I am curious about something I noticed while reading on the forums here. I went and read the BIP and PD to make sure I wasn't just hallucinating and I'm pretty sure I'm not at this point.
First of all, to make sure I didn't totally misread everything, one of the general ideas in BIP is that each person sees everything from his/her own viewpoint which is based on his/her life up to that point. I see the world through my BIP, you see the world through yours and what we each see can be totally different, even if we are looking at the same things. The society one is raised in contributes a lot to the bars of the prison. We have the choice to just blindly exist in our BIP or to realize what it is and choose to change it to suit ourselves, adding in what we want and taking away what we don't want (in the BIP that seemed to be mainly mainstream societal gobblety gook).
Ok, now if what I just stated is correct (or close to correct or not blatantly wrong and misread) then what I have been noticing is true. I debated for quite awhile over posting this, but I'm really curious about the correlation I'm seeing and I'm hoping that people can get past the term in about to use and address what I noticed. Here's the part I'm expecting to get flamed for. This concept is a basic one in some shamanic paths. I've known this and used this as my world view for years, long before I ever knew about Discordians. I'm curious why there is such disparagement for a system of thought that has such similarities. I'm also curious what the differences in thought on this concept might be since I couldn't puzzle that out while I was reading beyond the stress placed on mainstream societal issues in the BIP.
It's quite simple. Because shamanism is made up bullshit invented by epileptics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epilepsy#History) in order to get villagers to hand over their goat.
It's the dark side (http://lesswrong.com/lw/uy/dark_side_epistemology/). And shamans (priests, imams etc) are so humourless when you mock their clearly false beliefs.
The word 'curious' summoned me. I'm interested in this discussion. But mostly I'm amused you have an avatar here that you'd be banned for using on TCC. I will think on this and get back to you.
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 14, 2011, 12:07:47 AM
The word 'curious' summoned me. I'm interested in this discussion. But mostly I'm amused you have an avatar here that you'd be banned for using on TCC. I will think on this and get back to you.
:lulz: I believe that is the avatar I had before the one that landed me in TU, that was deleted for being "pornographic".
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
Then you need to harass this person (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6821) with your visions of imminent doom more often.
Quote from: Cain on May 14, 2011, 12:46:32 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
Then you need to harass this person (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6821) with your visions of imminent doom more often.
That can be arranged.
But I want mah GOATS. :lulz:
I always thought that the point of knowing about your prison was to escape, and searching for truth is better than banging the bars of your cell with a tin can, so to speak.
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 14, 2011, 02:23:01 AM
I always thought that the point of knowing about your prison was to escape, and searching for truth is better than banging the bars of your cell with a tin can, so to speak.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
Let me see if I understand what you guys are saying. And please correct me if I am wrong.
You guys are suggesting that shamanism is a something that will dig you deeper into the bowels of the prison, by its very nature. Instead of allowing you to free yourself from the prison as much as possible.
Sort of like getting thrown into solitary or having time added instead of going for time off for good behavior?
And getting out or trying to free yourself is the goal of Discordianism?
Which leaves me with the question - but what if shamanism works?
And that makes me wonder if trying to make things like shamanism work isn't another cell in BIP . . .
Which leaves me thinking I shouldn't think when I wake up from a nap until I've had a Pepsi and perhaps a shower.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 14, 2011, 02:56:12 AM
Which leaves me with the question - but what if shamanism works?
I'd like to answer that with a question: What if monkeys rocket out of my arse on jet-propelled unicycles?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 14, 2011, 02:23:01 AM
I always thought that the point of knowing about your prison was to escape, and searching for truth is better than banging the bars of your cell with a tin can, so to speak.
Ok, that's pretty much what I learned elsewhere, just with slightly different terms. What I learned was that it wasn't so much about escaping as it was about recognizing the inherent constraints and letting them go, accepting the limitations and by acceptance going beyond them. Also it involved understanding others in a much more realistic way than is generally taught.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 14, 2011, 02:56:12 AM
Let me see if I understand what you guys are saying. And please correct me if I am wrong.
You guys are suggesting that shamanism is a something that will dig you deeper into the bowels of the prison, by its very nature. Instead of allowing you to free yourself from the prison as much as possible.
Sort of like getting thrown into solitary or having time added instead of going for time off for good behavior?
That's what I figured, but when the teachings were so similar I got curious. Hell, Casteneda is quoted in the BIP. (and lets not turn this into bashing that particular set of teachings which is easy enough to do, it's just another construct after all).
I'm curious how a path that teaches the same concept could be villified so much. Discordianism is a cell in the prison just as much as shamanism is and both have the same concept.
QuoteAnd getting out or trying to free yourself is the goal of Discordianism?
If so it's pretty much the same as what I've been learning, hence my curiosity on the subject.
QuoteWhich leaves me with the question - but what if shamanism works?
Depending on what part of shamanism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work. If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have. Smoke, mirrors and manipulation can be powerful tools. The metaphysical stuff is really up to each person to make heads or tails of and the opinions that arise from that are simply another bar (or construct), no matter which direction you take.
QuoteAnd that makes me wonder if trying to make things like shamanism work isn't another cell in BIP . . .
In what I've learned, yes it is. I'm thinking it's the same for the BIP...?
QuoteWhich leaves me thinking I shouldn't think when I wake up from a nap until I've had a Pepsi and perhaps a shower.
LOL The whole similarity make me feel that way...
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 14, 2011, 02:56:12 AM
Which leaves me with the question - but what if shamanism works?
What do you mean "works"?
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 04:04:54 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 14, 2011, 02:56:12 AM
Which leaves me with the question - but what if shamanism works?
What do you mean "works"?
That instead of being another method of entrapment, it allows a certain acceptance, awareness, and freedom of constraint.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 14, 2011, 02:56:12 AM
And getting out or trying to free yourself is the goal of Discordianism?
wow
Im in the wrong religion
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.
IOW, the shaman is an authority figure and everybody else is bringing him skins and horses asking him to fix things. He's like the Pope, he's considered a middleman or a bridge to the supernatural.
Ever heard of "Every man and woman is a Pope" or "Think for yourself, schmuck"?
QuoteDepending on what part of shamanism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work. If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have. Smoke, mirrors and manipulation can be powerful tools. The metaphysical stuff is really up to each person to make heads or tails of and the opinions that arise from that are simply another bar (or construct), no matter which direction you take.
:|
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
(and lets not turn this into bashing that particular set of teachings which is easy enough to do, it's just another construct after all).
This isn't TCC, you don't get to dictate what turn threads take here.
Quote from: Aloe on May 14, 2011, 04:38:21 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
(and lets not turn this into bashing that particular set of teachings which is easy enough to do, it's just another construct after all).
This isn't TCC, you don't get to dictate what turn threads take here.
It's a reasonable enough request, though, or it would be if she could provide more reason than "It's just another construct".
Did TCC ever do anything about that horrible skin that made the page take fifteen minutes to load?
Depending on what part of monarchism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work. If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.
Depending on what part of warlordism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work. If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.
Depending on what part of Nazism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work. If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.
Also http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html
What the fuck does "work" mean? We're talking about reality, not what you can bullshit people into believing which, as history shows, can be virtually anything. Does shamanism provide a realistic model of the world? How realistic? Are other models better?
(The answers for those wondering are no, not very and most certainly yes)
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 14, 2011, 04:40:14 AM
Quote from: Aloe on May 14, 2011, 04:38:21 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
(and lets not turn this into bashing that particular set of teachings which is easy enough to do, it's just another construct after all).
This isn't TCC, you don't get to dictate what turn threads take here.
It's a reasonable enough request, though, or it would be if she could provide more reason than "It's just another construct".
It's another way of looking at things. I'm not promoting it or negating it (Casteneda's stuff) as a historical truth or falsehood. I'm very aware people can tear apart the historical part of his path. I only brought it up because it was in the BIP and that fascinated me.
I wasn't dictating, I was more requesting for the reasons given above. I really am interesting in this subject or I wouldn't have posted it. I'd really like to hear what other people think about it.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 14, 2011, 04:25:12 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.
IOW, the shaman is an authority figure and everybody else is bringing him skins and horses asking him to fix things. He's like the Pope, he's considered a middleman or a bridge to the supernatural.
Yes, and to hold that position he had to have some ability at convincing people that he COULD fix things and that there was a supernatural for him to be a bridge to.
QuoteEver heard of "Every man and woman is a Pope" or "Think for yourself, schmuck"?
Yes, I have. I'm not comparing/contrasting shamanism and Discordianism, just this particular aspect that I have found similar in both of them. They are by no means the same, which is why I found the similarity so fascinating.
P.S. And TCC still has the same background.
Quote from: Cain on May 14, 2011, 04:45:04 AM
Depending on what part of monarchism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work. If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.
Depending on what part of warlordism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work. If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.
Depending on what part of Nazism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work. If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.
Also http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html
And, your point? All of the above are true. You can pull out a history book and point at areas that did work. It's sort of hard to use a word without accessing it's history if it has one.
QuoteWhat the fuck does "work" mean? We're talking about reality, not what you can bullshit people into believing which, as history shows, can be virtually anything. Does shamanism provide a realistic model of the world? How realistic? Are other models better?
(The answers for those wondering are no, not very and most certainly yes)
I didn't start this thread to debate shamanism as a path. I have my own opinions and really don't care if you or anyone else shares them or not, honestly. I could have come across the similarity I've found in passing and not follow a path even vaguely related and I'd STILL be curious about it.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 14, 2011, 04:07:30 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 04:04:54 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 14, 2011, 02:56:12 AM
Which leaves me with the question - but what if shamanism works?
What do you mean "works"?
That instead of being another method of entrapment, it allows a certain acceptance, awareness, and freedom of constraint.
Well, have you read any Robert Anton Wilson? That shit's ALL modern shamanism.
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 05:15:18 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 14, 2011, 04:07:30 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 04:04:54 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 14, 2011, 02:56:12 AM
Which leaves me with the question - but what if shamanism works?
What do you mean "works"?
That instead of being another method of entrapment, it allows a certain acceptance, awareness, and freedom of constraint.
Well, have you read any Robert Anton Wilson? That shit's ALL modern shamanism.
I found a quote from him about his goals, ""to try to get people into a state of generalized agnosticism, not agnosticism about God alone but agnosticism about everything"
I like "agnosticism about everything."
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Curious, here. I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.
Who's doing this teaching?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Curious, here. I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.
Who's doing this teaching?
The universal consciousness we all have access to, using the other 90% of our brains Scientists don't know about.
Quote from: Slyph on May 14, 2011, 07:24:10 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Curious, here. I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.
Who's doing this teaching?
The universal consciousness we all have access to, using the other 90% of our brains Scientists don't know about.
Blarg. It's all bullshit,
admittedly made up by some tard 60 years ago, and people waste their lives "studying" it and playing make-believe...And arguing about what fucking color the handle of your Cutlery World "Athame" has to be, or who gets to be a "crone" or "high priestess" or whatever other fake authority position is in question.
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
That can be fixed.
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
You wouldn't take care of them. You'd get bored, and I'd wind up walking the damn things.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Curious, here. I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.
Who's doing this teaching?
Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation. You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from. I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 07:53:42 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Curious, here. I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.
Who's doing this teaching?
Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation. You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from. I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.
Soooo...No actual sources, then?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:55:02 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 07:53:42 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Curious, here. I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.
Who's doing this teaching?
Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation. You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from. I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.
Soooo...No actual sources, then?
Dude...so like I channeled afrodite and sore and this due with a a lot of arms and oh shit there was a this book i rote with spells and shit in it. Am I a wizard?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:55:02 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 07:53:42 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Curious, here. I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.
Who's doing this teaching?
Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation. You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from. I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.
Soooo...No actual sources, then?
Um... I just explained the term. The sources would be whatever books, people, etc... that contribute to that particular school of thought, unless books and people are no longer sources in which case you're right.
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
I expect that you could ask Trip and RWHN to get your goat at any time, however.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:14:17 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:55:02 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 07:53:42 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Curious, here. I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.
Who's doing this teaching?
Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation. You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from. I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.
Soooo...No actual sources, then?
Um... I just explained the term. The sources would be whatever books, people, etc... that contribute to that particular school of thought, unless books and people are no longer sources in which case you're right.
The broadly accepted meaning of "source" here at PD is either to link to relevant blogs or posts or whatnot, or quotes from books if there's nothing on the internet handy. Even wikipedia, even though it's wikipedia, is a source (though I would just use that as a distraction while you find a REAL source.)
We don't take statements or disfavored information for granted, I thought you would have figured that out by now?
Also (and though I only speak for myself here I'm reasonably confident that I could be speaking for most of us), who the fuck ever said that Discordianism was supposed to teach anyone anything? Frankly, I'm not only NOT interested in teaching strangers how to live better lives, I'm actively against it.
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 14, 2011, 02:23:01 AM
I always thought that the point of knowing about your prison was to escape, and searching for truth is better than banging the bars of your cell with a tin can, so to speak.
You can't actually escape. Because you exist in one cell of many within the prison. However, being aware of the BIP allows you to see the connections to other cells. That is, you have the awareness to surround yourself with some different bars. Or, others might recognize their cell, see different options, but come to the conclusion they are happy where they are and remain.
To escape the prison would mean escaping the bounds of human limitation, which of course isn't possible. However, having that awareness allows you to discover more within those limitations. It allows you to see the different Paths that are available to you between life and death.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 07:53:42 AM
Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation. You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from. I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.
Speaking as one of the authors of BIP, I wouldn't call what we did as "teaching". The goal wasn't to tell people how to do something. It was more like shining a light on something for which the reader may have been in the dark. "Think For Yourself, Schmuck" isn't instruction. We never and don't tell people
how to think for themselves. We just recommend highly that they do it, and the BIP gives some examples and evidence as to why that would be desirable. It really isn't instruction at all.
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 14, 2011, 11:53:17 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 07:53:42 AM
Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation. You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from. I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.
Speaking as one of the authors of BIP, I wouldn't call what we did as "teaching". The goal wasn't to tell people how to do something. It was more like shining a light on something for which the reader may have been in the dark. "Think For Yourself, Schmuck" isn't instruction. We never and don't tell people how to think for themselves. We just recommend highly that they do it, and the BIP gives some examples and evidence as to why that would be desirable. It really isn't instruction at all.
I second this.
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 04:04:54 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 14, 2011, 02:56:12 AM
Which leaves me with the question - but what if shamanism works?
What do you mean "works"?
Well, according to this description:
Quote from: WyldkatDepending on what part of shamanism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work. If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have. Smoke, mirrors and manipulation can be powerful tools.
When they lied, deceived and manipulated in order to be able to hold prominent positions in society, if people ended up believing the bullshit, that means that it worked.
So, the part of shamanism that has been historically proven to work, is more commonly known as "politics".
Nothing more and nothing less.
QuoteThe metaphysical stuff is really up to each person to make heads or tails of and the opinions that arise from that are simply another bar (or construct), no matter which direction you take.
"... and the rest is cultural differences."
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 14, 2011, 09:20:45 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
I expect that you could ask Trip and RWHN to get your goat at any time, however.
Nigel, epilepsy doesn't make people
give you goats. It does however, permit the
seizure.
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 14, 2011, 09:20:45 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
I expect that you could ask Trip and RWHN to get your goat at any time, however.
Are you calling me a troll? ;)
I think Wyldkat and CPD probably need to read the BIP again.
They can do while walking backwards, widdershins, around a stone circle if it makes them happy, but it's definitely time to read it again.
Otherwise Wyldkat can just decide to get offended by "Niger" and cut to the chase.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 14, 2011, 11:54:39 AM
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 14, 2011, 11:53:17 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 07:53:42 AM
Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation. You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from. I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.
Speaking as one of the authors of BIP, I wouldn't call what we did as "teaching". The goal wasn't to tell people how to do something. It was more like shining a light on something for which the reader may have been in the dark. "Think For Yourself, Schmuck" isn't instruction. We never and don't tell people how to think for themselves. We just recommend highly that they do it, and the BIP gives some examples and evidence as to why that would be desirable. It really isn't instruction at all.
I second this.
This..the only parallel I've seen to anything else is
maybe some bits from Buddhism, not being able to enlighten a person, just to sort of point at it, "I can only liberate myself" and that sort of thing, but no gurus or masters or empowerments or hierarchies or any of that.
As an aside, I once heard that Jim Morrison went out in the desert and did acid with Casteneda and came back and told everybody he was a wanker. There's your shamanism. :lol:
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 14, 2011, 07:37:13 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
That can be fixed.
:fap:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:41:55 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
You wouldn't take care of them. You'd get bored, and I'd wind up walking the damn things.
Just because that's what happened with the emus doesn't mean it'll happen again.
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 14, 2011, 01:37:22 PM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 14, 2011, 09:20:45 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
I expect that you could ask Trip and RWHN to get your goat at any time, however.
Nigel, epilepsy doesn't make people give you goats. It does however, permit the seizure.
:lulz: I hate you for this!
IT'S NOT A SEIZURE IT'S A SHAMANIC CRISIS :fap:
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:14:17 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:55:02 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 07:53:42 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Curious, here. I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.
Who's doing this teaching?
Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation. You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from. I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.
Soooo...No actual sources, then?
Um... I just explained the term. The sources would be whatever books, people, etc... that contribute to that particular school of thought, unless books and people are no longer sources in which case you're right.
So...The people that contributed to its creation.
Not Gods, mind you, but people.
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 04:54:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:41:55 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
You wouldn't take care of them. You'd get bored, and I'd wind up walking the damn things.
Just because that's what happened with the emus doesn't mean it'll happen again.
And don't think the PPD has ever forgotten "The Night of the Raptors". If you don't behave, I'll tell everyone about it.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:38:27 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:14:17 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:55:02 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 07:53:42 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Curious, here. I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.
Who's doing this teaching?
Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation. You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from. I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.
Soooo...No actual sources, then?
Um... I just explained the term. The sources would be whatever books, people, etc... that contribute to that particular school of thought, unless books and people are no longer sources in which case you're right.
So...The people that contributed to its creation.
Not Gods, mind you, but people.
No where in this thread have I said anything about Gods teaching anyone anything... I'm talking about schools of thought and ideas held by those groups. I'm not talking about religion, or spirituality or any of that.
All this thread was about was a similarity I noticed between what I had learned over the years in my study of shamanism (only brought shamanism up because that's where I learned it) and a concept I had read here on PD. I did my research before posting, read the BIP and PD which seemed to confirm what I had previously noticed, so I posted hoping that someone who was more well versed in the subject from the Discordian end would be willing to do some compare contrast so that I could get a better handle on all of it.
Also, to those who say the BIP wasn't intended to teach, any written or spoken word can teach even if that is not the intent of the author or speaker. Shedding light on a subject is a method of teaching a person about it.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:39:24 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 04:54:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:41:55 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
You wouldn't take care of them. You'd get bored, and I'd wind up walking the damn things.
Just because that's what happened with the emus doesn't mean it'll happen again.
And don't think the PPD has ever forgotten "The Night of the Raptors". If you don't behave, I'll tell everyone about it.
:crankey:
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 08:10:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:39:24 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 04:54:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:41:55 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
You wouldn't take care of them. You'd get bored, and I'd wind up walking the damn things.
Just because that's what happened with the emus doesn't mean it'll happen again.
And don't think the PPD has ever forgotten "The Night of the Raptors". If you don't behave, I'll tell everyone about it.
:crankey:
See if I fucking don't.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:06:53 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:38:27 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:14:17 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:55:02 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 07:53:42 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Curious, here. I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.
Who's doing this teaching?
Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation. You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from. I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.
Soooo...No actual sources, then?
Um... I just explained the term. The sources would be whatever books, people, etc... that contribute to that particular school of thought, unless books and people are no longer sources in which case you're right.
So...The people that contributed to its creation.
Not Gods, mind you, but people.
No where in this thread have I said anything about Gods teaching anyone anything... I'm talking about schools of thought and ideas held by those groups. I'm not talking about religion, or spirituality or any of that.
All this thread was about was a similarity I noticed between what I had learned over the years in my study of shamanism (only brought shamanism up because that's where I learned it) and a concept I had read here on PD. I did my research before posting, read the BIP and PD which seemed to confirm what I had previously noticed, so I posted hoping that someone who was more well versed in the subject from the Discordian end would be willing to do some compare contrast so that I could get a better handle on all of it.
Also, to those who say the BIP wasn't intended to teach, any written or spoken word can teach even if that is not the intent of the author or speaker. Shedding light on a subject is a method of teaching a person about it.
Oh, you were expecting "serious conversation", having come back with that avatar.
Yeah. Go back to your dead fucking board and ask your tweaker buddy. Maybe he'll tell you.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:06:53 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:38:27 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:14:17 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:55:02 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 07:53:42 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Curious, here. I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.
Who's doing this teaching?
Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation. You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from. I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.
Soooo...No actual sources, then?
Um... I just explained the term. The sources would be whatever books, people, etc... that contribute to that particular school of thought, unless books and people are no longer sources in which case you're right.
So...The people that contributed to its creation.
Not Gods, mind you, but people.
No where in this thread have I said anything about Gods teaching anyone anything... I'm talking about schools of thought and ideas held by those groups. I'm not talking about religion, or spirituality or any of that.
All this thread was about was a similarity I noticed between what I had learned over the years in my study of shamanism (only brought shamanism up because that's where I learned it) and a concept I had read here on PD. I did my research before posting, read the BIP and PD which seemed to confirm what I had previously noticed, so I posted hoping that someone who was more well versed in the subject from the Discordian end would be willing to do some compare contrast so that I could get a better handle on all of it.
Also, to those who say the BIP wasn't intended to teach, any written or spoken word can teach even if that is not the intent of the author or speaker. Shedding light on a subject is a method of teaching a person about it.
Dear Child, as far as my participation in the BIP it was self improvement and just damn good fun. I couldn't care less what someone else thinks about it. Those of us who were a part of it saw something special forming.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 08:14:49 PM
Dear Child, as far as my participation in the BIP it was self improvement and just damn good fun. I couldn't care less what someone else thinks about it. Those of us who were a part of it saw something special forming.
DOES NOT APPLY TO NAZIS, THOUGH.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 08:12:51 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 08:10:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:39:24 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 04:54:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:41:55 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
You wouldn't take care of them. You'd get bored, and I'd wind up walking the damn things.
Just because that's what happened with the emus doesn't mean it'll happen again.
And don't think the PPD has ever forgotten "The Night of the Raptors". If you don't behave, I'll tell everyone about it.
:crankey:
See if I fucking don't.
All I have to say is that those winos were on fire already when I got there.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 08:16:54 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 08:14:49 PM
Dear Child, as far as my participation in the BIP it was self improvement and just damn good fun. I couldn't care less what someone else thinks about it. Those of us who were a part of it saw something special forming.
DOES NOT APPLY TO NAZIS, THOUGH.
Of course not, their interest is in placing others in their preconceived BIP.
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 14, 2011, 09:23:55 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:14:17 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:55:02 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 07:53:42 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Honest answer? Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP. It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.
No disagreement here. Everything is just a creation. What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here. I've also found echos of it elsewhere.
Curious, here. I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.
Who's doing this teaching?
Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation. You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from. I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.
Soooo...No actual sources, then?
Um... I just explained the term. The sources would be whatever books, people, etc... that contribute to that particular school of thought, unless books and people are no longer sources in which case you're right.
The broadly accepted meaning of "source" here at PD is either to link to relevant blogs or posts or whatnot, or quotes from books if there's nothing on the internet handy. Even wikipedia, even though it's wikipedia, is a source (though I would just use that as a distraction while you find a REAL source.)
We don't take statements or disfavored information for granted, I thought you would have figured that out by now?
Your response says pretty much what I said in the bolded part. In this conversation I was explaining the common use of a term among a specific circle of people that was asked about. I haven't written anything that I felt needed citation as of this point, but if I do I will cite it. :)
My original post was a question about the BIP which although there have been a few posts in response to it (I believe yours was one of them) still hasn't helped as much as I was hoping for.
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 08:17:54 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 08:12:51 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 08:10:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:39:24 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 04:54:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:41:55 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
You wouldn't take care of them. You'd get bored, and I'd wind up walking the damn things.
Just because that's what happened with the emus doesn't mean it'll happen again.
And don't think the PPD has ever forgotten "The Night of the Raptors". If you don't behave, I'll tell everyone about it.
:crankey:
See if I fucking don't.
All I have to say is that those winos were on fire already when I got there.
Oh, that's just another night in PDX. No, I was talking about the emus reaching the day care center, right while the kids were singing "Old MacDonald Had a Farm". They say 12 policemen, 6 firefighters, and 10 EMTs quit that day, and joined the Hare Krishnas.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:19:38 PM
My original post was a question about the BIP which although there have been a few posts in response to it (I believe yours was one of them) still hasn't helped as much as I was hoping for.
What? We haven't been what you were hoping for?
OH, POOR ICKLE WYLDKAT. MY HEART IS PUMPING PURPLE PISS FOR YOU AT ABOUT 1200 PSI.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 08:22:00 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:19:38 PM
My original post was a question about the BIP which although there have been a few posts in response to it (I believe yours was one of them) still hasn't helped as much as I was hoping for.
What? We haven't been what you were hoping for?
OH, POOR ICKLE WYLDKAT. MY HEART IS PUMPING PURPLE PISS FOR YOU AT ABOUT 1200 PSI.
Well, she could read all the BIP stuff out there instead. It was all about self help anyway.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 08:20:45 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 08:17:54 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 08:12:51 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 08:10:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:39:24 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 04:54:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:41:55 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
You wouldn't take care of them. You'd get bored, and I'd wind up walking the damn things.
Just because that's what happened with the emus doesn't mean it'll happen again.
And don't think the PPD has ever forgotten "The Night of the Raptors". If you don't behave, I'll tell everyone about it.
:crankey:
See if I fucking don't.
All I have to say is that those winos were on fire already when I got there.
Oh, that's just another night in PDX. No, I was talking about the emus reaching the day care center, right while the kids were singing "Old MacDonald Had a Farm". They say 12 policemen, 6 firefighters, and 10 EMTs quit that day, and joined the Hare Krishnas.
I had asked them nicely at least twice to keep it down. :argh!:
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 08:28:33 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 08:20:45 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 08:17:54 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 08:12:51 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 08:10:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:39:24 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 04:54:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 07:41:55 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
You wouldn't take care of them. You'd get bored, and I'd wind up walking the damn things.
Just because that's what happened with the emus doesn't mean it'll happen again.
And don't think the PPD has ever forgotten "The Night of the Raptors". If you don't behave, I'll tell everyone about it.
:crankey:
See if I fucking don't.
All I have to say is that those winos were on fire already when I got there.
Oh, that's just another night in PDX. No, I was talking about the emus reaching the day care center, right while the kids were singing "Old MacDonald Had a Farm". They say 12 policemen, 6 firefighters, and 10 EMTs quit that day, and joined the Hare Krishnas.
I had asked them nicely at least twice to keep it down. :argh!:
Yeah, but that doesn't excuse the old folk's home, the convent, or "reincarnating the Dalai Lama" while he was visiting.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 08:18:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 08:16:54 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 08:14:49 PM
Dear Child, as far as my participation in the BIP it was self improvement and just damn good fun. I couldn't care less what someone else thinks about it. Those of us who were a part of it saw something special forming.
DOES NOT APPLY TO NAZIS, THOUGH.
Of course not, their interest is in placing others in their preconceived BIP.
I found the BIP an interesting read. I'm not sure how one would go about placing someone else in their own BIP, it seems sort of counter the entire concept as I learned it. If it makes sense from what you know I'd like to know how that would work.
I found it interesting to find the idea that we are all in our own separate prison (mental construct of the world, whatever a person wishes to call it) here. I honestly hadn't expected it since many people seem to be so reactive to other people's thoughts and opinions. That part goes directly counter the concept I learned. I'm interested in the idea and how it is understood by the people here, since there must be differences to account for the reactivity.
Also I've been reading around and wouldn't have started this thread if I had found the answer elsewhere. If you have any threads to suggest, I would appreciate it.
I think there might be a disconnect between "shamanism" the historical tribal concept and "shamanism" the modern 'pagan' system.
In modern shamanism (the pagan stuff), I think we can draw a lot of parallels between it and the ideas expressed in the BiP. I mean its not the first metaphor for being stuck in your own perceptions.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:32:04 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 08:18:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2011, 08:16:54 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 08:14:49 PM
Dear Child, as far as my participation in the BIP it was self improvement and just damn good fun. I couldn't care less what someone else thinks about it. Those of us who were a part of it saw something special forming.
DOES NOT APPLY TO NAZIS, THOUGH.
Of course not, their interest is in placing others in their preconceived BIP.
I found the BIP an interesting read. I'm not sure how one would go about placing someone else in their own BIP, it seems sort of counter the entire concept as I learned it. If it makes sense from what you know I'd like to know how that would work.
I found it interesting to find the idea that we are all in our own separate prison (mental construct of the world, whatever a person wishes to call it) here. I honestly hadn't expected it since many people seem to be so reactive to other people's thoughts and opinions. That part goes directly counter the concept I learned. I'm interested in the idea and how it is understood by the people here, since there must be differences to account for the reactivity.
Also I've been reading around and wouldn't have started this thread if I had found the answer elsewhere. If you have any threads to suggest, I would appreciate it.
1) Thought control (temp bans, deleting posts, permabans, etc)
2) We construct our own prisons, there is no escape, our prison is in constant flux as we change.
Not everyone here is involved in the BIP project of completely subscribes to it.
It's a diverse community and just because there are major concepts or projects on the board doesn't mean there's something which every member most subscribe to.
Its true... my views on the BiP have spawned pages and pages of debate :D
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:32:04 PM
I found it interesting to find the idea that we are all in our own separate prison (mental construct of the world, whatever a person wishes to call it) here. I honestly hadn't expected it since many people seem to be so reactive to other people's thoughts and opinions. That part goes directly counter the concept I learned.
Translation: I have viewed this through my grid and made it into something with shamanizm and teachers and stuff. I am looking for stuff you gais consider authoritative so I can do you like I do the tards at TCC. This might fit the bill, that's why I started this thread. Now Imma pull the WHY DO YOU CALL ME ON MY BULLSHIT WHEN EVERBUDDY JUST SEES THINGS AS A CONSTRUCT ANYWAYS? card. Hyuk, hyuk.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 14, 2011, 08:53:32 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:32:04 PM
I found it interesting to find the idea that we are all in our own separate prison (mental construct of the world, whatever a person wishes to call it) here. I honestly hadn't expected it since many people seem to be so reactive to other people's thoughts and opinions. That part goes directly counter the concept I learned.
Translation: I have viewed this through my grid and made it into something with shamanizm and teachers and stuff. I am looking for stuff you gais consider authoritative so I can do you like I do the tards at TCC. This might fit the bill, that's why I started this thread. Now Imma pull the WHY DO YOU CALL ME ON MY BULLSHIT WHEN EVERBUDDY JUST SEES THINGS AS A CONSTRUCT ANYWAYS? card. Hyuk, hyuk.
:lulz:
As per normal, Stella wins the interbutts.
In the BiP you are the prisoner and the guard, and the walls and bars and everything else... the only person that can 'free' you is you.
MY INTERBUTTS! MINE MINE MINE! :lulz:
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 08:59:30 PM
In the BiP you are the prisoner and the guard, and the walls and bars and everything else... the only person that can 'free' you is you.
I go with the thinking that there is no real escape, just an occasional escape of a defective idea.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 09:01:02 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 08:59:30 PM
In the BiP you are the prisoner and the guard, and the walls and bars and everything else... the only person that can 'free' you is you.
I go with the thinking that there is no real escape, just an occasional escape of a defective idea.
Thus 'free' in quotes... myself, I tend to see the 'escape' as realizing that limitations aren't always prisons :)
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 09:11:05 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 09:01:02 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 08:59:30 PM
In the BiP you are the prisoner and the guard, and the walls and bars and everything else... the only person that can 'free' you is you.
I go with the thinking that there is no real escape, just an occasional escape of a defective idea.
Thus 'free' in quotes... myself, I tend to see the 'escape' as realizing that limitations aren't always prisons :)
Ok, that might be a difference. The similar concept that I work with you can rise above. As in once you realize that everything is a construct you can consciously choose whether to hook into any particular idea or not. You can't escape your own way of viewing the world, but your awareness of it can free you of some of the limitations of wearing blinders IF you choose to do so.
On second thought that's still pretty similar.
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 14, 2011, 08:36:24 PM
Not everyone here is involved in the BIP project of completely subscribes to it.
It's a diverse community and just because there are major concepts or projects on the board doesn't mean there's something which every member most subscribe to.
Never said or thought they were, or that anyone was expected to subscribe to it. :)
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 08:35:19 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:32:04 PM
I found the BIP an interesting read. I'm not sure how one would go about placing someone else in their own BIP, it seems sort of counter the entire concept as I learned it. If it makes sense from what you know I'd like to know how that would work.
I found it interesting to find the idea that we are all in our own separate prison (mental construct of the world, whatever a person wishes to call it) here. I honestly hadn't expected it since many people seem to be so reactive to other people's thoughts and opinions. That part goes directly counter the concept I learned. I'm interested in the idea and how it is understood by the people here, since there must be differences to account for the reactivity.
Also I've been reading around and wouldn't have started this thread if I had found the answer elsewhere. If you have any threads to suggest, I would appreciate it.
1) Thought control (temp bans, deleting posts, permabans, etc)
2) We construct our own prisons, there is no escape, our prison is in constant flux as we change.
1) Ok I can see that as a method online for someone who had mod powers. Hadn't really thought about online, more face to face.
2) I agree with all of this except the no escape to a certain extent (see above).
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 09:22:23 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 09:11:05 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 09:01:02 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 08:59:30 PM
In the BiP you are the prisoner and the guard, and the walls and bars and everything else... the only person that can 'free' you is you.
I go with the thinking that there is no real escape, just an occasional escape of a defective idea.
Thus 'free' in quotes... myself, I tend to see the 'escape' as realizing that limitations aren't always prisons :)
Ok, that might be a difference. The similar concept that I work with you can rise above. As in once you realize that everything is a construct you can consciously choose whether to hook into any particular idea or not. You can't escape your own way of viewing the world, but your awareness of it can free you of some of the limitations of wearing blinders IF you choose to do so.
I wou;dn't say 'rise above' I don't think... seems to indicate some kind of Enlightenment or Transcendence. More like recognizing that as humans we will always have limitations. Those limitations may be prisons, or they might be submarines or spaceships. They are limitations... but the only way we can explore the deep oceans or space. Having the limitations associated with being human, may simply be the vehicle from which we can experience life.
Hmmm...I like that.
Quote from: Payne on May 14, 2011, 01:56:42 PM
I think Wyldkat and CPD probably need to read the BIP again.
They can do while walking backwards, widdershins, around a stone circle if it makes them happy, but it's definitely time to read it again.
Otherwise Wyldkat can just decide to get offended by "Niger" and cut to the chase.
I hadn't read it at all before this. I just thought Wyldkat's post was interesting, knowing what I know of modern shamanism and what I've gleaned of BIP from random forum chatter. Started looking into BIP last night and am continuing today. Got distracted by the LessWrong blog halfway through, though. :S
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 09:32:12 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 09:22:23 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 09:11:05 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 09:01:02 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 08:59:30 PM
In the BiP you are the prisoner and the guard, and the walls and bars and everything else... the only person that can 'free' you is you.
I go with the thinking that there is no real escape, just an occasional escape of a defective idea.
Thus 'free' in quotes... myself, I tend to see the 'escape' as realizing that limitations aren't always prisons :)
Ok, that might be a difference. The similar concept that I work with you can rise above. As in once you realize that everything is a construct you can consciously choose whether to hook into any particular idea or not. You can't escape your own way of viewing the world, but your awareness of it can free you of some of the limitations of wearing blinders IF you choose to do so.
I wou;dn't say 'rise above' I don't think... seems to indicate some kind of Enlightenment or Transcendence. More like recognizing that as humans we will always have limitations. Those limitations may be prisons, or they might be submarines or spaceships. They are limitations... but the only way we can explore the deep oceans or space. Having the limitations associated with being human, may simply be the vehicle from which we can experience life.
I meant "rise above" more as in a "rise above a challenge" than any sort of enlightenment or transcendence.
I strongly agree with the bolded part.
So how does knowing about your BIP help/change interaction with other people? The way I see it is that being aware that we all have our own construct of the world makes it easier to accept that other people are going to act the way they are going to, my own sense of logic and fair play be damned. That's a very, very simplified explanation...
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 09:45:17 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 09:32:12 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 09:22:23 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 09:11:05 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 09:01:02 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 08:59:30 PM
In the BiP you are the prisoner and the guard, and the walls and bars and everything else... the only person that can 'free' you is you.
I go with the thinking that there is no real escape, just an occasional escape of a defective idea.
Thus 'free' in quotes... myself, I tend to see the 'escape' as realizing that limitations aren't always prisons :)
Ok, that might be a difference. The similar concept that I work with you can rise above. As in once you realize that everything is a construct you can consciously choose whether to hook into any particular idea or not. You can't escape your own way of viewing the world, but your awareness of it can free you of some of the limitations of wearing blinders IF you choose to do so.
I wou;dn't say 'rise above' I don't think... seems to indicate some kind of Enlightenment or Transcendence. More like recognizing that as humans we will always have limitations. Those limitations may be prisons, or they might be submarines or spaceships. They are limitations... but the only way we can explore the deep oceans or space. Having the limitations associated with being human, may simply be the vehicle from which we can experience life.
I meant "rise above" more as in a "rise above a challenge" than any sort of enlightenment or transcendence.
I strongly agree with the bolded part.
So how does knowing about your BIP help/change interaction with other people? The way I see it is that being aware that we all have our own construct of the world makes it easier to accept that other people are going to act the way they are going to, my own sense of logic and fair play be damned. That's a very, very simplified explanation...
You can use your limits as a crutch or as a springboard, I figure. But how that relates to other people depends on what their limits are, doesn't it?
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 09:45:17 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 09:32:12 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 09:22:23 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 09:11:05 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 09:01:02 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 08:59:30 PM
In the BiP you are the prisoner and the guard, and the walls and bars and everything else... the only person that can 'free' you is you.
I go with the thinking that there is no real escape, just an occasional escape of a defective idea.
Thus 'free' in quotes... myself, I tend to see the 'escape' as realizing that limitations aren't always prisons :)
Ok, that might be a difference. The similar concept that I work with you can rise above. As in once you realize that everything is a construct you can consciously choose whether to hook into any particular idea or not. You can't escape your own way of viewing the world, but your awareness of it can free you of some of the limitations of wearing blinders IF you choose to do so.
I wou;dn't say 'rise above' I don't think... seems to indicate some kind of Enlightenment or Transcendence. More like recognizing that as humans we will always have limitations. Those limitations may be prisons, or they might be submarines or spaceships. They are limitations... but the only way we can explore the deep oceans or space. Having the limitations associated with being human, may simply be the vehicle from which we can experience life.
I meant "rise above" more as in a "rise above a challenge" than any sort of enlightenment or transcendence.
I strongly agree with the bolded part.
So how does knowing about your BIP help/change interaction with other people? The way I see it is that being aware that we all have our own construct of the world makes it easier to accept that other people are going to act the way they are going to, my own sense of logic and fair play be damned. That's a very, very simplified explanation...
Yep, that and realizing that you have your own limitations and may not be seeing the whole view yourself.
For me the bit about my own limitations is quite important.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 09:45:17 PM
I meant "rise above" more as in a "rise above a challenge" than any sort of enlightenment or transcendence.
Huh?
People rise TO a challenge. They rise ABOVE circumstances, etc. - which is the same as transcending.
The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson
There we have RAW chiming in about it. From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.
(For WK's benefit and any others not familiar with the history of Discordianism he's one of the founders of Discordianism, along with Kerry Thornley and some others.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 09:52:08 PM
Yep, that and realizing that you have your own limitations and may not be seeing the whole view yourself.
For me the bit about my own limitations is quite important.
Everyone has limitations due to the fact that they are constructing their own reality, consciously or unconsciously as the case may be. You can't create what you don't know or aren't even aware of. With the prison imagery, the bars block quite a bit even if you know they are there.
On top of my own limitations figuring out where other people are coming from, or viewing me from is an issue. I've found that unless I try to figure out what on earth other people are seeing through their prison bars concerning me and issues that concern me, I might as well just be banging my head against a wall. I'll never really understand people as they understand themselves (and vice versa), but getting an idea of their viewpoint helps me to understand some of their actions that might otherwise make no sense. At that point it is my choice whether to keep beating my head against the wall, change my tactics, or just walk away.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 14, 2011, 11:42:15 PM
The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson
There we have RAW chiming in about it. From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.
(For WK's benefit and any others not familiar with the history of Discordianism he's one of the founders of Discordianism, along with Kerry Thornley and some others.
Thanks, I read up a little on him when he was mentioned earlier and I think I might have read some of his work at one point. I missed the fact he thought of Discordianism as a form of Shamanism though. Interesting. That could explain some of what I've been noticing.
ETA: Although that makes me REALLY curious where all the anti-shamanism stuff comes from around here. I know it's to each his own, but it's interesting to me that something one of the founders connected Discordianism with gets so vilified on a Discordian site.
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Also interesting. I understood that Discordia was to each his own and think for yourself, but I'm surprised that people would group themselves in any group without researching it, if not first then soon after getting interested in it. My own prejudice showing I guess. I am big on researching things that interest me. Doesn't it make it hard when there are no necessarily common points of reference?
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 02:24:56 AM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Also interesting. I understood that Discordia was to each his own and think for yourself, but I'm surprised that people would group themselves in any group without researching it, if not first then soon after getting interested in it. My own prejudice showing I guess. I am big on researching things that interest me. Doesn't it make it hard when there are no necessarily common points of reference?
We Discordians tend to stick apart :)
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 14, 2011, 11:42:15 PM
The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson
There we have RAW chiming in about it. From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.
(For WK's benefit and any others not familiar with the history of Discordianism he's one of the founders of Discordianism, along with Kerry Thornley and some others.
Is not.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 02:24:56 AM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Also interesting. I understood that Discordia was to each his own and think for yourself, but I'm surprised that people would group themselves in any group without researching it, if not first then soon after getting interested in it. My own prejudice showing I guess. I am big on researching things that interest me. Doesn't it make it hard when there are no necessarily common points of reference?
:lulz: Oh, good luck with THIS rabbit-hole. You seem to be looking for doctrine. There is no doctrine.
Have you ever read the Tao Te Ching? Good. Now you know as much about Discordianism as you need to get started.
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 03:17:37 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 02:24:56 AM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Also interesting. I understood that Discordia was to each his own and think for yourself, but I'm surprised that people would group themselves in any group without researching it, if not first then soon after getting interested in it. My own prejudice showing I guess. I am big on researching things that interest me. Doesn't it make it hard when there are no necessarily common points of reference?
:lulz: Oh, good luck with THIS rabbit-hole. You seem to be looking for doctrine. There is no doctrine.
Have you ever read the Tao Te Ching? Good. Now you know as much about Discordianism as you need to get started.
I'm not looking for doctrine, I'm looking to understand concepts to at least some extent. In my experience reading the literature about a subject helps. I've managed to learn a lot from this thread already.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 02:24:56 AM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Also interesting. I understood that Discordia was to each his own and think for yourself, but I'm surprised that people would group themselves in any group without researching it, if not first then soon after getting interested in it. My own prejudice showing I guess. I am big on researching things that interest me. Doesn't it make it hard when there are no necessarily common points of reference?
That's why YOU'RE the filthy pagan, and WE'RE the assholes who poke holes in your "reality".
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 03:16:03 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 14, 2011, 11:42:15 PM
The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson
There we have RAW chiming in about it. From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.
(For WK's benefit and any others not familiar with the history of Discordianism he's one of the founders of Discordianism, along with Kerry Thornley and some others.
Is not.
Is in some sense, is not in some sense, and is irrelevant in some sense.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 15, 2011, 04:37:06 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 03:16:03 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 14, 2011, 11:42:15 PM
The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson
There we have RAW chiming in about it. From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.
(For WK's benefit and any others not familiar with the history of Discordianism he's one of the founders of Discordianism, along with Kerry Thornley and some others.
Is not.
Is in some sense, is not in some sense, and is irrelevant in some sense.
:crankey:
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 03:54:05 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 03:17:37 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 02:24:56 AM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Also interesting. I understood that Discordia was to each his own and think for yourself, but I'm surprised that people would group themselves in any group without researching it, if not first then soon after getting interested in it. My own prejudice showing I guess. I am big on researching things that interest me. Doesn't it make it hard when there are no necessarily common points of reference?
:lulz: Oh, good luck with THIS rabbit-hole. You seem to be looking for doctrine. There is no doctrine.
Have you ever read the Tao Te Ching? Good. Now you know as much about Discordianism as you need to get started.
I'm not looking for doctrine, I'm looking to understand concepts to at least some extent. In my experience reading the literature about a subject helps. I've managed to learn a lot from this thread already.
So... wait, knowing little to nothing about it, why are you so surprised that not all Discordians have read Robert Anton Wilson? Are you also surprised that not all Discordians have read the Book of the Subgenius? Do you even know why you're surprised? Why not ask questions before forming judgments?
Well. You know every single pagan has not only memorized Bucky's Big Blue Book, but has also read Silver RavenWolf's entire body of work . . .
We have scintillating discussions on Starhawk's "The Fifth Sacred Thing" weekly and eagerly await Amber K's latest offering with bated breath. All of us. Everywhere.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 02:24:56 AM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Also interesting. I understood that Discordia was to each his own and think for yourself, but I'm surprised that people would group themselves in any group without researching it, if not first then soon after getting interested in it. My own prejudice showing I guess. I am big on researching things that interest me. Doesn't it make it hard when there are no necessarily common points of reference?
That's because you're a Pagan. You need rules, research, all that shit. We just jam our junk into whatever open ports the machine has, and wait to see what happens.
Sure, we all wind up with horrible scars and speech impediments that are better left undescribed, but we have FUN.
Remember FUN? It's what you used to have, before you started worrying about inconsequential shit so fucking much.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 03:54:05 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 03:17:37 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 02:24:56 AM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Also interesting. I understood that Discordia was to each his own and think for yourself, but I'm surprised that people would group themselves in any group without researching it, if not first then soon after getting interested in it. My own prejudice showing I guess. I am big on researching things that interest me. Doesn't it make it hard when there are no necessarily common points of reference?
:lulz: Oh, good luck with THIS rabbit-hole. You seem to be looking for doctrine. There is no doctrine.
Have you ever read the Tao Te Ching? Good. Now you know as much about Discordianism as you need to get started.
I'm not looking for doctrine, I'm looking to understand concepts to at least some extent. In my experience reading the literature about a subject helps. I've managed to learn a lot from this thread already.!!!
At its most basic I think the shared concept is that we're all Cosmic Schmucks, Talking Monkeys and Holy Men (or Women). The raging disagreement among Discordians is as much a part of Discordianism as anything else.
Discordianism isn't about what IS... but about whatever the individual Pope decides to see what they can get away with. This forum tends to be its own Cabal. There are Discordians that think the BiP is nonsense. There are Discordians that think the PD is nonsense. There are Discordians that like all of it, plus RAW's stuff... plus anything else that mentions the name Eris. There are Discordians that parrot the jokes from others and Discordians that hate every old Discordian joke...
And they're all equally Discordian.
I wonder what she'd say,
if she happened by today,
and saw us in our rituals of life?
Would she think we're doing well,
in our own chaotic hell,
or would she decide to add a little strife?
There's Erisians on the net,
who are trying, you can bet,
to spread those words of chaos writ by Mal.
But Discordians, you know,
might aim an extra blow,
at their brothers and their sisters of the Chao.
I have seen the common spat,
regarding this and that,
and who and what and where and why and how.
And in the orgy of the fray,
we oft forget our way,
and might spill our bitter tea upon our towel.
So I wonder what she'd say,
if she happened through this way,
and stopped to see the madness we had wrought.
I think she'd laugh the most,
and head back home to boast,
about the way in which her Children fought.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 05:40:59 AM
Well. You know every single pagan has not only memorized Bucky's Big Blue Book, but has also read Silver RavenWolf's entire body of work . . .
We have scintillating discussions on Starhawk's "The Fifth Sacred Thing" weekly and eagerly await Amber K's latest offering with bated breath. All of us. Everywhere.
Yeah, it's actually been pretty AMAZING reading MW and TCC (especially TCC) and realizing that most of the users, including (especially) the mods on TCC, have very obviously read almost none of the seminal/founding work on their own (alleged) religions.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 15, 2011, 05:41:32 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 02:24:56 AM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Also interesting. I understood that Discordia was to each his own and think for yourself, but I'm surprised that people would group themselves in any group without researching it, if not first then soon after getting interested in it. My own prejudice showing I guess. I am big on researching things that interest me. Doesn't it make it hard when there are no necessarily common points of reference?
That's because you're a Pagan. You need rules, research, all that shit. We just jam our junk into whatever open ports the machine has, and wait to see what happens.
Sure, we all wind up with horrible scars and speech impediments that are better left undescribed, but we have FUN.
Remember FUN? It's what you used to have, before you started worrying about inconsequential shit so fucking much.
:mittens:
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 05:35:57 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 03:54:05 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 03:17:37 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 02:24:56 AM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Also interesting. I understood that Discordia was to each his own and think for yourself, but I'm surprised that people would group themselves in any group without researching it, if not first then soon after getting interested in it. My own prejudice showing I guess. I am big on researching things that interest me. Doesn't it make it hard when there are no necessarily common points of reference?
:lulz: Oh, good luck with THIS rabbit-hole. You seem to be looking for doctrine. There is no doctrine.
Have you ever read the Tao Te Ching? Good. Now you know as much about Discordianism as you need to get started.
I'm not looking for doctrine, I'm looking to understand concepts to at least some extent. In my experience reading the literature about a subject helps. I've managed to learn a lot from this thread already.
So... wait, knowing little to nothing about it, why are you so surprised that not all Discordians have read Robert Anton Wilson? Are you also surprised that not all Discordians have read the Book of the Subgenius? Do you even know why you're surprised? Why not ask questions before forming judgments?
I'm mildly surprised that they haven't chosen to, simply because I, and most people I know, like to learn about subjects that interest them especially before identifying personally with them. I'm not a Discordian and I read the BIP and PD because I was interested in something that might be discussed in them.
I am asking questions. To ask a question one must have some sort of base to start from. Using a personal frame of reference to work from to compare and contrast generally helps me gain greater understanding of most subjects.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 05:40:59 AM
Well. You know every single pagan has not only memorized Bucky's Big Blue Book, but has also read Silver RavenWolf's entire body of work . . .
We have scintillating discussions on Starhawk's "The Fifth Sacred Thing" weekly and eagerly await Amber K's latest offering with bated breath. All of us. Everywhere.
LOL Ok, point. I've never read the Big Blue Book myself, although I have read Spiral Dance and a good number of the other notable books even though most of them aren't about my path. The thing is that if someone isn't a total newb in the pagan community they have heard of the books and understand to at least a basic extent certain key concepts (pentagram, rituals, grounding, etc...). I'm getting somewhat curious if there is anything along those lines here. Well I guess certain key phrases like "Think for yourself schmuck" would be sort of like that.
This is definitely very different than any other place I've visited.
I'm actually very good at having fun, believe it or not. *grins* I fed my cubscouts bugs and weeds this past week. I was rather disappointed when the moms refused their share. I do have an admittedly odd sense of humor at times...
You should have hung out at the old AAW MSN freechat room, Wyldkat. The "twelfth generation Strega" who didn't know what fucking country that path comes from and the white trash in Montana practicing 'authentic voodoo' would have left you rolling.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:06:10 AM
You should have hung out at the old AAW MSN freechat room, Wyldkat. The "twelfth generation Strega" who didn't know what fucking country that path comes from and the white trash in Montana practicing 'authentic voodoo' would have left you rolling.
*twitches* yeouch... Really? Claimed 12th generation and didn't know the country of origin? Wow..........
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 06:09:07 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:06:10 AM
You should have hung out at the old AAW MSN freechat room, Wyldkat. The "twelfth generation Strega" who didn't know what fucking country that path comes from and the white trash in Montana practicing 'authentic voodoo' would have left you rolling.
*twitches* yeouch... Really? Claimed 12th generation and didn't know the country of origin? Wow..........
12 generations gives you instant Pagan cred, doncha know? I mean, the only people in America who can tell you DICK about their family 12 generations ago are the fucking MORMONS, and they're as Pagan as it gets, right down to the silly underwear and insane rules.
12 generations, my entire arse. I can reliably track 5 generations of my family, and I know who the 2 generations before them were, but I know dick all about anyone farther than 4 generations back. Unless you're an obsessive geneologist with 12 generations of personal diaries cluttering up your house, you're probably the same way.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 06:09:07 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:06:10 AM
You should have hung out at the old AAW MSN freechat room, Wyldkat. The "twelfth generation Strega" who didn't know what fucking country that path comes from and the white trash in Montana practicing 'authentic voodoo' would have left you rolling.
*twitches* yeouch... Really? Claimed 12th generation and didn't know the country of origin? Wow..........
I have horror stories, Wyldkat. SCARY ONES. People who actually research their bullshit before rolling in it are a rarity.
We had dozens of teenage girls coming in daily, freshly turned to the path of love and light. One of them broke down in tears on a webcam chat with another chatter because someone said the word 'fuck' and the 'bad karma' that created would wipe out entire litters of kittens.
I shit you not.
And that isn't even covering people who don't read simply because they want to take a concept and run with it on their own. No, no. This is just talking about the 'true believers'.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:15:03 AM
We had dozens of teenage girls coming in daily, freshly turned to the path of love and light. One of them broke down in tears on a webcam chat with another chatter because someone said the word 'fuck' and the 'bad karma' that created would wipe out entire litters of kittens.
You need to tell me about this shit while it's happening. :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 15, 2011, 06:20:23 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:15:03 AM
We had dozens of teenage girls coming in daily, freshly turned to the path of love and light. One of them broke down in tears on a webcam chat with another chatter because someone said the word 'fuck' and the 'bad karma' that created would wipe out entire litters of kittens.
You need to tell me about this shit while it's happening. :lulz:
I didn't know you then, or I would have. That was my introduction into the pagan chat scene after I left TCC the first time and went seeking. MSN was a dark and twisted place ten years ago.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:22:41 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 15, 2011, 06:20:23 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:15:03 AM
We had dozens of teenage girls coming in daily, freshly turned to the path of love and light. One of them broke down in tears on a webcam chat with another chatter because someone said the word 'fuck' and the 'bad karma' that created would wipe out entire litters of kittens.
You need to tell me about this shit while it's happening. :lulz:
I didn't know you then, or I would have. That was my introduction into the pagan chat scene after I left TCC the first time and went seeking. MSN was a dark and twisted place ten years ago.
Oh, yeah, I'd have had a BLAST with that.
"No, we have chippers for that. We don't need karma."
Also, what's this karma shit doing in Paganism in the first place? That's Eastern, not mudhole/middle ages Europe.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:15:03 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 06:09:07 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:06:10 AM
You should have hung out at the old AAW MSN freechat room, Wyldkat. The "twelfth generation Strega" who didn't know what fucking country that path comes from and the white trash in Montana practicing 'authentic voodoo' would have left you rolling.
*twitches* yeouch... Really? Claimed 12th generation and didn't know the country of origin? Wow..........
I have horror stories, Wyldkat. SCARY ONES. People who actually research their bullshit before rolling in it are a rarity.
We had dozens of teenage girls coming in daily, freshly turned to the path of love and light. One of them broke down in tears on a webcam chat with another chatter because someone said the word 'fuck' and the 'bad karma' that created would wipe out entire litters of kittens.
I shit you not.
And that isn't even covering people who don't read simply because they want to take a concept and run with it on their own. No, no. This is just talking about the 'true believers'.
I'm sort of glad and disappointed that most of those never hit TCC long enough to post. I guess I've gotten spoiled by living in the geek commune and doing the whole read and think for yourself bit for so long with people who email me.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 15, 2011, 06:26:29 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:22:41 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 15, 2011, 06:20:23 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:15:03 AM
We had dozens of teenage girls coming in daily, freshly turned to the path of love and light. One of them broke down in tears on a webcam chat with another chatter because someone said the word 'fuck' and the 'bad karma' that created would wipe out entire litters of kittens.
You need to tell me about this shit while it's happening. :lulz:
I didn't know you then, or I would have. That was my introduction into the pagan chat scene after I left TCC the first time and went seeking. MSN was a dark and twisted place ten years ago.
Oh, yeah, I'd have had a BLAST with that.
"No, we have chippers for that. We don't need karma."
Also, what's this karma shit doing in Paganism in the first place? That's Eastern, not mudhole/middle ages Europe.
Well see it all started when this 13-year-old 'woman of the world' came into chat gushing about the letter she'd just gotten back from Silver Ravenwolf.
First she put down all the 'old people' who have 'worn this faith into the ground' and then said that it was up to her generation to 'revitalize' the 'most sacred practices of worshipping the Earth, Our Mother' . . .
Then she posted the letter line by line, which was mostly SRW cussing about 'parents who didn't understand' and how 'people will try to keep you down' but you have to 'be true to the pagan spirit inside of you'.
Somewhere in there was the explanation that karma was universal and we were all subject to the 3-fold-law, which was like karma only more correct, cool, and important. And even people who didn't believe in karma/3-fold-law were going to 'get theirs'.
And it went downhill from there.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 15, 2011, 04:37:06 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 03:16:03 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 14, 2011, 11:42:15 PM
The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson
There we have RAW chiming in about it. From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.
(For WK's benefit and any others not familiar with the history of Discordianism he's one of the founders of Discordianism, along with Kerry Thornley and some others.
Is not.
Is in some sense, is not in some sense, and is irrelevant in some sense.
This is just left over hippie bullshit. It's not about enlightenment, it's about doing your own fucking thinking and figuring shit out. In the end you dump nonsense as baggage full of unwanted bricks and if you are very lucky one day you will see The Horrible Truth™.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 06:29:22 AM
I'm sort of glad and disappointed that most of those never hit TCC long enough to post.
They'd just get banned.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:30:33 AM
Somewhere in there was the explanation that karma was universal and we were all subject to the 3-fold-law, which was like karma only more correct, cool, and important. And even people who didn't believe in karma/3-fold-law were going to 'get theirs'.
I never got mine. I feel ripped off.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 15, 2011, 06:33:35 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:30:33 AM
Somewhere in there was the explanation that karma was universal and we were all subject to the 3-fold-law, which was like karma only more correct, cool, and important. And even people who didn't believe in karma/3-fold-law were going to 'get theirs'.
I never got mine. I feel ripped off.
You live in Tucson. Karma might be taking pity on you.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Like me. I was here for close to 6 months before I read the PD, and i haven't read the BIP yet.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:35:20 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 15, 2011, 06:33:35 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:30:33 AM
Somewhere in there was the explanation that karma was universal and we were all subject to the 3-fold-law, which was like karma only more correct, cool, and important. And even people who didn't believe in karma/3-fold-law were going to 'get theirs'.
I never got mine. I feel ripped off.
You live in Tucson. Karma might be taking pity on fucking terrified of you.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 06:38:20 AM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Like me. I was here for close to 6 months before I read the PD, and i haven't read the BIP yet.
I read it today! The 2007 one. The 'original' link was broken. On the wiki thing, anyway.
I haven't read most of RAWs stuff (I!3 and Schrodingers Pussy), I read thePD and BIP too. However, I would disagree that there are "Founders" at all in Discordia.
We are building a religion,
We are building it bigger
We are widening the corridors and adding more lanes
We are building a religion.
A limited edition
We are now accepting callers for these pendant keychains
To resist it is useless,
It is useless to resist it
His cigerratte is burning but it never seems to ash
He is grooming his poodle
He is living comfort eagle
You can meet at his location but you'd better come with cash
Now his hat is on backwards. He can show you his tattoos
He is in the music buisness he is calling you "DUDE!"
Now today is tomorrow and tomorrow's today
And yesterday is weaving in and out
And the fluffy white lines that the airplane leaves behind
Are drifting right in front of the waning of the moon
He is handling the money. He's serving the food
He knows about your party. He is calling you "DUDE!"
Now, do you believe in the one big sign?
The double wide shine on the boot hills of your prime
Doesn't matter if you're skinny. Doesn't matter if you're fat.
You can dress up like a sultan in your onion-head hat
We are bulding a religion. We are making a brand
We're the only ones to turn to when your castles turn to sand
Take a bit of this apple, Mr. Corporate Events
Take a walk through the jungle of cardboard shedies and tents
Some people drink pepsi. Some people drink coke. (coke)
The wacky morning d.j. says democracy's a joke.
He says now, "Do you believe in the one big song?"
He's now accepting callers who would like to sing along
He says, "Do you believe in the one true edge?"
By fastening your saftey belts and stepping towards the ledge
He is handling the money. He is serving the food.
He is now accepting callers. He is calling me "DUDE!"
Do you believe in the one big sign?
The double wide shine on the boot hills of your prime.
There's no need to ask directions if you ever lose your mind
We're behind you. We're behind you.
And let us please remind you
We can send a car to find you
If you ever lose your way
We are bulding a religion...
We are bulding it bigger...
We are building............... a religion.......
A limited edition
We are now accepting callers for these beautiful pendant keychains
As such the only writers that matter are those who are contributing today. The only founders are those in the now.
Yeah, we don't have 'founders'. We have certain spags who we label 'old skool', some of which are dead. All of which probably read the copies of the PD that were printed on Jim Garrison's mimeograph machine before the JFK trail even happened.
Which is cool weird history, and the Discordia transmitted to us (in the buddhist sense, I guess) wouldn't be the same without each and every one of those spags. But unlike the static buddhist bureaucracy, we're not concerned with transmitting 'unaltered teachings' to the future. We're concerned with FUCKING WITH THE NOW.
"Fuck! If I knew this shit was going to work, I'd have picked Aphrodite!" - Kerry Thornely, aka the Bull Goose of Limbo
Actually, there is a really clear-cut way to become a discordian:
http://www.wikihow.com/Become-a-Member-of-the-Discordian-Society
It's the one true path™. :lulz:
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 14, 2011, 11:42:15 PM
The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson
Got a source for this quote?
QuoteThere we have RAW chiming in about it. From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.
Got a source for this point of view?
Besides the previous quote, I mean, which is why I asked where the quotes are from cause when RAW says "rival gangs of shamans", he's not necessarily exactly talking about traditional shamanism. Rather some neoshaman chaos magick hippie "if you look at it from
exactly this angle, it's JUST almost like shamans, you know [pass the bong]" point of view.
To draw the conclusion that therefore he thought "Discordianism is a form of Shamanism" is pretty far fetched, IMO. You may believe it, of course.
But if you ask me, he said it cause he thought it'd make a cool quote. Never for people to dissect and draw conclusions from. Especially since the quote is about the line between Real and Unreal, and not about shamans. He could have said "mages" or "popes" and mean the same thing.
BTW what does "rival gangs of shamans" even MEAN? In the context of traditional shamanism, WTF is a "gang of shamans"? And then rival gangs? So there's more than one? Did that EVER happen? I thought they'd prefer to sit in their animal suits being spiritual leaders in their tribes. No way they're going to form a GANG without having a tribe to look down upon.
If you want to know what "rival gangs of shamans" really means, it's probably more like depicted in
the Invisibles.
Before you go "HA! That's exactly what I meant!", I'd like to remind you that
the Invisibles is a work of fiction, a comic book, and you can't actually change reality by taking a dose of LSD and painting squiggles in your room.
He also said "Discordianism is like herding cats" (or maybe he didn't). According to your reasoning, if we're going to take all of this at face value, RAW believed Shamanism is a form of herding cats.
I do believe, however, that Shamanism is just like Taoism in a clown suit. I just skimmed Wikipedia on it, especially the clown suit part fits rather well.
You can't use out of context RAW quotes to pretend Discordianism is a form of Shamanism. If you want to argue, you can explain what Shamanism is (according to you) first, and what "form" it must take in order to be alike Discordianism.
I just realized, this is Wyldkat, comparing Discordianism and Shamanism:
Some guy, walking up to a Biker Gang and says "Hey guys, I was just reading your website, the advice section on the correct motorcycle repair and mechanics. All that technical stuff, it reminded me a lot of miniature train modelling. Is what you guys do anything like that?"
:lulz:
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 02:24:56 AM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.
Also interesting. I understood that Discordia was to each his own and think for yourself, but I'm surprised that people would group themselves in any group without researching it, if not first then soon after getting interested in it. My own prejudice showing I guess. I am big on researching things that interest me. Doesn't it make it hard when there are no necessarily common points of reference?
Speaking as someone who has only read the PD and would never touch any RAW, I've done plenty of research. It's called "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!" I don't need some old grizzled, dead LSD wizard to enlighten my views or perceptions of Discordia. The PD basically awakened me to something I alreay knew and felt. It's something that always existed within me even back when I was a Baptist. I just finally was able to put a name to it. So the only research I really had to do was within the confines of my BIP. My research was to discover my bars and to figure out where I wanted to go.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:06:53 PM
All this thread was about was a similarity I noticed between what I had learned over the years in my study of shamanism (only brought shamanism up because that's where I learned it) and a concept I had read here on PD. I did my research before posting, read the BIP and PD which seemed to confirm what I had previously noticed, so I posted hoping that someone who was more well versed in the subject from the Discordian end would be willing to do some compare contrast so that I could get a better handle on all of it.
Perhaps your "confirmation" is a result of you falling victim to the Law of Fives. You are filtering out that which would invalidate your theory that BIP = Shamanism.
QuoteAlso, to those who say the BIP wasn't intended to teach, any written or spoken word can teach even if that is not the intent of the author or speaker. Shedding light on a subject is a method of teaching a person about it.
Except you seemed to be using the word "teach" as in "to instruct". That we were telling the reader how to do something. We weren't. I think it is made fairly clear throughout the book that intent was more to be a cold splash of water to the face. The idea wasn't to say, "Hey, you're fucking up and this is how you should be doing it." It was more, "You do realize you are fucking up right? Pay attention and look at your options!"
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 09:11:05 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 14, 2011, 09:01:02 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2011, 08:59:30 PM
In the BiP you are the prisoner and the guard, and the walls and bars and everything else... the only person that can 'free' you is you.
I go with the thinking that there is no real escape, just an occasional escape of a defective idea.
Thus 'free' in quotes... myself, I tend to see the 'escape' as realizing that limitations aren't always prisons :)
The self-imposed limitations are. And that is where, IMO, the "jailbreak" meme comes into play. To break free from the self-imposed limits. But you can never escape the prison proper unless you find a way to transcend your humanity. But you're right in that this isn't a negative. In fact, it is a positive when you realize there is so much more real estate to explore.
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 15, 2011, 01:20:31 PM
Speaking as someone who has only read the PD and would never touch any RAW, I've done plenty of research. It's called "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!" I don't need some old grizzled, dead LSD wizard to enlighten my views or perceptions of Discordia. The PD basically awakened me to something I alreay knew and felt. It's something that always existed within me even back when I was a Baptist. I just finally was able to put a name to it. So the only research I really had to do was within the confines of my BIP. My research was to discover my bars and to figure out where I wanted to go.
If he ever DID say it, I'm guessing it's BECAUSE he was an old grizzled LSD wizard, and he might've been using it interchangably with "psychonaut", i.e., exploring consciousness. Which is what people like RAW did with drugs back in the old days before using them to get stupid came into vogue.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 14, 2011, 08:53:32 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:32:04 PM
I found it interesting to find the idea that we are all in our own separate prison (mental construct of the world, whatever a person wishes to call it) here. I honestly hadn't expected it since many people seem to be so reactive to other people's thoughts and opinions. That part goes directly counter the concept I learned.
Translation: I have viewed this through my grid and made it into something with shamanizm and teachers and stuff. I am looking for stuff you gais consider authoritative so I can do you like I do the tards at TCC. This might fit the bill, that's why I started this thread. Now Imma pull the WHY DO YOU CALL ME ON MY BULLSHIT WHEN EVERBUDDY JUST SEES THINGS AS A CONSTRUCT ANYWAYS? card. Hyuk, hyuk.
:lulz:
Fuck yes. Thread over.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 14, 2011, 11:42:15 PM
The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson
There we have RAW chiming in about it. From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.
(For WK's benefit and any others not familiar with the history of Discordianism he's one of the founders of Discordianism, along with Kerry Thornley and some others.
Are you mentally retarded? No, seriously. Speak for your own discordianism all the fuck you want, but my discordianism has fuck-all to do with RAW or Thornley. Thornley, FYI, founded the POEE, which was
one sect of discordianism.
Quote from: Telarus on May 15, 2011, 09:57:05 AM
Yeah, we don't have 'founders'. We have certain spags who we label 'old skool', some of which are dead. All of which probably read the copies of the PD that were printed on Jim Garrison's mimeograph machine before the JFK trail even happened.
We DO have titles, but nobody wants them. For example, I am The Last of the Ancient Wiseguys, and all that means HERE is that I am considered prime mugging material.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 15, 2011, 06:08:16 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 14, 2011, 11:42:15 PM
The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson
There we have RAW chiming in about it. From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.
(For WK's benefit and any others not familiar with the history of Discordianism he's one of the founders of Discordianism, along with Kerry Thornley and some others.
Are you mentally retarded? No, seriously. Speak for your own discordianism all the fuck you want, but my discordianism has fuck-all to do with RAW or Thornley. Thornley, FYI, founded the POEE, which was one sect of discordianism.
Horuv's been kissing arse on the TCC mob forever, dude. Give it up.
And Babylon?
Holy Quest Failed. This boot-licking was NOT what was intended.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 06:29:22 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:15:03 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 15, 2011, 06:09:07 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 15, 2011, 06:06:10 AM
You should have hung out at the old AAW MSN freechat room, Wyldkat. The "twelfth generation Strega" who didn't know what fucking country that path comes from and the white trash in Montana practicing 'authentic voodoo' would have left you rolling.
*twitches* yeouch... Really? Claimed 12th generation and didn't know the country of origin? Wow..........
I have horror stories, Wyldkat. SCARY ONES. People who actually research their bullshit before rolling in it are a rarity.
We had dozens of teenage girls coming in daily, freshly turned to the path of love and light. One of them broke down in tears on a webcam chat with another chatter because someone said the word 'fuck' and the 'bad karma' that created would wipe out entire litters of kittens.
I shit you not.
And that isn't even covering people who don't read simply because they want to take a concept and run with it on their own. No, no. This is just talking about the 'true believers'.
I'm sort of glad and disappointed that most of those never hit TCC long enough to post. I guess I've gotten spoiled by living in the geek commune and doing the whole read and think for yourself bit for so long with people who email me.
Are you fucking shitting me? That's EXACTLY what most of the TCC membership I've seen is. I've never been ignored so hard as when I have pointed out that the idiocy most of them spew over there bears no resemblance to and/or directly contradicts the writings of the people who founded the religions they're pretending to follow.
IMO that's why other Neopagans can't stand Discordians... our religion is the only cohesive, consistent Neopagan religion.
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 15, 2011, 10:57:36 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 14, 2011, 11:42:15 PM
The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson
Got a source for this quote?
QuoteThere we have RAW chiming in about it. From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.
Got a source for this point of view?
Besides the previous quote, I mean, which is why I asked where the quotes are from cause when RAW says "rival gangs of shamans", he's not necessarily exactly talking about traditional shamanism. Rather some neoshaman chaos magick hippie "if you look at it from exactly this angle, it's JUST almost like shamans, you know [pass the bong]" point of view.
To draw the conclusion that therefore he thought "Discordianism is a form of Shamanism" is pretty far fetched, IMO. You may believe it, of course.
But if you ask me, he said it cause he thought it'd make a cool quote. Never for people to dissect and draw conclusions from. Especially since the quote is about the line between Real and Unreal, and not about shamans. He could have said "mages" or "popes" and mean the same thing.
BTW what does "rival gangs of shamans" even MEAN? In the context of traditional shamanism, WTF is a "gang of shamans"? And then rival gangs? So there's more than one? Did that EVER happen? I thought they'd prefer to sit in their animal suits being spiritual leaders in their tribes. No way they're going to form a GANG without having a tribe to look down upon.
If you want to know what "rival gangs of shamans" really means, it's probably more like depicted in the Invisibles.
Before you go "HA! That's exactly what I meant!", I'd like to remind you that the Invisibles is a work of fiction, a comic book, and you can't actually change reality by taking a dose of LSD and painting squiggles in your room.
He also said "Discordianism is like herding cats" (or maybe he didn't). According to your reasoning, if we're going to take all of this at face value, RAW believed Shamanism is a form of herding cats.
I do believe, however, that Shamanism is just like Taoism in a clown suit. I just skimmed Wikipedia on it, especially the clown suit part fits rather well.
You can't use out of context RAW quotes to pretend Discordianism is a form of Shamanism. If you want to argue, you can explain what Shamanism is (according to you) first, and what "form" it must take in order to be alike Discordianism.
He's definitely not talking about traditional shamanism, neither is the OP.
I'd say that the invisibles is a pretty good depiction of rival gangs of shamans, so is the Illuminatus trilogy for that matter, both being fiction, and both being fairly Discordian.
I am having a terrible time sourcing the quote, but I have read the book it is from, I think it is Schroedinger's cat.
I really think those of you insisting we have no founders are being pretentious. They're founders because they did it first. Sure, we do things very differently than they did, and just because RAW or Thornley had some opinion that doesn't mean any other Discordian does or should. Thornley went batshit crazy after all and made a giant mess of his life. He still founded Discordianism. Like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson etc founded the US, or Crowley founded Thelema, or Gardner founded Wicca. The founders set out the initial ideas and coined the term. Discordianism is generally neophilic, so the founders are way less influential than they would be with something more neophobic, but they still founded the damn thing.
Roger, I have defended Wyldkat, I haven't kissed the ass of any other elder or member of TCC.
Payne is building the correct motorcycle.
Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.
The rival gangs quote is legit, I don't recall where its from right off, but I do recall that line from one of his books (or interviews... I dunno).
However, RAW never considered himself a 'founder', he was simply a Discordian that could make a buck on a good book, good joke or lecture circuit.
Quote from: Omar
I'm often called upon to settle points of doctrine such as:
"Please tell So-and-So that He or She doesn't understand Discordianism and I do."
In the first place, how do you know that So-and-So doesn't understand Discordianism, if you don't even know what sex he or she is? And what is all this shit about who does or doesn't understand Discordianism? Who the hell cares? If Discordianism was meant to be understood it would be like Zen Buddhism. The greatest of all Discordians, Malaclypse the Younger, doesn't understand anything whatsoever about the religion he co-founded.
Only I Omar Khayyam Ravenhurst, Bullgoose of the Discordian Orthodoxy, can really tell you what its all about. And why should I? After all, I don't even know what sex you are. Moreover, Discordians are warned against personal contact with one another. Any theology to which I make significant contributions is going to attract plenty of screwballs.
Then again, if you want to spend the rest of your life arguing with some nut who believes that flying saucers are only the first wave, to be followed soon by flying cups that's your business. Why should I care if you get involved with the Manson family, or become a brainwashed zombie in a cult run by a crackpot who calls himself the nine-legged Jesus?
Full Discordian Revelation Parts One and Two : http://youtu.be/nJHHDQ2i0kE
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.
Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.
Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.
:kingmeh:
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:05:25 PM
The rival gangs quote is legit, I don't recall where its from right off, but I do recall that line from one of his books (or interviews... I dunno).
However, RAW never considered himself a 'founder', he was simply a Discordian that could make a buck on a good book, good joke or lecture circuit.
Quote from: Omar
I'm often called upon to settle points of doctrine such as:
"Please tell So-and-So that He or She doesn't understand Discordianism and I do."
In the first place, how do you know that So-and-So doesn't understand Discordianism, if you don't even know what sex he or she is? And what is all this shit about who does or doesn't understand Discordianism? Who the hell cares? If Discordianism was meant to be understood it would be like Zen Buddhism. The greatest of all Discordians, Malaclypse the Younger, doesn't understand anything whatsoever about the religion he co-founded.
Only I Omar Khayyam Ravenhurst, Bullgoose of the Discordian Orthodoxy, can really tell you what its all about. And why should I? After all, I don't even know what sex you are. Moreover, Discordians are warned against personal contact with one another. Any theology to which I make significant contributions is going to attract plenty of screwballs.
Then again, if you want to spend the rest of your life arguing with some nut who believes that flying saucers are only the first wave, to be followed soon by flying cups that's your business. Why should I care if you get involved with the Manson family, or become a brainwashed zombie in a cult run by a crackpot who calls himself the nine-legged Jesus?
Full Discordian Revelation Parts One and Two : http://youtu.be/nJHHDQ2i0kE
Important word bolded.
Now, does that mean they should be listened to like some sort of wise oracle or Wiccan Elder? Fuck no. Think for yourself. They shouldn't even necessarially be respected, or paid any attention to.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:17:56 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.
Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.
:kingmeh:
Oh err... that may have come across wrong. Thornley had serious issues including his view that all living things should be sexual. The incident with his niece is certainly an example of badwrong by a guy with serious mental problems. The incident with the chair, is funny.
"I think Kerry was an omnivore sexually, he would have fucked a rhinoceros if he had the opportunity. (Maybe he did I don't know)." - Louise Lacy*
* from "The Prankster and the Conspiracy, by Adam Gorightly
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:05:25 PM
The rival gangs quote is legit, I don't recall where its from right off, but I do recall that line from one of his books (or interviews... I dunno).
However, RAW never considered himself a 'founder', he was simply a Discordian that could make a buck on a good book, good joke or lecture circuit.
Quote from: Omar
I'm often called upon to settle points of doctrine such as:
"Please tell So-and-So that He or She doesn't understand Discordianism and I do."
In the first place, how do you know that So-and-So doesn't understand Discordianism, if you don't even know what sex he or she is? And what is all this shit about who does or doesn't understand Discordianism? Who the hell cares? If Discordianism was meant to be understood it would be like Zen Buddhism. The greatest of all Discordians, Malaclypse the Younger, doesn't understand anything whatsoever about the religion he co-founded.
Only I Omar Khayyam Ravenhurst, Bullgoose of the Discordian Orthodoxy, can really tell you what its all about. And why should I? After all, I don't even know what sex you are. Moreover, Discordians are warned against personal contact with one another. Any theology to which I make significant contributions is going to attract plenty of screwballs.
Then again, if you want to spend the rest of your life arguing with some nut who believes that flying saucers are only the first wave, to be followed soon by flying cups that's your business. Why should I care if you get involved with the Manson family, or become a brainwashed zombie in a cult run by a crackpot who calls himself the nine-legged Jesus?
Full Discordian Revelation Parts One and Two : http://youtu.be/nJHHDQ2i0kE
Important words bolded.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:17:56 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.
Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.
:kingmeh:
Oh err... that may have come across wrong. Thornley had serious issues including his view that all living things should be sexual. The incident with his niece is certainly an example of badwrong by a guy with serious mental problems. The incident with the chair, is funny.
"I think Kerry was an omnivore sexually, he would have fucked a rhinoceros if he had the opportunity. (Maybe he did I don't know)." - Louise Lacy*
* from "The Prankster and the Conspiracy, by Adam Gorightly
I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume it was a miscommunication due to the lack of inflection in text.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 15, 2011, 07:52:32 PM
Roger, I have defended Wyldkat, I haven't kissed the ass of any other elder or member of TCC.
Uh huh.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 15, 2011, 07:52:32 PM
Roger, I have defended Wyldkat, I haven't kissed the ass of any other elder or member of TCC.
You've had a hardon for wk since forever. Don't fucking lie. You fucking sick fuck.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 15, 2011, 08:26:02 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:05:25 PM
The rival gangs quote is legit, I don't recall where its from right off, but I do recall that line from one of his books (or interviews... I dunno).
However, RAW never considered himself a 'founder', he was simply a Discordian that could make a buck on a good book, good joke or lecture circuit.
Quote from: Omar
I'm often called upon to settle points of doctrine such as:
"Please tell So-and-So that He or She doesn't understand Discordianism and I do."
In the first place, how do you know that So-and-So doesn't understand Discordianism, if you don't even know what sex he or she is? And what is all this shit about who does or doesn't understand Discordianism? Who the hell cares? If Discordianism was meant to be understood it would be like Zen Buddhism. The greatest of all Discordians, Malaclypse the Younger, doesn't understand anything whatsoever about the religion he co-founded.
Only I Omar Khayyam Ravenhurst, Bullgoose of the Discordian Orthodoxy, can really tell you what its all about. And why should I? After all, I don't even know what sex you are. Moreover, Discordians are warned against personal contact with one another. Any theology to which I make significant contributions is going to attract plenty of screwballs.
Then again, if you want to spend the rest of your life arguing with some nut who believes that flying saucers are only the first wave, to be followed soon by flying cups that's your business. Why should I care if you get involved with the Manson family, or become a brainwashed zombie in a cult run by a crackpot who calls himself the nine-legged Jesus?
Full Discordian Revelation Parts One and Two : http://youtu.be/nJHHDQ2i0kE
Important word bolded.
Now, does that mean they should be listened to like some sort of wise oracle or Wiccan Elder? Fuck no. Think for yourself. They shouldn't even necessarially be respected, or paid any attention to.
How the hell does that in any way indicate that Robert Anton Wilson is a co-founder of Discordianism? Kerry Thornley and Greg Hill wrote the Principia Discordia. RAW had nothing to do with it; he just riffed off some prank letters they wrote to Playboy when he was an editor there.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:32:44 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:17:56 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.
Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.
:kingmeh:
Oh err... that may have come across wrong. Thornley had serious issues including his view that all living things should be sexual. The incident with his niece is certainly an example of badwrong by a guy with serious mental problems. The incident with the chair, is funny.
"I think Kerry was an omnivore sexually, he would have fucked a rhinoceros if he had the opportunity. (Maybe he did I don't know)." - Louise Lacy*
* from "The Prankster and the Conspiracy, by Adam Gorightly
I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume it was a miscommunication due to the lack of inflection in text.
I'm not quite willing to grant him that much.
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 15, 2011, 01:27:01 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 14, 2011, 08:06:53 PM
All this thread was about was a similarity I noticed between what I had learned over the years in my study of shamanism (only brought shamanism up because that's where I learned it) and a concept I had read here on PD. I did my research before posting, read the BIP and PD which seemed to confirm what I had previously noticed, so I posted hoping that someone who was more well versed in the subject from the Discordian end would be willing to do some compare contrast so that I could get a better handle on all of it.
Perhaps your "confirmation" is a result of you falling victim to the Law of Fives. You are filtering out that which would invalidate your theory that BIP = Shamanism.
I am absolutely not trying to say that BIP = shamanism. What I did say was that one concept I saw on this site and then found echoed in the BIP is similar to one that I have learned in my study of shamamism. I'm trying to see how far this holds true and what differences there are. The differences and similarities between different paths/schools of thought interest me, always have.
QuoteQuoteAlso, to those who say the BIP wasn't intended to teach, any written or spoken word can teach even if that is not the intent of the author or speaker. Shedding light on a subject is a method of teaching a person about it.
Except you seemed to be using the word "teach" as in "to instruct". That we were telling the reader how to do something. We weren't. I think it is made fairly clear throughout the book that intent was more to be a cold splash of water to the face. The idea wasn't to say, "Hey, you're fucking up and this is how you should be doing it." It was more, "You do realize you are fucking up right? Pay attention and look at your options!"
I think you might be misinterpreting my use of the word "teach." That last section in quotations falls very much under my idea of what teaching can entail.
Ok, I'll wade trudge through here.
First off,
"The world's greatest fool may say the Sun is shining, but that doesn't make it dark out." - EY, Less Wrong.
WK, you have noticed that some aspect of your shamanism/neoshamanism beliefs seem to fit in with one aspect of the BIP (don't forget, there's the biological half as well as the psychologial). You're confused as to why we would trash shamanism, if they have a similar belief.
Well, the bible says this (Proverbs 1):
20 Out in the open wisdom calls aloud,
she raises her voice in the public square;
21 on top of the wall she cries out,
at the city gate she makes her speech:
22 "How long will you who are simple love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?
23 Repent at my rebuke!
Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
I will make known to you my teachings.
24 But since you refuse to listen when I call
and no one pays attention when I stretch out my hand,
25 since you disregard all my advice
and do not accept my rebuke,
26 I in turn will laugh when disaster strikes you;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you—
27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me,
29 since they hated knowledge.
Which certainly aligns with my understanding of Discordia. But does that mean I should not mock the Christians? Of course not. Because while there may be a common element to be found (and RWHN was right for calling out the Lo5 on some of that), the underlying belief systems are wildly disparate.
Shamanism, and the neoshamanism that followed, seems to be primarily concerned with, and revolves around, communication and access with some sort of hidden "Spirit World", and concocts elaborate rituals and sometimes ingests chemicals to reach it. Dress up the language all you want, but that's what the intent is. And my brand of Discordia rejects that wholeheartedly. My brand of Discordia believes in Fermions, Bosons and Gluons. My brand of Discordia believes that so-called "trancendent" mental states are self-reflecting and physical. There is no "Spirit World" to contact. The "Spirit World" is another bar in the BIP, not the BIP itself.
You might argue that you personally consider the "Spirit World" to be a metaphor. But that would mean you're not practicing Shamanism, you're engaged in psychological self-deception, intentionally deluding yourself. Which my Discordia also rejects. My Discordia seeks to remove layers of deceit to reveal underlying thought processes and patterns, not to add additional piles of bullshit onto an already unstable mental system. Because, as we have repeatedly found out, any time someone develops a metaphor, someone will always try to stretch and manipulate it to the breaking point, until it becomes useless and meaningless (often known as the "PD Principle"). So my understanding of the BIP includes the understanding that it is itself an imperfect model, whereas your offshoot neoshamanistic insight is considered a Truth.
But what do I know? I only coined the term.*
*Stole it from PKD and used it for my own defarious purposes, more like.
Incidentally, if you want a more poetic interpretation of Discordia/BIP, check out The Chao Te Ching (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Sacred_Chao_Te_Ching).
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 09:44:02 AM
All this thread was about was a similarity I noticed between what I had learned over the years in my study of shamanism
You still haven't said what and who you studied with.
How do you study shamanism? Seriously? I mean, besides reading crappy Carlos Castenada books?
Flood your brain with serotonin, and pretend everything you experience next is real, or at least has a deeper underlying meaning.
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 12:26:41 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:32:44 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:17:56 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.
Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.
:kingmeh:
Oh err... that may have come across wrong. Thornley had serious issues including his view that all living things should be sexual. The incident with his niece is certainly an example of badwrong by a guy with serious mental problems. The incident with the chair, is funny.
"I think Kerry was an omnivore sexually, he would have fucked a rhinoceros if he had the opportunity. (Maybe he did I don't know)." - Louise Lacy*
* from "The Prankster and the Conspiracy, by Adam Gorightly
I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume it was a miscommunication due to the lack of inflection in text.
I'm not quite willing to grant him that much.
I corrected the potential miscommunication as soon as I saw it. If thats not enough for you, Nigel, fuck off.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 02:48:53 PM
Flood your brain with serotonin, and pretend everything you experience next is real, or at least has a deeper underlying meaning.
Ah. ASTRAL PILLARZ.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 16, 2011, 02:51:11 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 12:26:41 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:32:44 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:17:56 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.
Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.
:kingmeh:
Oh err... that may have come across wrong. Thornley had serious issues including his view that all living things should be sexual. The incident with his niece is certainly an example of badwrong by a guy with serious mental problems. The incident with the chair, is funny.
"I think Kerry was an omnivore sexually, he would have fucked a rhinoceros if he had the opportunity. (Maybe he did I don't know)." - Louise Lacy*
* from "The Prankster and the Conspiracy, by Adam Gorightly
I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume it was a miscommunication due to the lack of inflection in text.
I'm not quite willing to grant him that much.
I corrected the potential miscommunication as soon as I saw it. If thats not enough for you, Nigel, fuck off.
No, you. :) Your comment was completely uncalled-for in or out of context, and you are a dick for making it either way. Assfuck.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 02:46:57 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 09:44:02 AM
All this thread was about was a similarity I noticed between what I had learned over the years in my study of shamanism
You still haven't said what and who you studied with.
How do you study shamanism? Seriously? I mean, besides reading crappy Carlos Castenada books?
I think you have your answer right here.
That, and going to the sauna and pretending it's a "sweatlodge", which is exactly why I have nothing but contempt for 99.9% of all self-proclaimed practitioners of "shamanism". Most especially the ones who claim to "walk the Red path", who are almost always total lying posers who know exactly jack shit, and when you ask them questions about it, they evade, lie, or whine about how mean you're being to them.
Indigeonous religions, by and large, are welcoming of overweight, sweaty westerners with way too expensive Barnes and Noble books on metaphysics and are totally willing to teach them their closely held and usually secret beliefs and rituals for no apparent reason.
"Shamanism" = "I READED A BOOK"
\
:winner:
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 04:59:05 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 02:46:57 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 09:44:02 AM
All this thread was about was a similarity I noticed between what I had learned over the years in my study of shamanism
You still haven't said what and who you studied with.
How do you study shamanism? Seriously? I mean, besides reading crappy Carlos Castenada books?
I think you have your answer right here.
That, and going to the sauna and pretending it's a "sweatlodge", which is exactly why I have nothing but contempt for 99.9% of all self-proclaimed practitioners of "shamanism". Most especially the ones who claim to "walk the Red path", who are almost always total lying posers who know exactly jack shit, and when you ask them questions about it, they evade, lie, or whine about how mean you're being to them.
WTF is "walk the Red path"?
And this is why I am casually contemptous of Pagans when I meet them IRL. They claim to have studied "ancient mysteries" and "sacred texts", but at most their "mysteries" are a couple of years younger than ours, and
they're not even funny. It's basically a "safe" rebellion against their parents, through religion.
Well, except for those who are "12th generation Strega", whatever the fuck THAT is.
And then people ask me, with a straight fucking face, why I hate people.
Quote from: Cain on May 16, 2011, 05:02:20 PM
Indigeonous religious, by and large, are welcoming of overweight, sweaty westerners with way too expensive Barnes and Noble books on metaphysics and are totally willing to teach them their closely held and usually secret beliefs and rituals for no apparent reason.
:lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 04:59:05 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 02:46:57 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 09:44:02 AM
All this thread was about was a similarity I noticed between what I had learned over the years in my study of shamanism
You still haven't said what and who you studied with.
How do you study shamanism? Seriously? I mean, besides reading crappy Carlos Castenada books?
I think you have your answer right here.
That, and going to the sauna and pretending it's a "sweatlodge", which is exactly why I have nothing but contempt for 99.9% of all self-proclaimed practitioners of "shamanism". Most especially the ones who claim to "walk the Red path", who are almost always total lying posers who know exactly jack shit, and when you ask them questions about it, they evade, lie, or whine about how mean you're being to them.
WTF is "walk the Red path"?
And this is why I am casually contemptous of Pagans when I meet them IRL. They claim to have studied "ancient mysteries" and "sacred texts", but at most their "mysteries" are a couple of years younger than ours, and they're not even funny. It's basically a "safe" rebellion against their parents, through religion.
Well, except for those who are "12th generation Strega", whatever the fuck THAT is.
And then people ask me, with a straight fucking face, why I hate people.
That's what wannabee indians call it when they pretend to practice indigenous American religions. Generally without knowing fuck-all about said religions other than the made-up bullshit in Castaneda's books, or some shit they read by Llewellyn Press.
Quote from: Cain on May 16, 2011, 05:02:20 PM
Indigeonous religious, by and large, are welcoming of overweight, sweaty westerners with way too expensive Barnes and Noble books on metaphysics and are totally willing to teach them their closely held and usually secret beliefs and rituals for no apparent reason.
Um, there's a reason. Cold, hard cash. The Navajo down here do a brisk trade in teaching useless hippies whatever "secrets" come into their cold and cunning heads. The hippies, of course, eat it right up and beg for more.
The hippies are pathetic, but not as pathetic as what some of them turn into (Grave robbers).
The Navajo, of course, are "Bob" approved, because it's morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money.
Or, better yet, some bullshit they heard from a guy who's 1/32nd Cherokee, charging $20 admission to a "sweat lodge" in his back yard.
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 05:04:48 PM
That's what wannabee indians call it when they pretend to practice indigenous American religions. Generally without knowing fuck-all about said religions other than the made-up bullshit in Castaneda's books, or some shit they read by Llewellyn Press.
Oh, THAT would make the Navajo happy.
"Hey, Injun! Yo, red man! You wanna teach me some of your tribal religion stuff?"
:lulz:
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 05:05:43 PM
Or, better yet, some bullshit they heard from a guy who's 1/32nd Cherokee, charging $20 admission to a "sweat lodge" in his back yard.
See my above post.
Also, we need more sweat lodge fatalities.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 05:05:08 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 16, 2011, 05:02:20 PM
Indigeonous religious, by and large, are welcoming of overweight, sweaty westerners with way too expensive Barnes and Noble books on metaphysics and are totally willing to teach them their closely held and usually secret beliefs and rituals for no apparent reason.
Um, there's a reason. Cold, hard cash. The Navajo down here do a brisk trade in teaching useless hippies whatever "secrets" come into their cold and cunning heads. The hippies, of course, eat it right up and beg for more.
The hippies are pathetic, but not as pathetic as what some of them turn into (Grave robbers).
The Navajo, of course, are "Bob" approved, because it's morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money.
The Navajo are masters of the disinformation trade. Their propensity for fucking with anthropologists is legendary. :lulz:
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 05:05:43 PM
Or, better yet, some bullshit they heard from a guy who's 1/32nd Cherokee, charging $20 admission to a "sweat lodge" in his back yard.
Yeah, I'm going to go with this reason. They
are bullshit artists, after all, but the real deal tend to protect their particulars as closely as the secret ingredient in KFC. Its like trade secrets.
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 05:07:12 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 05:05:08 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 16, 2011, 05:02:20 PM
Indigeonous religious, by and large, are welcoming of overweight, sweaty westerners with way too expensive Barnes and Noble books on metaphysics and are totally willing to teach them their closely held and usually secret beliefs and rituals for no apparent reason.
Um, there's a reason. Cold, hard cash. The Navajo down here do a brisk trade in teaching useless hippies whatever "secrets" come into their cold and cunning heads. The hippies, of course, eat it right up and beg for more.
The hippies are pathetic, but not as pathetic as what some of them turn into (Grave robbers).
The Navajo, of course, are "Bob" approved, because it's morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money.
The Navajo are masters of the disinformation trade. Their propensity for fucking with anthropologists is legendary. :lulz:
Yep. So fatass aging hippies from Alberta don't stand a CHANCE.
Shit, my husband is 1/32nd (or 1/16th, they're not QUITE sure) Cherokee, where's my line of suckers wanting to hand me cash for what I stole out of his super sekrit books?
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 04:55:03 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 16, 2011, 02:51:11 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 12:26:41 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:32:44 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:17:56 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.
Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.
:kingmeh:
Oh err... that may have come across wrong. Thornley had serious issues including his view that all living things should be sexual. The incident with his niece is certainly an example of badwrong by a guy with serious mental problems. The incident with the chair, is funny.
"I think Kerry was an omnivore sexually, he would have fucked a rhinoceros if he had the opportunity. (Maybe he did I don't know)." - Louise Lacy*
* from "The Prankster and the Conspiracy, by Adam Gorightly
I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume it was a miscommunication due to the lack of inflection in text.
I'm not quite willing to grant him that much.
I corrected the potential miscommunication as soon as I saw it. If thats not enough for you, Nigel, fuck off.
No, you. :) Your comment was completely uncalled-for in or out of context, and you are a dick for making it either way. Assfuck.
No, you, as your comment was also completely uncalled for.
(http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc322/fennario99/Capture.jpg)
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 05:06:53 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 05:05:43 PM
Or, better yet, some bullshit they heard from a guy who's 1/32nd Cherokee, charging $20 admission to a "sweat lodge" in his back yard.
See my above post.
Also, we need more sweat lodge fatalities.
This.
It especially amuses when women claim to practice the sweat ceremony. I'm like, oh good, you practice a religious rite by deliberately violating one of its basic tenets. Unless it's a women-only sweat and you're all on your periods, you stupid blasphemous cunt.
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 05:14:08 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 05:06:53 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 05:05:43 PM
Or, better yet, some bullshit they heard from a guy who's 1/32nd Cherokee, charging $20 admission to a "sweat lodge" in his back yard.
See my above post.
Also, we need more sweat lodge fatalities.
This.
It especially amuses when women claim to practice the sweat ceremony. I'm like, oh good, you practice a religious rite by deliberately violating one of its basic tenets. Unless it's a women-only sweat and you're all on your periods, you stupid blasphemous cunt.
:mittens:
Though since recently some pretentious spags died while in a sweat lodge, I'm all for them continuing.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 16, 2011, 05:10:35 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 04:55:03 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 16, 2011, 02:51:11 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 12:26:41 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:32:44 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:17:56 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.
Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.
:kingmeh:
Oh err... that may have come across wrong. Thornley had serious issues including his view that all living things should be sexual. The incident with his niece is certainly an example of badwrong by a guy with serious mental problems. The incident with the chair, is funny.
"I think Kerry was an omnivore sexually, he would have fucked a rhinoceros if he had the opportunity. (Maybe he did I don't know)." - Louise Lacy*
* from "The Prankster and the Conspiracy, by Adam Gorightly
I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume it was a miscommunication due to the lack of inflection in text.
I'm not quite willing to grant him that much.
I corrected the potential miscommunication as soon as I saw it. If thats not enough for you, Nigel, fuck off.
No, you. :) Your comment was completely uncalled-for in or out of context, and you are a dick for making it either way. Assfuck.
No, you, as your comment was also completely uncalled for.
Which, my comment about your hero having weird sexual proclivities?
I'm not the one who tried to defend a pedo by deflecting attention from the fact that he was caught engaging in questionable activity with a little girl, Ratatosk. THAT is what I find inappropriate about your comment, and why I refuse to give you the benefit of the doubt now. Don't try your fucking obfuscation games on me.
Dear Wyldkat:
If you put value
in subjective Bullshit,
lesser spags will treat it
like objective Truth.
Therefore the wise spags lead
by knowing their Prison
and staying pragmatic.
Like hitting someone with a Barstool
to prove that it actually exists,
call people on their Bullshit
so there will be no narcissism to exploit.
By understanding your Cell, you will understand others'.
(From the Sacred Chao te Ching)
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 16, 2011, 05:12:22 PM
(http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc322/fennario99/Capture.jpg)
:mittens:
This needs to be an emote.
:cherohonky: maybe?
Will do at home.
Cherohonky...yeah. :)
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 05:17:05 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 16, 2011, 05:10:35 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 04:55:03 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 16, 2011, 02:51:11 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 12:26:41 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:32:44 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:17:56 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.
Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.
:kingmeh:
Oh err... that may have come across wrong. Thornley had serious issues including his view that all living things should be sexual. The incident with his niece is certainly an example of badwrong by a guy with serious mental problems. The incident with the chair, is funny.
"I think Kerry was an omnivore sexually, he would have fucked a rhinoceros if he had the opportunity. (Maybe he did I don't know)." - Louise Lacy*
* from "The Prankster and the Conspiracy, by Adam Gorightly
I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume it was a miscommunication due to the lack of inflection in text.
I'm not quite willing to grant him that much.
I corrected the potential miscommunication as soon as I saw it. If thats not enough for you, Nigel, fuck off.
No, you. :) Your comment was completely uncalled-for in or out of context, and you are a dick for making it either way. Assfuck.
No, you, as your comment was also completely uncalled for.
Which, my comment about your hero having weird sexual proclivities?
I'm not the one who tried to defend a pedo by deflecting attention from the fact that he was caught engaging in questionable activity with a little girl, Ratatosk. THAT is what I find inappropriate about your comment, and why I refuse to give you the benefit of the doubt now. Don't try your fucking obfuscation games on me.
A) not my hero... I've posted several times that the dude has serious mental problems, including pedophilia.
B) The comment I found inappropriate was your response to my clarification.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 02:21:51 PM
Ok, I'll wade trudge through here.
First off,
"The world's greatest fool may say the Sun is shining, but that doesn't make it dark out." - EY, Less Wrong.
WK, you have noticed that some aspect of your shamanism/neoshamanism beliefs seem to fit in with one aspect of the BIP (don't forget, there's the biological half as well as the psychologial). You're confused as to why we would trash shamanism, if they have a similar belief.
Well, the bible says this (Proverbs 1):
20 Out in the open wisdom calls aloud,
she raises her voice in the public square;
21 on top of the wall she cries out,
at the city gate she makes her speech:
22 "How long will you who are simple love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?
23 Repent at my rebuke!
Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
I will make known to you my teachings.
24 But since you refuse to listen when I call
and no one pays attention when I stretch out my hand,
25 since you disregard all my advice
and do not accept my rebuke,
26 I in turn will laugh when disaster strikes you;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you—
27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me,
29 since they hated knowledge.
Which certainly aligns with my understanding of Discordia. But does that mean I should not mock the Christians? Of course not. Because while there may be a common element to be found (and RWHN was right for calling out the Lo5 on some of that), the underlying belief systems are wildly disparate.
Shamanism, and the neoshamanism that followed, seems to be primarily concerned with, and revolves around, communication and access with some sort of hidden "Spirit World", and concocts elaborate rituals and sometimes ingests chemicals to reach it. Dress up the language all you want, but that's what the intent is. And my brand of Discordia rejects that wholeheartedly. My brand of Discordia believes in Fermions, Bosons and Gluons. My brand of Discordia believes that so-called "trancendent" mental states are self-reflecting and physical. There is no "Spirit World" to contact. The "Spirit World" is another bar in the BIP, not the BIP itself.
You might argue that you personally consider the "Spirit World" to be a metaphor. But that would mean you're not practicing Shamanism, you're engaged in psychological self-deception, intentionally deluding yourself. Which my Discordia also rejects. My Discordia seeks to remove layers of deceit to reveal underlying thought processes and patterns, not to add additional piles of bullshit onto an already unstable mental system. Because, as we have repeatedly found out, any time someone develops a metaphor, someone will always try to stretch and manipulate it to the breaking point, until it becomes useless and meaningless (often known as the "PD Principle"). So my understanding of the BIP includes the understanding that it is itself an imperfect model, whereas your offshoot neoshamanistic insight is considered a Truth.
But what do I know? I only coined the term.*
*Stole it from PKD and used it for my own defarious purposes, more like.
I had a feeling that this was gonna get buried in the various side discussions, so I'm bumping it, because I liked writing it.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 06:43:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 02:21:51 PM
Ok, I'll wade trudge through here.
First off,
"The world's greatest fool may say the Sun is shining, but that doesn't make it dark out." - EY, Less Wrong.
WK, you have noticed that some aspect of your shamanism/neoshamanism beliefs seem to fit in with one aspect of the BIP (don't forget, there's the biological half as well as the psychologial). You're confused as to why we would trash shamanism, if they have a similar belief.
Well, the bible says this (Proverbs 1):
20 Out in the open wisdom calls aloud,
she raises her voice in the public square;
21 on top of the wall she cries out,
at the city gate she makes her speech:
22 "How long will you who are simple love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?
23 Repent at my rebuke!
Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
I will make known to you my teachings.
24 But since you refuse to listen when I call
and no one pays attention when I stretch out my hand,
25 since you disregard all my advice
and do not accept my rebuke,
26 I in turn will laugh when disaster strikes you;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you—
27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me,
29 since they hated knowledge.
Which certainly aligns with my understanding of Discordia. But does that mean I should not mock the Christians? Of course not. Because while there may be a common element to be found (and RWHN was right for calling out the Lo5 on some of that), the underlying belief systems are wildly disparate.
Shamanism, and the neoshamanism that followed, seems to be primarily concerned with, and revolves around, communication and access with some sort of hidden "Spirit World", and concocts elaborate rituals and sometimes ingests chemicals to reach it. Dress up the language all you want, but that's what the intent is. And my brand of Discordia rejects that wholeheartedly. My brand of Discordia believes in Fermions, Bosons and Gluons. My brand of Discordia believes that so-called "trancendent" mental states are self-reflecting and physical. There is no "Spirit World" to contact. The "Spirit World" is another bar in the BIP, not the BIP itself.
You might argue that you personally consider the "Spirit World" to be a metaphor. But that would mean you're not practicing Shamanism, you're engaged in psychological self-deception, intentionally deluding yourself. Which my Discordia also rejects. My Discordia seeks to remove layers of deceit to reveal underlying thought processes and patterns, not to add additional piles of bullshit onto an already unstable mental system. Because, as we have repeatedly found out, any time someone develops a metaphor, someone will always try to stretch and manipulate it to the breaking point, until it becomes useless and meaningless (often known as the "PD Principle"). So my understanding of the BIP includes the understanding that it is itself an imperfect model, whereas your offshoot neoshamanistic insight is considered a Truth.
But what do I know? I only coined the term.*
*Stole it from PKD and used it for my own defarious purposes, more like.
I had a feeling that this was gonna get buried in the various side discussions, so I'm bumping it, because I liked writing it.
It's a good point, that. Several of them, actually.
Some people are uncomfortable being jabbed with points, however.
I was just about to bump this, Alphapance. I read it at Pixies place, and now that I'm home I was going to reply to it. I see however you beat me to the punch with regards to bumping it. Oh well, you can take my word on it.
With regards to the post itself, it is one of the best illustrations of any one individuals Discordianism I've read in a long time. It's almost tangible to me, how your Discord is formed, and that's fucking awesome writing and communication rite thar.
It also gave me a momentary feeling of "Oh wait, I kinda actually want to write the Lexiad now despite the apparent lack of interest. Just so I can include the imagery you used in that post in it..." Which is no mean feat, considering how ambivalent I've been feeling in recent days about my epic poetry plan.
:mittens:
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 16, 2011, 06:42:36 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 05:17:05 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 16, 2011, 05:10:35 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 04:55:03 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 16, 2011, 02:51:11 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 12:26:41 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:32:44 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 15, 2011, 08:17:56 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 15, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 15, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.
Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.
:kingmeh:
Oh err... that may have come across wrong. Thornley had serious issues including his view that all living things should be sexual. The incident with his niece is certainly an example of badwrong by a guy with serious mental problems. The incident with the chair, is funny.
"I think Kerry was an omnivore sexually, he would have fucked a rhinoceros if he had the opportunity. (Maybe he did I don't know)." - Louise Lacy*
* from "The Prankster and the Conspiracy, by Adam Gorightly
I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume it was a miscommunication due to the lack of inflection in text.
I'm not quite willing to grant him that much.
I corrected the potential miscommunication as soon as I saw it. If thats not enough for you, Nigel, fuck off.
No, you. :) Your comment was completely uncalled-for in or out of context, and you are a dick for making it either way. Assfuck.
No, you, as your comment was also completely uncalled for.
Which, my comment about your hero having weird sexual proclivities?
I'm not the one who tried to defend a pedo by deflecting attention from the fact that he was caught engaging in questionable activity with a little girl, Ratatosk. THAT is what I find inappropriate about your comment, and why I refuse to give you the benefit of the doubt now. Don't try your fucking obfuscation games on me.
A) not my hero... I've posted several times that the dude has serious mental problems, including pedophilia.
B) The comment I found inappropriate was your response to my clarification.
What exactly was your point in making that response? It's completely obvious from my post that I was saying he had problems. Your comment seemed to be a joke making light of his sexual proclivities because of course fucking a chair isn't immoral. It was out of line and a distraction from the point I was making, which was that he was one messed-up dude.
Me saying I refuse to give you the same benefit of the doubt that Coyote did isn't "inappropriate". It's a statement of my position. If you think it's "inappropriate" for me to state that I am not giving you the benefit of the doubt on this one, you are fucked in the head.
I am not going to buy your backpedaling.
I'm not backpedaling. I made the comment to be funny about the chair comment, realized it could be taken the wrong way and corrected what I said. So, as I said before, fuck off, Nigel.
Yeah, I think this might be a mountain/molehill thing, but unfortunately now the mountainous molehill is blocking some nice scenery.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 02:21:51 PM
Ok, I'll wade trudge through here.
First off,
"The world's greatest fool may say the Sun is shining, but that doesn't make it dark out." - EY, Less Wrong.
WK, you have noticed that some aspect of your shamanism/neoshamanism beliefs seem to fit in with one aspect of the BIP (don't forget, there's the biological half as well as the psychologial). You're confused as to why we would trash shamanism, if they have a similar belief.
Well, the bible says this (Proverbs 1):
20 Out in the open wisdom calls aloud,
she raises her voice in the public square;
21 on top of the wall she cries out,
at the city gate she makes her speech:
22 "How long will you who are simple love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?
23 Repent at my rebuke!
Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
I will make known to you my teachings.
24 But since you refuse to listen when I call
and no one pays attention when I stretch out my hand,
25 since you disregard all my advice
and do not accept my rebuke,
26 I in turn will laugh when disaster strikes you;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you—
27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me,
29 since they hated knowledge.
Which certainly aligns with my understanding of Discordia. But does that mean I should not mock the Christians? Of course not. Because while there may be a common element to be found (and RWHN was right for calling out the Lo5 on some of that), the underlying belief systems are wildly disparate.
Shamanism, and the neoshamanism that followed, seems to be primarily concerned with, and revolves around, communication and access with some sort of hidden "Spirit World", and concocts elaborate rituals and sometimes ingests chemicals to reach it. Dress up the language all you want, but that's what the intent is. And my brand of Discordia rejects that wholeheartedly. My brand of Discordia believes in Fermions, Bosons and Gluons. My brand of Discordia believes that so-called "trancendent" mental states are self-reflecting and physical. There is no "Spirit World" to contact. The "Spirit World" is another bar in the BIP, not the BIP itself.
You might argue that you personally consider the "Spirit World" to be a metaphor. But that would mean you're not practicing Shamanism, you're engaged in psychological self-deception, intentionally deluding yourself. Which my Discordia also rejects. My Discordia seeks to remove layers of deceit to reveal underlying thought processes and patterns, not to add additional piles of bullshit onto an already unstable mental system. Because, as we have repeatedly found out, any time someone develops a metaphor, someone will always try to stretch and manipulate it to the breaking point, until it becomes useless and meaningless (often known as the "PD Principle"). So my understanding of the BIP includes the understanding that it is itself an imperfect model, whereas your offshoot neoshamanistic insight is considered a Truth.
But what do I know? I only coined the term.*
*Stole it from PKD and used it for my own defarious purposes, more like.
But shamanism WWORKS, dude!
/
:hippie:
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 16, 2011, 07:23:51 PM
But shamanism WWORKS, dude!
/
:hippie:
For a given value of "works," I suppose... but then, many things do.
By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?
That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.
You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.
Quote from: Payne on May 16, 2011, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?
That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.
You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.
Smart man. The little fuckers bite.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?
It is a purpose without expression or speaking, since "farious (http://wordinfo.info/unit/3613/ip:1/il:F)" means, well, click the link, and the de- prefix....
Quote from: Luna on May 16, 2011, 07:34:02 PM
Quote from: Payne on May 16, 2011, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?
That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.
You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.
Smart man. The little fuckers bite.
But the Lemon-Lime ones are delicious.
Quote from: Cain on May 16, 2011, 07:34:04 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?
It is a purpose without expression or speaking, since "farious (http://wordinfo.info/unit/3613/ip:1/il:F)" means, well, click the link, and the de- prefix....
Oops. I accidentally the Zen all over. Watch your step.
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 16, 2011, 07:38:48 PM
Quote from: Luna on May 16, 2011, 07:34:02 PM
Quote from: Payne on May 16, 2011, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?
That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.
You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.
Smart man. The little fuckers bite.
But the Lemon-Lime ones are delicious.
This is true. :lulz:
Quote from: Payne on May 16, 2011, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?
That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.
You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.
Those fuckers ever come around here, and I'll stuff them in a gunny sack and beat 'em against the wall.
Horrible little shits.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 07:43:57 PM
Quote from: Payne on May 16, 2011, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?
That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.
You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.
Those fuckers ever come around here, and I'll stuff them in a gunny sack and beat 'em against the wall.
Horrible little shits.
FAERIE JELLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 16, 2011, 07:44:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 07:43:57 PM
Quote from: Payne on May 16, 2011, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?
That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.
You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.
Those fuckers ever come around here, and I'll stuff them in a gunny sack and beat 'em against the wall.
Horrible little shits.
FAERIE JELLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good on toast, once you pick out the sparkly bits.
Quote from: Luna on May 16, 2011, 07:47:07 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 16, 2011, 07:44:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 07:43:57 PM
Quote from: Payne on May 16, 2011, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?
That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.
You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.
Those fuckers ever come around here, and I'll stuff them in a gunny sack and beat 'em against the wall.
Horrible little shits.
FAERIE JELLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good on toast, once you pick out the sparkly bits.
Designing my next ren-faire costume. :lulz:
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 06:43:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 02:21:51 PM
Ok, I'll wade trudge through here.
First off,
"The world's greatest fool may say the Sun is shining, but that doesn't make it dark out." - EY, Less Wrong.
WK, you have noticed that some aspect of your shamanism/neoshamanism beliefs seem to fit in with one aspect of the BIP (don't forget, there's the biological half as well as the psychologial). You're confused as to why we would trash shamanism, if they have a similar belief.
Well, the bible says this (Proverbs 1):
20 Out in the open wisdom calls aloud,
she raises her voice in the public square;
21 on top of the wall she cries out,
at the city gate she makes her speech:
22 "How long will you who are simple love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?
23 Repent at my rebuke!
Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
I will make known to you my teachings.
24 But since you refuse to listen when I call
and no one pays attention when I stretch out my hand,
25 since you disregard all my advice
and do not accept my rebuke,
26 I in turn will laugh when disaster strikes you;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you—
27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me,
29 since they hated knowledge.
Which certainly aligns with my understanding of Discordia. But does that mean I should not mock the Christians? Of course not. Because while there may be a common element to be found (and RWHN was right for calling out the Lo5 on some of that), the underlying belief systems are wildly disparate.
Shamanism, and the neoshamanism that followed, seems to be primarily concerned with, and revolves around, communication and access with some sort of hidden "Spirit World", and concocts elaborate rituals and sometimes ingests chemicals to reach it. Dress up the language all you want, but that's what the intent is. And my brand of Discordia rejects that wholeheartedly. My brand of Discordia believes in Fermions, Bosons and Gluons. My brand of Discordia believes that so-called "trancendent" mental states are self-reflecting and physical. There is no "Spirit World" to contact. The "Spirit World" is another bar in the BIP, not the BIP itself.
You might argue that you personally consider the "Spirit World" to be a metaphor. But that would mean you're not practicing Shamanism, you're engaged in psychological self-deception, intentionally deluding yourself. Which my Discordia also rejects. My Discordia seeks to remove layers of deceit to reveal underlying thought processes and patterns, not to add additional piles of bullshit onto an already unstable mental system. Because, as we have repeatedly found out, any time someone develops a metaphor, someone will always try to stretch and manipulate it to the breaking point, until it becomes useless and meaningless (often known as the "PD Principle"). So my understanding of the BIP includes the understanding that it is itself an imperfect model, whereas your offshoot neoshamanistic insight is considered a Truth.
But what do I know? I only coined the term.*
*Stole it from PKD and used it for my own defarious purposes, more like.
I had a feeling that this was gonna get buried in the various side discussions, so I'm bumping it, because I liked writing it.
Thank you very much. I really enjoyed this post.
I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor. I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs AND I am quite aware that my beliefs are a bar (or bars) in my prison/construct. My understanding of what I practice is that it is an imperfect model itself and not Truth, although it may be Truth for me at times, that is definitely not always the case.
For people who are curious about how I got to the point I'm at: I started out Catholic, learned about Wicca before internet access when all I had were books and no local people and read literally everything I could find about Wicca and paganism. Then I met someone who practiced shamanism and became interested in it. I read, once again, literally everything I could find access to on the subject (although I don't think I actually read any Casteneda somehow, I might have read one book...?). I took Comparative Religion and Philosophy courses, which helped add to my path. I also talked to many people over the years who walk the path with different training backgrounds. I do not and have not attempted to follow any specifically Native American tribal practices because I have not been trained in them and that would be disrespectful. I have studied shamanism from around the world. My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced and I've tried to get more information on that particular branch, but it is hard to come by. Beyond that, a lot of practice and trail and error on my part.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 16, 2011, 07:47:51 PM
Quote from: Luna on May 16, 2011, 07:47:07 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 16, 2011, 07:44:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 07:43:57 PM
Quote from: Payne on May 16, 2011, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?
That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.
You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.
Those fuckers ever come around here, and I'll stuff them in a gunny sack and beat 'em against the wall.
Horrible little shits.
FAERIE JELLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good on toast, once you pick out the sparkly bits.
Designing my next ren-faire costume. :lulz:
Send pics.
That's something I may have to do... Haven't been to the local ren faire in YEARS. May have to go this fall.
(http://www.artistsuk.co.uk/acatalog/mini-First_Faery_Froud.JPG)
Then there will be smushed faeries everywhere.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor.
That's because your brain is wired wrong.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor. I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs
In case you were wondering, this is why most of us mock you.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:52:11 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor. I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs
In case you were wondering, this is why most of us mock you.
Guilty as charged.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:52:11 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor. I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs
In case you were wondering, this is why most of us mock you.
Shit yeah. Starving people all over the world, and she has 15 years of leisure time to indulge in make-believe as an adult.
How American™ is that?
Quote from: Luna on May 16, 2011, 07:49:17 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 16, 2011, 07:47:51 PM
Quote from: Luna on May 16, 2011, 07:47:07 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 16, 2011, 07:44:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 07:43:57 PM
Quote from: Payne on May 16, 2011, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?
That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.
You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.
Those fuckers ever come around here, and I'll stuff them in a gunny sack and beat 'em against the wall.
Horrible little shits.
FAERIE JELLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good on toast, once you pick out the sparkly bits.
Designing my next ren-faire costume. :lulz:
Send pics.
That's something I may have to do... Haven't been to the local ren faire in YEARS. May have to go this fall.
Too bad I lost access to the seamstress I thought was I my friend.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:52:11 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor. I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs
In case you were wondering, this is why most of us mock you.
You mean the Spirit World isn't real?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 07:53:43 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:52:11 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor. I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs
In case you were wondering, this is why most of us mock you.
Shit yeah. Starving people all over the world, and she has 15 years of leisure time to indulge in make-believe as an adult.
How American™ is that?
About as American™ as it gets.
At least my make-believe I KNOW is make-believe... and I at least do it with good folks who are (in some cases) closer than family.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
...
For people who are curious about how I got to the point I'm at: I started out Catholic, learned about Wicca before internet access when all I had were books and no local people and read literally everything I could find about Wicca and paganism. Then I met someone who practiced shamanism and became interested in it. I read, once again, literally everything I could find access to on the subject (although I don't think I actually read any Casteneda somehow, I might have read one book...?). I took Comparative Religion and Philosophy courses, which helped add to my path. I also talked to many people over the years who walk the path with different training backgrounds. I do not and have not attempted to follow any specifically Native American tribal practices because I have not been trained in them and that would be disrespectful. I have studied shamanism from around the world. My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced and I've tried to get more information on that particular branch, but it is hard to come by. Beyond that, a lot of practice and trail and error on my part.
What exactly does "trial and error" mean in this context?
How do you tell the difference between success and failure?
Correlation equals causation. Of course.
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on May 16, 2011, 08:02:02 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
...
For people who are curious about how I got to the point I'm at: I started out Catholic, learned about Wicca before internet access when all I had were books and no local people and read literally everything I could find about Wicca and paganism. Then I met someone who practiced shamanism and became interested in it. I read, once again, literally everything I could find access to on the subject (although I don't think I actually read any Casteneda somehow, I might have read one book...?). I took Comparative Religion and Philosophy courses, which helped add to my path. I also talked to many people over the years who walk the path with different training backgrounds. I do not and have not attempted to follow any specifically Native American tribal practices because I have not been trained in them and that would be disrespectful. I have studied shamanism from around the world. My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced and I've tried to get more information on that particular branch, but it is hard to come by. Beyond that, a lot of practice and trail and error on my part.
What exactly does "trial and error" mean in this context?
How do you tell the difference between success and failure?
Read this:
http://www.amazon.com/House-Stairs-William-Sleator/dp/0140345809/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305572558&sr=1-1
Pretty clear illustration in it on how people determine the difference between success and failure.
Quote from: Luna on May 16, 2011, 08:03:58 PM
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on May 16, 2011, 08:02:02 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
...
For people who are curious about how I got to the point I'm at: I started out Catholic, learned about Wicca before internet access when all I had were books and no local people and read literally everything I could find about Wicca and paganism. Then I met someone who practiced shamanism and became interested in it. I read, once again, literally everything I could find access to on the subject (although I don't think I actually read any Casteneda somehow, I might have read one book...?). I took Comparative Religion and Philosophy courses, which helped add to my path. I also talked to many people over the years who walk the path with different training backgrounds. I do not and have not attempted to follow any specifically Native American tribal practices because I have not been trained in them and that would be disrespectful. I have studied shamanism from around the world. My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced and I've tried to get more information on that particular branch, but it is hard to come by. Beyond that, a lot of practice and trail and error on my part.
What exactly does "trial and error" mean in this context?
How do you tell the difference between success and failure?
Read this:
http://www.amazon.com/House-Stairs-William-Sleator/dp/0140345809/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305572558&sr=1-1
Pretty clear illustration in it on how people determine the difference between success and failure.
:lulz:
I should read that book again.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 16, 2011, 08:06:33 PM
Quote from: Luna on May 16, 2011, 08:03:58 PM
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on May 16, 2011, 08:02:02 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
...
For people who are curious about how I got to the point I'm at: I started out Catholic, learned about Wicca before internet access when all I had were books and no local people and read literally everything I could find about Wicca and paganism. Then I met someone who practiced shamanism and became interested in it. I read, once again, literally everything I could find access to on the subject (although I don't think I actually read any Casteneda somehow, I might have read one book...?). I took Comparative Religion and Philosophy courses, which helped add to my path. I also talked to many people over the years who walk the path with different training backgrounds. I do not and have not attempted to follow any specifically Native American tribal practices because I have not been trained in them and that would be disrespectful. I have studied shamanism from around the world. My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced and I've tried to get more information on that particular branch, but it is hard to come by. Beyond that, a lot of practice and trail and error on my part.
What exactly does "trial and error" mean in this context?
How do you tell the difference between success and failure?
Read this:
http://www.amazon.com/House-Stairs-William-Sleator/dp/0140345809/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305572558&sr=1-1
Pretty clear illustration in it on how people determine the difference between success and failure.
:lulz:
I should read that book again.
I need to track down a copy. The fact that I read this YEARS ago and it's stuck with me this long suggests it's worth reading again.
Quote from: Luna on May 16, 2011, 08:12:20 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 16, 2011, 08:06:33 PM
Quote from: Luna on May 16, 2011, 08:03:58 PM
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on May 16, 2011, 08:02:02 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
...
For people who are curious about how I got to the point I'm at: I started out Catholic, learned about Wicca before internet access when all I had were books and no local people and read literally everything I could find about Wicca and paganism. Then I met someone who practiced shamanism and became interested in it. I read, once again, literally everything I could find access to on the subject (although I don't think I actually read any Casteneda somehow, I might have read one book...?). I took Comparative Religion and Philosophy courses, which helped add to my path. I also talked to many people over the years who walk the path with different training backgrounds. I do not and have not attempted to follow any specifically Native American tribal practices because I have not been trained in them and that would be disrespectful. I have studied shamanism from around the world. My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced and I've tried to get more information on that particular branch, but it is hard to come by. Beyond that, a lot of practice and trail and error on my part.
What exactly does "trial and error" mean in this context?
How do you tell the difference between success and failure?
Read this:
http://www.amazon.com/House-Stairs-William-Sleator/dp/0140345809/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305572558&sr=1-1
Pretty clear illustration in it on how people determine the difference between success and failure.
:lulz:
I should read that book again.
I need to track down a copy. The fact that I read this YEARS ago and it's stuck with me this long suggests it's worth reading again.
I think I was in middle school when I read this.
You know, I've never heard of this book. The blurb on Amazon makes it sound very interesting.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 08:15:28 PM
You know, I've never heard of this book. The blurb on Amazon makes it sound very interesting.
It was in the school library when I was a kid. Like I said, it's stuck in my head this long. Not all the details, but...
I imagine it's a little dated, at this point, but worth a read.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 08:15:28 PM
You know, I've never heard of this book. The blurb on Amazon makes it sound very interesting.
It's worth a read. From what I remember it's filled with deliberately inflicted confirmation bias.
Oh wow, I completely forgot about that book! It was a good read.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 07:50:50 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor.
That's because your brain is wired wrong.
*laughing* Since I use that phrase on a daily basis, there is no way I can disagree with you!
Quote from: Cain on May 16, 2011, 07:52:57 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:52:11 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor. I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs
In case you were wondering, this is why most of us mock you.
Guilty as charged.
I knew that. Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people. I didn't expect respect for my path (or many things for that matter) here, but that doesn't stop me from being curious about people's reasoning for the disrespect.
Although I doubt anyone is interested, there is a good book about shamanism and science out there that I can look up if anyone is curious.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 07:50:50 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor.
That's because your brain is wired wrong.
*laughing* Since I use that phrase on a daily basis, there is no way I can disagree with you!
Quote from: Cain on May 16, 2011, 07:52:57 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 07:52:11 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor. I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs
In case you were wondering, this is why most of us mock you.
Guilty as charged.
I knew that. Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people. I didn't expect respect for my path (or many things for that matter) here, but that doesn't stop me from being curious about people's reasoning for the disrespect.
Although I doubt anyone is interested, there is a good book about shamanism and science out there that I can look up if anyone is curious.
If your spiritual path cannot interact in a meaningful way with reality you need a barstool inflicted on your skull.
QuoteSpiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.
Yes. There is a fairly obvious reason for that, too.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
I knew that. Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.
That's because reality isn't subjective.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
Although I doubt anyone is interested, there is a good book about shamanism and science out there that I can look up if anyone is curious.
Oh, this I GOTTA see.
So... you already know why most of us mock shamanism, and yet you wanted to know why we mocked shamanism?
That's incredibly stupid. Why don't you try asking a question you don't know the answer to?
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 08:31:38 PM
So... you already know why most of us mock shamanism, and yet you wanted to know why we mocked shamanism?
That's incredibly stupid. Why don't you try asking a question you don't know the answer to?
Because
QuoteSpiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality"
Quote from: Cain on May 16, 2011, 08:33:12 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 08:31:38 PM
So... you already know why most of us mock shamanism, and yet you wanted to know why we mocked shamanism?
That's incredibly stupid. Why don't you try asking a question you don't know the answer to?
Because
QuoteSpiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality"
:lulz:
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 08:31:38 PM
So... you already know why most of us mock shamanism, and yet you wanted to know why we mocked shamanism?
That's incredibly stupid. Why don't you try asking a question you don't know the answer to?
She's mentioned being into masochism, and some of those types get off on being humiliated, so perhaps she's intentionally inviting the mockery because it makes her horny.
Quote from: Aloe on May 16, 2011, 08:43:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 08:31:38 PM
So... you already know why most of us mock shamanism, and yet you wanted to know why we mocked shamanism?
That's incredibly stupid. Why don't you try asking a question you don't know the answer to?
She's mentioned being into masochism, and some of those types get off on being humiliated, so perhaps she's intentionally inviting the mockery because it makes her horny.
Her abject humiliation sure makes ME horny. :fap:
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 16, 2011, 09:19:13 PM
Quote from: Aloe on May 16, 2011, 08:43:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 08:31:38 PM
So... you already know why most of us mock shamanism, and yet you wanted to know why we mocked shamanism?
That's incredibly stupid. Why don't you try asking a question you don't know the answer to?
She's mentioned being into masochism, and some of those types get off on being humiliated, so perhaps she's intentionally inviting the mockery because it makes her horny.
Her abject humiliation sure makes ME horny. :fap:
The wind blowing makes you horny. :lulz:
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 16, 2011, 09:28:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 16, 2011, 09:19:13 PM
Quote from: Aloe on May 16, 2011, 08:43:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 08:31:38 PM
So... you already know why most of us mock shamanism, and yet you wanted to know why we mocked shamanism?
That's incredibly stupid. Why don't you try asking a question you don't know the answer to?
She's mentioned being into masochism, and some of those types get off on being humiliated, so perhaps she's intentionally inviting the mockery because it makes her horny.
Her abject humiliation sure makes ME horny. :fap:
The wind blowing makes you horny. :lulz:
:argh!: You stole my post Charley!
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 16, 2011, 09:28:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 16, 2011, 09:19:13 PM
Quote from: Aloe on May 16, 2011, 08:43:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 08:31:38 PM
So... you already know why most of us mock shamanism, and yet you wanted to know why we mocked shamanism?
That's incredibly stupid. Why don't you try asking a question you don't know the answer to?
She's mentioned being into masochism, and some of those types get off on being humiliated, so perhaps she's intentionally inviting the mockery because it makes her horny.
Her abject humiliation sure makes ME horny. :fap:
The wind blowing makes you horny. :lulz:
:lulz:
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 16, 2011, 09:28:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 16, 2011, 09:19:13 PM
Quote from: Aloe on May 16, 2011, 08:43:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 16, 2011, 08:31:38 PM
So... you already know why most of us mock shamanism, and yet you wanted to know why we mocked shamanism?
That's incredibly stupid. Why don't you try asking a question you don't know the answer to?
She's mentioned being into masochism, and some of those types get off on being humiliated, so perhaps she's intentionally inviting the mockery because it makes her horny.
Her abject humiliation sure makes ME horny. :fap:
The wind blowing makes you horny. :lulz:
Well, duh. :lmnuendo:
:lulz:
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 16, 2011, 07:19:42 PM
I'm not backpedaling. I made the comment to be funny about the chair comment, realized it could be taken the wrong way and corrected what I said. So, as I said before, fuck off, Nigel.
Your hostility is duly noted, and filed in the same place where I put the benefit of the doubt. :)
Quote from: Nigel on May 16, 2011, 10:54:30 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 16, 2011, 07:19:42 PM
I'm not backpedaling. I made the comment to be funny about the chair comment, realized it could be taken the wrong way and corrected what I said. So, as I said before, fuck off, Nigel.
Your hostility is duly noted, and filed in the same place where I put the benefit of the doubt. :)
As you wish, Nigel.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PMthere is a good book about shamanism
Unless it's in the "occult fiction" section, next to the Twilight series, I'm'a have to call you a liar.
I wonder if Wyldkat would consider herself to be an URBAN SHAMAN.
:lulz:
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 16, 2011, 11:53:46 PM
I wonder if Wyldkat would consider herself to be an SUB URBAN SHAMAN.
:lulz:
:lulz:
Everytime I read her posts about Shamanblahblahblah I think about World of Warcraft. Is the only Shaman that makes any sense.
Also :lulz: Sub Urban Shaman
Quote from: *GrumpButt* on May 17, 2011, 12:19:37 AM
Everytime I read her posts about Shamanblahblahblah I think about World of Warcraft. Is the only Shaman that makes any sense.
Also :lulz: Sub Urban Shaman
Wait You mean she isn't? oh man, I've been ridiculing her playing a ridiculous video game! Man is my face red.
Also, *Grump Butt*: NERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRD! :wink:
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 17, 2011, 12:21:55 AM
Quote from: *GrumpButt* on May 17, 2011, 12:19:37 AM
Everytime I read her posts about Shamanblahblahblah I think about World of Warcraft. Is the only Shaman that makes any sense.
Also :lulz: Sub Urban Shaman
Wait You mean she isn't? oh man, I've been ridiculing her playing a ridiculous video game! Man is my face red.
Also, *Grump Butt*: NERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRD! :wink:
Really though Shammies have Rez, Ancestral Spirit, totemz. All kinds of Spiritual Otherworld kinda shit.
I can understand where a few ppl would get WoW and Rlly For RLLZ Shamans mixd up.
And hells yes Grump is a nerd. AND YOU KNOW YOU LOVE IT BABY!
Quote from: *GrumpButt* on May 17, 2011, 12:26:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 17, 2011, 12:21:55 AM
Quote from: *GrumpButt* on May 17, 2011, 12:19:37 AM
Everytime I read her posts about Shamanblahblahblah I think about World of Warcraft. Is the only Shaman that makes any sense.
Also :lulz: Sub Urban Shaman
Wait You mean she isn't? oh man, I've been ridiculing her playing a ridiculous video game! Man is my face red.
Also, *Grump Butt*: NERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRD! :wink:
Really though Shammies have Rez, Ancestral Spirit, totemz. All kinds of Spiritual Otherworld kinda shit.
I can understand where a few ppl would get WoW and Rlly For RLLZ Shamans mixd up.
And hells yes Grump is a nerd. AND YOU KNOW YOU LOVE IT BABY!
Duh. :fap:
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 17, 2011, 12:28:42 AM
Quote from: *GrumpButt* on May 17, 2011, 12:26:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 17, 2011, 12:21:55 AM
Quote from: *GrumpButt* on May 17, 2011, 12:19:37 AM
Everytime I read her posts about Shamanblahblahblah I think about World of Warcraft. Is the only Shaman that makes any sense.
Also :lulz: Sub Urban Shaman
Wait You mean she isn't? oh man, I've been ridiculing her playing a ridiculous video game! Man is my face red.
Also, *Grump Butt*: NERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRD! :wink:
Really though Shammies have Rez, Ancestral Spirit, totemz. All kinds of Spiritual Otherworld kinda shit.
I can understand where a few ppl would get WoW and Rlly For RLLZ Shamans mixd up.
And hells yes Grump is a nerd. AND YOU KNOW YOU LOVE IT BABY!
Duh. :fap:
/shamelessflirting (you know you love eet)
:fap: :fap: :fap:
Quote from: *GrumpButt* on May 17, 2011, 12:26:40 AM
I can understand where a few ppl would get WoW and Rlly For RLLZ Shamans mixd up.
And why not? They're pretty much the same thing, in the end.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 17, 2011, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: *GrumpButt* on May 17, 2011, 12:26:40 AM
I can understand where a few ppl would get WoW and Rlly For RLLZ Shamans mixd up.
And why not? They're pretty much the same thing, in the end.
Totally agree. :lulz:
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 17, 2011, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: *GrumpButt* on May 17, 2011, 12:26:40 AM
I can understand where a few ppl would get WoW and Rlly For RLLZ Shamans mixd up.
And why not? They're pretty much the same thing, in the end.
Yup :lulz:
Quote from: *GrumpButt* on May 17, 2011, 12:19:37 AM
Everytime I read her posts about Shamanblahblahblah I think about World of Warcraft. Is the only Shaman that makes any sense.
Also :lulz: Sub Urban Shaman
This put me in mind of Shamalamadingdong. You know, that director guy. He did "The Devil" and "The Sixth Sign" and that movie where people wore pig masks and red was important for some reason.
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 17, 2011, 01:28:35 AM
Quote from: *GrumpButt* on May 17, 2011, 12:19:37 AM
Everytime I read her posts about Shamanblahblahblah I think about World of Warcraft. Is the only Shaman that makes any sense.
Also :lulz: Sub Urban Shaman
This put me in mind of Shamalamadingdong. You know, that director guy. He did "The Devil" and "The Sixth Sign" and that movie where people wore pig masks and red was important for some reason.
Oh gawd I hate his movies.....
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 16, 2011, 07:21:58 PM
Yeah, I think this might be a mountain/molehill thing, but unfortunately now the mountainous molehill is blocking some nice scenery.
Would any thread be complete without a fight that looks pointless to the outside observers? Without it the beauty (like LMNO's post) couldn't shine out like a gem in a dunghill.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 17, 2011, 04:05:49 AM
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 16, 2011, 07:21:58 PM
Yeah, I think this might be a mountain/molehill thing, but unfortunately now the mountainous molehill is blocking some nice scenery.
Would any thread be complete without a fight that looks pointless to the outside observers? Without it the beauty (like LMNO's post) couldn't shine out like a gem in a dunghill.
I hope your genitive organs become swollen and infected.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 17, 2011, 04:06:54 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 17, 2011, 04:05:49 AM
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 16, 2011, 07:21:58 PM
Yeah, I think this might be a mountain/molehill thing, but unfortunately now the mountainous molehill is blocking some nice scenery.
Would any thread be complete without a fight that looks pointless to the outside observers? Without it the beauty (like LMNO's post) couldn't shine out like a gem in a dunghill.
I hope your genitive organs become swollen and infected.
:lulz:
I am so going to nab this for the next time I can possibly ever use it.
Quote from: Nigel on May 17, 2011, 04:14:54 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 17, 2011, 04:06:54 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 17, 2011, 04:05:49 AM
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 16, 2011, 07:21:58 PM
Yeah, I think this might be a mountain/molehill thing, but unfortunately now the mountainous molehill is blocking some nice scenery.
Would any thread be complete without a fight that looks pointless to the outside observers? Without it the beauty (like LMNO's post) couldn't shine out like a gem in a dunghill.
I hope your genitive organs become swollen and infected.
:lulz:
I am so going to nab this for the next time I can possibly ever use it.
Glad to be of service.
Quote from: *GrumpButt* on May 17, 2011, 12:19:37 AM
Everytime I read her posts about Shamanblahblahblah I think about World of Warcraft. Is the only Shaman that makes any sense.
Also :lulz: Sub Urban Shaman
:lulz: :evil:
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 17, 2011, 04:06:54 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 17, 2011, 04:05:49 AM
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 16, 2011, 07:21:58 PM
Yeah, I think this might be a mountain/molehill thing, but unfortunately now the mountainous molehill is blocking some nice scenery.
Would any thread be complete without a fight that looks pointless to the outside observers? Without it the beauty (like LMNO's post) couldn't shine out like a gem in a dunghill.
I hope your genitive organs become swollen and infected.
Aw gee thanks. I hope you get to lay a dirty hooker soon too.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 08:30:24 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
I knew that. Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.
That's because reality isn't subjective.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
Although I doubt anyone is interested, there is a good book about shamanism and science out there that I can look up if anyone is curious.
Oh, this I GOTTA see.
The Eagle's Quest by Fred Alan Wolf
A physicist's personal study and "explanation" of shamanism.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 17, 2011, 05:12:36 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 08:30:24 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
I knew that. Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.
That's because reality isn't subjective.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
Although I doubt anyone is interested, there is a good book about shamanism and science out there that I can look up if anyone is curious.
Oh, this I GOTTA see.
The Eagle's Quest by Fred Alan Wolf
A physicist's personal study and "explanation" of shamanism.
"Because of quanta"
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PMSpiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.
My flatmate knew this shaman once, but the last thing we heard of her was in the local paper after she was sent to prison for stabbing her neighbour for closing the gate. Her rationale in court was that it impeded the free circulation of energy from the trees down the road.
True story. :lulz:
Quote from: Xooxe on May 17, 2011, 06:43:56 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PMSpiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.
My flatmate knew this shaman once, but the last thing we heard of her was in the local paper after she was sent to prison for stabbing her neighbour for closing the gate. Her rationale in court was that it impeded the free circulation of energy from the trees down the road.
True story. :lulz:
See what you made my elbow chakra do?
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 17, 2011, 05:12:36 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 08:30:24 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
I knew that. Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.
That's because reality isn't subjective.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
Although I doubt anyone is interested, there is a good book about shamanism and science out there that I can look up if anyone is curious.
Oh, this I GOTTA see.
The Eagle's Quest by Fred Alan Wolf
A physicist's personal study and "explanation" of shamanism.
You are aware Fred Alan Wolf is a laughing stock among theoretical physicists, right? He's a perfect example of a quantum mysticist weenie.
Also, I'm fairly sure a respectable figure would not have taken part in the patently fradulent Ramtha School production, What the Bleep Do We Know? Since it is so patently bullshit.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced
Where in Northern Europe is shamanism still practiced?
Do you mean all the homeopathetic natural "medicine" that's so popular in Germany? The "dr" Alfred Vogel of Bioforce AG, Biohorma and to have brought Echinacea from Sioux indians to Europe (http://www.avogel.nl/avogel-wereld/A.Vogel_verhalen/verhaal_echinacea.php)?
(BTW he was also a Jehova's Witness and used his profits to fund the Watchtower organisation, as well as argued and warned about the dangers of blood transfusion)
Dear sweet baby Jesus, did someone just quote that guy from "What the bleep do we know"?
For those who don't know, the movie was the product of a movement that follows the teachings of Ramtha, a 35,000-year old disembodied entity from ancient Lemuria.
Obviously, this man's beliefs about Teh Quantumz should be taken very seriously.
Honestly, her morals aside, I thought Wyldkat was one of the more intelligent TCCers.
Oops.
Plus he has Wolf in his name, so he is clearly a douchebag.
Well, if you don't know any better, I'm sure it sounds like science.
but
HIS NAME IS "WOLF" :lulz: COME ON!
(damnit Cain you sniped that one)
1. He calls himself "Dr Quantum".
2. (as observed above) he appeared in What The Bleep Do We Know?
3. He appeared in the film version of The Secret.
4. Sweet merciful fuck, someone made a film version of The Secret!
5. The book WK referenced was written in 1991. QM has come along a bit, since then.
That's one of the problems with trying to tie science and spirituality together... Spirituality gives you a TRUTH, and you can stop right there. Science keeps expanding its understanding, and the spirituality side has to keep doing Lo5 backflips to keep up... or they just ignore the new science and scream "QWANTUMZ!"
Shamanism, like many "faiths" is based in two things.
First, there's the attempt to explain shit people didn't understand, and to exert control over external forces. Essentially, it's primitive science, from back before people had a better grip on how things work. (We've still got aways to go... but, we've come a long way, baby).
And, second, it's a group's method of keeping control of the population. "I know better than you do, stupid sheeple, you must do what I say, because I know what the Spirit World wants."
It's either outdated, or bullshit. Or both.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 17, 2011, 05:12:36 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 08:30:24 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
I knew that. Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.
That's because reality isn't subjective.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
Although I doubt anyone is interested, there is a good book about shamanism and science out there that I can look up if anyone is curious.
Oh, this I GOTTA see.
The Eagle's Quest by Fred Alan Wolf
A physicist's personal study and "explanation" of shamanism.
That guy is a physicist like I'm a physicist. Seriously, he is thoroughly mocked and reviled in the scientific community for theories that have NO ACTUAL BASIS IN SCIENCE.
I'm sure it all sounds good and plausible to a layperson, but that guy is a crackpot who uses sciencey-sounding language to promote a New Age agenda. If people want to be all New Agey and spiritual, I think that's fine, but what's NOT fine is lying to people by telling them that physics supports your New Agey spirituality.
Nigel is riding the correct motorcycle. Shamanism is fine for people that want to play with shamanism... Hell it might even be beneficial as a sort of spirituality (which some people seem to have a need for). However, it isn't quantumz or physics... Its a model based on fiction.
I really cannot stand people who allow themselves to be spoonfed bullshit when they have the world's most powerful fact-find and sharing apparatus at their disposal. Religious dipshits in countries where they dont have running water have that excuse, people in a first world country with the spare time to post online do not.
http://scienceblogs.com/pontiff/2007/11/learn_quantum_theory_in_ten_mi.php
http://lesswrong.com/lw/r5/the_quantum_physics_sequence/
Both of those links are prominently displayed on this very forum. I mean, goddamnit.
Quote from: Nigel on May 17, 2011, 03:29:40 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 17, 2011, 05:12:36 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 08:30:24 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
I knew that. Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.
That's because reality isn't subjective.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
Although I doubt anyone is interested, there is a good book about shamanism and science out there that I can look up if anyone is curious.
Oh, this I GOTTA see.
The Eagle's Quest by Fred Alan Wolf
A physicist's personal study and "explanation" of shamanism.
That guy is a physicist like I'm a physicist. Seriously, he is thoroughly mocked and reviled in the scientific community for theories that have NO ACTUAL BASIS IN SCIENCE.
I'm sure it all sounds good and plausible to a layperson, but that guy is a crackpot who uses sciencey-sounding language to promote a New Age agenda. If people want to be all New Agey and spiritual, I think that's fine, but what's NOT fine is lying to people by telling them that physics supports your New Agey spirituality.
Ah, it's the return of The Dancing Wu Li Masters.
Fake science, designed to "prove" the value of mushy-headed crap.
I figured as much.
Great example of metaphor-stretching.
Quote from: Cain on May 17, 2011, 10:20:14 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 17, 2011, 05:12:36 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 16, 2011, 08:30:24 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
I knew that. Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.
That's because reality isn't subjective.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
Although I doubt anyone is interested, there is a good book about shamanism and science out there that I can look up if anyone is curious.
Oh, this I GOTTA see.
The Eagle's Quest by Fred Alan Wolf
A physicist's personal study and "explanation" of shamanism.
You are aware Fred Alan Wolf is a laughing stock among theoretical physicists, right? He's a perfect example of a quantum mysticist weenie.
Also, I'm fairly sure a respectable figure would not have taken part in the patently fradulent Ramtha School production, What the Bleep Do We Know? Since it is so patently bullshit.
Wyldkat
There's a half decent book on the topic called "Beyond the Bleep" which goes into depths about Wolf, even dedicating a whole chapter to him. The main problem is, as put in the book, "Wolf is accepting what Cramer (John Cramer and his calculations of possibility waves) without any attempt of analyzing whether it makes sense or not... Cramer is making an elementary error of assuming that quantum mechanics is about waves traveling in a physical space, rather then about 'state vectors' and 'density matrices' in a Hilbert space... There is no 'complex conjugation' operation in a Hilbert space - contrary to what Cramer suggests. Utnitary time reversal operation may exist - but it has nothing to do whatsoever with the scalar product that is being used for calculating 'probabilities''. Not to mention he's been accused of half-truths and misrepresentations though I suspect these are due to him being lost in his own little imaginary world then anything else.
To put it in really simple terms. It's all good to have mavericks in science, there is a need of them for new ideas, but as soon as you abandon the method and start to accept ideas without probably analyzing them your ideas could just be just nonsense pilled upon nonsense - then you start talking about how events can occur in reverse order from which they happened and the only goal of life is find god and the other stuff Wolf writes about in his books.
Hold on... Wolf doesn't calculate in Hilbert space?
:madbanana: :weary: :madbanana:
I'm really starting to warm to Elizier's notion that science should involve secretive initiation rituals and pseudo-religious grades and garb....because then idiots who go around trying to discover "secret knowledge" might figure out most of it is in scientific journals that people ignore because "The Secret" and "What the Bleep Do We Know?" panders to their half-baked metaphysical assumptions.
I'm gonna start a band called "The Bayesean Conspiracy".
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 17, 2011, 01:32:03 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced
Where in Northern Europe is shamanism still practiced?
Do you mean all the homeopathetic natural "medicine" that's so popular in Germany? The "dr" Alfred Vogel of Bioforce AG, Biohorma and to have brought Echinacea from Sioux indians to Europe (http://www.avogel.nl/avogel-wereld/A.Vogel_verhalen/verhaal_echinacea.php)?
(BTW he was also a Jehova's Witness and used his profits to fund the Watchtower organisation, as well as argued and warned about the dangers of blood transfusion)
It's probably something along these lines. http://boreale.konto.itv.se/rovaniemi.htm
Quote from: Cain on May 17, 2011, 04:47:01 PM
I'm really starting to warm to Elizier's notion that science should involve secretive initiation rituals and pseudo-religious grades and garb....because then idiots who go around trying to discover "secret knowledge" might figure out most of it is in scientific journals that people ignore because "The Secret" and "What the Bleep Do We Know?" panders to their half-baked metaphysical assumptions.
So so THIS!
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
You mean the Sami people? Lapp is a derogatory name. If you're going to rip off their religion, at least don't call them by racial epithets.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
I've heard them called both Lapps and Sami, but more commonly Lapplanders among my family.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
I've heard them called both Lapps and Sami, but more commonly Lapplanders among my family.
Then your family is the Finnish version of David Duke trailer trash.
Just saying.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:06:22 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
I've heard them called both Lapps and Sami, but more commonly Lapplanders among my family.
Then your family is the Finnish version of David Duke trailer trash.
Just saying.
:spittake:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:06:22 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
I've heard them called both Lapps and Sami, but more commonly Lapplanders among my family.
Then your family is the Finnish version of David Duke trailer trash.
Just saying.
Beat me to the punch. Better analogy too. :lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 18, 2011, 03:09:03 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:06:22 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
I've heard them called both Lapps and Sami, but more commonly Lapplanders among my family.
Then your family is the Finnish version of David Duke trailer trash.
Just saying.
Beat me to the punch. Better analogy too. :lulz:
It's like calling a Black person "nigger", or an Inuit person "eskimo", or the Welsh "people".
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:10:00 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 18, 2011, 03:09:03 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:06:22 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
I've heard them called both Lapps and Sami, but more commonly Lapplanders among my family.
Then your family is the Finnish version of David Duke trailer trash.
Just saying.
Beat me to the punch. Better analogy too. :lulz:
It's like calling a Black person "nigger", or an Inuit person "eskimo", or the Welsh "people".
Wait..."people" is an INSULT to the WELSH???
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 03:11:39 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:10:00 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 18, 2011, 03:09:03 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:06:22 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
I've heard them called both Lapps and Sami, but more commonly Lapplanders among my family.
Then your family is the Finnish version of David Duke trailer trash.
Just saying.
Beat me to the punch. Better analogy too. :lulz:
It's like calling a Black person "nigger", or an Inuit person "eskimo", or the Welsh "people".
Wait..."people" is an INSULT to the WELSH???
Nope. The Welsh are an insult - as a breed - to people.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:12:15 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 03:11:39 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:10:00 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 18, 2011, 03:09:03 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:06:22 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
I've heard them called both Lapps and Sami, but more commonly Lapplanders among my family.
Then your family is the Finnish version of David Duke trailer trash.
Just saying.
Beat me to the punch. Better analogy too. :lulz:
It's like calling a Black person "nigger", or an Inuit person "eskimo", or the Welsh "people".
Wait..."people" is an INSULT to the WELSH???
Nope. The Welsh are an insult - as a breed - to people.
:spittake:
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 17, 2011, 04:57:31 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 17, 2011, 01:32:03 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 16, 2011, 07:48:05 PM
My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced
Where in Northern Europe is shamanism still practiced?
Do you mean all the homeopathetic natural "medicine" that's so popular in Germany? The "dr" Alfred Vogel of Bioforce AG, Biohorma and to have brought Echinacea from Sioux indians to Europe (http://www.avogel.nl/avogel-wereld/A.Vogel_verhalen/verhaal_echinacea.php)?
(BTW he was also a Jehova's Witness and used his profits to fund the Watchtower organisation, as well as argued and warned about the dangers of blood transfusion)
It's probably something along these lines. http://boreale.konto.itv.se/rovaniemi.htm
Told you gais.
The link has some points of interest about what gets called Sami "shamanism" these days.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:12:15 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 03:11:39 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:10:00 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 18, 2011, 03:09:03 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:06:22 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
I've heard them called both Lapps and Sami, but more commonly Lapplanders among my family.
Then your family is the Finnish version of David Duke trailer trash.
Just saying.
Beat me to the punch. Better analogy too. :lulz:
It's like calling a Black person "nigger", or an Inuit person "eskimo", or the Welsh "people".
Wait..."people" is an INSULT to the WELSH???
Nope. The Welsh are an insult - as a breed - to people.
Yeah...the best they could do was TOM JONES??
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:10:00 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 18, 2011, 03:09:03 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2011, 03:06:22 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
I've heard them called both Lapps and Sami, but more commonly Lapplanders among my family.
Then your family is the Finnish version of David Duke trailer trash.
Just saying.
Beat me to the punch. Better analogy too. :lulz:
It's like calling a Black person "nigger", or an Inuit person "eskimo", or the Welsh "people".
:argh!:
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
No, you're not. I'm betting you've never even BEEN to Sweden. Having Swedish ancestors doesn't make YOU Swedish, jerklips.
That's the people that get high by feeding fly agaric to reindeer and then drinking their piss, right?
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 18, 2011, 04:11:56 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
No, you're not. I'm betting you've never even BEEN to Sweden. Having Swedish ancestors doesn't make YOU Swedish, jerklips.
And that's a GOOD thing. :) A "blessing" I would say.
During these time at least. Lost the gold in ice hockey few days ago and all that.
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 19, 2011, 09:46:58 AM
That's the people that get high by feeding fly agaric to reindeer and then drinking their piss, right?
I think they all up there in the norther parts of the countries do that. Norwegians, swedes, finns and russians.
The air is thinner or something.
Well, they're damn good at making heavy metal, I can give them that much. Some of the best metal bands around come from Finland.
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 19, 2011, 10:51:29 AM
Well, they're damn good at making heavy metal, I can give them that much. Some of the best metal bands around come from Finland.
Yeah but we also like to kill ourselves way too much. It's like we just like to do it. Perhaps there is the connection?
There are two options, suicide or music.
It would explain this :http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/todaysfeatures/2007/September/todaysfeatures_September15.xml§ion=todaysfeatures&col (http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/todaysfeatures/2007/September/todaysfeatures_September15.xml§ion=todaysfeatures&col)
Because what started to happen at the same time? Better albums started to appear everywhere. :eek:
Weird times I tell you.
Quote from: Cain on May 14, 2011, 12:46:32 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
Then you need to harass this person (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6821) with your visions of imminent doom more often.
Hey!
Quote from: Doktor Blight on May 19, 2011, 03:49:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 14, 2011, 12:46:32 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
Then you need to harass this person (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6821) with your visions of imminent doom more often.
Hey!
Dammit. I want a villager to respect my authoritay as the apocalyptic vision-haver! And give me some fucking goats!
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 18, 2011, 04:11:56 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
No, you're not. I'm betting you've never even BEEN to Sweden. Having Swedish ancestors doesn't make YOU Swedish, jerklips.
This brings up an interesting question. If one of your parents is an American of indeterminate/mixed racial origin, and moves to the UK, breeds, and has you with some Britspag for the other parent, are you then half British and half American? Do you get to go around telling people about your American heritage? How does that work, exactly?
What about a half-Australian, half-American born in France?
Quote from: Nigel on May 19, 2011, 04:07:15 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on May 19, 2011, 03:49:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 14, 2011, 12:46:32 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
Then you need to harass this person (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6821) with your visions of imminent doom more often.
Hey!
Dammit. I want a villager to respect my authoritay as the apocalyptic vision-haver! And give me some fucking goats!
We ran out of goats last week I'm afraid. Not that easy to come by in Boston.
Or half Canadian, half Kiwi, conceived in India but born in Egypt and living in the Phillipines?
Quote from: Doktor Blight on May 19, 2011, 04:10:54 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 19, 2011, 04:07:15 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on May 19, 2011, 03:49:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 14, 2011, 12:46:32 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
Then you need to harass this person (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6821) with your visions of imminent doom more often.
Hey!
Dammit. I want a villager to respect my authoritay as the apocalyptic vision-haver! And give me some fucking goats!
We ran out of goats last week I'm afraid. Not that easy to come by in Boston.
:cry:
Im 100% homo sapien
unfortunately
I'm 102% Spag, 5% sawdust, 50% nylon, and 2% milk.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on May 19, 2011, 04:10:54 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 19, 2011, 04:07:15 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on May 19, 2011, 03:49:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 14, 2011, 12:46:32 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
Then you need to harass this person (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6821) with your visions of imminent doom more often.
Hey!
Dammit. I want a villager to respect my authoritay as the apocalyptic vision-haver! And give me some fucking goats!
We ran out of goats last week I'm afraid. Not that easy to come by in Boston.
My bad, I shouldn't have stared at them. :oops:
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 19, 2011, 04:14:12 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on May 19, 2011, 04:10:54 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 19, 2011, 04:07:15 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on May 19, 2011, 03:49:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 14, 2011, 12:46:32 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
Then you need to harass this person (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6821) with your visions of imminent doom more often.
Hey!
Dammit. I want a villager to respect my authoritay as the apocalyptic vision-haver! And give me some fucking goats!
We ran out of goats last week I'm afraid. Not that easy to come by in Boston.
My bad, I shouldn't have stared at them. :oops:
:spittake:
Quote from: Nigel on May 19, 2011, 04:11:01 PM
Or half Canadian, half Kiwi, conceived in India but born in Egypt and living in the Phillipines?
Assuming the Canadian is from Quebec, I would say French-Maori with an Egyptian passport.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 19, 2011, 04:14:12 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on May 19, 2011, 04:10:54 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 19, 2011, 04:07:15 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on May 19, 2011, 03:49:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 14, 2011, 12:46:32 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 14, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. :cry:
Then you need to harass this person (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6821) with your visions of imminent doom more often.
Hey!
Dammit. I want a villager to respect my authoritay as the apocalyptic vision-haver! And give me some fucking goats!
We ran out of goats last week I'm afraid. Not that easy to come by in Boston.
My bad, I shouldn't have stared at them. :oops:
DAMN YOU CHARLEY!!!!
Quote from: Nigel on May 19, 2011, 04:11:01 PM
Or half Canadian, half Kiwi, conceived in India but born in Egypt and living in the Phillipines?
It means you're still not Swedish.
Quote from: Cain on May 19, 2011, 04:22:36 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 19, 2011, 04:11:01 PM
Or half Canadian, half Kiwi, conceived in India but born in Egypt and living in the Phillipines?
It means you're still not Swedish.
:lulz:
Quote from: Nigel on May 19, 2011, 04:09:59 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 18, 2011, 04:11:56 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
No, you're not. I'm betting you've never even BEEN to Sweden. Having Swedish ancestors doesn't make YOU Swedish, jerklips.
This brings up an interesting question. If one of your parents is an American of indeterminate/mixed racial origin, and moves to the UK, breeds, and has you with some Britspag for the other parent, are you then half British and half American? Do you get to go around telling people about your American heritage? How does that work, exactly?
What about a half-Australian, half-American born in France?
I'd say you're British, though obviously with american heritage.
"I have American heritage" != "I'm half-American."
As for the half Aussie/half American born in France, I'd say they're French, provided they live there and grow up with that language and culture as their baseline. If they're just BORN in France but move back to one country or the other in infancy, then that's a different story.
Basically, what I'm saying is that where you're "from" is way more a product of your cultural/linguistic imprints than of your genetic heritage.
For example...
I was born in Maine, but only because my parents refused to have me at the hospital on STT, which was sub-3rd world back in the 70s. We moved back to the island as soon as they were comfortable putting my infant ass on a plane. As far as I (and everyone else in the world whose opinion I care about) am concerned, being born in Maine has no bearing on what I "am". My earliest cultural and linguistic imprints are Anglophone Caribbean, my family ties are to the Caribbean, and if the USVI ever became an independent sovereign country, I'd give up my US citizenship for VI citizenship.
I'm also not saying that people shouldn't embrace and/or honor their heritage. Of course they should (unless they're Welsh). But what you are and how you got there are two different things.
Quote from: Cain on May 19, 2011, 04:22:36 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 19, 2011, 04:11:01 PM
Or half Canadian, half Kiwi, conceived in India but born in Egypt and living in the Phillipines?
It means you're still not Swedish.
:lulz:
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 19, 2011, 04:28:14 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 19, 2011, 04:09:59 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 18, 2011, 04:11:56 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
No, you're not. I'm betting you've never even BEEN to Sweden. Having Swedish ancestors doesn't make YOU Swedish, jerklips.
This brings up an interesting question. If one of your parents is an American of indeterminate/mixed racial origin, and moves to the UK, breeds, and has you with some Britspag for the other parent, are you then half British and half American? Do you get to go around telling people about your American heritage? How does that work, exactly?
What about a half-Australian, half-American born in France?
I'd say you're British, though obviously with american heritage.
"I have American heritage" != "I'm half-American."
As for the half Aussie/half American born in France, I'd say they're French, provided they live there and grow up with that language and culture as their baseline. If they're just BORN in France but move back to one country or the other in infancy, then that's a different story.
Basically, what I'm saying is that where you're "from" is way more a product of your cultural/linguistic imprints than of your genetic heritage.
For example...
I was born in Maine, but only because my parents refused to have me at the hospital on STT, which was sub-3rd world back in the 70s. We moved back to the island as soon as they were comfortable putting my infant ass on a plane. As far as I (and everyone else in the world whose opinion I care about) am concerned, being born in Maine has no bearing on what I "am". My earliest cultural and linguistic imprints are Anglophone Caribbean, my family ties are to the Caribbean, and if the USVI ever became an independent sovereign country, I'd give up my US citizenship for VI citizenship.
I'm also not saying that people shouldn't embrace and/or honor their heritage. Of course they should (unless they're Welsh). But what you are and how you got there are two different things.
:argh!:
:lulz:
Yeah, that was pretty much the point I was trying to make. I'm of American indian, Welsh, and African descent... but when it comes right down to it, my national identity is American, and my regional identity is Pacific Northwest... those are more significant identifiers and vastly more informative about who I am than trying to look at my ancestral origins. Although, you still have to take into consideration the different experience someone will have simply by being brown, even in a liberal-progressive haven like Portland. (HINT: it makes you invisible to white people!)
I noticed some Americans bringing up other countries as backup identities and I wondered whether people do that a lot over there.
Quote from: Xooxe on May 19, 2011, 06:10:41 PM
I noticed some Americans bringing up other countries as backup identities and I wondered whether people do that a lot over there.
Yes we do. We're not an old enough country to have much heritage, plus we still get a fair amount of immigration from the rest of the world.
I don't know about over there, but the ones I knew over here did it so often it was frequently mocked.
It's a natural part of the American dialect. I think it's not so much a part of America being a young country so much as a recognition that Americans come from a lot of different places, at least ancestrally, and it's an attempt to both embrace American culture and whatever background culture you want to continue to identify with. I don't see anything unreasonable about it. Actually in context it makes a bit of sense.
a) Historically recent immigrant populations to the US have been shunned by well established American populations (Irish, Germans, Chinese, etc in the 19th Century and Latinos, Haitians and Arabs in the 20th/21st). This of course leads to said immigrant populations holding onto their identity and banding together, even while trying to assimilate into American society.
b) Your genetic background still has some bearing on culture in the United States. For example, an Irish American and an Italian American are going to have some cultural commonalities, due to being American, and dissimilarities, due to having certain family traditions/expectations.
c) The immigrant culture, over time, gets bastardized enough with Americanness that it's sometimes important to tack that American on at the end :lulz:
But seriously, people who identify strongly as Irish Americans make me laugh. It's very South Boston and a caricature that I was exposed to a lot in high school.
Quote from: Reeducation on May 19, 2011, 11:09:28 AM
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 19, 2011, 10:51:29 AM
Well, they're damn good at making heavy metal, I can give them that much. Some of the best metal bands around come from Finland.
Yeah but we also like to kill ourselves way too much. It's like we just like to do it. Perhaps there is the connection?
There are two options, suicide or music.
It would explain this :http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/todaysfeatures/2007/September/todaysfeatures_September15.xml§ion=todaysfeatures&col (http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/todaysfeatures/2007/September/todaysfeatures_September15.xml§ion=todaysfeatures&col)
Because what started to happen at the same time? Better albums started to appear everywhere. :eek:
Weird times I tell you.
I believe it.
Texas is a horrible state and we turn out tons of great musicians. I'm pretty sure it's because workers here have no rights and get treated like shit. If a person has a modicum of talent, they hone the shit out of it to keep from having to enter the slave labor force.
Quote from: Xooxe on May 19, 2011, 06:10:41 PM
I noticed some Americans bringing up other countries as backup identities and I wondered whether people do that a lot over there.
Its a common bar in American BIP's :D
Quote from: Nigel on May 19, 2011, 04:11:01 PM
Or half Canadian, half Kiwi, conceived in India but born in Egypt and living in the Phillipines?
Nice to meet you. I'm a human.
Quote from: ϗ, M.S. on May 19, 2011, 07:58:31 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 19, 2011, 04:11:01 PM
Or half Canadian, half Kiwi, conceived in India but born in Egypt and living in the Phillipines?
Nice to meet you. I'm a human.
Prove it, bug man. :D
I agree with Blight that it's basically just part of typical American dialogue for a lot of people, and it certainly does have a lot to do with the USA's history as a collector of immigrants from basically everywhere. There is some sense in identifying, at least to some extent, with one's Irish, German, Chinese, or Whateverthefuck heritage.
But, I also certainly agree that a lot of Americans make a ridiculous game out of it, trying to one-up each other in the Ancestral Lottery. You can win prizes for being a hybrid of two otherwise unmixed nationalities, for being able to trace your lineage back to at least 5 separate ethnic or cultural backgrounds, or for having something really obscure in your ancestry (even if it's like 6 generation back). It's dumb and 95% of the time it has exactly zero bearing on anything meaningful about the person, and it has about as much relevance as one's goddamn astrological sign. It only defines your personality as far as you choose to let it.
Normally I wouldn't care about this, but my mom and her sister have been going apeshit with the geneology thing lately, and it's been getting on my tits. I don't define myself based on whose spunk made it into whose EZ-Bake Uterus a hundred years ago.
In Canada, your ancestral affinity is a big part of your cultural identity. There is a line drawn, however, as to how much it has affected your actual "self." For example, I'm a 3rd and 4th generation immigrant from my mom's side, from England and Scotland. No one, however, holds dear any of the traditions or cooking or whatever from that past, and this side of the family is easily well on it's way to being "Canadian" or "North American" instead of focusing on the immigrational roots. My dad's side of the family, however, is Russian. Most of them still live in the Russianish areas of Canada, they all speak Russian (except for me and my siblings, because my dad decided to get the fuck outta dodge) still eat traditional foods... If someone asks me what I am, I'm likely to say Russian (with the understanding that I'm also 100% Canadian)
It may be interesting to note that (we were told this in my Russian class) if you try to tell a Russian, in Russia, that you are Canadian, they will not accept that answer and keep asking until you tell them that your Dad was Russkie and your mother was Shotlandka, etc. I'm not sue if it's the same with Americans or not.
In school, we are taught that America is a melting pot, of stripping away old affinities in order to BE AMERICAN, whereas Canada is a potpourri or potluck of different cultures coming in harmony and smiles to be a big happy, diverse family, yaaaay.
Quote from: Nadezhda on May 20, 2011, 05:03:08 PM
My dad's side of the family, however, is Russian. Most of them still live in the Russianish areas of Canada,
Which is everything outside of Windsor and the maritime provinces.
TGRR,
Knows your ways, commie.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 20, 2011, 05:11:15 PM
Quote from: Nadezhda on May 20, 2011, 05:03:08 PM
My dad's side of the family, however, is Russian. Most of them still live in the Russianish areas of Canada,
Which is everything outside of Windsor and the maritime provinces.
TGRR,
Knows your ways, commie.
What'd you expect from someone called Nadezdha?
She married Lenin and broke up The Beatles.
Well okay yeah
My brand of Communist is the Doukhobours, who said "The Church is corrupt, fuck you." and burned all their weapons and became vegetarians to piss off the rest of Russia (and it worked.) After being imported to Canada (to colonize the prairies and beyond to choke out the Native Americans) their children were sent to residential schools, so the fundamentalists among them got naked and burned down public buildings.
Fuck yeah, communism. Coocookachuuuuu.
WAIT NO
I am teh Rushhen, which means itz in my blood to be a SHAMAN. I ARE SIBRRRRIAN SHAMEN!
Quote from: Nadezhda on May 20, 2011, 07:14:21 PM
WAIT NO
I am teh Rushhen, which means itz in my blood to be a SHAMAN. I ARE SIBRRRRIAN SHRAMEN!
Quote from: Nadezhda on May 20, 2011, 07:14:21 PM
WAIT NO
I am teh Rushhen, which means itz in my blood to be a SHAMAN. I ARE SIBRRRRIAN SHAMEN!
:lulz:
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 18, 2011, 04:11:56 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
No, you're not. I'm betting you've never even BEEN to Sweden. Having Swedish ancestors doesn't make YOU Swedish, jerklips.
I have been there and Finland several times during my life thus far and as soon as the boys are old enough they are going to be going there too, to meet relatives and see the country their Mormor grew up in. She's pushing for the trip soon, but the little Bear is still way to uncomfortable in new situations to deal with it. I was brought up with many of the practices, foods, and customs of that area. I even know some Swedish, believe it or not. Not much, nothing like my cousin who immigrated to Sweden and speaks several different languages, but still more than none. I'm trying to get my mom to teach the boys enough to be fluent. I never said I was Swedish. I said I was 50% Swedish, which is very true. I am also 25% Polish and 25% German, with a little French from somewhere at some point. I'm also 100% American. *shrugs* Go melting pot.
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 24, 2011, 06:45:14 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 18, 2011, 04:11:56 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
No, you're not. I'm betting you've never even BEEN to Sweden. Having Swedish ancestors doesn't make YOU Swedish, jerklips.
I have been there and Finland several times during my life thus far and as soon as the boys are old enough they are going to be going there too, to meet relatives and see the country their Mormor grew up in. She's pushing for the trip soon, but the little Bear is still way to uncomfortable in new situations to deal with it. I was brought up with many of the practices, foods, and customs of that area. I even know some Swedish, believe it or not. Not much, nothing like my cousin who immigrated to Sweden and speaks several different languages, but still more than none. I'm trying to get my mom to teach the boys enough to be fluent. I never said I was Swedish. I said I was 50% Swedish, which is very true. I am also 25% Polish and 25% German, with a little French from somewhere at some point. I'm also 100% American. *shrugs* Go melting pot.
Yay for pedantry and non-answers.
So...you've never been to Sweden. :lulz:
Instead of giving everything except that answer, you could have just said that.
Quote from: ϗ, M.S. on May 24, 2011, 05:36:53 PM
So...you've never been to Sweden. :lulz:
Instead of giving everything except that answer, you could have just said that.
I thought that the first line said that she had been to both Sweden and Finland several times in her life? It was a little awkwardly phrased, but I think that is what it means.
I'm so Scandinavian, I Finnish before I start.
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 24, 2011, 05:54:26 PM
I'm so Scandinavian, I Finnish before I start.
My condolences to your spouse. :wink:
Quote from: Luna on May 24, 2011, 05:55:05 PM
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 24, 2011, 05:54:26 PM
I'm so Scandinavian, I Finnish before I start.
My condolences to your spouse. :wink:
:spittake:
RWHN PWNED by his own pun.
Damn, should've gone with the Norwegian wood joke instead!
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 24, 2011, 06:45:14 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 18, 2011, 04:11:56 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 03:04:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 18, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 18, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
I read the book YEARS ago. I think I was still in college and simply remembered that it was an interesting book that involved science and shamanism and that I enjoyed reading it at the time. Now I'm going to have to find time to reread it, research the concepts and see exactly how far out there the author actually is! That amount of time might take awhile to find...
As to who in Northern Europe still follows shamanism, some of the Lapps in Sweden still follow their old beliefs and practices.
Are you a Lapp? Are you from Sweden directly?
My mother immigrated from Finland. She is a Swedish Finn from generations of Swedish Finns who can trace their ancestry back to Sweden. I am 50% Swedish.
No, you're not. I'm betting you've never even BEEN to Sweden. Having Swedish ancestors doesn't make YOU Swedish, jerklips.
I have been there and Finland several times during my life thus far and as soon as the boys are old enough they are going to be going there too, to meet relatives and see the country their Mormor grew up in. She's pushing for the trip soon, but the little Bear is still way to uncomfortable in new situations to deal with it. I was brought up with many of the practices, foods, and customs of that area. I even know some Swedish, believe it or not. Not much, nothing like my cousin who immigrated to Sweden and speaks several different languages, but still more than none. I'm trying to get my mom to teach the boys enough to be fluent. I never said I was Swedish. I said I was 50% Swedish, which is very true. I am also 25% Polish and 25% German, with a little French from somewhere at some point. I'm also 100% American. *shrugs* Go melting pot.
That's over 200%. While the fact that you are pagan means that you are probably morbidly obese, you're still only 100% of a person. A person that is not Swedish, regardless of whether or not some of your ancestors were Swedish.