The thing is, it's so easy to get depressed. And when I'm depressed, it's so easy to become an unmotivated sluggard. That's not useful at all. Being all melancholy and pensive is one thing, but being in a slump is another.
I remember back in music one of the things which would help via performance is to get yourself in a downer of a mood, even for more upbeat pieces. It would help with the flow, voicing and tone, and it was something discussed quite openingly. One of the problems some would have (including myself) would be coming back from that. One of the reasons a lot of performers you just wouldn't want to talk to after their performance. Both coming down from a high and coming up from a downer mood. There is a correlation I never quite understood until recently. Personally I compose only when I'm feeling like total garbage. But there are others I know that could only compose when they're feeling relaxed and good.
So short answer.. depends on the person. There's an obvious link between creative out letting and mood and I think that's what Net was getting at.
Does it make it good or bad, well that again depends on the person. If your one that has to go into a mood that is generally negative and you have a hard time coming back then it would probably be a bad thing. Again depends on the individual. Can't really paint it with one brush, like this is how people generally be creative.
AND A ROCK FEELS NO PAIN
AND AN ISLAND NEVER CRIES
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2010, 04:57:39 AM
AND A ROCK FEELS NO PAIN
AND AN ISLAND NEVER CRIES
FFS, I HAD TO READ THOSE AWFUL LYRICS IN SOPHOMORE ENGLISH, I'M NOT PREPARED TO DO IT AGAIN.
QuoteI think some depression does have beneficial aspects that outweigh the negatives,
For you.Quoteand sometimes the negatives outweigh the positives.
For you.QuoteI've experienced both and read reliable sources that confirm it.
It's nice that you've found sources to support your
anecdotal evidence. I haven't had the chance to read all of them but one at least had far more to do about good parenting and genetics on the population level than the benefits of depression.
QuoteIs it your position that all depressive moods confer no benefits to the depressed person?
Being in a depressive mood is not the same as being a depressed person.
QuoteOr do you think there may be benefits to depressive moods, but they are always outweighed by negative effects of depression?
There might be.
For you. However, your anecdotal evidence belies everything I've ever experienced and have had related to me by other depressed people. And since
most people don't seem to benefit at all from depression, giving them "reliable sources" that seem to suggest they shouldn't be fighting against it, when depression is the siren call to maintaining the status quo and never making any effort, is in my opinion a terrible idea.
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 13, 2010, 05:29:53 AM
QuoteI've experienced both and read reliable sources that confirm it.
It's nice that you've found sources to support your anecdotal evidence. I haven't had the chance to read all of them but one at least had far more to do about good parenting and genetics on the population level than the benefits of depression.
Normally, I'd mock a poster for rejecting something without reading it. But I like you, Badge, and from your tenor in this thread it sounds like you have or recently have had some serious depression, so I'll continue to cut you some slack.
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 13, 2010, 05:29:53 AM
QuoteOr do you think there may be benefits to depressive moods, but they are always outweighed by negative effects of depression?
There might be. For you. However, your anecdotal evidence belies everything I've ever experienced and have had related to me by other depressed people. And since most people don't seem to benefit at all from depression, giving them "reliable sources" that seem to suggest they shouldn't be fighting against it, when depression is the siren call to maintaining the status quo and never making any effort, is in my opinion a terrible idea.
It's interesting that you're criticizing my experience for being anecdotal by using anecdotal evidence.
I'm not saying
you should stop fighting
your depression in any way that makes sense to
you.
If chanting new age mantras while you shove Kali figurines made of Zoloft up your ass makes you feel whole again, then more power to you.
I'm just saying, hey, here's a thoroughly iconoclastic theory that makes a lot of sense to me; consider using it to live the hell out of your depression.
De-lurking to note that everyone should try this
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on April 13, 2010, 07:11:17 AM
chanting new age mantras while you shove Kali figurines made of Zoloft up your ass
at least once.
And now I have a goal in life.
(still enjoying this series, Kai, and looking forward to the next)
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 12, 2010, 09:02:41 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 12, 2010, 08:59:16 PM
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 12, 2010, 08:58:15 PM
Yeah, the most important thing I got from the concept of the BIP is that it isn't the materials of your existence but what you do with them that makes your life worth living. If you have your choices limited to what kind of dirt you sleep on, you can either wallow in filth or make sculptures out of mud.
Or to change your situation, if possible, by SEEING THAT IT'S POSSIBLE.
If God gives you lemons, get a new God.
Exactly. And depression is like blinders to the possibility of a better existence.
Um, I gotta make an addition to that.
Some depression is like blinders to the possibility of a better existence.
Your depression might have been like that.
It totally can be like that.
But that's really a gross generalization I can't just let slide like that. I've been depressed too, and maybe only a few months in total were like that. But MOST of the time, the years, I've been battling and growing and learning and working and striving
towards that possibility of a better existence. And I felt like shit and it was hard. But I have vowed to myself to NEVER GIVE UP.
Now you can wonder whether this is/was an optimal way of going about it, I don't know, everybody to their own right?
But I sure as hell did not have any "blinders to a better existence" during that time. If anything, my vision was
wide open, looking, reaching out, trying all posibilities to see what might work and have a positive effect. It might not have been fun, but to call it "blinders" is really really selling it short. In fact, I am damn proud of that time when looking back, hung in there and got to where I am now (whereever the fuck that may be) and did not give up. I might have been miserable a good deal of that time, but in a way, I can honestly say that I did my damn best at living life to the fullest, given the cirumstances, the tools and the knowledge I had then and there.
So, yeah. Perhaps a depression is what you make of it. If it makes you feel directionless, all wrapped up in yourself and inert, that's probably bad and you simply need to get out (fortunately if that "brain works in higher gear when depressed" stuff is true, solving the inertness might be easier than it otherwise would have been). But sometimes it's also like rocket fuel burning in your ass: It might make you feel miserable, but you're moving pretty quickly :)
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 12, 2010, 09:43:48 PM
http://depression.about.com/cs/diagnosis/a/mdd.htm
This disorder is characterized by the presence of the majority of these symptoms:
- Depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). (In children and adolescents, this may be characterized as an irritable mood.)
- Markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day
- Significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5 of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day.
- Insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day
- Psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day
- Fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day
- Feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt nearly every day
Diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day
- Recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide.
Yes, but there is a whole list of symptoms there. And you can't say the only "proper" depression is when you experience exactly those few you highlighted, nearly
all the time.
Though that really sucks if you went through that Badge, and I mean that completely.
But I also mean it when I say it's not the same for everyone. You especially can't generalize this:
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 12, 2010, 09:34:07 PM
Double bollocks, all depression does is sap away all energy. Sadness, yes. Anger, yes. Pain, yes. But depression is the absence of any emotion, a deadening of the brain, a lifeless gray cell that cuts a person off from life. Depression is never going to be "jet fuel" because all it does is allow someone to get through the day, one day at a time. You're full of shit.
Absence of any emotion? Yes I KNOW it can be like that. And that's terrible. But it wasn't dead like that for me. It wasn't inert, it was very in fact at times very turbulent and I was fighting every day. Sure it knocked me back on my ass nearly every day too, it sapped away energy every day, it was hard and indeed sometimes all I could do was get through the day, one day at a time. But through my tears and what not I would not let down and fought.
So apparently the complete inertness bit is optional.
And please, I am not saying it is wrong if you experienced it differently. If you say you couldn't, then that is how it was. Maybe you got it worse than I did, I don't know. I do know that mental illnesses like this aren't very clear-cut black/white objective classifications, but vary subjectively from person to person.
I could go on about it, but the bottom line is that it's simply not the same experience for everyone.
Just like your list of symptoms names both "insomnia" and "hypersomnia". You can have one, you can have the other, you can alternate, or you could even hardly have either.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 12, 2010, 09:44:49 PM
So, wait. Net's position is that depression fills you with energy?
What? :lulz:
YES THATS JUST HI LA RI OUS ISNT IT????
What is
actually funny, is how I wrote my previous post before reading Net's "Jet Fuel" remark. I said rocket fuel. Though Net forgot to mention the exhaust is in your ass and it hurts.
I'm not saying it fills you with energy. That's ridiculous. On the whole I had only a fraction of the energy I have these days (which is also not a lot). Still, it burns pretty bright in some places.
However, Net is describing something quite similar to what I experienced. Something I wouldn't wish on anyone. Yet something that can also not be described as "wasted years". Something I am proud of the way I handled and got out of. Something that might actually be described as living life to the fullest, given the little I had at that moment, not materially but in my head, and with the little amount of energy. So maybe I was lucky that I wasn't completely emotionally paralyzed all the time. But at times that emotional will-power was the only thing I had: I
will get through this, I will find a way out, I will get up again, I will just try again, et cetera.
Just like that list of symptoms lists suicide. I never considered it. Well, the thought might have surfaced (like anyone, right?), but it always immediately seemed patently ridiculous. There is so much to live for! And certainly, this must be one of the more shittier parts, right, so it can only get better.
You know, in that aspect, we come full-circle back to Kai's OP.
What pulled me through was the fascination with life. I wanted (and still want) to see it all, live as long as possible. You see, you can also turn those numbers in Kai's OP around. Realize it's quite a lot of days in fact. That there is a lot of time left for the rest of your life, all those bright days after this downtime, and I wanted to get there, really bad.
Okay, we can all agree that all this shit is subjective. :|
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 13, 2010, 09:03:15 AM
Okay, we can all agree that all this shit is subjective. :|
Great, then maybe you could stop saying shit like this:
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 13, 2010, 05:29:53 AMAnd since most people don't seem to benefit at all from depression,
Forgive me for not e-priming that enough.
Okay, fine. There appears to be an issue of semantics. When I talk about depression I'm talking about the severe kind, that lasts for years and is very nearly living death. You and Net seem to be talking about something not quite so relentlessly and unendingly horrible. I've never been blessed by the latter, so it seems like a magical unicorn of impossibility and probably not at all the same thing since it doesn't apparently involve thoughts of suicide and months of incapacitation. If only I could be so lucky as to be occasionally afflicted by a bad mood instead of struggling to carry on day-to-day activities like feeding and dressing myself for months on end.
woah, didn't see this last night.
Depression, for me, is not "down time". It's not being a little sad. Depression is struggling to even live, like a psychological exhaustion. And it's crippling.
Kudos to those who don't experience it. You miss out on nothing.
Maybe van Gogh wouldn't have made so many paintings, but I'm sure antidepressants would have done him a world of good. Fuck you for selfishly coveting his art over his own well being.
Also, yesterday I cleaned the hell outta my toilet. I had a hell of a lot of appreciation for how dirty it can get, and how clean it looks when I finished. All in all it wasn't an experience wasted.
for more information, cf. Dirty Jobs. Especially the episode about the guy who works for the Madison Metropolitan Sewarage, cleaning out septic tanks.
I have suffered heavy depression and it ruined my life for many years. So it was shit.
After the depression my life has been better than before the depression. So it's not all negative.
The outcome can be positive product made from negative material.
I don't think I've ever had Depression (capital D), but I'm sure I've been depressed (lowercase d).
My brother, on the other hand, has been Depressed (capital D). And it was horrific.
Almost an entire year spent in his basement studio apartment with the shade drawn on only window. Bottle of whiskey strewn about the floor, the smell of rank sweat and stale cigarettes, unwashed sheets and half-eaten food stuck to dishes tossed in the general direction of the sink.
He was a musician, one of the more creative guitarists I have known, and in that period of time, his musical output was exactly ZERO.
So, anectdotes. Here's another.
I can understand whoever said that they create when they're depressed. When I get depressed (lowercase d), I also seem to find myself at the computer or with a guitar, writing music. But the creativity doesn't come because I'm depressed. The depression makes me want to avoid everything that's happening in my life, it makes me want to disengage, and escape. When I'm creating, I shut out the entire world. I can do it when I'm not depressed, too; it's just when I'm depressed, it's easier to shut things out than it is to engage the real world, and its problems.
So, anectdotes.
Quote from: Kai on April 13, 2010, 12:34:40 PM
Maybe van Gogh wouldn't have made so many paintings, but I'm sure antidepressants would have done him a world of good. Fuck you for selfishly coveting his art over his own well being.
yeahhhhhh well its not like I know the guy
is this a "fuck you" to me specifically? or to everybody that likes van gogh's blue period?
This is clearly a very emotional topic, and a lot of people are marginalizing or dismissing other people's experiences, which is kind of insensitive. And apparently liking art made by people who were depressed is incredibly selfish too. So I'm just going to baaaack awaaaay.
(http://www.winostuff.com/Pictures/chirac.jpg)
Quote from: Cramulus on April 13, 2010, 02:45:58 PM
Quote from: Kai on April 13, 2010, 12:34:40 PM
Maybe van Gogh wouldn't have made so many paintings, but I'm sure antidepressants would have done him a world of good. Fuck you for selfishly coveting his art over his own well being.
yeahhhhhh well its not like I know the guy
is this a "fuck you" to me specifically? or to everybody that likes van gogh's blue period?
This is clearly a very emotional topic, and a lot of people are marginalizing or dismissing other people's experiences, which is kind of insensitive. And apparently liking art made by people who were depressed is incredibly selfish too. So I'm just going to baaaack awaaaay.
Nahh. Fuck you to Net. He's the one who called me a "bliss ninny".
I don't think he did, actually. I think he used the term to describe what he thought of as an attitude that was counterproductive in the long run and you let your ego get in the way of seeing what he was trying to say. Don't feel bad, though, you certainly weren't the only one ITT who was guilty of that.
I really have no opinion on the OP because I've never really been depressed, but I do have an opinion on kneejerk reactions and peoples' tendency to marginalize any viewpoint on a subject that isn't in line with their own.
There's a little known book called Neurotic Distortion of the Creative Process by a little known psychologist named Lawrence Kubie. In it he examines why it is that those of a depressed mindset appear to have a higher creative output. It's been a few years since I read it, but I recall his argument being that creativity and depression can be correlated but aren't inextricably linked. The brightly burning moments of clarity within what is understood to be a depressive cloud might really be creativity making the beautiful more clear in the mind without necessarily altering the rest, and it's the juxtaposition that makes it seem like a depressed state.
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 13, 2010, 10:09:07 AM
Okay, fine. There appears to be an issue of semantics. When I talk about depression I'm talking about the severe kind, that lasts for years and is very nearly living death. You and Net seem to be talking about something not quite so relentlessly and unendingly horrible. I've never been blessed by the latter, so it seems like a magical unicorn of impossibility and probably not at all the same thing since it doesn't apparently involve thoughts of suicide and months of incapacitation. If only I could be so lucky as to be occasionally afflicted by a bad mood instead of struggling to carry on day-to-day activities like feeding and dressing myself for months on end.
There's loads of different kinds and there's loads of different people dealing with it in loads of different ways and getting loads of different types of therapy and/or drugs.
Such are the woes of the DSM-IV.
Let's not one-up one another on severity.
though I don't think anybody counts "occasionally afflicted by a bad mood" as a depression (certainly not any physician). that's being depressed. it's also kind of condescending to compare whatever I went through as a blessing, magical or being lucky. regardless of whether it's really real depression for realness or not. i can understand my description probably pales in comparison to what you know you went through. but I didn't tell you the whole story. I don't like to talk about it, or rather to dig up all the memories. Though even if I did, you probably had it worse anyway from the sound of it. Doesn't matter. Still not cool to say that.