http://www.salon.com/news/ground_zero_mosque/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2010/08/16/ground_zero_mosque_origins
Quote– Dec. 8, 2009: The Times publishes a lengthy front-page look at the Cordoba project. "We want to push back against the extremists," Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the lead organizer, is quoted as saying. Two Jewish leaders and two city officials, including the mayor's office, say they support the idea, as does the mother of a man killed on 9/11. An FBI spokesman says the imam has worked with the bureau. Besides a few third-tier right-wing blogs, including Pamela Geller's Atlas Shrugs site, no one much notices the Times story.
– Dec. 21, 2009: Conservative media personality Laura Ingraham interviews Abdul Rauf's wife, Daisy Khan, while guest-hosting "The O'Reilly Factor" on Fox. In hindsight, the segment is remarkable for its cordiality. "I can't find many people who really have a problem with it," Ingraham says of the Cordoba project, adding at the end of the interview, "I like what you're trying to do."
– (This segment also includes onscreen the first use that we've seen of the misnomer "ground zero mosque.") After the segment — and despite the front-page Times story — there were no news articles on the mosque for five and a half months, according to a search of the Nexis newspaper archive.
– May 6, 2010: After a unanimous vote by a New York City community board committee to approve the project, the AP runs a story. It quotes relatives of 9/11 victims (called by the reporter), who offer differing opinions. The New York Post, meanwhile, runs a story under the inaccurate headline, "Panel Approves 'WTC' Mosque." Geller is less subtle, titling her post that day, "Monster Mosque Pushes Ahead in Shadow of World Trade Center Islamic Death and Destruction." She writes on her Atlas Shrugs blog, "This is Islamic domination and expansionism. The location is no accident. Just as Al-Aqsa was built on top of the Temple in Jerusalem." (To get an idea of where Geller is coming from, she once suggested that Malcolm X was Obama's real father. Seriously.)
So basically Pam Geller and Rupert Murdoch purposefully distorted the facts and got a gaggle of idiots on the blogosphere and in the national press respectively to spread their disinfo in a blind panic about the "sacred ground" of 9/11 being despoiled by the villainous Mohammedans. No surprise there, though confirmation is nice, as always.
And today, Harry Reid joined Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20013773-503544.html) in calling for the "mosque" (actually a community centre) to be built elsewhere, presumably because he doesn't want to be left out on the irrational Islamophobia the right are buying into wholesale right now (with the notable, though not unexpected exception of Grover Norquist (http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/weigel/archive/2010/08/16/norquist-mosque-obsession-will-hurt-gop.aspx) who, despite a fair bit of stupidity on a lot of other issues, is highly respectful of other religions).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Mosque already there, and will now be sharing its land with the community center?
I know there is at least one mosque in the area, closer to Ground Zero than the community centre, so it seems likely.
Also, irony: the reason Cordoba House has such a strong position re: local government in getting this approved is not because of their secret Zionist Islamist conspiracy, but because the Religious Right got a law passed in 2000 that gave religious organizations greater standing in potential disputes with local planning agencies.
It's all bullshit for fundies to scream about while getting free press. Shame on the media.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 17, 2010, 02:38:55 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Mosque already there, and will now be sharing its land with the community center?
No. This is a brand new building. It is a cultural/community center that would include a mosque but also have a 9/11 memorial and facilities for all denominations to use.
There is a mosque that already exists that is about 4 blocks away, which nobody has made a fuss about. The new one would be about 2 blocks away. And when you are standing there, you can't actually see Ground Zero. And the only way you're going to be able to see this Community Center from Ground Zero is if they build a big, tall, ugly building on top of it, that is like 30 or 40 stories, and then if you go to the top of this building you'll be able to see the community center, kinda.
After watching the news and seeing what all was in the surrounding area, it is obvious to me that these people do not want anything there (mosque, community center, etc..) that will interfere with the bars and strip clubs. How can you have a good strip club with normal family type human beings walking around? I mean seriously, they will nice up the neighborhood.
New Yorker here
Most new yorkers I speak to are baffled that the rest of the country suddenly cares about how NYC downtown is zoned.
Is the red ink on your NEVER FORGET bumper sticker going to fade any faster if there's a mosque two blocks from ground zero?
Are you suddenly going to become less patriotic because muslims follow the same rules for building a place of worship as the rest of us?
It really makes me want to protest some churches being built. How insensitive to build a church! because some christians did some bad things once! I HAVE A RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED AND THAT TRUMPS YOUR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT?
Not only another New Yorker, but a 9/11 survivor... I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion. Let 'em build. Everyone knows the TRUE terrorists live on the Upper East Side and work on Wall Street.
Quote from: Cramulus on August 17, 2010, 02:42:13 PM
New Yorker here
Most new yorkers I speak to are baffled that the rest of the country suddenly cares about how NYC downtown is zoned.
Is the red ink on your NEVER FORGET bumper sticker going to fade any faster if there's a mosque two blocks from ground zero?
Are you suddenly going to become less patriotic because muslims follow the same rules for building a place of worship as the rest of us?
It really makes me want to protest some churches being built. How insensitive to build a church! because some christians did some bad things once! I HAVE A RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED AND THAT TRUMPS YOUR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT?
Quote from: Apikoros II on August 17, 2010, 02:45:45 PM
Not only another New Yorker, but a 9/11 survivor... I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion. Let 'em build. Everyone knows the TRUE terrorists live on the Upper East Side and work on Wall Street.
This is what gets me riled up. It's a New York City issue that should be decided by New York City. A certain group of politicians seem to think that New York, and specifically Ground Zero, are nothing more than a rallying cry or banner for their own stupid agenda. Fuck what New Yorkers think.
They will tell
you how you should react to the community center being built.
They will tell everyone how
you feel about it. If New Yorkers say, or want, something that contradicts their message then it's not just about you. It's about our God-blessed country, goddamnit! Except that it has nothing to do with our country. Once you exit the city limits of New York, it's none of your damn business. It bothers me that they silence New Yorkers because what New Yorkers want in their own city is unimportant compared to what the rest of the country, most of which will never even get near New York, want. It bothers me that New Yorkers mean absolutely nothing to these people. Unless, of course, they're killed or almost killed in an attack. Then they have free reign to rape the thoughts or memories of New Yorkers since, y'know, they can't contradict what the politicians are preaching.
Bloomberg (who I am not the biggest fan of, I should admit) did and said the right things about this situation:
http://manhattan.ny1.com/content/top_stories/122239/bloomberg-repeatedly-defends-mosque-by-wtc-site
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/politics&id=7564369
Quote from: Aucoq on August 17, 2010, 03:16:28 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on August 17, 2010, 02:42:13 PM
New Yorker here
Most new yorkers I speak to are baffled that the rest of the country suddenly cares about how NYC downtown is zoned.
Is the red ink on your NEVER FORGET bumper sticker going to fade any faster if there's a mosque two blocks from ground zero?
Are you suddenly going to become less patriotic because muslims follow the same rules for building a place of worship as the rest of us?
It really makes me want to protest some churches being built. How insensitive to build a church! because some christians did some bad things once! I HAVE A RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED AND THAT TRUMPS YOUR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT?
Quote from: Apikoros II on August 17, 2010, 02:45:45 PM
Not only another New Yorker, but a 9/11 survivor... I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion. Let 'em build. Everyone knows the TRUE terrorists live on the Upper East Side and work on Wall Street.
This is what gets me riled up. It's a New York City issue that should be decided by New York City.
Absolutely. Even Geert fucking Wilders is coming over there to speak about it, you know? :roll:
Quote from: Aucoq on August 17, 2010, 03:16:28 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on August 17, 2010, 02:42:13 PM
New Yorker here
Most new yorkers I speak to are baffled that the rest of the country suddenly cares about how NYC downtown is zoned.
Is the red ink on your NEVER FORGET bumper sticker going to fade any faster if there's a mosque two blocks from ground zero?
Are you suddenly going to become less patriotic because muslims follow the same rules for building a place of worship as the rest of us?
It really makes me want to protest some churches being built. How insensitive to build a church! because some christians did some bad things once! I HAVE A RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED AND THAT TRUMPS YOUR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT?
Quote from: Apikoros II on August 17, 2010, 02:45:45 PM
Not only another New Yorker, but a 9/11 survivor... I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion. Let 'em build. Everyone knows the TRUE terrorists live on the Upper East Side and work on Wall Street.
This is what gets me riled up. It's a New York City issue that should be decided by New York City.
Absolutely. Even Geert fucking Wilders is coming over there to speak about it, you know? :roll:
Quote from: Cramulus on August 17, 2010, 02:42:13 PM
New Yorker here
Most new yorkers I speak to are baffled that the rest of the country suddenly cares about how NYC downtown is zoned.
Is the red ink on your NEVER FORGET bumper sticker going to fade any faster if there's a mosque two blocks from ground zero?
Are you suddenly going to become less patriotic because muslims follow the same rules for building a place of worship as the rest of us?
It really makes me want to protest some churches being built. How insensitive to build a church! because some christians did some bad things once! I HAVE A RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED AND THAT TRUMPS YOUR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT?
^^ This ^^ Reflects my thoughts. I remember quite well back when TWC incident happened how many 'religious' people swore that, well, NYC deserved such a thing and that 'they' had it coming.
Quote from: Ruby on August 17, 2010, 06:26:57 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on August 17, 2010, 02:42:13 PM
New Yorker here
Most new yorkers I speak to are baffled that the rest of the country suddenly cares about how NYC downtown is zoned.
Is the red ink on your NEVER FORGET bumper sticker going to fade any faster if there's a mosque two blocks from ground zero?
Are you suddenly going to become less patriotic because muslims follow the same rules for building a place of worship as the rest of us?
It really makes me want to protest some churches being built. How insensitive to build a church! because some christians did some bad things once! I HAVE A RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED AND THAT TRUMPS YOUR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT?
^^ This ^^ Reflects my thoughts. I remember quite well back when TWC incident happened how many 'religious' people swore that, well, NYC deserved such a thing and that 'they' had it coming.
...Because Gays & feminists were allowed to exist.
I bet you were one of the people thinking or saying that.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 17, 2010, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: Ruby on August 17, 2010, 06:26:57 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on August 17, 2010, 02:42:13 PM
New Yorker here
Most new yorkers I speak to are baffled that the rest of the country suddenly cares about how NYC downtown is zoned.
Is the red ink on your NEVER FORGET bumper sticker going to fade any faster if there's a mosque two blocks from ground zero?
Are you suddenly going to become less patriotic because muslims follow the same rules for building a place of worship as the rest of us?
It really makes me want to protest some churches being built. How insensitive to build a church! because some christians did some bad things once! I HAVE A RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED AND THAT TRUMPS YOUR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT?
^^ This ^^ Reflects my thoughts. I remember quite well back when TWC incident happened how many 'religious' people swore that, well, NYC deserved such a thing and that 'they' had it coming.
...Because Gays & feminists were allowed to exist.
I bet you were one of the people thinking or saying that.
No, jackass, I was one of the ones that cried for days because of the devastation.
Quote from: Ruby on August 17, 2010, 06:37:14 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 17, 2010, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: Ruby on August 17, 2010, 06:26:57 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on August 17, 2010, 02:42:13 PM
New Yorker here
Most new yorkers I speak to are baffled that the rest of the country suddenly cares about how NYC downtown is zoned.
Is the red ink on your NEVER FORGET bumper sticker going to fade any faster if there's a mosque two blocks from ground zero?
Are you suddenly going to become less patriotic because muslims follow the same rules for building a place of worship as the rest of us?
It really makes me want to protest some churches being built. How insensitive to build a church! because some christians did some bad things once! I HAVE A RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED AND THAT TRUMPS YOUR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT?
^^ This ^^ Reflects my thoughts. I remember quite well back when TWC incident happened how many 'religious' people swore that, well, NYC deserved such a thing and that 'they' had it coming.
...Because Gays & feminists were allowed to exist.
I bet you were one of the people thinking or saying that.
No, jackass, I was one of the ones that cried for days because of the devastation.
Yeah, I bet.
I think it's more likely, given your disdain for Gays, feminists, and just about everyone else that doesn't live according to your standards, that you were secretly thrilled, and feeling nice and vindicated.
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 17, 2010, 02:57:48 AM
It's all bullshit for fundies to scream about while getting free press. Shame on the media.
I'm not sure if most media is capable of shame.
Quote from: Ruby on August 17, 2010, 06:48:27 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 17, 2010, 02:57:48 AM
It's all bullshit for fundies to scream about while getting free press. Shame on the media.
I'm not sure if most media is capable of shame.
I wasn't talking to you, so STFU.
Or you could always just confine all your disdainful hate to ATTN: RUBY instead of corrupting every thread posted.
Dok, to keep this thread from the infestation can this crap be moved to the other thread?
Quote from: Ruby on August 17, 2010, 06:54:39 PM
Or you could always just confine all your disdainful hate to ATTN: RUBY instead of corrupting every thread posted.
Or not.
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 17, 2010, 07:01:29 PM
Dok, to keep this thread from the infestation can this crap be moved to the other thread?
She's sort of on topic. If the thread author wants it moved, I'll do it. Otherwise, it stays.
Dok,
Benevolent Tyrant of this "Ruled-Roost Board".
Tyrannical Bastard.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 17, 2010, 07:36:25 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 17, 2010, 07:35:04 PM
Tyrannical Bastard.
DEAL WITH IT, CITIZEN!
:lord:
You brought this on yourself. You forced me to get help.
http://www.princepoppycock.com/fr_poppycock.cfm
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 17, 2010, 07:40:55 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 17, 2010, 07:36:25 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 17, 2010, 07:35:04 PM
Tyrannical Bastard.
DEAL WITH IT, CITIZEN!
:lord:
You brought this on yourself. You forced me to get help.
http://www.princepoppycock.com/fr_poppycock.cfm
HAH! WEBSENSE SAVES TEH DAY!
Dammit.
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 17, 2010, 07:46:51 PM
Dammit.
If we tyrants were so easily defeated, we wouldn't be tyrants in the first place.
If George goes out to slay the dragon, he'd best be prepared for the dragon to have other ideas. :lulz:
You will look when you get home, and then you will hate me forever.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-17/ground-zero-mosque-controversy-america-has-disgraced-itself/
QuoteRemember when George W. Bush and his neoconservative allies used to say that the "war on terror" was a struggle on behalf of Muslims, decent folks who wanted nothing more than to live free like you and me? Remember when Karen Hughes paid millions to produce glitzy videos of Muslim Americans testifying about how free they were to practice their religion in the USA? Remember Bush's second inaugural, when he said "America's ideal of freedom" is "sustained in our national life by the truths of Sinai, the Sermon on the Mount, the words of the Koran?"
Once upon a time, Republicans were so confident that the vast majority of Muslims preferred freedom to jihad that they believed the U.S. could install democracy in Iraq within months. Now, confronted with a group of Muslim Americans who want to build a cultural center that includes Jews and Christians on the board (how many churches and synagogues do that?), GOP leaders call them terrorists because they don't share Benjamin Netanyahu's view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Once upon a time, the "war on terror" was supposed to bring American values to Saudi Arabia. Now Newt Gingrich says we shouldn't build a mosque in Lower Manhattan until the Saudis build churches and synagogues in Mecca—which is to say, we're bringing Saudi values to the United States. I wonder how David Petraeus feels about all this. There he is, slogging away in the Hindu Kush, desperately trying to be culturally sensitive, watching GIs get killed because Afghans believe the U.S. is waging a war on Islam, and back home, the super-patriots on Fox News have... declared war on Islam.
So please, no more talk about those idealistic neoconservatives who are willing to expend blood and treasure so Afghans and Iraqis can live free. People in Basra and Kandahar had better hope that America's counterinsurgency warriors create a society in which they can practice their religion free of intimidation and insult. Because it's now clear they can't do so on the lower tip of the island of Manhattan.
:mittens:
That's some serious fucking ownage there, Cain.
No shit!
Beinart was an idiot for a serious number of years over the past decade, but in the past year or so he's been putting ownage of that quality out once every week or two. He's even written stuff on Israel-Palestine that doesn't make me want to gouge my eyes out, a most impressive feat.
Quote from: Cain on August 17, 2010, 08:21:07 PM
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-17/ground-zero-mosque-controversy-america-has-disgraced-itself/
QuoteRemember when George W. Bush and his neoconservative allies used to say that the "war on terror" was a struggle on behalf of Muslims, decent folks who wanted nothing more than to live free like you and me? Remember when Karen Hughes paid millions to produce glitzy videos of Muslim Americans testifying about how free they were to practice their religion in the USA? Remember Bush's second inaugural, when he said "America's ideal of freedom" is "sustained in our national life by the truths of Sinai, the Sermon on the Mount, the words of the Koran?"
Once upon a time, Republicans were so confident that the vast majority of Muslims preferred freedom to jihad that they believed the U.S. could install democracy in Iraq within months. Now, confronted with a group of Muslim Americans who want to build a cultural center that includes Jews and Christians on the board (how many churches and synagogues do that?), GOP leaders call them terrorists because they don't share Benjamin Netanyahu's view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Once upon a time, the "war on terror" was supposed to bring American values to Saudi Arabia. Now Newt Gingrich says we shouldn't build a mosque in Lower Manhattan until the Saudis build churches and synagogues in Mecca—which is to say, we're bringing Saudi values to the United States. I wonder how David Petraeus feels about all this. There he is, slogging away in the Hindu Kush, desperately trying to be culturally sensitive, watching GIs get killed because Afghans believe the U.S. is waging a war on Islam, and back home, the super-patriots on Fox News have... declared war on Islam.
So please, no more talk about those idealistic neoconservatives who are willing to expend blood and treasure so Afghans and Iraqis can live free. People in Basra and Kandahar had better hope that America's counterinsurgency warriors create a society in which they can practice their religion free of intimidation and insult. Because it's now clear they can't do so on the lower tip of the island of Manhattan.
:mittens:
Bump for the new page. Bolding mine.
Quote from: Cain on August 17, 2010, 08:21:07 PM
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-17/ground-zero-mosque-controversy-america-has-disgraced-itself/
QuoteRemember when George W. Bush and his neoconservative allies used to say that the "war on terror" was a struggle on behalf of Muslims, decent folks who wanted nothing more than to live free like you and me? Remember when Karen Hughes paid millions to produce glitzy videos of Muslim Americans testifying about how free they were to practice their religion in the USA? Remember Bush's second inaugural, when he said "America's ideal of freedom" is "sustained in our national life by the truths of Sinai, the Sermon on the Mount, the words of the Koran?"
Once upon a time, Republicans were so confident that the vast majority of Muslims preferred freedom to jihad that they believed the U.S. could install democracy in Iraq within months. Now, confronted with a group of Muslim Americans who want to build a cultural center that includes Jews and Christians on the board (how many churches and synagogues do that?), GOP leaders call them terrorists because they don't share Benjamin Netanyahu's view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Once upon a time, the "war on terror" was supposed to bring American values to Saudi Arabia. Now Newt Gingrich says we shouldn't build a mosque in Lower Manhattan until the Saudis build churches and synagogues in Mecca—which is to say, we're bringing Saudi values to the United States. I wonder how David Petraeus feels about all this. There he is, slogging away in the Hindu Kush, desperately trying to be culturally sensitive, watching GIs get killed because Afghans believe the U.S. is waging a war on Islam, and back home, the super-patriots on Fox News have... declared war on Islam.
So please, no more talk about those idealistic neoconservatives who are willing to expend blood and treasure so Afghans and Iraqis can live free. People in Basra and Kandahar had better hope that America's counterinsurgency warriors create a society in which they can practice their religion free of intimidation and insult. Because it's now clear they can't do so on the lower tip of the island of Manhattan.
:mittens:
:mittens:
A few years back, I was having a pretty heated discussion over our wonderful wars and the Israel-Palestinian conflict with a conservative Southern Baptist woman (the kind who wants to defend Israel against those subhuman Mooslems and then, once that's done, convert the Jews to Christians). I used the term "crusade" in its general, secular meaning. She jumped all over me for using it because it is a "religiously-charged" word, and the wars aren't about religion. They're about bringing freedom to others! I don't know where she is or what she's doing right now. But I can only hope she's somewhere out there regretting her ignorant stance. (I doubt it.)
It's sad as hell that these people eat up their own hypocritical bullshit. But at least it's out in the open and perfectly clear for everyone to see. The Christian Taliban stands proudly against America and what she stands for.
Yeah, religion plays no part in Israel-Palestine
at all. :lol:
Also, Muslims should suck it up and stop desecrating the hallowed Ground Zero, so the Dems don't lose in November:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-17/the-ground-zero-mosque-litmus-test/
QuoteThe November elections are very close to becoming—if they haven't already so become—the first national elections in the United States whose results are determined by the location of a mosque. Call them, in fact, the "Mosque Elections."
Forget health-care reform and unbridled stimulus spending; forget perceived errors in Iraq and Afghanistan; forget unemployment and our economy's endless night; forget, if you can, the toxic questions of illegal immigration and oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico. If the promoters of the mosque near ground zero do not pack up their Korans and prayer mats within the next week or so, there is every danger that they will cause the Democrats grievous harm in November—in an election that is already one in which the Democrats are bracing for a rout.
Quote from: Cain on August 17, 2010, 09:09:19 PM
Yeah, religion plays no part in Israel-Palestine at all. :lol:
Also, Muslims should suck it up and stop desecrating the hallowed Ground Zero, so the Dems don't lose in November:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-17/the-ground-zero-mosque-litmus-test/
QuoteThe November elections are very close to becoming—if they haven't already so become—the first national elections in the United States whose results are determined by the location of a mosque. Call them, in fact, the "Mosque Elections."
Forget health-care reform and unbridled stimulus spending; forget perceived errors in Iraq and Afghanistan; forget unemployment and our economy's endless night; forget, if you can, the toxic questions of illegal immigration and oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico. If the promoters of the mosque near ground zero do not pack up their Korans and prayer mats within the next week or so, there is every danger that they will cause the Democrats grievous harm in November—in an election that is already one in which the Democrats are bracing for a rout.
I am now weeping for the loss of a nation. My nation.
Like I said the whole thing makes me wanna jump out a window and Im not even American
Quote from: Cain on August 17, 2010, 09:09:19 PM
Yeah, religion plays no part in Israel-Palestine at all. :lol:
Also, Muslims should suck it up and stop desecrating the hallowed Ground Zero, so the Dems don't lose in November:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-17/the-ground-zero-mosque-litmus-test/
QuoteThe November elections are very close to becoming—if they haven't already so become—the first national elections in the United States whose results are determined by the location of a mosque. Call them, in fact, the "Mosque Elections."
Forget health-care reform and unbridled stimulus spending; forget perceived errors in Iraq and Afghanistan; forget unemployment and our economy's endless night; forget, if you can, the toxic questions of illegal immigration and oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico. If the promoters of the mosque near ground zero do not pack up their Korans and prayer mats within the next week or so, there is every danger that they will cause the Democrats grievous harm in November—in an election that is already one in which the Democrats are bracing for a rout.
Argh, we totally deserve shitty leaders. I just hope the republicans that get in are against federal government and I can retreat to a nice liberal enclave and have them leave me the fuck alone.
Common sense on CNN:
QuoteLemon: Don't you think it's a bit different considering what happened on 9/11? And the people have said there's a need for it in Lower Manhattan, so that's why it's being built there. What about 10, 20 blocks . . . Midtown Manhattan, considering the circumstances behind this? That's not understandable?
Patel: In America, we don't tell people based on their race or religion or ethnicity that they are free in this place, but not in that place --
Lemon: [interrupting] I understand that, but there's always context, Mr. Patel . . . this is an extraordinary circumstance. You understand that this is very heated. Many people lost their loved ones on 9/11 --
Patel: Including Muslim Americans who lost their loved ones. . . .
Lemon: Consider the context here. That's what I'm talking about.
Patel: I have to tell you that this seems a little like telling black people 50 years ago: you can sit anywhere on the bus you like - just not in the front.
Lemon: I think that's apples and oranges - I don't think that black people were behind a Terrorist plot to kill people and drive planes into a building. That's a completely different circumstance.
Patel: And American Muslims were not behind the terrorist plot either.
Sadly, this common sense is not present in Congress, where Democrats are now attacking dissident Republicans (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/08/house_democrat_now_politicizin.html), like the attacks by Rep. Michael Arcuri of New York on his GOP challenger, Richard Hanna, for supporting the Cordoba House initiative.
I really wish there was a 'burn down capitol hill' option on the ballot right now.
I was prompted by BH over at TCC to do some Googling, and it turns out not only is there a statue to Jesus at the "hallowed ground"* of the OK City bombing, but there is also a cathedral less than a block away. Why are Christians threatening our values and way of life?
*Is it just me, or is there something rather disturbing, if historically accurate, about describing a site of politically inspired mass murder in such religious terminology? I mean it's like referring to the areas where Catholic priests have raped little kids as "sacred space".
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2010, 07:38:24 AM
I was prompted by BH over at TCC to do some Googling, and it turns out not only is there a statue to Jesus at the "hallowed ground"* of the OK City bombing, but there is also a cathedral less than a block away. Why are Christians threatening our values and way of life?
*Is it just me, or is there something rather disturbing, if historically accurate, about describing a site of politically inspired mass murder in such religious terminology? I mean it's like referring to the areas where Catholic priests have raped little kids as "sacred space".
Well, Timothy McVeigh appears to have been motivated by anti-federal dogma more than the fact that the Branch Davidians were Christian, while the 9/11 bombers seem more clearly motivated by religious dogma.
Regardless, the "hallowed ground" point is still a great point, I hadn't considered that. There is something deeply fucked up, and yes, oddly appropriate about it.
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2010, 06:24:21 AM
Common sense on CNN:
QuoteLemon: Don't you think it's a bit different considering what happened on 9/11? And the people have said there's a need for it in Lower Manhattan, so that's why it's being built there. What about 10, 20 blocks . . . Midtown Manhattan, considering the circumstances behind this? That's not understandable?
Patel: In America, we don't tell people based on their race or religion or ethnicity that they are free in this place, but not in that place --
Lemon: [interrupting] I understand that, but there's always context, Mr. Patel . . . this is an extraordinary circumstance. You understand that this is very heated. Many people lost their loved ones on 9/11 --
Patel: Including Muslim Americans who lost their loved ones. . . .
Lemon: Consider the context here. That's what I'm talking about.
Patel: I have to tell you that this seems a little like telling black people 50 years ago: you can sit anywhere on the bus you like - just not in the front.
Lemon: I think that's apples and oranges - I don't think that black people were behind a Terrorist plot to kill people and drive planes into a building. That's a completely different circumstance.
Patel: And American Muslims were not behind the terrorist plot either.
BAM! more ownage.
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on August 18, 2010, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2010, 07:38:24 AM
I was prompted by BH over at TCC to do some Googling, and it turns out not only is there a statue to Jesus at the "hallowed ground"* of the OK City bombing, but there is also a cathedral less than a block away. Why are Christians threatening our values and way of life?
*Is it just me, or is there something rather disturbing, if historically accurate, about describing a site of politically inspired mass murder in such religious terminology? I mean it's like referring to the areas where Catholic priests have raped little kids as "sacred space".
Well, Timothy McVeigh appears to have been motivated by anti-federal dogma more than the fact that the Branch Davidians were Christian, while the 9/11 bombers seem more clearly motivated by religious dogma.
Regardless, the "hallowed ground" point is still a great point, I hadn't considered that. There is something deeply fucked up, and yes, oddly appropriate about it.
I think it's a question of where you draw the line. Most of the 90s antifederalist movement was religiously motivated, and even though McVeigh was an agnostic, he was moving within a milieu of people who believed in Christian Identity inspired ideologies and worldviews. Equally, many Al-Qaeda members are highly educated men, who seem to believe in Islam for more cultural and political reasons than strictly for religious reasons (they believe Islam provides a blueprint for living which stops men from slipping into ignorant, hedonistic barbarism and becoming weak, rather than because Allah sent the Archangel Gabriel to Mohammed to strike up a new convenant).
Quote from: Cain on August 17, 2010, 09:09:19 PM
Yeah, religion plays no part in Israel-Palestine at all. :lol:
Also, Muslims should suck it up and stop desecrating the hallowed Ground Zero, so the Dems don't lose in November:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-17/the-ground-zero-mosque-litmus-test/
QuoteThe November elections are very close to becoming—if they haven't already so become—the first national elections in the United States whose results are determined by the location of a mosque. Call them, in fact, the "Mosque Elections."
Forget health-care reform and unbridled stimulus spending; forget perceived errors in Iraq and Afghanistan; forget unemployment and our economy's endless night; forget, if you can, the toxic questions of illegal immigration and oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico. If the promoters of the mosque near ground zero do not pack up their Korans and prayer mats within the next week or so, there is every danger that they will cause the Democrats grievous harm in November—in an election that is already one in which the Democrats are bracing for a rout.
:lulz:
This just gets funnier and funnier. Dear jeebus this place is going to bonkersville in a fucked-basket.
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2010, 06:24:21 AM
Sadly, this common sense is not present in Congress, where Democrats are now attacking dissident Republicans (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/08/house_democrat_now_politicizin.html), like the attacks by Rep. Michael Arcuri of New York on his GOP challenger, Richard Hanna, for supporting the Cordoba House initiative.
Chris Hayes of The Nation was filling in for Rachel Maddow last night. He was reporting that Hanna has now reversed his position and is now also against the Park 51 community center. And now they are fighting over whether or not Hanna is a flip-flopper.
Quote from: Cain on August 17, 2010, 09:09:19 PM
Yeah, religion plays no part in Israel-Palestine at all. :lol:
Also, Muslims should suck it up and stop desecrating the hallowed Ground Zero, so the Dems don't lose in November:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-17/the-ground-zero-mosque-litmus-test/
QuoteThe November elections are very close to becoming—if they haven't already so become—the first national elections in the United States whose results are determined by the location of a mosque. Call them, in fact, the "Mosque Elections."
Forget health-care reform and unbridled stimulus spending; forget perceived errors in Iraq and Afghanistan; forget unemployment and our economy's endless night; forget, if you can, the toxic questions of illegal immigration and oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico. If the promoters of the mosque near ground zero do not pack up their Korans and prayer mats within the next week or so, there is every danger that they will cause the Democrats grievous harm in November—in an election that is already one in which the Democrats are bracing for a rout.
This was the point of this manufactroversy from the begin. It's a wedge issue to pull more xenophobic people over to the Republicans in November. It's the exact same thing they did in 2004 with gay marriage. I would be laughing if it didn't work so fucking well.
Jon Stewart did a really good riff on this for the 8/16/10 show. I don't have access to the site, but someone should track it down and x-post.
It's available real estate in Manhattan.
People need to get the fuck over it.
That is all.
Quote from: Doktor Princess on August 18, 2010, 04:18:13 PM
It's available real estate in Manhattan.
People need to get the fuck over it.
That is all.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/jon-stewart-on-the-mosque-who-knew-the-first-amendment-had-the-same-slogan-as-century-21/
Quote from: Doktor Princess on August 18, 2010, 04:18:13 PM
It's available real estate in Manhattan.
People need to get the fuck over it.
That is all.
Also, we either have freedom of religion in this country, or we don't. There's no middle ground.
When even Grover Norquist is criticizing you, you know your position sucks (Norquist actually has a Muslim wife, IIRC, and points out when American Christians act like this, all Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc sit up and take notice. And remember names for when election day rolls around).
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 18, 2010, 04:20:38 PM
Quote from: Doktor Princess on August 18, 2010, 04:18:13 PM
It's available real estate in Manhattan.
People need to get the fuck over it.
That is all.
Also, we either have freedom of religion in this country, or we don't. There's no middle ground.
Don't forget some are questioning whether Islam is even a religion.
Yeah, Islam cant be a religion, because it aims to rule the world.
Which makes it totally unlike, say, Catholicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unam_sanctam):
QuoteFurthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 18, 2010, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 18, 2010, 04:20:38 PM
Quote from: Doktor Princess on August 18, 2010, 04:18:13 PM
It's available real estate in Manhattan.
People need to get the fuck over it.
That is all.
Also, we either have freedom of religion in this country, or we don't. There's no middle ground.
Don't forget some are questioning whether Islam is even a religion.
Some are chewing on paint chips.
May they be based in lead.
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2010, 11:40:14 AM
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on August 18, 2010, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2010, 07:38:24 AM
I was prompted by BH over at TCC to do some Googling, and it turns out not only is there a statue to Jesus at the "hallowed ground"* of the OK City bombing, but there is also a cathedral less than a block away. Why are Christians threatening our values and way of life?
*Is it just me, or is there something rather disturbing, if historically accurate, about describing a site of politically inspired mass murder in such religious terminology? I mean it's like referring to the areas where Catholic priests have raped little kids as "sacred space".
Well, Timothy McVeigh appears to have been motivated by anti-federal dogma more than the fact that the Branch Davidians were Christian, while the 9/11 bombers seem more clearly motivated by religious dogma.
Regardless, the "hallowed ground" point is still a great point, I hadn't considered that. There is something deeply fucked up, and yes, oddly appropriate about it.
I think it's a question of where you draw the line. Most of the 90s antifederalist movement was religiously motivated, and even though McVeigh was an agnostic, he was moving within a milieu of people who believed in Christian Identity inspired ideologies and worldviews. Equally, many Al-Qaeda members are highly educated men, who seem to believe in Islam for more cultural and political reasons than strictly for religious reasons (they believe Islam provides a blueprint for living which stops men from slipping into ignorant, hedonistic barbarism and becoming weak, rather than because Allah sent the Archangel Gabriel to Mohammed to strike up a new convenant).
Fair enough.
Do you have any sources handy about Al-Qaeda drawing members more interested the cultural and political side of Islam? Not that I don't believe you, but because I know I'll get called on it in a future argument with anti-WTC mosquers. Also because your source is likely to have other useful facts to pepper the opposition with.
Its more of a general impression I've formed. They're very into Islamism, the political ideology advanced by Sayid Qutb and the Muslim Brotherhood, and while they preach the need for a return to Salafist values...well, they're the kind of people who attend strip clubs, drink beer and eat pork ("but only to maintain their cover, honest!"). They view Islam through tactical and political terms - its bound up in revolution, restoration of an older political order, the removal of influence of a political hegemon. Some of the newer crop of Al-Qaeda recruits cant even read Arabic, and only know a few token verses of the Koran, normally the ones about killing infidels. Among the less well educated, Bin Laden hero-worship seems like the only religious activity that is going on.
That's not to say there aren't also many Muslims within Al-Qaeda, only that among Middle eastern elites (the ones who go abroad to University, and end up being recruited by Al-Qaeda), their relationship to Islam is far more of a cultural affiliation than a believer would have, I think.
But then, that may be true of many other religious terrorists, I don't know. Al-Qaeda are the group I'm most familiar with.
You can replace Islamism with Christianity and Salafist values with family values and can hypothesize maybe it's just a human nature thing.
http://therevealer.org/archives/4733
QuoteSome say that the notion of a "mosque" near the hallowed site of Ground Zero is insensitive. That position might seem consistent but for three things: the proposed Muslim community center is out of sight from Ground Zero, other houses of worship have not been barred from the area, and little (negative) attention has been paid to the strip clubs in the neighborhood. When strip clubs are prioritized over a place for people to talk, socialize, and pray, it seems clear that fear is at play. Better a known vice, the fear-mongers imply, than a less understood religion.
Protests against Park51 have metastasized into a national movement against the establishment of mosques. Fighting the construction of mosques has lead to even more outrageous threats – and plans by one extremist church in Florida to burn copies of the Quran on the ninth anniversary of 9/11. Even some local and national politicians have joined in the chorus of fright. Long-term solutions to terrorism are far more complicated than short-term political gain; it is easier to unite constituents against a phantasm than for a purpose. Fear of the unknown has spiraled out of control, targeting Sharia, places of worship, and now even Scripture. The fear is feeding on itself, and starting to consume the essence of religion in America: freedom. The Founding Fathers knew that when one house of worship is endangered, none of them are safe; when a Torah is burned, a Bible may be next; when one kind of religious law is defamed, theologies of all kinds may become subjected to hate. It would seem that in the name of preserving American values – supposedly against terrorism – we have come to actually compromise those same values.
...In fact, the only true beneficiaries of Islamophobia are the terrorist organizations that want to show that America is not actually free, that Muslims will never be welcome here. Terrorism is both a cause and a product of fear; Islamophobes amplify the voices of extremists and create polarities that need never exist.
I did some research the other day and discovered that my two Senators, the ones the GOP likes to call RINOs, have totally caved on this mosque deal. Snowe is pretty much in lockstep with her "Mavericky" buddy McCain. "It's insensitive to the vicitms", she says. Meanwhile, Collins just won't answer the question, which I suppose is marginally better than being against it, but jeebus, take a stand woman!
Never voting for these two clowns again.
Dear America,
The 9th anniversary of Pearl Harbor was 1950. We had already moved on to Korea by then.
And that girl, the one who stood you up at the homecoming dance? That was 30 years ago.
GET OVER IT.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 18, 2010, 07:39:38 PM
Snowe is pretty much in lockstep with her "Mavericky" buddy McCain.
Aw, shit. :sad:
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 18, 2010, 07:39:38 PM
"It's insensitive to the vicitms",
Sensitivity trumps rights.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 18, 2010, 07:39:38 PM
Never voting for these two clowns again.
seriously. I'm going to use politicians reactions to this debacle as a voting guide in November.
Quote from: Cramulus on August 18, 2010, 08:13:15 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 18, 2010, 07:39:38 PM
Never voting for these two clowns again.
seriously. I'm going to use politicians reactions to this debacle as a voting guide in November.
So am I.
Just not sure which WAY. Responsible vs Burn it all down. :?
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2010, 04:38:47 PM
Yeah, Islam cant be a religion, because it aims to rule the world.
Which makes it totally unlike, say, Catholicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unam_sanctam):
QuoteFurthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff
Then again, if anyone actually took the time to learn about Islam, they'd find out it wasn't that far off from Catholicism or Christianity as a whole. Or how much they (Muslims) admire the teachings of Jesus as a prophet and even devote a fair chunk of the Quran to him.
...But we can't expect people to ever read anything, unless it's published in a Glenn Beck book, can we?
My Southern Baptist uncle once sent my parents black and white copies of pages within the Quran, and highlighted parts where it said to "kill the infidels". I fired back my own copies of the Bible, highlighting similar phrases, the original decree given by Pope Urban II at the Council of Clermont, and other documentation.
He refuses to speak to me ever again.
Quote from: Doktor Princess on August 18, 2010, 08:59:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2010, 04:38:47 PM
Yeah, Islam cant be a religion, because it aims to rule the world.
Which makes it totally unlike, say, Catholicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unam_sanctam):
QuoteFurthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff
Then again, if anyone actually took the time to learn about Islam, they'd find out it wasn't that far off from Catholicism or Christianity as a whole. Or how much they (Muslims) admire the teachings of Jesus as a prophet and even devote a fair chunk of the Quran to him.
...But we can't expect people to ever read anything, unless it's published in a Glenn Beck book, can we?
My Southern Baptist uncle once sent my parents black and white copies of pages within the Quran, and highlighted parts where it said to "kill the infidels". I fired back my own copies of the Bible, highlighting similar phrases, the original decree given by Pope Urban II at the Council of Clermont, and other documentation.
He refuses to speak to me ever again.
This is the problem. No one will take the time to actually research and reach their own independent opinions, they just jump on the closest shiny boat and there it is.
Your Uncle needs to read the NEW testament, you know, the one about love, tolerance, understanding, not judging...
The ADL has apparently decided that community centers are Bad as well. I will have to go let the local Jewish community centers know they shouldn't have done such nasty things. :lulz:
Also, I'm hearing this is being built by the Sufis, which just makes the reaction even more insane.
sufis?? :lulz:
I am more scared of accidentally flushing myself down the toilet than I am of sufis.
Quote from: Cramulus on August 18, 2010, 09:52:19 PM
sufis?? :lulz:
I am more scared of accidentally flushing myself down the toilet than I am of sufis.
Never read Howard the Duck, have you? Before your time, I think. Those Sufis are badasses.
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 18, 2010, 09:09:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Princess on August 18, 2010, 08:59:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2010, 04:38:47 PM
Yeah, Islam cant be a religion, because it aims to rule the world.
Which makes it totally unlike, say, Catholicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unam_sanctam):
QuoteFurthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff
Then again, if anyone actually took the time to learn about Islam, they'd find out it wasn't that far off from Catholicism or Christianity as a whole. Or how much they (Muslims) admire the teachings of Jesus as a prophet and even devote a fair chunk of the Quran to him.
...But we can't expect people to ever read anything, unless it's published in a Glenn Beck book, can we?
My Southern Baptist uncle once sent my parents black and white copies of pages within the Quran, and highlighted parts where it said to "kill the infidels". I fired back my own copies of the Bible, highlighting similar phrases, the original decree given by Pope Urban II at the Council of Clermont, and other documentation.
He refuses to speak to me ever again.
This is the problem. No one will take the time to actually research and reach their own independent opinions, they just jump on the closest shiny boat and there it is.
Your Uncle needs to read the NEW testament, you know, the one about love, tolerance, understanding, not judging...
Note:
Southern Baptist.
Even Grover "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub" Norquist thinks this is a frivolous losing political tactic:
Quote
Back in 1998, congressional Republicans were also "distracted by shiny things," Norquist says, when the Lewinsky scandal began. "They nationalized the election around an irrelevancy," he said. Republicans lost five House seats that year, despite widespread predictions that they would expand their majority. Furthermore, Norquist argues that by promoting such tangential issue as the mosque, Republicans have given vulnerable Democrats, like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a lifeline, allowing him to distance himself from President Obama and the rest of the Democratic Party.
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/08/18/grover-norquist-says-mosque-controversy-is-bad-for-republicans/?xid=rss-topstories
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-16-2010/mosque-erade (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-16-2010/mosque-erade)
Here's an interesting clip about this mess from The Daily Show. I think it's really damn sad Jon Stewart tends to be a more reliable source of news on topics like this than pretty much everyone else.
Only until you understand the basic nature of America. In America the funniest people go into politics, and the wisest people go into comedy.
I didn't think Bush was very funny. Obama doesn't seem that hilarious either. Unless you're talking Will Ferrell/Adam Sandler funny. Which would explain why I don't get it. Heh. Intentional idiocy (even for the sake of comedy) annoys me.
. . . I have this sneaking suspicion in my gut that you speak true. :S
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 18, 2010, 08:14:06 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on August 18, 2010, 08:13:15 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 18, 2010, 07:39:38 PM
Never voting for these two clowns again.
seriously. I'm going to use politicians reactions to this debacle as a voting guide in November.
So am I.
Just not sure which WAY. Responsible vs Burn it all down. :?
I can see that. Maybe it's time for this sucker to bottom out.
The "culture" of Islam vs. the religious side of it is actually a factor in most of the educated and Westernized male Muslim populations, from what I can see from my husband's experience here in the US and Canada (as well as abroad in The Netherlands, Germany and the UK, where his relatives reside). Islamist daily practices vary WIDELY amongst the different practitioners. It seems to me that, especially with the men, they easily adapt to the lifestyle of those they are in and amongst and yet still maintain that they are in fact "Muslim." The more orthodox of the population see these people as "bad Muslims," as they may drink, go to bars, date women outside their religion and culture (though the Qu'uran allows the men to marry Jews and Christians, but the women have to marry Muslims).
I can see this extending out to be a phenomenon used for convenience, since relying on Sharia seems to be the default for those Muslims who refuse to think for themselves, but yet are able to create a bevy of Bacha Bazis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi) or engage in drug trade or make nice with Al Qaeda.
As for the now-infamous mosque, it's sad to me Obama had this chance to really stand firm on an issue and yet again he fucks it up by taking a strong stance one minute and then reverses himself the next. Ugh.
I noticed it mostly with the Saudi boys I and others at the school were working with, especially the older ones. They'd observe things like not eating pork, Ramadan etc, but you wouldn't catch them praying five times a day, and they were more likely to ogle a scantily clad woman than admonish her for improper dress (admittedly, these were teenage boys. Hormones > 1400 year old book). The girls would dress smartly, but rarely ever covered their hair or wore shapeless clothing that hid their body entirely. They had absolutelly no problems accepting things like evolution and other advanced scientific concepts. The boys had no problems taking orders or directions from women staff or anything like that either.
So, pretty much like Easter/Christmas only Xtians.
Cafeteria Muslims.
"Infidels and traitors to the faith, who shall be cleansed from the Ummah, Allah willing"
I sincerely hope that the Right-Wing says so much inflammatory nonsense to energize their base that they accidentally energize everybody else in opposition to them.
Although, I'm still voting straight GOP this year, just to see how far we can take this.
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on August 19, 2010, 04:19:00 PM
So, pretty much like Easter/Christmas only Xtians.
What is a "Christtian" ?
It's pronounced "Ecks'shanz", for your information.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 05:09:24 PM
I sincerely hope that the Right-Wing says so much inflammatory nonsense to energize their base that they accidentally energize everybody else in opposition to them.
This is what worries me, though: few seemed motivated against them. More and more seem to come out as closet bigots who've obviously thought everyone who wasn't JUST LIKE THEM needs to burn in hell, be shot on sight, etc. It's scary. It really makes me hate people.
And then I hear of stories of the guy who stops along the highway (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18920896) every Tuesday to have a prayer session, and the people who heard about it so they go out every Tuesday and stop along the highway to do the same thing. I'm glad they can exercise their rights by praying in public, but can you imagine what would happen if a group of Muslims--no, fuck that--a group of Hari Krishnas got out there and did the same thing? They'd shit bricks. Often, and loudly.
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 05:38:53 PM
This is what worries me, though: few seemed motivated against them. More and more seem to come out as closet bigots who've obviously thought everyone who wasn't JUST LIKE THEM needs to burn in hell, be shot on sight, etc. It's scary. It really makes me hate people.
That's the loud ones. If the country really felt that way, McCain/Palin would have won.
Even Liberty McLiberal Howard Dean now says the "mosque" should be built elsewhere. A political consensus is forming, but it's one which favours the bigots and idiots.
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2010, 05:43:13 PM
Even Liberty McLiberal Howard Dean now says the "mosque" should be built elsewhere. A political consensus is forming, but it's one which favours the bigots and idiots.
Yeah, well, fuck Screamin' Howie Dean, too.
I used to like him. :argh!:
Feingold still says the Muslim community centre is cool. So at least there is that.
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2010, 06:08:45 PM
Feingold still says the Muslim community centre is cool. So at least there is that.
Figured he would. That's good in a way, but the proper response was "not in my purview".
Funny thing is, it's not even a federal fucking issue. It's a City of New York issue. So much for "small government conservatives", "state's rights", or "any rights", for that matter.
Fucking America. It's like we have lead in the Goddamn plumbing or something.
This is kicking off more anti-Muslim hysteria, too
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/11/nyregion/11mosque.html?_r=2
QuoteIn the last few months, Muslim groups have encountered unexpectedly intense opposition to their plans for opening mosques in Lower Manhattan, in Brooklyn and most recently in an empty convent on Staten Island.
Some opponents have cited traffic and parking concerns. But the objections have focused overwhelmingly on more intangible and volatile issues: fear of terrorism, distrust of Islam and a linkage of the two in opponents' minds.
"Wouldn't you agree that every terrorist, past and present, has come out of a mosque?" asked one woman who stood up Wednesday night during a civic association meeting on Staten Island to address representatives of a group that wants to convert a Roman Catholic convent into a mosque in the Midland Beach neighborhood.
"No," began Ayman Hammous, president of the Staten Island branch of the group, the Muslim American Society — though the rest of his answer was drowned out by catcalls and boos from among the 400 people who packed the gymnasium of a community center.
Yasmin Ammirato, president of the Midland Beach Civic Association, which organized the meeting in an effort to dispel tensions, bellowed into her portable microphone in the first of many efforts to keep control during the subsequent three hours: "Excuse me! This is a civic association meeting! Everybody have a little respect!"
Opposition to new mosques has become almost commonplace. A similar uproar erupted during a Lower Manhattan community board meeting on May 25 over plans to build a mosque near ground zero. Protests also have broken out in Brentwood, Tenn.; Sheboygan County, Wis.; and Dayton, Ohio.
And http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20100809/pl_yblog_upshot/mosques-around-the-country-facing-opposition
QuoteTwo weeks later, the New York Times and the Associated Press are catching up with The Upshot's reporting on the growing opposition to mosques around the country. Mosques in small communities in Tennessee, California and Wisconsin — far from the emotionally loaded Ground Zero site — are facing protests from community members who contend that the Muslim houses of worship serve as training grounds for jihadists.
Both stories highlight a recent two-year study by Duke University and the University of North Carolina, which found that mosques and other community organizations like Muslim bookstores help prevent radicalization among American Muslims.
Meanwhile, American University professor and former U.K. ambassador to Pakistan Akbar Ahmed told "The Daily Show's" Jon Stewart that America's Founding Fathers held deep respect for Islam, and that modern opponents are rewriting history by attacking Islam as a religion of evil.
"Everywhere there's a mosque, there's a tension now," Ahmed told The Upshot two weeks ago, citing his year of field research visiting 100 mosques around the country.
That tension doesn't seem likely to let up any time soon. On Friday, about a dozen protesters confronted worshipers at a mosque in Bridgeport, Conn., yelling at them with a bullhorn: "Murderers!" and "Jesus hates Muslims."
HAHAHAHA!
GOOD THING IT'S NOT THE FUCKING 1950s ANYMORE!
We have a very nice mosque on Speedway Blvd, in Tucson.
They are treated with respect, and they reciprocate.
Sometimes I fucking love this city.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/44196/20100819/obama-president-muslim-pew-survey-the-audacity-of-hope-dreams-from-my-father-wasp.htm
QuoteAccording to the latest survey by Pew Research Center, more and more Americans have come to believe that their President is a Muslim.
The percentage of people who correctly identify him as a Christian has fallen to just 34 percent. The survey shows that one in five Americans believe that Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim.
HAW HAW!
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 06:10:48 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2010, 06:08:45 PM
Feingold still says the Muslim community centre is cool. So at least there is that.
Figured he would. That's good in a way, but the proper response was "not in my purview".
Funny thing is, it's not even a federal fucking issue. It's a City of New York issue. So much for "small government conservatives", "state's rights", or "any rights", for that matter.
Fucking America. It's like we have lead in the Goddamn plumbing or something.
Cain: this is not a consensus, it's a bunch of retarded "liberals" running around like they're about to lose their asses because they aren't sufficiently
conservative. This is complete horse shit and it is the
exact reason why nobody is going to show up in November to defend them. I know I'm not. And it has nothing to do with them being
too liberal.
The Democrats have a chronic lack of balls. It's hilarious, too, because this has the people's problem with them for the past 30 years. Democrats are pussies. They don't stand for anything, they don't fight for anybody, and they won't commit to a solid agenda until they've backroom-dealt the soul of their ideas away. I'm not just dissatisfied with their progress, I'm completely sick of them as people. There's a noticeable part of me that honestly
wants to vote Republican - not because I agree with a damn one of their planks, but because at least they say what they are going to do, and then they fucking
do it.
In fact, it's gotten to the point now where it's obvious, at least to me, that the Democrats are practically a front organization for the Big Business agenda. They're put into power with a bunch of bullshit words, they make a few token gestures toward progress, and it's all used to agitate and energize people who diametrically oppose anything like social progress or equality, in order to get the GOP back into power on a wave of bigotry and xenophobia with so much momentum that everything
real Progressives did 50 or 60 years ago can be swept away and forgotten.
Meanwhile, modern Democrats play Kumbaya around a fake campfire, playing "post-partisan" games and trying to "cooperate" and talk nice. Until there's a swing in public opinion away from their position, and then they say "Me too!!!1!11" and try to hitch a ride on whatever seems to be going the way people are moving, instead of standing up for their position and telling people why the forces of ignorance and hatred are
wrong. That's all their base wants to see - a show that they, too, can feel strongly about something. But every one of them from the dipshit running for State Superintendent in Wyoming to President Obama are so obsessed with playing political billiards and positioning themselves, that they completely miss out on every single opportunity to demonstrate that the progressive agenda is actually
superior.
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on August 19, 2010, 06:20:05 PM
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/44196/20100819/obama-president-muslim-pew-survey-the-audacity-of-hope-dreams-from-my-father-wasp.htm
QuoteAccording to the latest survey by Pew Research Center, more and more Americans have come to believe that their President is a Muslim.
The percentage of people who correctly identify him as a Christian has fallen to just 34 percent. The survey shows that one in five Americans believe that Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim.
Wouldn't it be great if Obama just up and converted? He'd be all, "
Now what, crackers?"
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 06:35:32 PM
Cain: this is not a consensus, it's a bunch of retarded "liberals" running around like they're about to lose their asses because they aren't sufficiently conservative. This is complete horse shit and it is the exact reason why nobody is going to show up in November to defend them. I know I'm not. And it has nothing to do with them being too liberal.
Same here. Fuck America. It had its chance. Give it to the retards.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 06:35:32 PM
The Democrats have a chronic lack of balls. It's hilarious, too, because this has the people's problem with them for the past 30 years. Democrats are pussies. They don't stand for anything, they don't fight for anybody, and they won't commit to a solid agenda until they've backroom-dealt the soul of their ideas away. I'm not just dissatisfied with their progress, I'm completely sick of them as people. There's a noticeable part of me that honestly wants to vote Republican - not because I agree with a damn one of their planks, but because at least they say what they are going to do, and then they fucking do it.
A plague on both their houses. Evil men who do what they say, and "good" (har!) men who dither and fiddle-fuck around until everything they try to accomplish has tumbled back into the river of shit.
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on August 19, 2010, 06:37:52 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on August 19, 2010, 06:20:05 PM
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/44196/20100819/obama-president-muslim-pew-survey-the-audacity-of-hope-dreams-from-my-father-wasp.htm
QuoteAccording to the latest survey by Pew Research Center, more and more Americans have come to believe that their President is a Muslim.
The percentage of people who correctly identify him as a Christian has fallen to just 34 percent. The survey shows that one in five Americans believe that Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim.
Wouldn't it be great if Obama just up and converted? He'd be all, "Now what, crackers?"
If I were him, I'd be trolling the conservatives incessantly.
Jesus fucking christ on a stick.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 06:38:35 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 06:35:32 PM
Cain: this is not a consensus, it's a bunch of retarded "liberals" running around like they're about to lose their asses because they aren't sufficiently conservative. This is complete horse shit and it is the exact reason why nobody is going to show up in November to defend them. I know I'm not. And it has nothing to do with them being too liberal.
Same here. Fuck America. It had its chance. Give it to the retards.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 06:35:32 PM
The Democrats have a chronic lack of balls. It's hilarious, too, because this has the people's problem with them for the past 30 years. Democrats are pussies. They don't stand for anything, they don't fight for anybody, and they won't commit to a solid agenda until they've backroom-dealt the soul of their ideas away. I'm not just dissatisfied with their progress, I'm completely sick of them as people. There's a noticeable part of me that honestly wants to vote Republican - not because I agree with a damn one of their planks, but because at least they say what they are going to do, and then they fucking do it.
A plague on both their houses. Evil men who do what they say, and "good" (har!) men who dither and fiddle-fuck around until everything they try to accomplish has tumbled back into the river of shit.
Hell yes, Dok.
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on August 19, 2010, 06:20:05 PM
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/44196/20100819/obama-president-muslim-pew-survey-the-audacity-of-hope-dreams-from-my-father-wasp.htm
QuoteAccording to the latest survey by Pew Research Center, more and more Americans have come to believe that their President is a Muslim.
The percentage of people who correctly identify him as a Christian has fallen to just 34 percent. The survey shows that one in five Americans believe that Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim.
You know there is a part of the Koran that explicitly states that you can not deny your faith if your a Muslim. Being a secret Muslim is sort of an oxymoron.
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2010, 11:40:14 AM
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on August 18, 2010, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2010, 07:38:24 AM
I was prompted by BH over at TCC to do some Googling, and it turns out not only is there a statue to Jesus at the "hallowed ground"* of the OK City bombing, but there is also a cathedral less than a block away. Why are Christians threatening our values and way of life?
*Is it just me, or is there something rather disturbing, if historically accurate, about describing a site of politically inspired mass murder in such religious terminology? I mean it's like referring to the areas where Catholic priests have raped little kids as "sacred space".
Well, Timothy McVeigh appears to have been motivated by anti-federal dogma more than the fact that the Branch Davidians were Christian, while the 9/11 bombers seem more clearly motivated by religious dogma.
Regardless, the "hallowed ground" point is still a great point, I hadn't considered that. There is something deeply fucked up, and yes, oddly appropriate about it.
I think it's a question of where you draw the line. Most of the 90s antifederalist movement was religiously motivated, and even though McVeigh was an agnostic, he was moving within a milieu of people who believed in Christian Identity inspired ideologies and worldviews. Equally, many Al-Qaeda members are highly educated men, who seem to believe in Islam for more cultural and political reasons than strictly for religious reasons (they believe Islam provides a blueprint for living which stops men from slipping into ignorant, hedonistic barbarism and becoming weak, rather than because Allah sent the Archangel Gabriel to Mohammed to strike up a new convenant).
Al Queda is pretty clearly a political, as opposed to purely religious, movement. That's actually one of the things that the anti Muslim fanatics keep bringing up "It's not just a cult, it's a way of life!"
Quote from: Doktor Princess on August 18, 2010, 08:59:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2010, 04:38:47 PM
Yeah, Islam cant be a religion, because it aims to rule the world.
Which makes it totally unlike, say, Catholicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unam_sanctam):
QuoteFurthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff
Then again, if anyone actually took the time to learn about Islam, they'd find out it wasn't that far off from Catholicism or Christianity as a whole. Or how much they (Muslims) admire the teachings of Jesus as a prophet and even devote a fair chunk of the Quran to him.
...But we can't expect people to ever read anything, unless it's published in a Glenn Beck book, can we?
My Southern Baptist uncle once sent my parents black and white copies of pages within the Quran, and highlighted parts where it said to "kill the infidels". I fired back my own copies of the Bible, highlighting similar phrases, the original decree given by Pope Urban II at the Council of Clermont, and other documentation.
He refuses to speak to me ever again.
Don't most Southern Baptists think that the Catholic Church is a horrible evil institution?
Quote from: curiosity on August 19, 2010, 08:29:00 AM
I didn't think Bush was very funny. Obama doesn't seem that hilarious either. Unless you're talking Will Ferrell/Adam Sandler funny. Which would explain why I don't get it. Heh. Intentional idiocy (even for the sake of comedy) annoys me.
. . . I have this sneaking suspicion in my gut that you speak true. :S
Bush was hilarious. Obama takes a bit more to really get, but Bush was practically slapstick.
As a former Southern Baptist, yes, they do. They think Catholics are the devil's own, and all other religions are basically cults as well. Growing up the way I did, I saw Hinduisn = Buddhism = Mormonism = 7th Day Adventism = Islam.
Shit. You. Not.
I had to go to college and research on my own to find out what the fuck the difference was. Because if you asked a Southern Baptist, they'd just give a set answer not based on anything but prejudice.
I have to side with vex on the reason the Dem Libs/assholes with no balls are siding with the "fuck the Muslims!" crowd. They think middle America sides with them, because every fucking poll coming out of NYC says 63% (or higher) believes the mosque/center should be relocated, even though a higher percentage thinks they have the right to build one.
Just not where they want to.
This is one case where what people think doesn't matter. The principles of religious freedom should trump public opinion all the time, not just when it feels good. Personally I think the mosque borders on insensitive, but the Constitution tells me it doesn't matter what I think, and that's a good thing.
If Democrats would just say that, at least they would have a respectable position. But they just flap around with every poll, trying to come across as agreeing with people. And nobody is the slightest bit fooled by such overt pandering for votes. They should be embarrassed, but I suspect they are too busy with focus groups and expert panels and political calculations to realize they are taking their greatest opportunity to come back for November, and turning it into the biggest GOP rout since Sherman's March.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 07:56:30 PM
This is one case where what people think doesn't matter. The principles of religious freedom should trump public opinion all the time, not just when it feels good. Personally I think the mosque borders on insensitive, but the Constitution tells me it doesn't matter what I think, and that's a good thing.
If Democrats would just say that, at least they would have a respectable position. But they just flap around with every poll, trying to come across as agreeing with people. And nobody is the slightest bit fooled by such overt pandering for votes. They should be embarrassed, but I suspect they are too busy with focus groups and expert panels and political calculations to realize they are taking their greatest opportunity to come back for November, and turning it into the biggest GOP rout since Sherman's March.
If this is stopped, then what little of a tattered paper called the constitution will wither away.
Patriot Acts. Just saying.
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 07:58:48 PM
If this is stopped, then what little of a tattered paper called the constitution will wither away.
HeeeelllllOOOOO, 2003! :lulz:
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:00:40 PM
Patriot Acts. Just saying.
Yes, I know. But as of yet they haven't actually came out and said fuck the constitution yet. This would be the equivalent of doing exactly that. Then you can expect a strong motion for a christian nation to surface and be approved.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 07:56:30 PM
Personally I think the mosque borders on insensitive,
http://www.park51.org/cordoba.htm
Its not a mosque but a community center
that
QuoteWe're all about multiple points of entry, offering programming in the areas of arts and culture, education and recreation. Within that larger vision, Cordoba House will be a center for multifaith dialogue and engagement within Park51's broader range of programs and activities.
which will contain
Quote* outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)
* a 500-seat auditorium
* a restaurant and culinary school
* cultural amenities including exhibitions
* education programs
* a library, reading room and art studios
* childcare services
* a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community
* a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all
also
QuoteThis non-profit will be run by an Executive Director, yet to be selected, support staff, and a 23-member Board of Directors. We will choose a diverse Board of Directors, based on leadership, experience and perspective. The Board will not be limited by religion or region.
I don't know if you could get more benevolent.... next to handing out free food to orphans
This is the case that should be made
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 08:02:47 PM
Yes, I know. But as of yet they haven't actually came out and said fuck the constitution yet.
You need to hang out on some of the GOP/Libertarian boards.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 07:56:30 PM
Personally I think the mosque borders on insensitive,
So, the propaganda about the "mosque" even works on Discordians.
What a hideous notion.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:08:17 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 08:02:47 PM
Yes, I know. But as of yet they haven't actually came out and said fuck the constitution yet.
You need to hang out on some of the GOP/Libertarian boards.
I have allergies.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:09:27 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 07:56:30 PM
Personally I think the mosque borders on insensitive,
So, the propaganda about the "mosque" even works on Discordians.
What a hideous notion.
But they have terrorist classes in them!
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 08:09:44 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:08:17 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 08:02:47 PM
Yes, I know. But as of yet they haven't actually came out and said fuck the constitution yet.
You need to hang out on some of the GOP/Libertarian boards.
I have allergies.
:lulz:
I'M A CONSTITUTIONALIST! AS LONG AS I GET TO SAY WHAT'S IN THE CONSTITUTION.
\
:mullet:
I LIKE IT, TOO! EXCEPT FOR ARTICLES I, II, AND VI, AND AMENDMENTS I, IV, V, VI, VIII, IX, X, AND XIV!
\
:joshua:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:09:27 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 07:56:30 PM
Personally I think the mosque borders on insensitive,
So, the propaganda about the "mosque" even works on Discordians.
What a hideous notion.
That's a gut-reaction without thinking about it. I admit I am not the most enlightened person ever, and the fact that I identify as a "Discordian" really doesn't automatically separate me from anybody else. I'm still an American and I still remember seeing what happened on 9/11, and I still carry some residual associations with respect to Islam, as uninformed and ignorant as they may be. That was the
point of my post -- that the principles of what used to be called America stand higher and are more noble than many people or their daily ideas or long-held beliefs. What I was illustrating was that at least I can recognize that my gut instincts should not be manifested in law or governmental decree at the expense of other people's rights to live as they choose.
That I think the mosque is insensitive in some ways is irrelevant, and that irrelevance is what I am trying to emphasize.
Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Imam who wants the centre built, is also probably somewhere between the President of Pakistan and the King of Saudi Arabia on the Muslim extremist hitlist.
QuoteWalter Isaacson, head of The Aspen Institute, says Feisal "has participated at the Aspen Institute in Muslim-Christian-Jewish working groups looking at ways to promote greater religious tolerance. He has consistently denounced radical Islam and terrorism, and promoted a moderate and tolerant Islam."
I cant think of a better way of poking Al-Qaeda and their "lets start a clash of the civilizations" friends in the eye than letting him go right ahead.
Latest on the chopping block is Amendment XIV, I think. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/02/jon-kyl-repeal-14th-amendment-immigrants_n_667098.html You know, because of Terra Babbies.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 08:16:31 PM
That's a gut-reaction without thinking about it. I admit I am not the most enlightened person ever, and the fact that I identify as a "Discordian" really doesn't automatically separate me from anybody else.
Yes, it does. We're better than they are.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 08:16:31 PM
I'm still an American
I'm sorry.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 08:16:31 PM
and I still remember seeing what happened on 9/11, and I still carry some residual associations with respect to Islam, as uninformed and ignorant as they may be. That was the point of my post -- that the principles of what used to be called America stand higher and are more noble than many people or their daily ideas or long-held beliefs. What I was illustrating was that at least I can recognize that my gut instincts should not be manifested in law or governmental decree at the expense of other people's rights to live as they choose.
Like I said, we're better. It's really that simple.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 08:16:31 PM
That I think the mosque is insensitive in some ways is irrelevant, and that irrelevance is what I am trying to emphasize.
The fact that you think it's a mosque is what I'm on about, here. I realize what you're saying, and you are correct in principle. However, you are operating on false data in the particulars. Happens to the best of us...Hell, I can't count the number of times Nigel and Jenne have jerked me up short when I was spewing a truism.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:09:27 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 07:56:30 PM
Personally I think the mosque borders on insensitive,
So, the propaganda about the "mosque" even works on Discordians.
I find the whole notion of athiests and supposed "rationalists" caught up in the propaganda hilarious.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/08/athiests-and-the-mosque.html
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:19:29 PM
Latest on the chopping block is Amendment XIV, I think. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/02/jon-kyl-repeal-14th-amendment-immigrants_n_667098.html You know, because of Terra Babbies.
Amendment XIV has BEEN on the chopping block. You don't hang out with enough scumbags, Jenne.
And fuck you very much, Jon Kyl. Arizona was embarrassing enough, already.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 08:16:31 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:09:27 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 07:56:30 PM
Personally I think the mosque borders on insensitive,
So, the propaganda about the "mosque" even works on Discordians.
What a hideous notion.
That's a gut-reaction without thinking about it. I admit I am not the most enlightened person ever, and the fact that I identify as a "Discordian" really doesn't automatically separate me from anybody else. I'm still an American and I still remember seeing what happened on 9/11, and I still carry some residual associations with respect to Islam, as uninformed and ignorant as they may be. That was the point of my post -- that the principles of what used to be called America stand higher and are more noble than many people or their daily ideas or long-held beliefs. What I was illustrating was that at least I can recognize that my gut instincts should not be manifested in law or governmental decree at the expense of other people's rights to live as they choose.
That I think the mosque is insensitive in some ways is irrelevant, and that irrelevance is what I am trying to emphasize.
But what if someone says to you, "Bullshit, it's not insensitive"?
I want to know HOW it's "insensitive" to have a religious center near the 9/11 site. Muslims died at that spot who had nothing to do with the hijackers.
So the Muslim survivors are insensitive for freely using their RIGHTS as Americans? The next extrapolatable point is "But they're not RLY FR RLS Americans if they're Muslim!"
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:21:27 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:19:29 PM
Latest on the chopping block is Amendment XIV, I think. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/02/jon-kyl-repeal-14th-amendment-immigrants_n_667098.html You know, because of Terra Babbies.
Amendment XIV has BEEN on the chopping block. You don't hang out with enough scumbags, Jenne.
And fuck you very much, Jon Kyl. Arizona was embarrassing enough, already.
Yes it has. This cry is nothing new.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:21:27 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:19:29 PM
Latest on the chopping block is Amendment XIV, I think. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/02/jon-kyl-repeal-14th-amendment-immigrants_n_667098.html You know, because of Terra Babbies.
Amendment XIV has BEEN on the chopping block. You don't hang out with enough scumbags, Jenne.
And fuck you very much, Jon Kyl. Arizona was embarrassing enough, already.
Tr00f. To all 3 points.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:20:06 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 08:16:31 PM
That's a gut-reaction without thinking about it. I admit I am not the most enlightened person ever, and the fact that I identify as a "Discordian" really doesn't automatically separate me from anybody else.
Yes, it does. We're better than they are.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 08:16:31 PM
I'm still an American
I'm sorry.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 08:16:31 PM
and I still remember seeing what happened on 9/11, and I still carry some residual associations with respect to Islam, as uninformed and ignorant as they may be. That was the point of my post -- that the principles of what used to be called America stand higher and are more noble than many people or their daily ideas or long-held beliefs. What I was illustrating was that at least I can recognize that my gut instincts should not be manifested in law or governmental decree at the expense of other people's rights to live as they choose.
Like I said, we're better. It's really that simple.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 08:16:31 PM
That I think the mosque is insensitive in some ways is irrelevant, and that irrelevance is what I am trying to emphasize.
The fact that you think it's a mosque is what I'm on about, here. I realize what you're saying, and you are correct in principle. However, you are operating on false data in the particulars. Happens to the best of us...Hell, I can't count the number of times Nigel and Jenne have jerked me up short when I was spewing a truism.
In that case I shall defer not to my gut.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:20:06 PM
The fact that you think it's a mosque is what I'm on about, here. I realize what you're saying, and you are correct in principle. However, you are operating on false data in the particulars. Happens to the best of us...Hell, I can't count the number of times Nigel and Jenne have jerked me up short when I was spewing a truism.
Pshaw. I does not. :oops:
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2010, 08:19:03 PM
Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Imam who wants the centre built, is also probably somewhere between the President of Pakistan and the King of Saudi Arabia on the Muslim extremist hitlist.
QuoteWalter Isaacson, head of The Aspen Institute, says Feisal "has participated at the Aspen Institute in Muslim-Christian-Jewish working groups looking at ways to promote greater religious tolerance. He has consistently denounced radical Islam and terrorism, and promoted a moderate and tolerant Islam."
I cant think of a better way of poking Al-Qaeda and their "lets start a clash of the civilizations" friends in the eye than letting him go right ahead.
Building on this, I want to abolish the DHS and instead set up "the Department for Trolling Al-Qaeda, and Miscellanious Other Nusiances of a Sub-state Variety", or the DTAQMONSSV for short. It's remit is that it would have the full authority of the President and Congress to do anything likely to cause targets under it's remit to bang their fists on tables and say, "fuck you, American pig-dog infidel, fuck you in the ass." For instance, dropping pork hotdogs rather than bombs on suspected Al-Qaeda compounds, holding publically announced interfaith dialogue meetings, changing all the backgrounds on suspected terrorist computers to that of Playboy models...things like that. Just fucking with them, 24/7.
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:24:41 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 08:16:31 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:09:27 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 07:56:30 PM
Personally I think the mosque borders on insensitive,
So, the propaganda about the "mosque" even works on Discordians.
What a hideous notion.
That's a gut-reaction without thinking about it. I admit I am not the most enlightened person ever, and the fact that I identify as a "Discordian" really doesn't automatically separate me from anybody else. I'm still an American and I still remember seeing what happened on 9/11, and I still carry some residual associations with respect to Islam, as uninformed and ignorant as they may be. That was the point of my post -- that the principles of what used to be called America stand higher and are more noble than many people or their daily ideas or long-held beliefs. What I was illustrating was that at least I can recognize that my gut instincts should not be manifested in law or governmental decree at the expense of other people's rights to live as they choose.
That I think the mosque is insensitive in some ways is irrelevant, and that irrelevance is what I am trying to emphasize.
But what if someone says to you, "Bullshit, it's not insensitive"?
I want to know HOW it's "insensitive" to have a religious center near the 9/11 site. Muslims died at that spot who had nothing to do with the hijackers.
So the Muslim survivors are insensitive for freely using their RIGHTS as Americans? The next extrapolatable point is "But they're not RLY FR RLS Americans if they're Muslim!"
Yeah, like I said, I don't have a good reason for feeling that way. I'm trying to express my recognition that my gut instincts are invalid in this case. It isn't about being right, it's about emotionalism. It's the same thing that's consuming the GOP and half the Democrats right now with this wave of bullshit over the Islamic Community Center ("mosque" is so much easier to type). I'm not going to say I feel good about a mosque near Ground Zero, but I
will say that my feeling bad about it
is incorrect.
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2010, 08:19:03 PM
Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Imam who wants the centre built, is also probably somewhere between the President of Pakistan and the King of Saudi Arabia on the Muslim extremist hitlist.
QuoteWalter Isaacson, head of The Aspen Institute, says Feisal "has participated at the Aspen Institute in Muslim-Christian-Jewish working groups looking at ways to promote greater religious tolerance. He has consistently denounced radical Islam and terrorism, and promoted a moderate and tolerant Islam."
I cant think of a better way of poking Al-Qaeda and their "lets start a clash of the civilizations" friends in the eye than letting him go right ahead.
The US Gov't is getting ready to send him on another peace mission. The talking bobbleheads are saying this will cause an uproar.
This would be like his 3rd or 4th such mission. :lol:
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:29:09 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2010, 08:19:03 PM
Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Imam who wants the centre built, is also probably somewhere between the President of Pakistan and the King of Saudi Arabia on the Muslim extremist hitlist.
QuoteWalter Isaacson, head of The Aspen Institute, says Feisal "has participated at the Aspen Institute in Muslim-Christian-Jewish working groups looking at ways to promote greater religious tolerance. He has consistently denounced radical Islam and terrorism, and promoted a moderate and tolerant Islam."
I cant think of a better way of poking Al-Qaeda and their "lets start a clash of the civilizations" friends in the eye than letting him go right ahead.
The US Gov't is getting ready to send him on another peace mission. The talking bobbleheads are saying this will cause an uproar.
This would be like his 3rd or 4th such mission. :lol:
Oh shit. I may need to see what Rush says about this.
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2010, 08:28:49 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2010, 08:19:03 PM
Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Imam who wants the centre built, is also probably somewhere between the President of Pakistan and the King of Saudi Arabia on the Muslim extremist hitlist.
QuoteWalter Isaacson, head of The Aspen Institute, says Feisal "has participated at the Aspen Institute in Muslim-Christian-Jewish working groups looking at ways to promote greater religious tolerance. He has consistently denounced radical Islam and terrorism, and promoted a moderate and tolerant Islam."
I cant think of a better way of poking Al-Qaeda and their "lets start a clash of the civilizations" friends in the eye than letting him go right ahead.
Building on this, I want to abolish the DHS and instead set up "the Department for Trolling Al-Qaeda, and Miscellanious Other Nusiances of a Sub-state Variety", or the DTAQMONSSV for short. It's remit is that it would have the full authority of the President and Congress to do anything likely to cause targets under it's remit to bang their fists on tables and say, "fuck you, American pig-dog infidel, fuck you in the ass." For instance, dropping pork hotdogs rather than bombs on suspected Al-Qaeda compounds, holding publically announced interfaith dialogue meetings, changing all the backgrounds on suspected terrorist computers to that of Playboy models...things like that. Just fucking with them, 24/7.
I love this. :lol: I want to join the DTAQMONSSV and serve my country.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 19, 2010, 08:29:05 PM
Yeah, like I said, I don't have a good reason for feeling that way. I'm trying to express my recognition that my gut instincts are invalid in this case. It isn't about being right, it's about emotionalism. It's the same thing that's consuming the GOP and half the Democrats right now with this wave of bullshit over the Islamic Community Center ("mosque" is so much easier to type). I'm not going to say I feel good about a mosque near Ground Zero, but I will say that my feeling bad about it is incorrect.
Well, I'm glad you are, but the thing that scares me is that this is the very thing that's carrying the tide of so-called "public" opinion these days. And the temperature checks all indicate this is a popular sentiment.
I mean, really? Are all my in-laws evil by distinction? I'm harboring one now, straight from Toronto. By way of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Is SHE evil, too?
Seems every red-neck, Tea Partying, Sarah-Palin-worshipping, have no idea what Islam is about let alone knowing personally any Muslims AT ALL, fuckhead yahoos are just ALLOWED by the mainstream to have the most assinine misdirections about what we REALLY fucking need in the US!
What a waste!
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2010, 08:28:49 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2010, 08:19:03 PM
Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Imam who wants the centre built, is also probably somewhere between the President of Pakistan and the King of Saudi Arabia on the Muslim extremist hitlist.
QuoteWalter Isaacson, head of The Aspen Institute, says Feisal "has participated at the Aspen Institute in Muslim-Christian-Jewish working groups looking at ways to promote greater religious tolerance. He has consistently denounced radical Islam and terrorism, and promoted a moderate and tolerant Islam."
I cant think of a better way of poking Al-Qaeda and their "lets start a clash of the civilizations" friends in the eye than letting him go right ahead.
Building on this, I want to abolish the DHS and instead set up "the Department for Trolling Al-Qaeda, and Miscellanious Other Nusiances of a Sub-state Variety", or the DTAQMONSSV for short. It's remit is that it would have the full authority of the President and Congress to do anything likely to cause targets under it's remit to bang their fists on tables and say, "fuck you, American pig-dog infidel, fuck you in the ass." For instance, dropping pork hotdogs rather than bombs on suspected Al-Qaeda compounds, holding publically announced interfaith dialogue meetings, changing all the backgrounds on suspected terrorist computers to that of Playboy models...things like that. Just fucking with them, 24/7.
Ha! When my husband's first stepmother went batshit insane, one thing she did when my father-in-law divorced her was to send cigars, brandy and playboy subscriptions to ALL his Afghan Doctors Association colleagues. :lulz:
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:35:38 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2010, 08:28:49 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2010, 08:19:03 PM
Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Imam who wants the centre built, is also probably somewhere between the President of Pakistan and the King of Saudi Arabia on the Muslim extremist hitlist.
QuoteWalter Isaacson, head of The Aspen Institute, says Feisal "has participated at the Aspen Institute in Muslim-Christian-Jewish working groups looking at ways to promote greater religious tolerance. He has consistently denounced radical Islam and terrorism, and promoted a moderate and tolerant Islam."
I cant think of a better way of poking Al-Qaeda and their "lets start a clash of the civilizations" friends in the eye than letting him go right ahead.
Building on this, I want to abolish the DHS and instead set up "the Department for Trolling Al-Qaeda, and Miscellanious Other Nusiances of a Sub-state Variety", or the DTAQMONSSV for short. It's remit is that it would have the full authority of the President and Congress to do anything likely to cause targets under it's remit to bang their fists on tables and say, "fuck you, American pig-dog infidel, fuck you in the ass." For instance, dropping pork hotdogs rather than bombs on suspected Al-Qaeda compounds, holding publically announced interfaith dialogue meetings, changing all the backgrounds on suspected terrorist computers to that of Playboy models...things like that. Just fucking with them, 24/7.
Ha! When my husband's first stepmother went batshit insane, one thing she did when my father-in-law divorced her was to send cigars, brandy and playboy subscriptions to ALL his Afghan Doctors Association colleagues. :lulz:
:lulz:
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:32:34 PM
Well, I'm glad you are, but the thing that scares me is that this is the very thing that's carrying the tide of so-called "public" opinion these days. And the temperature checks all indicate this is a popular sentiment.
See my new thread in Horrorology.
I have an idea, let's look at this from the MUSLIM perspective. Before 9/11, the public opinion polls couldn't have told you where the Middle East WAS on the map, let alone what type of languages were spoken there, and what sorts of religions, other than Judaism and Islam, were practiced there. No one knew a Pakistani from an Arab from an Afghan (they probably STILL don't, which is why the more distinctive turban-wearing Sikhs are often attacked in the US because they "look" the part...but they're not, sadly).
9/11 happens, and all Muslims are suddenly considered dogs. Worse than dogs, really. Dogmeat. Dogshit, even. Because the groups that happened to get an in on the American Government and therefore the American People happened to be Muslim (nevermind the strange bedfellows the US were to them before this!), all followers (and there are millions and millions) are tarred with the same damned brush.
Every wrong step by any Muslim is now a directive to treat anything and everything Muslim as badwrong and unnatural, cultish and evil. Muslims worldwide are now not victims of their own indigenous despot governments as most of them started out in the 70's, 80's and 90's during the refugee years. Instead, they are backstabbing, infiltrating, lying cheating scum.
Coming to America, they dream of a place where neighbors don't inform on one another, children can play in the streets or on the playground without bombs going off or gunfire erupting, boys and girls can integrate (admittedly, this is a YOUNG person's ideal, not the OLDER ones'), and there's FREEDOM OF RELIGION without a faction coming and bombing your place of worship.
So what are we saying to them, the American Muslims, when in their HOLIEST month of the year, during the hot, sweaty month of August for chrissakes, they cannot have a place to rest and commune?
What are we telling their children?
What are we telling ourselves?
Nasty. Terribly nasty, this whole business.
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:32:34 PM
Well, I'm glad you are, but the thing that scares me is that this is the very thing that's carrying the tide of so-called "public" opinion these days. And the temperature checks all indicate this is a popular sentiment.
I mean, really? Are all my in-laws evil by distinction? I'm harboring one now, straight from Toronto. By way of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Is SHE evil, too?
Seems every red-neck, Tea Partying, Sarah-Palin-worshipping, have no idea what Islam is about let alone knowing personally any Muslims AT ALL, fuckhead yahoos are just ALLOWED by the mainstream to have the most assinine misdirections about what we REALLY fucking need in the US!
What a waste!
Also, welcome to The Future, Jenne. :lulz:
I think I'm going to Facebook the above.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:32:34 PM
Well, I'm glad you are, but the thing that scares me is that this is the very thing that's carrying the tide of so-called "public" opinion these days. And the temperature checks all indicate this is a popular sentiment.
I mean, really? Are all my in-laws evil by distinction? I'm harboring one now, straight from Toronto. By way of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Is SHE evil, too?
Seems every red-neck, Tea Partying, Sarah-Palin-worshipping, have no idea what Islam is about let alone knowing personally any Muslims AT ALL, fuckhead yahoos are just ALLOWED by the mainstream to have the most assinine misdirections about what we REALLY fucking need in the US!
What a waste!
Also, welcome to The Future, Jenne. :lulz:
:( I knows it.
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:42:36 PM
I have an idea, let's look at this from the MUSLIM perspective. Before 9/11, the public opinion polls couldn't have told you where the Middle East WAS on the map, let alone what type of languages were spoken there, and what sorts of religions, other than Judaism and Islam, were practiced there. No one knew a Pakistani from an Arab from an Afghan (they probably STILL don't, which is why the more distinctive turban-wearing Sikhs are often attacked in the US because they "look" the part...but they're not, sadly).
9/11 happens, and all Muslims are suddenly considered dogs. Worse than dogs, really. Dogmeat. Dogshit, even. Because the groups that happened to get an in on the American Government and therefore the American People happened to be Muslim (nevermind the strange bedfellows the US were to them before this!), all followers (and there are millions and millions) are tarred with the same damned brush.
Every wrong step by any Muslim is now a directive to treat anything and everything Muslim as badwrong and unnatural, cultish and evil. Muslims worldwide are now not victims of their own indigenous despot governments as most of them started out in the 70's, 80's and 90's during the refugee years. Instead, they are backstabbing, infiltrating, lying cheating scum.
Coming to America, they dream of a place where neighbors don't inform on one another, children can play in the streets or on the playground without bombs going off or gunfire erupting, boys and girls can integrate (admittedly, this is a YOUNG person's ideal, not the OLDER ones'), and there's FREEDOM OF RELIGION without a faction coming and bombing your place of worship.
So what are we saying to them, the American Muslims, when in their HOLIEST month of the year, during the hot, sweaty month of August for chrissakes, they cannot have a place to rest and commune?
What are we telling their children?
What are we telling ourselves?
Nasty. Terribly nasty, this whole business.
:mittens:
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:45:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:32:34 PM
Well, I'm glad you are, but the thing that scares me is that this is the very thing that's carrying the tide of so-called "public" opinion these days. And the temperature checks all indicate this is a popular sentiment.
I mean, really? Are all my in-laws evil by distinction? I'm harboring one now, straight from Toronto. By way of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Is SHE evil, too?
Seems every red-neck, Tea Partying, Sarah-Palin-worshipping, have no idea what Islam is about let alone knowing personally any Muslims AT ALL, fuckhead yahoos are just ALLOWED by the mainstream to have the most assinine misdirections about what we REALLY fucking need in the US!
What a waste!
Also, welcome to The Future, Jenne. :lulz:
:( I knows it.
Yeah, the really horrible thing is that The Future is just like the past, only we make more excuses for it. It's still all about getting laid, grabbing everything you can, stirring up hatred to cover your tracks, and kicking the mortal shit out of smudgy people.
And in a hundred years, The Future will look just the same, with maybe a few more bells and whistles.
This thread makes me want to go protest outside YMCiA
or maybe steal the Jesus statue from OKC
ill probably just attend service at a mosque before the month is over
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:44:49 PM
I think I'm going to Facebook the above.
See my home page.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:47:08 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:45:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:32:34 PM
Well, I'm glad you are, but the thing that scares me is that this is the very thing that's carrying the tide of so-called "public" opinion these days. And the temperature checks all indicate this is a popular sentiment.
I mean, really? Are all my in-laws evil by distinction? I'm harboring one now, straight from Toronto. By way of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Is SHE evil, too?
Seems every red-neck, Tea Partying, Sarah-Palin-worshipping, have no idea what Islam is about let alone knowing personally any Muslims AT ALL, fuckhead yahoos are just ALLOWED by the mainstream to have the most assinine misdirections about what we REALLY fucking need in the US!
What a waste!
Also, welcome to The Future, Jenne. :lulz:
:( I knows it.
Yeah, the really horrible thing is that The Future is just like the past, only we make more excuses for it. It's still all about getting laid, grabbing everything you can, stirring up hatred to cover your tracks, and kicking the mortal shit out of smudgy people.
And in a hundred years, The Future will look just the same, with maybe a few more bells and whistles.
:( You cut me deep, Rog. Horrible Tr00f is Horrible. But I'll still rail against it, I suppose. Better than nothing?
@Aucoq: thanks!
@Peleus: You should. If you want to "get into the spirit," fast for a day and then go. It's a bit wearying.
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 08:48:52 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:44:49 PM
I think I'm going to Facebook the above.
See my home page.
NO WAY! I can't log in till after I leave work, though. I have spies at work! :(
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:49:43 PM
:( You cut me deep, Rog. Horrible Tr00f is Horrible. But I'll still rail against it, I suppose. Better than nothing?
1. Yeah, but it's still The Truth (as far as can be told, hell, a meteor might kill us all tomorrow), and there's no sense hiding from it.
2. Yeah, it's better than nothing, provided you preach to more than the choir.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 08:52:37 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:49:43 PM
:( You cut me deep, Rog. Horrible Tr00f is Horrible. But I'll still rail against it, I suppose. Better than nothing?
1. Yeah, but it's still The Truth (as far as can be told, hell, a meteor might kill us all tomorrow), and there's no sense hiding from it.
2. Yeah, it's better than nothing, provided you preach to more than the choir.
Did you not see the fread where I said I was "unpoopular"? :lulz:
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:50:14 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 08:48:52 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:44:49 PM
I think I'm going to Facebook the above.
See my home page.
NO WAY! I can't log in till after I leave work, though. I have spies at work! :(
Half of my 'friends' won't even speak to me anymore because evidently I am crazy for thinking shit like this is crazy. So now I troll them with it more and more.
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 08:54:36 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:50:14 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 08:48:52 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:44:49 PM
I think I'm going to Facebook the above.
See my home page.
NO WAY! I can't log in till after I leave work, though. I have spies at work! :(
Half of my 'friends' won't even speak to me anymore because evidently I am crazy for thinking shit like this is crazy. So now I troll them with it more and more.
Like I said, this sort of shit makes me actually GLAD to live on the surface of Mercury.
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg (http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg)
facepalm.jpg
*sigh*
and I thought my city was bad, guess it's worse in Gainsville.
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 08:54:36 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:50:14 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 08:48:52 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:44:49 PM
I think I'm going to Facebook the above.
See my home page.
NO WAY! I can't log in till after I leave work, though. I have spies at work! :(
Half of my 'friends' won't even speak to me anymore because evidently I am crazy for thinking shit like this is crazy. So now I troll them with it more and more.
Keep on a-truckin', Hawk! :D
Quote from: Dr. Vrtig0 on August 19, 2010, 08:56:53 PM
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg (http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg)
facepalm.jpg
*sigh*
and I thought my city was bad, guess it's worse in Gainsville.
"Dove World"? Do they KNOW what the dove is supposed to SYMBOLIZE? :lulz: Idiotic assholes.
Quote from: Dr. Vrtig0 on August 19, 2010, 08:56:53 PM
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg (http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg)
facepalm.jpg
*sigh*
and I thought my city was bad, guess it's worse in Gainsville.
It's still censorship, just under a pretty bow.
Quote from: Dr. Vrtig0 on August 19, 2010, 08:56:53 PM
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg (http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg)
facepalm.jpg
*sigh*
and I thought my city was bad, guess it's worse in Gainsville.
:lulz:
Florida.
:lulz:
Quote from: Jenne on August 19, 2010, 08:58:16 PM
Quote from: Dr. Vrtig0 on August 19, 2010, 08:56:53 PM
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg (http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg)
facepalm.jpg
*sigh*
and I thought my city was bad, guess it's worse in Gainsville.
"Dove World"? Do they KNOW what the dove is supposed to SYMBOLIZE? :lulz: Idiotic assholes.
In the christian world it is about god, because one supposedly found a branch and brought it back to Noah.
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 08:58:59 PM
Quote from: Dr. Vrtig0 on August 19, 2010, 08:56:53 PM
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg (http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg)
facepalm.jpg
*sigh*
and I thought my city was bad, guess it's worse in Gainsville.
It's still censorship, just under a pretty bow.
And there's no good guys. :lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 09:02:34 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 08:58:59 PM
Quote from: Dr. Vrtig0 on August 19, 2010, 08:56:53 PM
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg (http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg)
facepalm.jpg
*sigh*
and I thought my city was bad, guess it's worse in Gainsville.
It's still censorship, just under a pretty bow.
And there's no good guys. :lulz:
Of course not. If the idiots want to spend all that money buying the quoran just to burn them I say let them. They are just trolling their own silly asses.
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 09:04:19 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 09:02:34 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 08:58:59 PM
Quote from: Dr. Vrtig0 on August 19, 2010, 08:56:53 PM
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg (http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=2&tc=pg)
facepalm.jpg
*sigh*
and I thought my city was bad, guess it's worse in Gainsville.
It's still censorship, just under a pretty bow.
And there's no good guys. :lulz:
Of course not. If the idiots want to spend all that money buying the quoran just to burn them I say let them. They are just trolling their own silly asses.
Yep. Booking burning Nazis, and censorship tards.
I can't decide which is worse. :lulz:
Their =
Listen your not going to get a bigger opponent to banning a book or burning one then me. I'll even fight and defend the stupid twilight series. I find book burnings one of the the most ugly action ever imposed by humans. But by just banning the act you become what you hate. In a sense you're stop the censorship of ideas and dreams by censoring peoples ideas. Therefore they are equal no matter how noble the intentions.
For the record, I've never heard of anything good or intelligent come out of a mass book burning. The way I see it, banning a book burning is the equivalent of hating bigots on principle, until someone provides insight otherwise.
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:23:19 PM
For the record, I've never heard of anything good or intelligent come out of a mass book burning. The way I see it, banning a book burning is the equivalent of hating bigots on principle, until someone provides insight otherwise.
That being said, if I were in the position to ban a book burning, I probably would not. I would do whatever I could in my power to fuck with such people.
http://nationalrepublicantrust.com/PR_Scott_Wheelers_Strategy_for_America.html
Im not even going to quote this... just Holy Mary Mother of Mithra
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:23:19 PM
For the record, I've never heard of anything good or intelligent come out of a mass book burning. The way I see it, banning a book burning is the equivalent of hating bigots on principle, until someone provides insight otherwise.
Book burning is a hideous thing.
It's also a method of expression. Just like burning a flag, sending horrible letters to random congressmen, or putting up "Karl Popper Disapproves" stickers on buildings in the legal district (Thanks, Net!).
And by banning it, you're becoming the monster you went out to fight. Not a monster. THE monster.
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:27:45 PM
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:23:19 PM
For the record, I've never heard of anything good or intelligent come out of a mass book burning. The way I see it, banning a book burning is the equivalent of hating bigots on principle, until someone provides insight otherwise.
That being said, if I were in the position to ban a book burning, I probably would not. I would do whatever I could in my power to fuck with such people.
This is the correct motorcycle.
Either that, or sell them Korans at 300% markup. That's what "Bob" would do.
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on August 19, 2010, 09:37:57 PM
http://nationalrepublicantrust.com/PR_Scott_Wheelers_Strategy_for_America.html
Im not even going to quote this... just Holy Mary Mother of Mithra
Well, fine then.
(It's blocked.)
QuoteScott Wheeler's Strategy for America
It is time to choose sides
Now is the time to go nationwide with our effort to Stop the Ground Zero Mosque: Barack Obama – son of a Muslim father, who once declared that the "Arabic call to prayer is one of the loveliest sounds on earth at Sunset" – has endorsed the building of the Muslim's Ground Zero Mosque. He has publicly chosen sides...it's now time to force all Democrats to do the same before this election.
The National Republican Trust brought this issue onto the national stage. Now we need to ask Democrats the simple question, "Do you stand with America, or do you stand with her Enemies?" This is the key to this November's election. Could there be a more important question?
The liberal media and Democrats (sharing the same dirty bed) have whined that this mosque is not at Ground Zero, but that is an outright lie! I have been there, and I have seen where the landing gear from one of the airplanes landed on the building that Muslims now want to tear down to build their mosque.
They call it "a bridge to promote peace" to our faces, but just as I have said to the media many times now, if they really want to promote peace they can start by strongly denouncing terrorism by other radical Muslims... But they have resisted every opportunity to do that.
In my years of investigating terrorism, I have seen this dishonest strategy before; declaring "peace" the goal, when the "peace" they seek is actually Americans shackled to barbaric "Sharia Law." That's not the kind of "peace" envisioned by our Constitution.
So, it's now time to force Democrats to choose sides. We must ask, and then publicize, their answers to these questions:
1. Are you with America or against America?
2. Do you support the majority of Americans who oppose this Mosque? Or, do you continue to disregard the loud voice of the people?
3. Do you understand what many of those behind the Ground Zero Mosque are trying to do to us? Do you even care?
4. Is it acceptable to continually offend Christians and Americans first, merely to avoid discomfiting foreigners and Muslims?
5. To whom do you answer (here on Earth)?
The answers to these questions must be recorded...and then widely disseminated to the public in the form of television, radio and Internet ads so we Americans can vote them out of office!!!
To schedule an interview with Scott Wheeler, please contact Nick Chandler at (310) 560-7010, nchandler.goptrust@gmail.com.
Heard that song before...but where...?
The way this is starting to go, expect another Kristallnacht. Hey, the Teabaggers are pretty good at breaking windows, as I recall...
Also lol "In my years of investigating terrorism, I have seen this dishonest strategy before; declaring "peace" the goal, when the "peace" they seek is actually Americans shackled to barbaric "Sharia Law.""
I'm willing to bet I've investigated much more terrorism than Mr Wheeler, either past or present threats. But then, I suspect a five year old child also has at least equivalent experience in this field as him.
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2010, 09:47:45 PM
QuoteScott Wheeler's Strategy for America
It is time to choose sides
Now is the time to go nationwide with our effort to Stop the Ground Zero Mosque: Barack Obama – son of a Muslim father, who once declared that the "Arabic call to prayer is one of the loveliest sounds on earth at Sunset" – has endorsed the building of the Muslim's Ground Zero Mosque. He has publicly chosen sides...it's now time to force all Democrats to do the same before this election.
The National Republican Trust brought this issue onto the national stage. Now we need to ask Democrats the simple question, "Do you stand with America, or do you stand with her Enemies?" This is the key to this November's election. Could there be a more important question?
The liberal media and Democrats (sharing the same dirty bed) have whined that this mosque is not at Ground Zero, but that is an outright lie! I have been there, and I have seen where the landing gear from one of the airplanes landed on the building that Muslims now want to tear down to build their mosque.
They call it "a bridge to promote peace" to our faces, but just as I have said to the media many times now, if they really want to promote peace they can start by strongly denouncing terrorism by other radical Muslims... But they have resisted every opportunity to do that.
In my years of investigating terrorism, I have seen this dishonest strategy before; declaring "peace" the goal, when the "peace" they seek is actually Americans shackled to barbaric "Sharia Law." That's not the kind of "peace" envisioned by our Constitution.
So, it's now time to force Democrats to choose sides. We must ask, and then publicize, their answers to these questions:
1. Are you with America or against America?
2. Do you support the majority of Americans who oppose this Mosque? Or, do you continue to disregard the loud voice of the people?
3. Do you understand what many of those behind the Ground Zero Mosque are trying to do to us? Do you even care?
4. Is it acceptable to continually offend Christians and Americans first, merely to avoid discomfiting foreigners and Muslims?
5. To whom do you answer (here on Earth)?
The answers to these questions must be recorded...and then widely disseminated to the public in the form of television, radio and Internet ads so we Americans can vote them out of office!!!
To schedule an interview with Scott Wheeler, please contact Nick Chandler at (310) 560-7010, nchandler.goptrust@gmail.com.
Note: I tried to stay out of this topic, since politics always piss me off, but this issue has been grating on my nerves, and this particular article crossed one line too many.
1. Against.
2. Fuck the people.
3. Do you?
4. Yes.
5. Not a damn being.
I feel slightly better now.
Which copy of pd should I burn for youtube...
Yellow reprint (its from 2007) or SteveJ's
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 09:39:10 PM
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:23:19 PM
For the record, I've never heard of anything good or intelligent come out of a mass book burning. The way I see it, banning a book burning is the equivalent of hating bigots on principle, until someone provides insight otherwise.
Book burning is a hideous thing.
It's also a method of expression. Just like burning a flag, sending horrible letters to random congressmen, or putting up "Karl Popper Disapproves" stickers on buildings in the legal district (Thanks, Net!).
And by banning it, you're becoming the monster you went out to fight. Not a monster. THE monster.
:)
QuoteThat being said, if I were in the position to ban a book burning, I probably would not. I would do whatever I could in my power to fuck with such people.
^This
If they're on their own property, and they're not hurting anyone, and spent their own money on it, I say let em have at it.. doesn't stop me from fucking with them and anyone else who agrees with them but yeah.. I can completely diagree with book burning on a primal level, and still not in good conscious say that it should be banned as a means of expression, no matter how fucking retarded it might be.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 09:40:04 PM
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:27:45 PM
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:23:19 PM
For the record, I've never heard of anything good or intelligent come out of a mass book burning. The way I see it, banning a book burning is the equivalent of hating bigots on principle, until someone provides insight otherwise.
That being said, if I were in the position to ban a book burning, I probably would not. I would do whatever I could in my power to fuck with such people.
This is the correct motorcycle.
Either that, or sell them Korans at 300% markup. That's what "Bob" would do.
Fuck thats a good idea.
Where are these Koran burnings taking place?
This thread has much of the ridiculous type.
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:23:19 PM
For the record, I've never heard of anything good or intelligent come out of a mass book burning. The way I see it, banning a book burning is the equivalent of hating bigots on principle, until someone provides insight otherwise.
Censorship is censorship and it is wrong.
EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH WHAT THEY ARE SAYING.
FOR FUCKS SAKE.
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:23:19 PM
For the record, I've never heard of anything good or intelligent come out of a mass book burning. The way I see it, banning a book burning is the equivalent of hating bigots on principle, until someone provides insight otherwise.
Just cause you've never heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It could serve as a catalyst for protest. I know that KKK rallies also served as a rallying point for all the anti-racist organizations, so much so that the KKK stopped holding their annual rally where I live a few years before I arrived, and the grand dragon lives one town down. I am also positive that book sellers love book burnings. Bigots wasting their money to stimulate the economy sounds like a good thing to me. The Muslims that get the most pissed about this are going to be mostly the sort that need a good trolling anyways.
Quote from: Dr. Vrtig0 on August 19, 2010, 11:16:23 PM
QuoteThat being said, if I were in the position to ban a book burning, I probably would not. I would do whatever I could in my power to fuck with such people.
^This
If they're on their own property, and they're not hurting anyone, and spent their own money on it, I say let em have at it.. doesn't stop me from fucking with them and anyone else who agrees with them but yeah.. I can completely diagree with book burning on a primal level, and still not in good conscious say that it should be banned as a means of expression, no matter how fucking retarded it might be.
Personally I think showing up with a bible, making sure to let them see what it was, and then burning that would be a fun addition to the party.
For extra bonus points, make it a Catholic Bible, and see if you can get them fighting with each other over whether that's ok.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 20, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
For extra bonus points, make it a Catholic Bible, and see if you can get them fighting with each other over whether that's ok.
Or maybe the book of Mormon.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 20, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
For extra bonus points, make it a Catholic Bible, and see if you can get them fighting with each other over whether that's ok.
It's okay, they can just burn the parts that aren't in the "regular" Bible.
Missing the point ITT.
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 20, 2010, 04:06:46 AM
Missing the point ITT.
Nope, just also talking about methods of trolling book burners.
Dude, just use Koran covers and put all sorts of random shit inside - Alice in Wonderland, Wizard of Oz, Harry Potter - to sell at 300% mark-up. it would be hilarious when singed pages of children stories start wafting around in the wind.
"OH MY GOD, WHAT HAVE I DONE? MY CHILD'S HEROS ARE ON FIRE!"
But yeah. I'm against book burning. It breaks my withered husk of a heart break because, eh, TMI. Anyway, I don't like it but I agree that it's a form of expression. I'm against burning the flag in protest, but mostly because burning a flag is one of two acceptable ways to 'retire' an old flag when you've replaced it. It seems to lose something of its impact, for me, when there's a legitimate reason for burning it . . .
But it's a moot point in newsland, here in Gawguh. They've already moved on to focus on this "Snookie" person who got arrested for being 'criminally annoying'. Haven't seen anything about Ground-Zero-Mosque all day.
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 20, 2010, 01:38:12 AM
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:23:19 PM
For the record, I've never heard of anything good or intelligent come out of a mass book burning. The way I see it, banning a book burning is the equivalent of hating bigots on principle, until someone provides insight otherwise.
Censorship is censorship and it is wrong.
EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH WHAT THEY ARE SAYING.
FOR FUCKS SAKE.
Thanks for reading ahead, chief. We're past censorship, and onto fuckery and trolling.
I wonder if there's any way to get an accelerant into the books... It would be quite lovely if the fire got out of control, and accidentally burned down the church.
Or, what about cutting out a hole the the middle of the pages (a la The Shawshank Redemption), and filling it with gunpowder?
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:27:45 PM
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:23:19 PM
For the record, I've never heard of anything good or intelligent come out of a mass book burning. The way I see it, banning a book burning is the equivalent of hating bigots on principle, until someone provides insight otherwise.
That being said, if I were in the position to ban a book burning, I probably would not. I would do whatever I could in my power to fuck with such people.
THIS!
Also, a dove in Christianity also symbolizes the Holy Ghost/Spirit from when it came and poomped on Jesus head as he was baptized.*
*I do not have firm documentation for the poomp, but then I don't have firm documentation for the dove, the Holy Ghost or Jesus... so there!
Doves are jerks. And, lest we forget, pigeons as well.
Not to be a pedant, but the dove symbolizes beauty, peace and harmony in the Bible, over and over. There's about 50 mentionings of it (http://www.bible-topics.com/Dove-The.html) and so forth. Most allegorical statements (the HS descending "like a dove" on Jesus's shoulders after John the Beheade--I mean Baptist dunked him, etc.) were made using this bird as a sign of peace and calm. It was also the bird that showed Noah the lands were drying as it came back back with the branch, and when it stoped returning to Noah, he knew it was time to get off the ark.
The point I was making about the dove is that it's seen as a bird of quiet joy and peace in our common Western culture, as well as in the Bible.
That's sorta NOT the point of burning the Qu'uran.
And seagulls are total assholes.
Quote from: Jenne on August 20, 2010, 03:37:37 PM
The point I was making about the dove is that it's seen as a bird of quiet joy and peace in our common Western culture, as well as in the Bible
Except when they shit all over the Baby Jebus' head.
No, owls are the real assholes.
Quote from: Cain on August 20, 2010, 03:46:01 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 20, 2010, 03:37:37 PM
The point I was making about the dove is that it's seen as a bird of quiet joy and peace in our common Western culture, as well as in the Bible
Except when they shit all over the Baby Jebus' head.
Well, there's that.
And Kai, Squiddy's gonna gitcha.
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/08/17/cordoba-house-the-acid-test/
QuoteThe cable news channels have been consumed with the "Ground Zero mosque" 24/7, to the virtual exclusion of all else: it's an "issue" made for them, and they're eating it up. I'm soooo glad we don't have anything else to worry about: that the economy is just rolling merrily along, people are not losing their homes, and everything is just hunky-dory in the good ol' US of A, land of peace and plenty. Why else would our "leaders" in both parties be commenting on what, in a rational society, would not even come up for discussion?
Too bad we aren't living a rational society, or even anything close. That's the first thought that crossed my mind as I sat down, today, to once again examine this manufactured controversy. Which led logically and naturally to this second thought: manufactured by whom, and for what purpose?
Is it me, or does anyone else find it passing strange that – at a time when conservatives are on the ascendant, with this administration's increasingly unpopular economic program under attack from all sides – that the American right-wing is taking up yet another nasty-minded "cultural" issue? Forget the bank bailouts, don't worry about the nationalization of large swathes of the American economy (banking, healthcare, housing), and try to forget that China owns us – what's really really wrong with America is that the New York City government is allowing a mosque to be built within a four-block radius of where the World Trade Center once stood.
Never mind that it isn't a mosque, and that we're talking about four New York City blocks, which, where I come from, is the equivalent of the other side of town. Also please ignore the fact that there are already mosques in the vicinity – go here for the Google map – and not only that, but what about all those Muslims living and working in the general vicinity? Isn't their mere presence a slap in the face? What about Alfanoose, the excellent Arabic restaurant a few blocks away, where customers regularly consume such pro-terrorist items as lamb shawarma? Not to mention falafels!
And it isn't just those rag-heads we need to cleanse from the streets of Lower Manhattan. Right in the same neighborhood is the headquarters of the National Lawyers Guild, one of whose members, Lynn Stewart, the 70-year-old attorney for accused terrorist Omar Abdel Rahman, was jailed for ten years for "materially supporting terrorism." White radicals are just as bad as the terrorists they defend, and they have to go, too.
And what about the Mayor of New York City, Mr. Bloomberg: should he be allowed to set foot anywhere near the Sacred Zone? After all, he's defending Cordoba House: indeed, he's the only politician I know of, other than – to some degree – the President, who is standing up for the terrorists – uh, I mean the builders of the mosque – and therefore he, too, should be banished from that holy precinct. And why stop with Lower Manhattan, anyway? Let's extend the ban to all of New York City: after all, the 9/11 attacks were aimed the whole of the Big Bad Apple, and certainly people in all boroughs were traumatized, perhaps they lost loved ones.
But why stop there? Indeed, the power-hungry demagogues who are trying to ride this issue haven't stopped there, and are avidly trying to bring their campaign to the whole country. The idea is to stop the construction of any new mosques, anywhere, using building codes and public pressure to shut them down. The lunatic Pamela Geller – who believes Malcom X is Obama's real father – and her "Stop the Islamization of America" stormtroopers have coalesced with Newt Gingrich, and are putting on a Sept. 11 rally at the World Trade Center site. Gingrich, rather than accept his has-been status and fade away gracefully, has decided to reinvent himself as the American Geert Wilders, the Dutch politician who has made a career out of stigmatizing Muslims and campaigning to impose legal restrictions on the immigrant Islamic community. Wilders, who was refused entry to Britain on the grounds that they don't let hate-mongers in, will have no trouble gaining entry to the US on September 11, when he's a scheduled speaker at the hate rally. He'll stand alongside Rep. Peter King, the New York Republican congressman whose history of palling around with the Irish Republican Army would seem to make him an unlikely speaker at an "anti-terrorist" event.
The cynical Gingrich bellows that Cordoba House should not be built until and unless a synagogue is allowed to be built in Saudi Arabia, knowing perfectly well that the group behind the project is not Wahabi – the Saudis' strict sect – but Sufi, the most peaceful and anti-jihadist of the various strains of Islam. That isn't stopping him from trying to revive his previously dead political career with yet another Republican "wedge" issue.
Somewhere, Osama bin Laden is smiling, delighted to discover a good chunk of American opinion agrees with him that Islam, by its very nature, is antithetical to the US and everything it stands for – a premise that puts us at war with over a billion people. He's smiling because Gingrich is doing his evil work for him, striking a blow against our security far more effectively than anything al-Qaeda has so far managed to pull off. Polls show bin Laden & Co. are losing whatever popularity they once enjoyed in the Muslim world, with only 6 percent considering the Evil One an admirable figure. Oh, but don't worry: Gingrich and the Anti-Defamation League are doing everything they can to rectify that.
President Obama, in reaffirming his support for religious tolerance in the US, noted that "this is America." Yes, it surely is, but what kind of an America?
Right now, that's an open question, and I frankly fear the answer. With Senator Harry Reid coming out against Obama's civil libertarian stance, and several Democrats following his lead, it looks like the herd is stampeding in one direction and one direction only. This is what our politicians think of the American people – that we're a bunch of intolerant unthinking idiots who quickly form a lynch mob at the least provocation.
Now that it's politically incorrect to stigmatize or legally punish blacks, the lynchers have targeted a new victim: Muslims are the new Negroes. It may very well take a civil rights movement at least as persistent and brave as the one that acted on behalf of African Americans to stave off the gathering threat.
There is, however, a bright side to all this: in spite of backing down a bit later, the President's statement and the venue in which he made it was heartening. I must say, however, that's the first time I've ever heard Obama mount a defense of private property rights!
Which underscores a point libertarians have often made: that the freedoms we all take for granted are predicated on the centrality of private property as the very basis of our civilization and true liberalism (in the classical sense). There is no freedom of the press if you can't own a press (or a web site). There can be no political and religious freedom without economic freedom.
One would think all libertarians understand this, and are rising to defend Cordoba House – and Muslims all across America – from would-be cultural commissars who would determine who may and may not build a house of worship here in the land of the free. So far, however, I've yet to see a single politician who habitually rails against "Big Government" even take a position on the New York mosque issue, let alone take the right one. Where are ya, fellas? The silence is deafening.
I used to think we were better than that: and by "we," I don't just mean libertarians, but the whole damned country. Can it really be true that people will fall for this kind of obvious emotional manipulation and demagoguery?
I refuse to believe it. If only the President hadn't backed away, no doubt heeding the advice of his pollsters and political hatchet men, he could have turned this into a teachable moment, and shown his capacity for real leadership. The average American hates a bully, and the clownish Gingrich is such a vulnerable target: a veritable piñata waiting to be burst. The first major political figure to step forward and do the honors will find he or she has more support than they ever imagined.
This is really the acid test for civil libertarians of both the left and the right, because if the lynch mob succeeds it will set a terrible precedent – one we may all come to regret only when it's too late.
Raimondo is one of those libertarians who actually mostly makes sense. Here he is on top form.
I know there is a crazy amount of articles now in this thread but I loved this one...
:lol:
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/politics/3138/dangerous_religion/
Quote
What is the most dangerous religion in America?
A slightly loaded question that no one in their right mind would attempt to answer, no? But it is a question at the heart of the debates surrounding mosques and Muslims in America today. The opposition against building an Islamic center near the site where the World Trade Center once stood, and the growing outcry around the country about the creation of other Muslim places to gather and worship, suggests that many Americans are not afraid to answer the question without hesitation.
In the post 9/11 world we now live in, Islam poses the greatest threat to American lives and security, a nefarious, fanatical religion that can bring death and destruction to innocent people, that disregards our laws and codes of conduct, and that is prone to acts of violence beyond the pale of civilized society. At least this is the message we are hearing more and more frequently in the news, especially in the wake of President Obama's recent statements; views espoused by religious and political leaders as well as average American citizens fearful of Muslims abroad and at home.
But perhaps it might be worthwhile to take a step back from all the heated rhetoric and passionate emotions fueling the fires of hatred and distrust in the current moment and take a brief look into the past. In the pre-9/11 world and backward through time to the founding of this great country, a historical perspective leads to a very different picture about religious violence and what religion poses the greatest threat to American lives. Anyone who takes the time to research and reflect on the nation's past might be led to believe that Christianity has been the most dangerous and violent religion in the United States, that it is a religion inspiring bloodshed and discrimination, hatred and terrorist acts against people understood to be infidels, subhuman, or simply different.
"Christianity" of course is a meaningless label, as I've written before. Like "Islam" it is too broad a category to cover the radically diverse practices, beliefs, and interpretive communities associated with it. So let me be even bolder and say that Protestants, and even more specifically, Anglo-European Protestant men, would appear to be the most dangerous religious individuals in American history. Without question white Protestant males from the colonial era to the dawn of the twenty-first century have inflicted more pain, more suffering, more terror than any other individuals in this so-called "city on a hill."
This historical perspective is placed in sharp relief by a new book that coincidentally arrived in the mail as I was preparing to write this piece last week. Religious Intolerance in America: A Documentary History, edited by John Corrigan and Lynn S. Neal, is chock full of fascinating documentation pointing to this interpretation, providing evidence that throughout US history the perpetrators of religiously-inspired violence have usually been white Protestant men fearful of non-Protestant communities. It's an easy case to make with or without the book when commonly known events from historical eras are brought to mind:
• In colonial America, Protestant men burned witches at the stake, hanged Quakers on the gallows, destroyed indigenous surrounding cultures, and supported the heinous slave trade bringing Africans to North America.
• In the early national period and through the antebellum era, white Protestant males continued the wanton devastation of Native American tribes as the American territories expanded, inflicted horrible suffering on slaves by tearing families apart, raping innocent women, and killing blacks as if they were not human beings, murdered Joseph Smith and harassed early Mormon followers, and discriminated against Catholics in both subtle and overtly hostile acts of violence.
• In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, men associated with Protestant churches espoused awful anti-Semitic views that led to the lynching of Leo Frank and a host of discriminatory practices against Jews, harassed freed blacks and others by wearing white hoods and engaging in despicable, cowardly, and murderous acts, and enacted numerous policies that forced Native peoples to convert to Christianity.
• From the early decades of the twentieth century on through to the end of the twentieth century, white Protestants made sure that Japanese Americans were placed in internment camps on the west coast, joined a variety of Christian militia movements spread across rural America that promoted violence against the federal government, and participated in a range of hate crimes against blacks, gays, and others deemed to be enemies worthy of discrimination and brutality.
Is it fair to generalize?
Throughout American history white Protestant men enjoyed privilege and opportunities not available to others, and asserted that the destiny of the nation belonged to them under the providential power of their God. And they had no qualms about creating laws to oppress those less fortunate or taking the law into their own hands to lash out against the perceived threats to their version of a Christian nation. Racist views, economic injustices, and political machinations were rationalized by religiously-inspired, divinely-sanctioned hatred emanating from the home, the streets, and even, at times, from the churches they attended.
Did every single white Protestant male share exactly the same perspectives on blacks, Native Americans, Catholics, gays, and others? Were all white Protestant men guilty of heinous actions based on the cruelties and violence perpetrated by segments of the Protestant communities? Is it fair to generalize about an entire religion by singling out the acts of specific individuals associated with that religion?
Using the same logic as those who group all Muslims under one America-hating banner, the answer would appear to be yes. And if we follow this same ignorant logic, it would indeed make sense to begin protesting the building of Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist churches near hallowed sites that are supposed to symbolize the highest ideals and values of the American experiment: religious freedom, opportunity for all, equality before the law, sacrifice for a greater good, and so on. Forget about diversity within white Protestantism — the Social Gospel and pacifists, or communitarian movements and Unitarianism — in this worldview.
But no one in their right mind would use the kind of simplistic, odious, ill-informed logic we hear so frequently in the news and originating from the blogosphere and mainstream media about Muslims. Muslim-Americans who worked and died in the World Trade Center, who are pillars of their local communities, who participate in significant interfaith efforts — all of these religious human beings are utterly and completely disregarded in the vile rhetoric spewing from those who oppose ensuring Muslims have the same rights as other Americans. Even white Protestant Americans who belong to the same religion as those in the past who have been killers, fanatics, and terrorists.
Yeah, but you know, pointing out red herrings and historical backgrounds does nothing for these folks. They'd just call you names.
See, I really thought America was better educated than this.
Fuck me running, I was WRONG WRONG WRONG.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-19-2010/extremist-makeover---homeland-edition
23 skidooo :lulz:
eta: sorry quote is from http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-19-2010/extremist-makeover---team-mohammed-vs--team-jesus
Quote from: Jenne on August 20, 2010, 09:44:27 PM
Yeah, but you know, pointing out red herrings and historical backgrounds does nothing for these folks. They'd just call you names.
See, I really thought America was better educated than this.
Fuck me running, I was WRONG WRONG WRONG.
It's how America has always been...
I was talking to a friend in Brussels a few days ago and they asked "Do you know how the rest of the world sees America?" I said something like "Jerks, Bullys" or something like that, and they replied... "No... Murderers. You are a nation founded on murder, bound together by murder, you murder those who disagree with you, you murder your fellow countrymen and you invade and murder in any nation you feel like."
I hadn't really considered it that way before. :horrormirth:
I've heard it all. All. Remember: the Afghan ties that bind. But yeah, I've heard we are soulless, we are immoral, depraved, murdering thieves, selfish.
In the world at large, we have the opposite rep that we pride ourselves on.
Quote from: Jenne on August 20, 2010, 09:49:55 PM
I've heard it all. All. Remember: the Afghan ties that bind. But yeah, I've heard we are soulless, we are immoral, depraved, murdering thieves, selfish.
In the world at large, we have the opposite rep that we pride ourselves on.
I think for me, it was the shock of delivery... it wasn't like "YOu are all horrible evil monsters..." it was just a simple statement "You are murderers.." Like saying "you are bankers" or "You are merchants" ... just a sort of matter of fact resigned statement of fact.
I was gonna respond and point out that most countries are founded on murdering indigenous populations and each other and their enemies... but I didn't... cause it felt like a justified comment.
I was weirded out.
I-RON-EEEEEEEEEE ALERT:
One of the tards on TCC just stated that religious freedom should be subordinate to national security objectives...and he has a Benjamin Franklin quote in his sig.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
well it's good that pagans never talk about religious persecution, cause that would make him a hypocrite
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on August 20, 2010, 10:46:28 PM
well it's good that pagans never talk about religious persecution, cause that would make him a hypocrite
NEVER AGAIN TEH BURNING TIEMS!!!!
Unless we're burning muslims... thats ok.
Quote from: Jenne on August 20, 2010, 03:37:56 PM
And seagulls are total assholes.
Seagulls are one of my favorite birds (although yes, they certainly can be assholes)
Quote from: Ratatosk on August 20, 2010, 09:48:02 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 20, 2010, 09:44:27 PM
Yeah, but you know, pointing out red herrings and historical backgrounds does nothing for these folks. They'd just call you names.
See, I really thought America was better educated than this.
Fuck me running, I was WRONG WRONG WRONG.
It's how America has always been...
I was talking to a friend in Brussels a few days ago and they asked "Do you know how the rest of the world sees America?" I said something like "Jerks, Bullys" or something like that, and they replied... "No... Murderers. You are a nation founded on murder, bound together by murder, you murder those who disagree with you, you murder your fellow countrymen and you invade and murder in any nation you feel like."
I hadn't really considered it that way before. :horrormirth:
I'd kinda prefer a rep as a murderer to one as a jerk and a bully. You don't fuck with murderers.
Quote from: Ratatosk on August 21, 2010, 12:13:00 AM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on August 20, 2010, 10:46:28 PM
well it's good that pagans never talk about religious persecution, cause that would make him a hypocrite
NEVER AGAIN TEH BURNING TIEMS!!!!
Unless we're burning muslims... thats ok.
The best part of the Burning Times thing is trying to get people to agree on how many people were killed. I've heard everything from two people to twenty million.
Can one even run for election while behind bars, or you talking about a different kinda rep.
Quote from: Cain on August 20, 2010, 10:35:51 PM
I-RON-EEEEEEEEEE ALERT:
One of the tards on TCC just stated that religious freedom should be subordinate to national security objectives...and he has a Benjamin Franklin quote in his sig.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
It didn't look to me like Blue said that. But then I tend to read things much more charitably than you do. (mind you, I still think Blue is an asshat, mostly based on his view of women and some of his other threads)
Quote from: curiosity on August 21, 2010, 03:20:27 AM
Quote from: Ratatosk on August 21, 2010, 12:13:00 AM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on August 20, 2010, 10:46:28 PM
well it's good that pagans never talk about religious persecution, cause that would make him a hypocrite
NEVER AGAIN TEH BURNING TIEMS!!!!
Unless we're burning muslims... thats ok.
The best part of the Burning Times thing is trying to get people to agree on how many people were killed. I've heard everything from two people to twenty million.
Depends greatly on how you count.
...
Everytime a book comes out the number changes. I think the largest number is 100 000. But the known records are around 12 000. Also the Witch craze didn't happen till the 1500's. The inquisition started earlier, but witchcraft was not considered a crime or even real. Also they were more interested if Christians believed the power of the Papacy and not the if they liked to cast magic spells in their chicken bone hut. The early date comes from the legend of Madonna Oriente http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_Oriente which may have not even happened. It wasn't till the 1480's that the church got involved in the business of magic and even then they didn't take it serious. Superstitious villagers did and to be honest a lot of it had to do with a conservative backlash against woman becoming more powerful and independent during the middle ages, especially after the black death due to a labor shortage. That and people felt with the influx of new ideas and a powerful Muslim state on their borders that the Christian Empire was collapsing. Also don't underestimate the power of the fall of the Holy Roman Empire in Germany. It's no coincidence that the majority of trials took place in German states.
It's the age old question of the religion vs. the practitioner, TI, but I'd posit that "TEH CHURCH" that is behind Christianity has committed PLENTY of atrocities through time.
I don't think religion had pretty much anything to do with it, just as I don't think religion has very little to do with islamophobia today.
Well, the "religion" vs. those who were/are in power through religion and its followers. The actual religion as set IN a book (that has dubious historical continuity in and of itself, something Islam can ACTUALLY lay claim to) is subject to so much interpretation that it's rarely separated from its zealots.
Though I'd say there's plenty of misogyny and bigotry in the Bible to justify it as being an instigator.
...and actually, I agree that the RELIGION of Islam is not to blame for peoples' bigotry towards Muslims, who are as much as a monolith as Christians.
Most of this originated on FoxNews in which anything anti-government is good, and the altasshrugs blog, a blog which makes Glenn Beck seem like a moderate.
Then it's just fear of the unknown. You can replace Islam with something nonreligious and not well understood by most Americans and have the same well orchestrated campaign of fear and you will get the same response.
Totally. And this is NOT the first time this has happened in the US, let alone NYC.
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on August 22, 2010, 07:48:15 PM
Most of this originated on FoxNews in which anything anti-government is good,
Unless its the government stepping on brown people or people that aren't Christian of course.
Quote from: Kingderp on August 19, 2010, 11:59:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 09:40:04 PM
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:27:45 PM
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:23:19 PM
For the record, I've never heard of anything good or intelligent come out of a mass book burning. The way I see it, banning a book burning is the equivalent of hating bigots on principle, until someone provides insight otherwise.
That being said, if I were in the position to ban a book burning, I probably would not. I would do whatever I could in my power to fuck with such people.
This is the correct motorcycle.
Either that, or sell them Korans at 300% markup. That's what "Bob" would do.
Fuck thats a good idea.
Where are these Koran burnings taking place?
Of course, they should burn only the expensive bound, illustrated full-colour glossy version. After all, if they don't they might as well burn a stack of photocopies printed off the Internets, and where's the message in that, eh?
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on August 22, 2010, 07:48:15 PM
Most of this originated on FoxNews in which anything anti-government is good, and the altasshrugs blog, a blog which makes Glenn Beck seem like a moderate.
Then it's just fear of the unknown. You can replace Islam with something nonreligious and not well understood by most Americans and have the same well orchestrated campaign of fear and you will get the same response.
Yeah, not long ago it was Communism.
Quote from: Triple Zero on August 22, 2010, 10:43:16 PM
Quote from: Kingderp on August 19, 2010, 11:59:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 09:40:04 PM
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:27:45 PM
Quote from: Risus on August 19, 2010, 09:23:19 PM
For the record, I've never heard of anything good or intelligent come out of a mass book burning. The way I see it, banning a book burning is the equivalent of hating bigots on principle, until someone provides insight otherwise.
That being said, if I were in the position to ban a book burning, I probably would not. I would do whatever I could in my power to fuck with such people.
This is the correct motorcycle.
Either that, or sell them Korans at 300% markup. That's what "Bob" would do.
Fuck thats a good idea.
Where are these Koran burnings taking place?
Of course, they should burn only the expensive bound, illustrated full-colour glossy version. After all, if they don't they might as well burn a stack of photocopies printed off the Internets, and where's the message in that, eh?
I wonder if I could charge more for "extra-flammable" and "Slow burning" varieties. Perhaps you could soak them in some sort of incense and then call them scented Korans(of course charging extra for this as well). After all, what would you rather smell while your Koran burns? Nasty black paper smoke, or soothing Vanilla.
Another Idea would be to dip into both markets. Sell Korans to the protesters and Copies of the first amendment to counter-protesters.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on August 23, 2010, 01:08:50 AM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on August 22, 2010, 07:48:15 PM
Most of this originated on FoxNews in which anything anti-government is good, and the altasshrugs blog, a blog which makes Glenn Beck seem like a moderate.
Then it's just fear of the unknown. You can replace Islam with something nonreligious and not well understood by most Americans and have the same well orchestrated campaign of fear and you will get the same response.
Yeah, not long ago it was Communism.
Fuck, they are still yelling about socialism when no politician in America is within spitting distance of socialism.
So I had a long talk yesterday with a Brooklynite friend of mine. Despite being extremely liberal, he's admittedly not a big fan of Islam, and opposes the mosque. He pointed out that recent polls lean towards rejection of the mosque. I did some research, and yeah, the polls show that somewhere between 50 and 60% of new yorkers don't want an islamic center there. A smaller percentage, somewhere between 20 and 30%, feel it would be fine. (another a large portion did not care one way or the other)
My friend felt that he would be more trusting if the islamic organization made a statement clearly separating themselves from the terrorists, saudi arabian funding, etc etc. If they got up on a soap box and said "We are against terrorism and think 9/11 sucked," it would probably win some people over. But according to him, they've been very elusive and dodgey about their position, where they're getting their money, etc. He also admits that he finds it hard to find objective information about this group - all the media agencies already have an agenda, so the reporting isn't being very fair.
To me, this discussion seems divided into two incongruent sides. In my perception, the media has facilitated two intractable islands:
1. This is America and Americans have the right to start a religious organization wherever the fuck they want.
2. Building a mosque right there is incredibly rude, kind of like protesting at a funeral.
The problem is, these questions aren't pointed in the same direction. The second camp is not necessarily arguing that Americans shouldn't have the right to build there. My buddy (who is again, extremely liberal but against the mosque) thinks that they absolutely have the right to build there, he's not objecting to that. He just thinks its tasteless.
Meanwhile, let's entertain the notion for a second that these Muslim guys ARE actually connected to Evil Forces Which Conspire to Destroy AmericaTM. If this were true, objecting to their presence (but not their right to be present) doesn't seem as egregious, right? In that light, it seems like it would go a long way to resolve this tension if the muslim group publicly clarified their position on all the evil things they are being suspected of.
all this being said, I admit I haven't done my google homework on the group. Maybe they've already said "Hey, we totally don't like those Hamas spags." IMO their best course of action is to help Americans understand the distinction between american muslims and the religious whackjobs who crashed a plane into our balls.
Interestingly, I was just reading a Slate article about this: http://www.slate.com/id/2264754/
QuoteOne by one, the arguments against the proposed Islamic community center and mosque near Ground Zero have collapsed. A "13-story mosque"? No such plan. "At Ground Zero"? Wrong again. The imam's radical politics? A myth. His shadowy jihadist financiers? Imagined. His failure to denounce terrorism? Debunked. The "angry battle" he's "stoking"? Please. The guy isn't even returning phone calls. The anger and stoking have come from the other side.
So the mosque's opponents have fallen back on one last argument: sensitivity.
QuoteThey're searching our sensitivity for an underlying rationale that justifies the exclusion of mosques from the vicinity of Ground Zero. And they aren't finding one.
What they're finding instead is group blame. The destruction of the World Trade Center "was an attack in the name of Islam," says Giuliani. "It was a perverted type of Islam, but a kind of prevalent view that goes on in a lot of parts of the world. So we've got to be sensitive to everybody here." Lowry draws a similar connection: "It is true that Islam as such is not responsible for 9/11, but symbolism and the sensibilities of New Yorkers and victims of 9/11 can't be discounted."
QuoteThis is the true thinking behind the anti-mosque sensitivity: Muslims committed the massacre. Therefore, no Muslim house of worship should be built there.
QuoteBut if our revulsion at the idea of a mosque near Ground Zero is irrational—if it's based on group blame and a failure to distinguish Islam from terrorism—then maybe it isn't the mosque's planners who need to rise above their emotions. Maybe it's the rest of us.
QuoteOnce we recognize the sensitivity argument for what it is—an appeal to feelings we can't morally justify—there's no good reason why the Islamic center shouldn't be built at its planned site, in the neighborhood where its imam already preaches and its members work and congregate. Asking them to reorder their lives to accommodate our instinctive reaction is wrong. We can transcend that reaction, and we should.
Jon Stewart did an EXCELLENT job highlighting the fact that reactionaryism on any level is not good for our country/society, and that it's easy to inject into our knee-jerk movements the sense of righteousness that only has surface and not true deeper potential.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-19-2010/extremist-makeover---homeland-edition
The Cordoba Initative are one of the best known interfaith movements trying to work for peace between religious communities in the world. The name itself is taken from the (historically dubious but well known Islamic) narrative that Cordoba, under the Umayyad Caliphate, was a place where Muslims, Christians and Jews all lived together in peace and harmony.
Plus, the Imam not only has close links to the Aspen Institute, including such dangerous radicals as, er, Madeleine Albright, Henry Louis Gates, David Koch of Koch Industries, the CEO of Wachovia and Condi Rice, among others, he also has members of the Aspen Institute sitting on his own board of members. The guy's as establishment as you can get without being appointed Chief Poobah of Islam by Hillary Clinton and Robert Gates.
yeah, reading up on the group a bit further, I think they're saying the right things, they're just not saying them loudly enough. I imagine this is largely because the opposition has far more microphones available. I think a crisp, peaceful message would be able to cut through a lot of the noise. Reading the guy's wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feisal_Abdul_Rauf), I'm surprised that he's so controversial - hes even written books about why America is awesome. He is kind of smudgy looking I guess.
"Guy saying sensible things most of our audience agrees with" isn't exactly a ratings winner, whereas "rabid American hating fundamentalist with hooks for hands" more usually does. Basically, the entire news ideology in America is based around Bile Fascination.
"This makes me angry so I must watch it"
Quote from: Cain on August 23, 2010, 04:59:41 PM
Plus, the Imam not only has close links to the Aspen Institute, including such dangerous radicals as, er, Madeleine Albright, Henry Louis Gates, David Koch of Koch Industries, the CEO of Wachovia and Condi Rice, among others, he also has members of the Aspen Institute sitting on his own board of members. The guy's as establishment as you can get without being appointed Chief Poobah of Islam by Hillary Clinton and Robert Gates.
Source? Even if its just your blog really. This would be useful for tossing at people who claim he must be accepting terrorist money to afford the building.
http://www.aspeninstitute.org/about/leadership-board is the trustee board of the Aspen Institute, and he is linked to it via John S Bennett, the co-founder of the Cordoba Initiative, a former Vice President of the Aspen Institute, former Mayor of Aspen (4 terms) and a very successful businessman http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Cordoba_Initiative and http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=John_S._Bennett
Quote from: Cramulus on August 23, 2010, 05:04:31 PM
yeah, reading up on the group a bit further, I think they're saying the right things, they're just not saying them loudly enough. I imagine this is largely because the opposition has far more microphones available. I think a crisp, peaceful message would be able to cut through a lot of the noise. Reading the guy's wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feisal_Abdul_Rauf), I'm surprised that he's so controversial - hes even written books about why America is awesome. He is kind of smudgy looking I guess.
Plus the media doesn't get a controversy
http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/politics/3183/it%E2%80%99s_not_just_about_ground_zero/
one of the most obvious things in the world
QuoteMore recently, in reaction to the California gay marriage decision, columnist and former vice-president of the Moral Majority Cal Thomas wrote: "Muslim fanatics who wish to destroy us are correct in their diagnosis of our moral rot.... While their solution--Sharia law--is wrong, they are not wrong about what ails us." Thomas doesn't say what the right solution is, but it doesn't seem a stretch to suggest that, for him, it is Biblical law. His problem is not with religious law, as long as it is the right religious law.
When people react with such vehemence against the building of mosques, they are revealing far more about themselves than about Muslims. They are projecting their own theocratic political vision onto their perceived enemies. While I'm not suggesting that people like Fischer and Thomas are crypto-terrorists, their ideas are dangerous, fanatical and antithetical to American principles.
Quote from: Cain on August 23, 2010, 05:07:42 PM
"Guy saying sensible things most of our audience agrees with" isn't exactly a ratings winner, whereas "rabid American hating fundamentalist with hooks for hands" more usually does. Basically, the entire news ideology in America is based around Bile Fascination.
THIS TIMES A MILLION
Quote from: Jenne on August 23, 2010, 03:47:29 PM
Jon Stewart did an EXCELLENT job highlighting the fact that reactionaryism on any level is not good for our country/society, and that it's easy to inject into our knee-jerk movements the sense of righteousness that only has surface and not true deeper potential.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-19-2010/extremist-makeover---homeland-edition
It was wonderful! "I'm also against building a Terrorist Command Center
elsewhere in New York!!" :lol:
I don't like that whole 'they need to be louder about being the good guys' stuff.
It's like, hey Synagogue. We're only angry because you're not being loud enough in denying your intent to implement the Zionist New World Order. And that's your fault for being too quiet, not our fault for being prejudiced.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on August 24, 2010, 09:41:14 AM
I don't like that whole 'they need to be louder about being the good guys' stuff.
It's like, hey Synagogue. We're only angry because you're not being loud enough in denying your intent to implement the Zionist New World Order. And that's your fault for being too quiet, not our fault for being prejudiced.
I would agree, but you've been awfully quiet about publically denouncing Geert Wilders, the Holocaust and the War of Spanish Succession and I'm not sure I can be seen to be taking a stance with you without these concessions.
:lulz: People have been saying FOR YEARS (like, about 9 of them) that the moderate Muslims need to be LOUDER than the fanatics. And if they weren't gonna BE louder, then perhaps they didn't exist. I heard that argument over at MW in PP all the fucking time.
Look, guys. It's not that Islam is evil, it's just dangerous. I mean, it's simple logic:
A. SOME MUSLIMS ARE EXTREMISTS
B. SOME EXTREMISTS ARE MUSLIMS
C. SOME+SOME=ALL
D. THEREFORE ALL MUSLIMS ARE EXTREMISTS (unless they are patriots, but those guys don't hang out in mosques anyway).
http://decentpedia.blogspot.com/2007/08/will-you-condemn-thon.html
QuoteWill-You-Condemn-A-Thon
Sporting Pursuit
Amusing internet pastime, in which several Decents quiz a pro-fascist (http://decentpedia.blogspot.com/2007/10/fascism.html), repeatedly demanding denunciation of a vast range of randomly-chosen murders, atrocities, war crimes and military actions in an increasingly hectoring tone.
"I agree, Guantanamo Bay is an affront to democratic ideals. But Will You Condemn Palestinian suicide attacks on Israeli restaurants?...
Yes, well, Do You Condemn Jihadist chlorine-bomb attacks?...
Okay, I knew you would be too sly to openly support such acts, but Will You Condemn terrorist attacks upon the American military?
What about the Battle of Teutoberg Forest, then, Will You Condemn that? ...I see.
...Oh, fuck off, Nazi."
Secondary stage of the Decent Debating Technique (http://decentpedia.blogspot.com/2007/08/decent-blitzkreig.html), the Will-You-Condemn-A-Thon can only be averted by reciting the Catalogue of Contempt (http://decentpedia.blogspot.com/2007/10/catalogue-of-contempt.html) in its entirety.
See also Whatabout? (http://decentpedia.blogspot.com/2007/08/whatabout.html), Terrorists Are Bad (http://decentpedia.blogspot.com/2007/08/terrorists-are-bad.html), Emotathlon (http://decentpedia.blogspot.com/2007/09/emotathlon.html)
...and now Christopher Hitchens, the fat alcoholic, is now saying that Rauf is an extremist (or very close to):
QuoteFrom the beginning, though, I pointed out that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf was no great bargain and that his Cordoba Initiative was full of euphemisms about Islamic jihad and Islamic theocracy. I mentioned his sinister belief that the United States was partially responsible for the assault on the World Trade Center and his refusal to take a position on the racist Hamas dictatorship in Gaza. The more one reads through his statements, the more alarming it gets. For example, here is Rauf's editorial on the upheaval that followed the brutal hijacking of the Iranian elections in 2009. Regarding President Obama, he advised that:
He should say his administration respects many of the guiding principles of the 1979 revolution—to establish a government that expresses the will of the people; a just government, based on the idea of Vilayet-i-faquih, that establishes the rule of law.
Coyly untranslated here (perhaps for "outreach" purposes), Vilayet-i-faquih is the special term promulgated by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini to describe the idea that all of Iranian society is under the permanent stewardship (sometimes rendered as guardianship) of the mullahs. Under this dispensation, "the will of the people" is a meaningless expression, because "the people" are the wards and children of the clergy. It is the justification for a clerical supreme leader, whose rule is impervious to elections and who can pick and choose the candidates and, if it comes to that, the results. It is extremely controversial within Shiite Islam. (Grand Ayatollah Sistani in Iraq, for example, does not endorse it.) As for those numerous Iranians who are not Shiites, it reminds them yet again that they are not considered to be real citizens of the Islamic Republic.
I do not find myself reassured by the fact that Imam Rauf publicly endorses the most extreme and repressive version of Muslim theocracy. The letterhead of the statement, incidentally, describes him as the Cordoba Initiative's "Founder and Visionary." Why does that not delight me, either?
Emboldened by the crass nature of the opposition to the center, its defenders have started to talk as if it represented no problem at all and as if the question were solely one of religious tolerance. It would be nice if this were true. But tolerance is one of the first and most awkward questions raised by any examination of Islamism. We are wrong to talk as if the only subject was that of terrorism. As Western Europe has already found to its cost, local Muslim leaders have a habit, once they feel strong enough, of making demands of the most intolerant kind. Sometimes it will be calls for censorship of anything "offensive" to Islam. Sometimes it will be demands for sexual segregation in schools and swimming pools. The script is becoming a very familiar one. And those who make such demands are of course usually quite careful to avoid any association with violence. They merely hint that, if their demands are not taken seriously, there just might be a teeny smidgeon of violence from some other unnamed quarter ...
rest in link (http://www.slate.com/id/2264770/)
Quote from: Jenne on August 24, 2010, 03:26:19 PM
...and now Christopher Hitchens, the fat alcoholic, is now saying that Rauf is an extremist (or very close to):
QuoteFrom the beginning, though, I pointed out that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf was no great bargain and that his Cordoba Initiative was full of euphemisms about Islamic jihad and Islamic theocracy. I mentioned his sinister belief that the United States was partially responsible for the assault on the World Trade Center and his refusal to take a position on the racist Hamas dictatorship in Gaza. The more one reads through his statements, the more alarming it gets. For example, here is Rauf's editorial on the upheaval that followed the brutal hijacking of the Iranian elections in 2009. Regarding President Obama, he advised that:
He should say his administration respects many of the guiding principles of the 1979 revolution—to establish a government that expresses the will of the people; a just government, based on the idea of Vilayet-i-faquih, that establishes the rule of law.
Coyly untranslated here (perhaps for "outreach" purposes), Vilayet-i-faquih is the special term promulgated by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini to describe the idea that all of Iranian society is under the permanent stewardship (sometimes rendered as guardianship) of the mullahs. Under this dispensation, "the will of the people" is a meaningless expression, because "the people" are the wards and children of the clergy. It is the justification for a clerical supreme leader, whose rule is impervious to elections and who can pick and choose the candidates and, if it comes to that, the results. It is extremely controversial within Shiite Islam. (Grand Ayatollah Sistani in Iraq, for example, does not endorse it.) As for those numerous Iranians who are not Shiites, it reminds them yet again that they are not considered to be real citizens of the Islamic Republic.
I do not find myself reassured by the fact that Imam Rauf publicly endorses the most extreme and repressive version of Muslim theocracy. The letterhead of the statement, incidentally, describes him as the Cordoba Initiative's "Founder and Visionary." Why does that not delight me, either?
Emboldened by the crass nature of the opposition to the center, its defenders have started to talk as if it represented no problem at all and as if the question were solely one of religious tolerance. It would be nice if this were true. But tolerance is one of the first and most awkward questions raised by any examination of Islamism. We are wrong to talk as if the only subject was that of terrorism. As Western Europe has already found to its cost, local Muslim leaders have a habit, once they feel strong enough, of making demands of the most intolerant kind. Sometimes it will be calls for censorship of anything "offensive" to Islam. Sometimes it will be demands for sexual segregation in schools and swimming pools. The script is becoming a very familiar one. And those who make such demands are of course usually quite careful to avoid any association with violence. They merely hint that, if their demands are not taken seriously, there just might be a teeny smidgeon of violence from some other unnamed quarter ...
rest in link (http://www.slate.com/id/2264770/)
THE MAN HAS ESOPHAGEAL CANCER! LAY OFF!
...doesn't mean I have to like his politics. He's a reactionary. I'm sorry he has cancer. Still and all, some of his theories, man, ugh.
Quote from: Jenne on August 24, 2010, 03:44:52 PM
...doesn't mean I have to like his politics. He's a reactionary. I'm sorry he has cancer. Still and all, some of his theories, man, ugh.
Will you condemn attacks on cancer patients?
Quote from: vexati0n on August 24, 2010, 03:45:24 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 24, 2010, 03:44:52 PM
...doesn't mean I have to like his politics. He's a reactionary. I'm sorry he has cancer. Still and all, some of his theories, man, ugh.
Will you condemn attacks on cancer patients?
Apparently. Not. Depends.
CANCER PATIENTS ARE WIENERS
THAT'S RIGHT, I SAID IT
Quote from: Cramulus on August 24, 2010, 03:56:04 PM
CANCER PATIENTS ARE WIENERS
THAT'S RIGHT, I SAID IT
At least they're not TERRORISTS
Not sure if this one got posted yet. The first politician I've heard come out and say exactly what this is: a property rights issue being muddled up by assholes looking to get elected by mob mentality for taking their uneducated and borderline racist position on the issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ6Hzf0x1vk&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ6Hzf0x1vk&feature=player_embedded)
mutha fuckin Ron Paul..
I'm truly glad this man would rather be right than be elected to a higher office.
More politicians should speak truth to stupidity.
Ron Paul says a lot of stuff that sorta makes sense from time to time. And then he says a lot of stuff that's pretty fucked up.
...and then there's his SON... :x
QuoteRon Paul says a lot of stuff that sorta makes sense from time to time. And then he says a lot of stuff that's pretty fucked up.
...and then there's his SON... argh
Even the people whose philosophy of government I don't agree with say something that makes sense every now and again.
it's still better than the ones who don't make sense ANY of the time..
Sarah Palin and Nancy Pelosi come to mind immediately.
Quote from: Jenne on August 24, 2010, 03:26:19 PM
...and now Christopher Hitchens, the fat alcoholic, is now saying that Rauf is an extremist (or very close to):
His partner in crime half-ass-philosopher Sam Harris had jumped on the band wagon a little before that
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-13/ground-zero-mosque/
QuoteShould a 15-story mosque and Islamic cultural center be built two blocks from the site of the worst jihadist atrocity in living memory? Put this way, the question nearly answers itself. This is not to say, however, that I think we should prevent our fellow citizens from building "the ground zero mosque." There is probably no legal basis to do so in any case--nor should there be. But the margin between what is legal and what is desirable, or even decent, leaves room for many projects that well-intentioned people might still find offensive. If you can raise the requisite $100 million, you might also build a shrine to Satan on this spot, complete with the names of all the non-believing victims of 9/11 destined to suffer for eternity in Hell. You could also build an Institute of "9/11 Truth," catering to the credulity, masochism, and paranoia of the 16 percent of Americans who imagine that the World Trade Center was intentionally demolished by agents of the U.S. government. Incidentally, any shrine to conspiracy thinking should probably also contain a mosque, along with a list of the 4,000 Jews who suspiciously declined to practice their usury in the Twin Towers on the day of the attack.
The erection of a mosque upon the ashes of this atrocity will also be viewed by many millions of Muslims as a victory--and as a sign that the liberal values of the West are synonymous with decadence and cowardice.
Allowing people to have religious freedom is decadence? Not being afraid of terrorists is now cowardice? :?
Seriously WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE??? This mosque will not affect 99.5% of people once it is built. Why are we allowing xenophobic assholes and cynical politicians to drive us off of a cliff?
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on August 24, 2010, 08:38:46 PM
Allowing people to have religious freedom is decadence? Not being afraid of terrorists is now cowardice? :?
Seriously WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE??? This mosque will not affect 99.5% of people once it is built. Why are we allowing xenophobic assholes and cynical politicians to drive us off of a cliff?
Because America
is xenophobic assholes and cynical politicians. If you missed
that memo, I'm afraid this century is just going to make you sad.
Unlike me. I'm gagging on the hilarity over here.
Seeing as one of the biggest contributors to the Cordoba House project also owns 7% of Fox news, who is clearly profiting from the controversy that they have created over their mosque, maybe we should start calling it the Fox News Mosque.
check thetreeofliberty forum I have linked my "at least this will be entertaining" thread
some of the hardcores are turning from Fox News cause a Saudi prince has bought a sizable minority in Newscorp.
The Saudi Prince buying part of Fox News is complete Machiavellian brilliance in my opinion. Expect more of this Anti-Muslim nonsense and almost nothing on legitimate complaints on the powers that be in the Islamic world. "They have to be harsh with their citizens, after all their all terrorists remember."
I hate to keep beating the "Jon Stewart" drum on this, but he gave a totally awesome run-down of that, Fox News Style.
I usually don't watch Steward cause I'm not the biggest comedy fan, but I watched last night and he was just giving it to the former Illinois governor. I was thinking, "why the fuck can't real reporters do that anymore?" Then I answered myself, "they're not real reporters."
...neither is he. He just plays one on tv.
http://www.amvalues.org/eod/?p=399
QuoteLiberal talking heads often suggest that opposition to the mosque at Ground Zero is just thinly veiled bigotry. They contend that the opponents of the mosque would oppose the construction of a mosque anywhere, and ask rhetorically, "How large should the mosque-free buffer zone around Ground Zero be?"
I've thought about that question, and here's my suggested compromise: Back up the mosque one yard for every life that was lost at Ground Zero on 9/11. Three thousand lives lost equals three thousand yards away. If the organizers of the Ground Zero mosque would accept that compromise, the controversy would be over.
well I'm glad that cleared it up
:roll:
Also do you subtract yards for each Muslim life loss?
also Iran = Nazi Germany
QuoteDiplomacy is not always the less risky route. Neville Chamberlain's face-to-face meeting with Adolf Hitler accomplished little except to give the Nazis more time to build more weapons. The current commitment to diplomacy and outreach with Iran has done nothing more than give Iran more time to advance its nuclear program and install more sophisticated defenses.
Like the American hikers who have been held for over a year now, Iran's operational nuclear reactor and its "ambassador of death" are the fruit of a weak foreign policy. And just as the West came to regret ignoring Hitler more 70 years ago, there is tremendous risk in ignoring Iran's Holocaust-denying dictator today.
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on August 25, 2010, 05:16:42 PM
http://www.amvalues.org/eod/?p=399
QuoteLiberal talking heads often suggest that opposition to the mosque at Ground Zero is just thinly veiled bigotry. They contend that the opponents of the mosque would oppose the construction of a mosque anywhere, and ask rhetorically, "How large should the mosque-free buffer zone around Ground Zero be?"
I've thought about that question, and here's my suggested compromise: Back up the mosque one yard for every life that was lost at Ground Zero on 9/11. Three thousand lives lost equals three thousand yards away. If the organizers of the Ground Zero mosque would accept that compromise, the controversy would be over.
well I'm glad that cleared it up
:roll:
Also do you subtract yards for each Muslim life loss?
also Iran = Nazi Germany
QuoteDiplomacy is not always the less risky route. Neville Chamberlain's face-to-face meeting with Adolf Hitler accomplished little except to give the Nazis more time to build more weapons. The current commitment to diplomacy and outreach with Iran has done nothing more than give Iran more time to advance its nuclear program and install more sophisticated defenses.
Like the American hikers who have been held for over a year now, Iran's operational nuclear reactor and its "ambassador of death" are the fruit of a weak foreign policy. And just as the West came to regret ignoring Hitler more 70 years ago, there is tremendous risk in ignoring Iran's Holocaust-denying dictator today.
I know by the west he means Merrka + Those-Godless-Europeans, but wasnt America pretty content to just let Hitler bomb everything for quite awhile? It wasnt Hitler we regretted ignoring it was those wacky Japanese.
Yes, but the same people who drone on forever about Chamberlain's "shameful capitulation" at Munich (because committing Britain to war at a time when it had virtually no air defenses, a land military unable to compete with Germany's and no guarantee of Soviet or French help would've been the smart and moral move) also tend to think FDR was a fascist dictator in everything but name.
Neoconservatives actually tend to idolize Churchill. Whom, it should be remembered, was thundering on about the German threat to Britain and the world during the Weimar Republic years. Most people forget that while Churchill and Vansittart were right about Germany, it wasn't because they were prescient and analytic thinkers, it's because they had an irrational hatred of Germany and wanted to see the country crushed forever. They were right, but for all the wrong reasons. Churchill was also big into imperialism and the "white man's burden", which also causes Neocons to wet their pants when they think about him. He also occasionally suggested wiping troublesome native tribes out, which endears him to the "kill the all" faction of the movement.
Quote from: Cain on August 27, 2010, 11:21:54 AM
Yes, but the same people who drone on forever about Chamberlain's "shameful capitulation" at Munich (because committing Britain to war at a time when it had virtually no air defenses, a land military unable to compete with Germany's and no guarantee of Soviet or French help would've been the smart and moral move) also tend to think FDR was a fascist dictator in everything but name.
Neoconservatives actually tend to idolize Churchill. Whom, it should be remembered, was thundering on about the German threat to Britain and the world during the Weimar Republic years. Most people forget that while Churchill and Vansittart were right about Germany, it wasn't because they were prescient and analytic thinkers, it's because they had an irrational hatred of Germany and wanted to see the country crushed forever. They were right, but for all the wrong reasons. Churchill was also big into imperialism and the "white man's burden", which also causes Neocons to wet their pants when they think about him. He also occasionally suggested wiping troublesome native tribes out, which endears him to the "kill the all" faction of the movement.
Well that was before Glen Beck changed History. ;-)
Glenn Beck's online college thing teaches history, doesn't it? I'd love to see a team of academic historians take that apart, piece by piece.
Quote from: Cain on August 27, 2010, 10:23:50 PM
Glenn Beck's online college thing teaches history, doesn't it? I'd love to see a team of academic historians take that apart, piece by piece.
I haven't seen anyone covering the history classes but Chris Rodda has done a good job of taking apart David Barton's Faith classes from Beck U and a bunch of other claims that Beck has made about the religion of the founding fathers:
http://www.talk2action.org/user/Chris%20Rodda
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/07/cordoba_house_p.php
QuoteIn Manhattan, only 36 percent of voters oppose the mosque, while 73 percent do in Staten Island. Queens (52 percent opposed), Brooklyn (57 percent) and the Bronx (57 percent) fall in between. There's also a big split between Democratic (45 percent) and Republican (82 percent) levels of opposition.
Fuck this country, fuck it in the ass.
Quote from: Cain on August 27, 2010, 10:23:50 PM
Glenn Beck's online college thing teaches history, doesn't it? I'd love to see a team of academic historians take that apart, piece by piece.
Apparently he teaches Faith 101, Hope 101, and Charity 101.
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/42502/ (http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/42502/)
QuoteBeck University is a unique academic experience bringing together experts in the fields of religion, American history and economics. Through captivating lectures and interactive online discussions, these experts will explore the concepts of Faith, Hope and Charity and show you how they influence America's past, her present and most importantly her future.
Why do I get the feeling that when this was written, 'Pomp and Circumstance' was playing in the background?
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on August 28, 2010, 03:28:00 AM
Quote from: Cain on August 27, 2010, 10:23:50 PM
Glenn Beck's online college thing teaches history, doesn't it? I'd love to see a team of academic historians take that apart, piece by piece.
I haven't seen anyone covering the history classes but Chris Rodda has done a good job of taking apart David Barton's Faith classes from Beck U and a bunch of other claims that Beck has made about the religion of the founding fathers:
http://www.talk2action.org/user/Chris%20Rodda
Since Beck cannot even be consistent in his own beliefs (see: the Daily Show, Beck condemning the founder of Cordoba House for something he himself said 3 months previous) it is not hard to believe he struggles with the beliefs of others
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 28, 2010, 05:08:19 AM
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/07/cordoba_house_p.php
QuoteIn Manhattan, only 36 percent of voters oppose the mosque, while 73 percent do in Staten Island. Queens (52 percent opposed), Brooklyn (57 percent) and the Bronx (57 percent) fall in between. There's also a big split between Democratic (45 percent) and Republican (82 percent) levels of opposition.
Fuck this country, fuck it in the ass.
I find that so hard to believe. What with Democrats generally cheering on the bombing of Muslim civilians and occupation of Muslim countries, not to mention massive support for Israel (much more so than the GOP, which has far more established strains of anti-Semitism still present) that there would be any kind of residual resentment or antipathy towards Muslims within the party.
Muslims are basically easier to pick on than blacks, less politically self-defeating than Latinos and with less nasty historical precedent than Jews.
Quote from: curiosity on August 28, 2010, 08:30:29 AM
Quote from: Cain on August 27, 2010, 10:23:50 PM
Glenn Beck's online college thing teaches history, doesn't it? I'd love to see a team of academic historians take that apart, piece by piece.
Apparently he teaches Faith 101, Hope 101, and Charity 101.
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/42502/ (http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/42502/)
QuoteBeck University is a unique academic experience bringing together experts in the fields of religion, American history and economics. Through captivating lectures and interactive online discussions, these experts will explore the concepts of Faith, Hope and Charity and show you how they influence America's past, her present and most importantly her future.
Why do I get the feeling that when this was written, 'Pomp and Circumstance' was playing in the background?
Well, "pomp" was
part of the word I was thinking of when reading this...the rest being "ous fart"
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/3890/ (http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/3890/)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/curiosity/2010-0723-Center-Chris1.jpg)
Yay! Cartoons! :P
Quote from: Cain on August 28, 2010, 10:44:12 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 28, 2010, 05:08:19 AM
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/07/cordoba_house_p.php
QuoteIn Manhattan, only 36 percent of voters oppose the mosque, while 73 percent do in Staten Island. Queens (52 percent opposed), Brooklyn (57 percent) and the Bronx (57 percent) fall in between. There's also a big split between Democratic (45 percent) and Republican (82 percent) levels of opposition.
Fuck this country, fuck it in the ass.
I find that so hard to believe. What with Democrats generally cheering on the bombing of Muslim civilians and occupation of Muslim countries, not to mention massive support for Israel (much more so than the GOP, which has far more established strains of anti-Semitism still present) that there would be any kind of residual resentment or antipathy towards Muslims within the party.
Muslims are basically easier to pick on than blacks, less politically self-defeating than Latinos and with less nasty historical precedent than Jews.
IT JUST GOES TO SHOW
that bigotry transcends party lines
I was VERY surprised that my incredibly liberal brooklynite friend said that he'd relax about the mosque as soon as the mid-east was one giant asphalt parking lot.
I forget sometimes how emotional of an issue 9/11 is, and how for some people, it presses the TERRITORY DEFENSE button really really hard. And these people have not been silent over the last 9 years, they've been gathering support and concentrating their efforts.
Gov. Patterson says this is all very calculated. He believes it to be a right wing attempt to polarize voters- to get liberal voters to resonate with right wing talking points. Patterson thinks this will all go away in November. I tell you this, my fingers are crossed.
Quote from: Cramulus on August 28, 2010, 02:13:58 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 28, 2010, 10:44:12 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 28, 2010, 05:08:19 AM
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/07/cordoba_house_p.php
QuoteIn Manhattan, only 36 percent of voters oppose the mosque, while 73 percent do in Staten Island. Queens (52 percent opposed), Brooklyn (57 percent) and the Bronx (57 percent) fall in between. There's also a big split between Democratic (45 percent) and Republican (82 percent) levels of opposition.
Fuck this country, fuck it in the ass.
I find that so hard to believe. What with Democrats generally cheering on the bombing of Muslim civilians and occupation of Muslim countries, not to mention massive support for Israel (much more so than the GOP, which has far more established strains of anti-Semitism still present) that there would be any kind of residual resentment or antipathy towards Muslims within the party.
Muslims are basically easier to pick on than blacks, less politically self-defeating than Latinos and with less nasty historical precedent than Jews.
IT JUST GOES TO SHOW
that bigotry transcends party lines
I was VERY surprised that my incredibly liberal brooklynite friend said that he'd relax about the mosque as soon as the mid-east was one giant asphalt parking lot.
I forget sometimes how emotional of an issue 9/11 is, and how for some people, it presses the TERRITORY DEFENSE button really really hard. And these people have not been silent over the last 9 years, they've been gathering support and concentrating their efforts.
Gov. Patterson says this is all very calculated. He believes it to be a right wing attempt to polarize voters- to get liberal voters to resonate with right wing talking points. Patterson thinks this will all go away in November. I tell you this, my fingers are crossed.
Even if the media drops it after November, the people will still feel the anxiety from it. Their opinions have already been lit like Roman candles, so if it's just a GOP attack vector, it's a dangerous game. You don't just polarize or extremize people for a single election - they stay polarized and extreme, and at best it becomes a dormant trait that can be activated at will once it's installed.
Agreed with Vex. Patterson (who, as I recalled, has done nothing to stop this problem, and indeed has legitimized it to some degree) should know better, and if most high-ranking Dems are as stupid as he is, well, it explains quite a lot.
Republicans thrive on bigotry, and having an outgroup to persecute. Liberals and atheists are always fair game, but many of those two groups are white (esp in the media) and so don't really get the ethnocentric hate juices flowing like they should (ironically, the plurality of American Muslims are white, however these are rarely seen in the media, positive or negative). As alluded to above, blacks are too well politically organized now to go after in any kind of semi-public manner, the GOP tried to demonize Latinos and got burnt for it at the last election and Jews are a no-go for historical reasons (and Israel).
Muslims though....people have been primed to hate them for the last 10 years at least in a fairly hardcore fashion, and even before that, with the Israeli-Palestine conflict, American intervention in Lebanon, the revolution in Iran etc...the Middle East and all things associated with it does not have the best PR available. And the Muslim demographic in America is tiny, 2-3 million at best. Muslims used to support the Republicans overwhelming, for social conservative reasons, but since Bush Jr's reign that has dropped sharply, while still allowing him to win elections (more or less...). They can be ignored and persecuted without much in the way of political losses, and because it's easy to whip people up into a panic over them. And the GOP will do that for as long as they can, so long as it brings them power and allows them to dominate the news cycle with their own talking points.
Also, a quick irony for you: a 2007 survey of American non-Muslims showed that 52% of Americans agreed with the FBI wiretapping Muslims. 52% of Americans also think Muslims are targeted unfairly by law enforcement agencies.
Quote from: Cain on August 28, 2010, 03:26:20 PM
Agreed with Vex. Patterson (who, as I recalled, has done nothing to stop this problem, and indeed has legitimized it to some degree) should know better, and if most high-ranking Dems are as stupid as he is, well, it explains quite a lot.
Republicans thrive on bigotry, and having an outgroup to persecute. Liberals and atheists are always fair game, but many of those two groups are white (esp in the media) and so don't really get the ethnocentric hate juices flowing like they should (ironically, the plurality of American Muslims are white, however these are rarely seen in the media, positive or negative). As alluded to above, blacks are too well politically organized now to go after in any kind of semi-public manner, the GOP tried to demonize Latinos and got burnt for it at the last election and Jews are a no-go for historical reasons (and Israel).
Muslims though....people have been primed to hate them for the last 10 years at least in a fairly hardcore fashion, and even before that, with the Israeli-Palestine conflict, American intervention in Lebanon, the revolution in Iran etc...the Middle East and all things associated with it does not have the best PR available. And the Muslim demographic in America is tiny, 2-3 million at best. Muslims used to support the Republicans overwhelming, for social conservative reasons, but since Bush Jr's reign that has dropped sharply, while still allowing him to win elections (more or less...). They can be ignored and persecuted without much in the way of political losses, and because it's easy to whip people up into a panic over them. And the GOP will do that for as long as they can, so long as it brings them power and allows them to dominate the news cycle with their own talking points.
Also, a quick irony for you: a 2007 survey of American non-Muslims showed that 52% of Americans agreed with the FBI wiretapping Muslims. 52% of Americans also think Muslims are targeted unfairly by law enforcement agencies.
Well said, and that last paragraph of yours--woof! People are stupid.
THE FBI NEEDS MORE POWERS SO IT CAN UNFAIRLY TARGET MUSLIMS
\
:joshua:
I think it speaks to the fact they easily preyed upon through fear, but want to still believe in "freedom." Again, stupid.
The Founders had the right idea, I think. "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Quote from: curiosity on August 28, 2010, 08:30:29 AM
Quote from: Cain on August 27, 2010, 10:23:50 PM
Glenn Beck's online college thing teaches history, doesn't it? I'd love to see a team of academic historians take that apart, piece by piece.
Apparently he teaches Faith 101, Hope 101, and Charity 101.
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/42502/ (http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/42502/)
QuoteBeck University is a unique academic experience bringing together experts in the fields of religion, American history and economics. Through captivating lectures and interactive online discussions, these experts will explore the concepts of Faith, Hope and Charity and show you how they influence America's past, her present and most importantly her future.
Why do I get the feeling that when this was written, 'Pomp and Circumstance' was playing in the background?
I'm not an academic historian (yet) but I think I've found myself a new project.
If you want resources or reference texts, you know who to contact.
:argh!: Of course I have to subscribe to get at it. I'm not giving Glenn Beck a dime so never mind.
Back in the day, people would shell out a small fortune for a good education. Now they're willing to pay for miseducation.
Actually, for a long time I've wanted to a historical skeptic blog, taking apart the abuses of history and applying Bayesian style rationality to the (ab)use of history in political discourse (for instance, Bias ad Hitlerum, the idea that every tinpot third world dictator with some Ak-47's must be confronted, less he suddenly conquer Europe and invade the Soviet Union. Whereas in fact it was Hitler that was the exception in international affairs, and military dictatorships are actually usually fairly stable. Things like that).
It's just finding the time and effort.
Quote from: Cain on August 30, 2010, 10:06:11 PM
Actually, for a long time I've wanted to a historical skeptic blog, taking apart the abuses of history and applying Bayesian style rationality to the (ab)use of history in political discourse (for instance, Bias ad Hitlerum, the idea that every tinpot third world dictator with some Ak-47's must be confronted, less he suddenly conquer Europe and invade the Soviet Union. Whereas in fact it was Hitler that was the exception in international affairs, and military dictatorships are actually usually fairly stable. Things like that).
It's just finding the time and effort.
(http://imgur.com/FAifz.jpg)
Dont worry they got this solved now!!!
With song!!!!
Really Bad Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaQBrTROj2w
PS. I am aware this is around half a month old
:p
I hadn't heard it yet.
Hilarious!
Well this puts a new spin on things
http://www.observer.com/2010/politics/untangling-new-intrigue-behind-ground-zero-mosque
QuoteUntangling the Bizarre CIA Links to the Ground Zero Mosque
By Mark Ames
September 10, 2010
So far, the debate over the proposed Islamic center near Ground Zero has unfolded along predictable lines, with the man at the center of the project, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, drawing attacks from the right painting him as a terrorist sympathizer with ties to Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood.
But meanwhile, links between the group behind the controversial mosque, the CIA and U.S. military establishment have gone unacknowledged.
For instance, one of the earliest backers of the nonprofit group, the Cordoba Initiative, that is spearheading the Ground Zero mosque, is a 52-year-old Scarsdale, New York, native named R. Leslie Deak. In addition to serving on the group's board of advisors since its founding in 2004 by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, Deak was its principal funder, donating $98,000 to the nonprofit between 2006 and 2008. This figure appears to represent organization's total operating budget—though, oddly, the group reported receipts of just a third of that total during the same time period.
Deak describes himself as a "Practicing Muslim with background in Christianity and Judaism, [with] in-depth personal and business experiences in the Middle East, living and working six months per year in Egypt." Born into a Christian home, Deak became an Orthodox Jew and married a Jewish woman before converting to Islam when he married his current wife, Moshira Soliman, with whom he now lives in Rye.
Leslie Deak's resume also notes his role as "business consultant" for Patriot Defense Group, LLC, a private defense contractor with offices in Winter Park, Florida, and in Tucson. The only names listed on the firm's website are those of its three "strategic advisers." These include retired four-star General Bryan "Doug" Brown, commander of the U.S. Special Operations Command until 2007, where he headed "all special operations forces, both active duty and reserve, leading the Global War On Terrorism," and James Pavitt, former deputy director for operations at the Central Intelligence Agency, where he "managed the CIA's globally deployed personnel and nearly half of its multi-billion dollar budget" and "served as head of America's Clandestine Service, the CIA's operational response to the attacks of September 11, 2001."
Besides Pavitt, Brown and a third advisor, banker Alexander Cappello, the Patriot Defense Group is so secretive it doesn't even name its management team, instead describing its anonymous CEO as a former Special Forces and State Department veteran, the group's managing director as a former CIA officer experienced in counter-terrorism in hostile environments and the group's corporate intelligence head as a "23-year veteran of the U.S. Secret Service who worked on the personal security details of former Presidents Bush and Clinton."
Patriot Defense Group's primary business involves leveraging its government connections and know-how. The firm is divided into two divisions: one that "focuses exclusively on the needs of the U.S. military and law enforcement communities as well as the requirements of friendly foreign governments," and a corporate division, which "provides business intelligence and specialized security services to corporate clients and high net-worth family enterprises."
So, to recap: From 2006 to 2008, R. Leslie Deak worked as a "business consultant" to this super-secretive security contractor with ties to the CIA and counterterrorism forces, and in those same three years he also donated nearly $100,000 in seed money to the foundation now advocating the construction of the so-called Ground Zero Mosque.
Interestingly, during the same three-year period during which the Deak Family Foundation was financing the Cordoba Initiative, Deak also donated a total of $101,247 to something called the National Defense University Foundation. The National Defense University is a network of war and strategy colleges and research centers (including the National War College) funded by the Pentagon, designed to train specialists in military strategy. The organization recently announced a November 5 dinner gala in honor of Defense Secretary and former CIA chief Robert Gates. Sponsors include Northrup Grumman, Boeing, Lockheed Martin and...the Patriot Defense Group.
Deak also sits on the NDUF's board of directors, the chairman of which is Mark Treanor, the former general counsel for Wachovia bank from 1998 through its collapse in 2008 and a major bundler of campaign donations for the McCain-Palin ticket in 2008. Wachovia, now owned by Wells Fargo, was recently fined $160 million for laundering "at least $110 million" in Mexican drug money between 2003 and 2008, while Treanor was Wachovia's general counsel, though the figure is likely higher since Wachovia admitted it didn't put any controls on at least $420 billion—that's billion—in cash moved through its network of Mexico currency exchanges.
Which leads to another odd coincidence: Laundering money for drug lords is what brought down Deak & Co., the company run by Leslie Deak's father, Nicholas Deak, years ago. The elder Deak, a former top intelligence commander during World War II for the OSS (the forerunner of the CIA), was the founder of Deak-Perera, which became for a time one of the world's biggest foreign currency and gold dealers. But in 1984, a Presidential Commission on Organized Crime accused the firm of acting as a money laundering operation for Columbia drug cartels, who reportedly brought sacks of cash containing tens of millions of dollars into Deak's Manhattan offices. By the end of 1984, Deak & Co. had declared bankruptcy, and a year later, Nicholas Deak was murdered in the company's headquarters at 29 Broadway by a deranged homeless woman.
After the firm went bankrupt and Leslie Deak was left on his own, the corporation was broken up and sold off in pieces. One company that traces its beginnings to the defunct Deak empire is Goldline International, a business concern well known to fans of Glenn Beck as well as California investigators. Goldline is to Glenn Beck what General Electric was to Ronald Reagan: The company sponsors Beck's TV and radio shows as well as his touring act, and Beck is its public face. The Los Angeles County District Attorney's office, along with the Santa Monica City Attorney's office, are currently investigating Goldline for defrauding customers by railroading gullible customers into buying their most debased products.
Speaking of Glenn Beck, it has been reported that Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, the second-largest shareholder in News Corp., the parent company Fox News, which airs Beck's program, is also a major funder of Imam Rauf's projects, as Jon Stewart viewers heard all about last week.
Coincidences happen, of course. (For instance, Pamela Geller, the blogger who's become the leading voice denouncing the mosque project was once, bizarrely enough, associate publisher of The New York Observer.)
But add to this array of unexpected connections the work of Imam Rauf on behalf of the U.S. government—which includes serving as an FBI "consultant" and being recruited as a spokesperson by longtime George W. Bush confidante Karen Hughes, who headed up the administration's propaganda efforts in the Muslim world—and a compelling picture begins to emerge. Bush's favorite Imam, with backing from a funder with connections to the CIA, the Pentagon and the currency trading company that now sponsors rightwing firebrand Glenn Beck, proposes to build a mosque around the corner from the site of the most devastating terrorist attack ever visited on America. In the name of "[cultivating] understanding among all religions and cultures," he puts forth a project that offends a majority of Americans and deals a significant setback to the broader acceptance of Muslim-Americans. It's a little like Billy "White Shoes" Johnson claiming the only reason he moonwalks after scoring a touchdown is to lower tensions on the football field and raise the other team's spirits.
Whether the Cordoba Initiative ever gets its way with the Ground Zero Mosque, it may well have a lasting legacy at odds with its stated intention: By damaging the very moderates and progressives who actually view New York, and the nation as a whole, as a tolerant melting pot, and strengthening the position demagogues on both sides, it will almost certainly deal a setback to interfaith relations. It will also help to hobble the Democratic party. Which just might have been the point all along.
Either that, or it's merely a coincidence that this controversy has erupted now, during crucial mid-term elections. In which case we can all go back to what we were doing before—either denouncing the Park51 Mosque as an affront to Americans, or championing it as a symbol of our fundamental rights-playing our accustomed roles in a drama that seems too perfect, somehow, to believe.
Here is an interesting link on Sharia Law.
There are obviously bigger issues at hand than a building.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html (http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html)
Quote from: Ruby on September 24, 2010, 07:26:47 PM
Here is an interesting link on Sharia Law.
There are obviously bigger issues at hand than a building.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html (http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html)
So, you want to destroy freedom of religion to save it.
How nice. :lulz:
:tongue:
Frankly, I haven't yet formed my opinion about such. I am only sharing things that I come across.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/islsharia.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/islsharia.htm)
A more fitting site? Seems to me that the information is about the same.
*looking for ignore feature*
*finds it on mouse*
I thought rubyd00byfreshnfrooby was bannz0red?
And it's glorious how Fux News has totally ignored the whole Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal thing.
Quote from: Ruby on September 24, 2010, 07:33:34 PM
:tongue:
Frankly, I haven't yet formed my opinion about such. I am only sharing things that I come across.
So you're just spamming.
And not having an opinion on the first amendment, IMO, implies that you aren't even a functional human being.
Quote from: Jenne on September 24, 2010, 07:40:13 PM
I thought rubyd00byfreshnfrooby was bannz0red?
And it's glorious how Fux News has totally ignored the whole Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal thing.
Naw. She only comes on when she's been banned at TCC.
They don't like her, either.
The American Thinker is what the guys at Sadly, No! (http://www.sadlyno.com) pick on when they're having a slow day. It's like NRO for people with poor English.
Also, this argument has absolutely nothing to do with Sharia Law.
Quote from: Cain on September 24, 2010, 07:42:41 PM
Also, this argument has absolutely nothing to do with Sharia Law.
Um.
"Ruby".
Quote from: Ruby on September 24, 2010, 07:26:47 PM
Here is an interesting link on Sharia Law.
There are obviously bigger issues at hand than a building.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html (http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html)
What does Sharia have to do with this community center? The people building it are Sufi. Sufi's don't support Sharia.
Quote from: Xochiquetzal on September 24, 2010, 07:44:06 PM
Quote from: Ruby on September 24, 2010, 07:26:47 PM
Here is an interesting link on Sharia Law.
There are obviously bigger issues at hand than a building.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html (http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html)
What does Sharia have to do with this community center? The people building it are Sufi. Sufi's don't support Sharia.
Ruby was just making another utterly ignorant statement.
She's good for that.
Quote from: Xochiquetzal on September 24, 2010, 07:44:06 PM
Quote from: Ruby on September 24, 2010, 07:26:47 PM
Here is an interesting link on Sharia Law.
There are obviously bigger issues at hand than a building.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html (http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html)
What does Sharia have to do with this community center? The people building it are Sufi. Sufi's don't support Sharia.
Most people don't give a rats ass about the workings of the differenct Muslim sects--they think they're a total monolith, like all "Christians." Rubydubyfreshnfruby's just showing us a great example of the Awesome Power of Amurrican Ignorance.
Quote from: Jenne on September 24, 2010, 07:46:23 PM
Quote from: Xochiquetzal on September 24, 2010, 07:44:06 PM
Quote from: Ruby on September 24, 2010, 07:26:47 PM
Here is an interesting link on Sharia Law.
There are obviously bigger issues at hand than a building.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html (http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html)
What does Sharia have to do with this community center? The people building it are Sufi. Sufi's don't support Sharia.
Most people don't give a rats ass about the workings of the differenct Muslim sects--they think they're a total monolith, like all "Christians." Rubydubyfreshnfruby's just showing us a great example of the Awesome Power of Amurrican Ignorance.
Ruby is, in fact, the perfect example of Modern America.
Mind you, I'm operating under the assumption that she's morbidly obese.
Oh, I function quite well. I just refuse to be embittered and run down.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/26/AR2010082605510.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/26/AR2010082605510.html)
And, no, spamming would be if'n I'd be posting nekkid pics of myself. :tongue:
This whole thing about the 'WTC' has come to make far more sense the more one looks into the Islamic spread throughout the rest of America.
I am wondering why we didn't have so many concerns as a much younger America when the Amish and such came. Oh, wait, probably because most of the loudest, venom filled voices against Islam were the ones not yet here when those settlements took place.
Aye?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 24, 2010, 07:45:24 PM
Quote from: Xochiquetzal on September 24, 2010, 07:44:06 PM
Quote from: Ruby on September 24, 2010, 07:26:47 PM
Here is an interesting link on Sharia Law.
There are obviously bigger issues at hand than a building.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html (http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html)
What does Sharia have to do with this community center? The people building it are Sufi. Sufi's don't support Sharia.
Ruby was just making another utterly ignorant statement.
She's good for that.
I know. In this case it's a statement that is representative of a lot of American thought though. I'm hoping she actually reads my response and maybe shares the fact included in it with her undoubtedly equally ignorant friends.
Chances are slim, but I did manage to get one (albeit much more prone to independent opinion than Ruby) young Jewish lass to check for herself and realize that the folks setting up the mosque are Sufi. She already knew what a Sufi was though, and I wouldn't be surprised if Ruby does not.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 24, 2010, 07:43:06 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 24, 2010, 07:42:41 PM
Also, this argument has absolutely nothing to do with Sharia Law.
Um.
"Ruby".
Yeah, I know. Unfortunately.
Anyway, to brighten up this thread, I've dug up some Sadly, No! takedowns of The American Thinker. Enjoy!
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/32567.html - Obama, the adult child of an alcoholic
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/32460.html - Another attempted psychoanalysis of Obama
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/31751.html - "The Left's Sexual Terrorism"
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/31070.html - "Obama the Hunk"
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/30851.html - RFID tags in bins is how Obama will put all conservatives in FEMA Death Camps
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/29843.html - Bill Clinton responsible for cancer of the head and neck by convcing young people that BJs are not Satanic
Quote from: Xochiquetzal on September 24, 2010, 07:48:39 PM
I'm hoping she actually reads my response and maybe shares the fact included in it with her undoubtedly equally ignorant friends.
And I'm hoping that the Swedish Bikini Team will charge out of my arse on rocket-propelled skateboards. :lulz:
Quote from: Cain on September 24, 2010, 07:48:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 24, 2010, 07:43:06 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 24, 2010, 07:42:41 PM
Also, this argument has absolutely nothing to do with Sharia Law.
Um.
"Ruby".
Yeah, I know. Unfortunately.
Anyway, to brighten up this thread, I've dug up some Sadly, No! takedowns of The American Thinker. Enjoy!
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/32567.html - Obama, the adult child of an alcoholic
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/32460.html - Another attempted psychoanalysis of Obama
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/31751.html - "The Left's Sexual Terrorism"
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/31070.html - "Obama the Hunk"
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/30851.html - RFID tags in bins is how Obama will put all conservatives in FEMA Death Camps
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/29843.html - Bill Clinton responsible for cancer of the head and neck by convcing young people that BJs are not Satanic
I will hit those tonight, on the laptop. The third one's title made me spew a bit of my cucumber salad on my screen, and it's just hanging there like a booger.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 24, 2010, 07:47:41 PM
Ruby is, in fact, the perfect example of Modern America.
Mind you, I'm operating under the assumption that she's morbidly obese.
She certainly uses her tongue enough she's got a lingual fetish at the very least.
@Cain--thank you, will be sharing those with others. :D
My point is obviously missed completely because of the fact it was posted by 'me'.
Modern America is not well read, nor well educated about the different sects within our own religions, let alone religions from other countries.
Does the board seriously think this conclusion is 'mine'? Perhaps I only am a representation of some of the 'more willing to be less ignorant'.
Another though toward this is the consideration toward what percentage of Modern America lives like this http://www.gotquestions.org/Mennonite-beliefs.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/Mennonite-beliefs.html)
(Or, rather, more than not, just out of touch with 'supposed' reality.
Protip: If you post a link without commentary, then we are led to believe that it supports your views.
In fact, your comment underscores your apparent belief reflected in the link.
Quote from: Ruby on September 24, 2010, 08:03:29 PM
My point is obviously missed completely because of the fact it was posted by 'me'.
See? You CAN be taught!
Quote from: Ruby on September 24, 2010, 08:03:29 PM
My point is obviously missed completely because of the fact it was posted by 'me'.
Modern America is not well read, nor well educated about the different sects within our own religions, let alone religions from other countries.
Does the board seriously think this conclusion is 'mine'? Perhaps I only am a representation of some of the 'more willing to be less ignorant'.
Another though toward this is the consideration toward what percentage of Modern America lives like this http://www.gotquestions.org/Mennonite-beliefs.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/Mennonite-beliefs.html)
(Or, rather, more than not, just out of touch with 'supposed' reality.
We're not "modern America".
We pride ourselves on actually having a clue on what we are talking about, and do not need you to try and "educate" us, you condescending little idiot.
She does this. It's her MO. Posting dumbass links to stir the shit. Ugh. Fr00by, give it up, man, we're on to your shit. And quit tonguing Rog or his nurses will come after you with hypodermics.
Quote from: Ruby on September 24, 2010, 08:03:29 PM
My point is obviously missed completely because of the fact it was posted by 'me'.
Modern America is not well read, nor well educated about the different sects within our own religions, let alone religions from other countries.
Does the board seriously think this conclusion is 'mine'? Perhaps I only am a representation of some of the 'more willing to be less ignorant'.
Another though toward this is the consideration toward what percentage of Modern America lives like this http://www.gotquestions.org/Mennonite-beliefs.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/Mennonite-beliefs.html)
(Or, rather, more than not, just out of touch with 'supposed' reality.
You posted a link to Sharia law. You said there was more at issue than just a mosque. We aren't assuming you agree with the link, but we are assuming that you at least think the link is related to the issue at hand, which in this case it is not.
As an example, if the discussion was on Cell Phones and you posted a link explaining the details on how tinfoil hats protect against microwave brain control we'd have to assume (given no commentary from you) that you felt cell phones or cell phone towers were some sort of mind control ray.
If you are simply posting random links that do not relate to either the issue or your own views on the issue that is spamming, please stop.
food for thought
http://loremipsumtext.com/
Please see my "Idiot's Hall" thread, as I refuse to trash up our Almighty Cain's with my apparent condescending idiocy. :mrgreen:
Respect so given...
No, I think I'd rather continue it here.
And what makes you think you are deserving of my respect? Haven't you heard of the law of supply and demand? My respect wouldn't have the value it currently does if I simply gave it to every idiot with an inflated sense of importance, which seems to be all of them.
You got one thing correct though, your idiocy is apparent, to anyone willing to risk the brain damage and look at your inane posts and attempts at ego-bolstering.
Quote from: Ruby on September 25, 2010, 01:11:02 AM
Please see my "Idiot's Hall" thread, as I refuse to trash up our Almighty Cain's with my apparent condescending idiocy. :mrgreen:
Respect so given...
STILL HASN'T ACKNOWLEDGED THAT SHARIA LAW HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A SUFI COMMUNITY CENTER.
I suspect that she thinks she's different from others when she spouts the same shit about the cultural center, homosexuality, etc. just because she's a pah-gun.
Aye, my obvious and 'undeserving' respect toward, um, eh, Cain.
I am seriously not even a little dependent upon his return.
Self-sufficiency can be a bitch for some, yet, for no one more than a devoted, well endowed housewife BY CHOICE.
:lulz:
How dependent does the board honestly think we are without our, um, traditionalists? You idiot-ass condescending mind fucks have so little regard for the things that actually work and for the things that matter to more than half of America. You seem to have less than a shred of understanding toward religious tolerance within your own backyard. Oh, yeyee, let me make better sense to say this: "Cling to the modernisms of supposed tolerance, until you reverse yourselves back to where it began, where it resides, where it will continually rest, yet you still have no fucking clue."
I wasn't initially here to belittle anyone. What has happened is an obvious return of what what given.
As America, we are sadly being more than a little represented here.
Grass roots that withstand the sands of time, submissive women, tolerant men, 'spiritually' educated children, ie, these are the things that the Islamic faith pursues. Mosque or no mosque, be it a Fat fuck from Texas or Kentucky, those things are completely mote.
Religion has the potential to breed hysteria just as superstition potentially teaches schizophrenia. So much, eh, too much, should just not be expected for the mainstream to catch on to.
For as wise as we study to be, does the board seriously assume our almighty Cain is the shit? Aye, he probably is, with his, um, (politically correct) significant other.
However, the more is to be said about the fact that our modern vision is limited by nothing more than our proposed MODERNISM. Our grassroots, our fundies, our traditionalists are what grounds us and will keep us irrefutably connected to the economy-lacking, supposed uneducated, weak and feeble third world countries that will purhaps ultimately deliver us from ourselves.
Aye, you wanted my opinion or not, there it was.
Is it not completely ludicris to argue by agreeing?
I confess. I do not masturbate.
Ruby: Is English your first language?
Ruby: είναι η αγγλική την πρώτη σας γλώσσα;
How cute.
I do not currently require a nemesis, however. And I would wish for someone more intellectually capable than yourself, regardless. Your incoherent, half-rambling finger sploogings are amusing though, in a "what the hell is wrong with you" kind of way.
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2010, 02:07:52 AM
How cute.
I do not currently require a nemesis, however. And I would wish for someone more intellectually capable than yourself, regardless. Your incoherent, half-rambling finger sploogings are amusing though, in a "what the hell is wrong with you" kind of way.
PKLS, anybody?
Quote from: Ruby on September 25, 2010, 02:00:21 AM
Aye, my obvious and 'undeserving' respect toward, um, eh, Cain.
I am seriously not even a little dependent upon his return.
Self-sufficiency can be a bitch for some, yet, for no one more than a devoted, well endowed housewife BY CHOICE.
:lulz:
How dependent does the board honestly think we are without our, um, traditionalists? You idiot-ass condescending mind fucks have so little regard for the things that actually work and for the things that matter to more than half of America. You seem to have less than a shred of understanding toward religious tolerance within your own backyard. Oh, yeyee, let me make better sense to say this: "Cling to the modernisms of supposed tolerance, until you reverse yourselves back to where it began, where it resides, where it will continually rest, yet you still have no fucking clue."
I wasn't initially here to belittle anyone. What has happened is an obvious return of what what given.
As America, we are sadly being more than a little represented here.
Grass roots that withstand the sands of time, submissive women, tolerant men, 'spiritually' educated children, ie, these are the things that the Islamic faith pursues. Mosque or no mosque, be it a Fat fuck from Texas or Kentucky, those things are completely mote.
Religion has the potential to breed hysteria just as superstition potentially teaches schizophrenia. So much, eh, too much, should just not be expected for the mainstream to catch on to.
For as wise as we study to be, does the board seriously assume our almighty Cain is the shit? Aye, he probably is, with his, um, (politically correct) significant other.
However, the more is to be said about the fact that our modern vision is limited by nothing more than our proposed MODERNISM. Our grassroots, our fundies, our traditionalists are what grounds us and will keep us irrefutably connected to the economy-lacking, supposed uneducated, weak and feeble third world countries that will purhaps ultimately deliver us from ourselves.
Aye, you wanted my opinion or not, there it was.
Is it not completely ludicris to argue by agreeing?
STILL HASN'T ACKNOWLEDGED THAT SHARIA LAW HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A SUFI COMMUNITY CENTER.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 25, 2010, 02:08:44 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2010, 02:07:52 AM
How cute.
I do not currently require a nemesis, however. And I would wish for someone more intellectually capable than yourself, regardless. Your incoherent, half-rambling finger sploogings are amusing though, in a "what the hell is wrong with you" kind of way.
PKLS, anybody?
PKLS wasn't convinced she was my intellectual superior.
Sadly, as that would've made the whole thing far funnier than it already was.
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2010, 02:15:48 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 25, 2010, 02:08:44 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2010, 02:07:52 AM
How cute.
I do not currently require a nemesis, however. And I would wish for someone more intellectually capable than yourself, regardless. Your incoherent, half-rambling finger sploogings are amusing though, in a "what the hell is wrong with you" kind of way.
PKLS, anybody?
PKLS wasn't convinced she was my intellectual superior.
Sadly, as that would've made the whole thing far funnier than it already was.
Damn. A guy can dream.
Actually, I would never wish that bitch back on you. Ever.
"What the hell is wrong with you?"
Oh. Um. Well, it could be that I DO NOT USUALLY masterbate, FFS.
Confusion is fun to tinker within, eh?
Is it as good for you as it is for me?
Let me be bitch.
Aye, so you drew straws for the strap on tonight?
I happen to prefer the glass heat with attached beads.
Here's a one time only offer. Let's agree to ignore each other. I would advise you to take it.
Does anybody have any idea what Ruby is talking about? On the rare occasions when she forms a coherent sentence it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the context.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on September 25, 2010, 03:11:20 AM
Does anybody have any idea what Ruby is talking about? On the rare occasions when she forms a coherent sentence it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the context.
This is the main problem with her communication style. That and refusing to acknowledge that points she had brought up have been addressed, instead jumping 'randomly' to something semi-related and blathering on about the new peripheral topic without connecting it to the context of the ongoing discussion. Sometimes this happens mid-post.
I call this
"OOH-SHINY"-schizophrenia.
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
schizophrenia - any of several psychotic disorders characterized by distortions of reality and
disturbances of thought and language and withdrawal from social contact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia
schizophrenia - a mental disorder characterized by
a disintegration of the process of thinking and of emotional responsiveness. It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or
disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by
significant social [...] dysfunction.Of course, that's not a medical diagnosis, but "If it quacks like a duck...."
Well she admittedly trolls by posting those links purely to kick up a fuss (re-read the ATTN Ruby thread for the evidence) so actually attempting to interact with her is a losing proposition.
The best thing to do is fire off a couple of snarky sentences, grab some popcorn and kick back as she spazzes out and writes a 500 word essay on how smart she is, plus whatever her pet current concern may be.
No, sexually perverse strappin' individuals would have absolutely nothing to do with a mosque of any kind, be it with glass heat and beads or spikes.
:gobblerofcocks:
America™ is under attack.
That's right, there is an invasion of bedbugs. Muslim terrorists are suspected. Homeland Security has captured several bedbug suspects and are currently questioning then at Gitmo.
Yeyee for modern intellect AND Cain... He who needeth, um, no glass strap on.
Done ranting my 500.
:gobblerofcocks:
Oh, you'll do it again. You can't help yourself, it's pathological.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on September 25, 2010, 03:11:20 AM
Does anybody have any idea what Ruby is talking about? On the rare occasions when she forms a coherent sentence it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the context.
I understood the sex talk perfectly. Who she was flirting with I am not sure, I got and understood the flirt though. There were some interesting technical bits about strapons and glass beads.
The fact that the only time I have clearly understood Ruby she was talking about sex toys bothers me slightly though.
That was the part I understood that made no sense in the context.
I've only meet one middle eastern muslim, few russia ones and a good handful of africa ones. Id say discounting a secret black brother I've meet maybe a small percent of their faith maybe half the factions who knows,. with exception of Iran who mostly likes throwing rocks to troll America. I've never known someone who practices Islam to be abused towards females, infact I say women control the family and thus usually have most of the power.
then again all christians like to molest children
Quote from: Pēleus on September 25, 2010, 10:08:36 AM
I've only meet one middle eastern muslim, few russia ones and a good handful of africa ones. Id say discounting a secret black brother I've meet maybe a small percent of their faith maybe half the factions who knows,. with exception of Iran who mostly likes throwing rocks to troll America. I've never known someone who practices Islam to be abused towards females, infact I say women control the family and thus usually have most of the power.
then again all christians like to molest children
Haven't you heard? Jesus LOVES the little children.
BTW, sort of on-topic, I read a news report this week on research done in the Dutch muslim community, and it turns out that the most extreme/fundie muslims in the Netherlands are actually the least/not at all responsible for crime among immigrants / people of maroccan descent / etc.
It has to be noted btw, that the statistics among maroccans overall do point out a significantly higher crime rate, especially among the younger ones. It's just that that's just your regular run-of-the-mill higher crime rate among immigrants for a variety of socio-whatever reasons that we've seen with pretty much any wave of immigrants in Dutch history (also declining after a while by itself), and we can now fairly say that it at least has nothing to do with the Islam itself.
Quote from: Triple Zero on September 25, 2010, 06:57:51 PM
BTW, sort of on-topic, I read a news report this week on research done in the Dutch muslim community, and it turns out that the most extreme/fundie muslims in the Netherlands are actually the least/not at all responsible for crime among immigrants / people of maroccan descent / etc.
It has to be noted btw, that the statistics among maroccans overall do point out a significantly higher crime rate, especially among the younger ones. It's just that that's just your regular run-of-the-mill higher crime rate among immigrants for a variety of socio-whatever reasons that we've seen with pretty much any wave of immigrants in Dutch history (also declining after a while by itself), and we can now fairly say that it at least has nothing to do with the Islam itself.
Did you think it was, at one point? Surely not.
No don't worry, it's more that I'm happy with the research cause it means I can point people that do conflate these issues to the facts.
Quote from: Triple Zero on September 28, 2010, 08:25:24 AM
No don't worry, it's more that I'm happy with the research cause it means I can point people that do conflate these issues to the facts.
:lol: Actually, Trip, I wasn't worried. ;) Just wanted clarification, in a very pedantic way.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on September 25, 2010, 08:23:53 AM
That was the part I understood that made no sense in the context.
Yea I couldn't really figure it what it had to do with anything. The best I can come up with is a) She thinks that no-one on this board has heard of sex so it MUST be shocking to throw out some mild sexual terminology. (strap ons, oh my!) or b) she is that sexually repressed (or maybe TCC is and that's what she's used to) and is like a child finding out about sex and curse words. Is all of TCC like this?
BALLS!! (teehee) CLEVELAND STEAMER!! (*giggle*) BLUMPKINS! (lolololol)
Her posting style reminds me of on ex-girlfriend of one of our friends, who posts such gems on Facebook as the following: "omg! The Everytown Police are dumber as a bag of rocks" (I still haven't stopped laughing at that one)
/off topic