Some bosses talk about "work/life balance", and use it to try to get you to work late, and off the books. They stress family, and decompressing, and "recharging", but what they really want to do is make sure you're committed to the company, you'll work over the weekend, you'll put in the extra hours.
Your responsibility is to take that control back. "Work/life balance" means "how much work do you have to do to live the life you want?" If you're comfortable living in a shitty apartment with an all-Ramen diet in order to spend your time painting, then you need a job that will give you flexibility in your hours, and requires the minimum amount of attention needed so you can get out and go back to your easel and palette. If you want a condo and a car and nice meals, then you need a job that will provide for that.
Sure, sounds like nothing new. But people don't DO this. They consider "work"and "life" to be the SAME DAMN THING. They get a job, make some money, then work harder, get more money, and soon they're working so fucking hard they've forgotten what they wanted the money FOR. Everyone WANTS, but they don't know WHY they want. Believe it or not, comfort comes cheap.
Figure out what you want to be doing when you're not working. That's your price point. Look for jobs that will allow you the freedom, in both time and money, to do what you want to do. Then, of course, you have to get off your ass and actually do it. But that's a different topic.
[Note: this post was apparently written from a perspective of privilege. I know there are some people for whom the concept of "choosing a job" is an impossibility. Apologies.]
At the moment i have the ideal job for what i want to do. Theres just one snag. It pays me about 100 less a week than what i need. And about 250 less than i would need to ideally start accruing money. So ill have to find a way to balance more.
I do know that if I go more than 5 days without going to work, I get depressed.
But I think that's because of adrenaline withdrawl.
There's always roof surfing and/or trolling 4th Avenue.
I recall Randy Pausch's famous Last Lecture (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji5_MqicxSo), where he talks about the difference between time and money. Money can be regained; it won't be immediate, but it can be done. Time, however, is only limited. He said, "If students come to me wondering whether they can spend the money to go to school, I tell them to get out of my office. If they come to me asking whether it is worth their time, then we talk."
I figured it out a few days ago: If we just throw out an average life span number, say, 85 (I know, it's a guess; deal with it), and subtract my age, and divide that by four, and figure out the percentage of time the next four years is to the rest of my remaining life, well, I guess at about 7%. Without contingencies I can't predict, the amount of time I have lined up to get my PhD is about 7% of my remaining lifetime.
So, I have to ask myself, is going back to grad school, working on insect systematics, is that really what I want to be spending majority share of 7% of the rest of my life doing? Is it worth that limited time? Well, fuck yes of COURSE IT IS! I remember one of my master's program advisors asking me, "Why are you here?" And I didn't really have an answer, but he told me, "you're here to /have fun/. Because if you're not having fun, it's not worth your time."
And really, it isn't. Bitch and moan about money all I want, it's not worth my time to spend the next four years working at a restaurant because it's financially safer, because I have free housing, because it will allow me to pay off my loans quicker. It's a total waste of those four years in the sense I can never get them back. Ever.
But there's still the issue of balance in that. Yes, graduate school is helluva fun, but if I try to do 12 hour days for more than a couple days in a row, I burn out hard. One of my advisors (different advisor this time) told me "you know, the top tear researchers spend upwards of 60, 70 hour weeks working, so you should really consider that schedule". Now, arguments about work period length and productivity aside, this is not a bright idea for other reasons. Namely, such a life consists entirely of one thing. Which is probably much like eating pizza for every meal. Sure, you get the necessary amounts of calories and most other nutrients, but eventually you end up fat and sedentary, which not only lowers total happiness but raises that 7% to maybe 20%, 30% or more. I am completely unwilling to compromise on a 40 hour workweek. I may read and write and will definitely learn outside that timeframe, but I will not spend more than that in laboratory marathon. 20 hours for whatever I owe the research assistantship, and 20 hours for everything else. 8 hours a day will be for sleep. The rest is to actually enjoy myself and not feel ashamed of that. And it's perfectly fine for me to demand this; it's my life after all, my limited time, my "sexually transmitted disease which is invariably terminal."
That's a really good point. I was trying to think about the rare few who have jobs doing what they love-- and you nailed it. Even when I have an entire day to write, mix, or play music- which are things I can lose myself in for hours- it isn't self-sustainable. I have to walk away at a certain point. Even passions have their limits.
If you lose track of time, you're doing the right thing. If you keep looking at the clock and counting down to when you can GTFO, run.
Something else that stumps me is people who pay for a fuckload of cable channels and are either not home or too tired to watch more than an hour or so.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 08, 2012, 10:41:59 PM
That's a really good point. I was trying to think about the rare few who have jobs doing what they love-- and you nailed it. Even when I have an entire day to write, mix, or play music- which are things I can lose myself in for hours- it isn't self-sustainable. I have to walk away at a certain point. Even passions have their limits.
It's not sustainable. Even if you are able to do it and not burn out, that's probably because you have an obsession. And obsessions generally lead to worse things than burn out; I can recover from burn out with some rest, but not so easily from the inevitable psychological addiction within extended obsession.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 08, 2012, 10:08:49 PM
Some bosses talk about "work/life balance", and use it to try to get you to work late, and off the books. They stress family, and decompressing, and "recharging", but what they really want to do is make sure you're committed to the company, you'll work over the weekend, you'll put in the extra hours.
Your responsibility is to take that control back. "Work/life balance" means "how much work do you have to do to live the life you want?" If you're comfortable living in a shitty apartment with an all-Ramen diet in order to spend your time painting, then you need a job that will give you flexibility in your hours, and requires the minimum amount of attention needed so you can get out and go back to your easel and palette. If you want a condo and a car and nice meals, then you need a job that will provide for that.
Sure, sounds like nothing new. But people don't DO this. They consider "work"and "life" to be the SAME DAMN THING. They get a job, make some money, then work harder, get more money, and soon they're working so fucking hard they've forgotten what they wanted the money FOR. Everyone WANTS, but they don't know WHY they want. Believe it or not, comfort comes cheap.
Figure out what you want to be doing when you're not working. That's your price point. Look for jobs that will allow you the freedom, in both time and money, to do what you want to do. Then, of course, you have to get off your ass and actually do it. But that's a different topic.
[Note: this post was apparently written from a perspective of privilege. I know there are some people for whom the concept of "choosing a job" is an impossibility. Apologies.]
This is why I make sammiches part time. It gets me out of the house, I pick my hours, and I make some cash. Then spend the rest of the time with books, music, and yarn.
Bo-yah!
A lot of this sounds like the Sex and Cash (http://gapingvoid.com/2004/03/25/the-sex-cash-theory/)theory I read a few years ago.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 09, 2012, 06:43:17 AM
A lot of this sounds like the Sex and Cash (http://gapingvoid.com/2004/03/25/the-sex-cash-theory/)theory I read a few years ago.
That's fucking scary.
If I took a shit job, all anybody wants you for here is nights.
And nights are when I make money.
FUCK.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 09, 2012, 06:54:27 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 09, 2012, 06:43:17 AM
A lot of this sounds like the Sex and Cash (http://gapingvoid.com/2004/03/25/the-sex-cash-theory/)theory I read a few years ago.
That's fucking scary.
If I took a shit job, all anybody wants you for here is nights.
And nights are when I make money.
FUCK.
Scary why? What's the problem with timing?
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 09, 2012, 12:56:09 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 08, 2012, 10:41:59 PM
That's a really good point. I was trying to think about the rare few who have jobs doing what they love-- and you nailed it. Even when I have an entire day to write, mix, or play music- which are things I can lose myself in for hours- it isn't self-sustainable. I have to walk away at a certain point. Even passions have their limits.
It's not sustainable. Even if you are able to do it and not burn out, that's probably because you have an obsession. And obsessions generally lead to worse things than burn out; I can recover from burn out with some rest, but not so easily from the inevitable psychological addiction within extended obsession.
Wait, are you guys talking about something more than just simple exhaustion? I can understand getting worn out from doing a lot of what you love, just because any activity consumes energy, but as far as getting to a point where you
don't want to do it any more (temporarily) - not sure I'm with you on that.
Does that mean I'm obsessed?
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 09, 2012, 07:54:41 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 09, 2012, 06:54:27 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 09, 2012, 06:43:17 AM
A lot of this sounds like the Sex and Cash (http://gapingvoid.com/2004/03/25/the-sex-cash-theory/)theory I read a few years ago.
That's fucking scary.
If I took a shit job, all anybody wants you for here is nights.
And nights are when I make money.
FUCK.
Scary why? What's the problem with timing?
I get a lot of calls at night compared to daytime.
If I took a regular job, I'd lose customers.
It's an "either/or thing", not a "both".
I don't buy into that "sex and cash" theory AT ALL. I know too many people who make a living doing what they love; dichotomizing it is simplistic binary bullshit.
My last career change, I asked myself, what do I love doing so much that I think about it all the time and have been doing it in my spare time whenever I have a chance for years? The answer was, glass. So I spent the next ten years immersed in glass. Everything was about glass, not 40 hours a week, but probably over 90 hours a week. When the market tanked and I started to burn out (not on the glass, but on the discouragement) I realized I needed to do something else, at first I was going to go to school for chemistry, because so much of what I know about glass is chemistry and I could maybe get a job as a batch chemist. But then I asked myself, what do I geek out about in my spare time? What do I fucking love so much that I read about it even though it has minimal practical application in my life? What's the thing that my friends think I'm fucking weird for being so into? Oh goddamn right, irrational human behavior and how it impacts the spread of dysfunction and disease!
And you disgusting freaks will never, ever stop doing shit that is completely contrary to your own best interests, so there will ALWAYS be new and novel horrible things to try to wrap my head around. I've never been so excited about anything in my life, except maybe really good sushi.
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 09, 2012, 09:51:50 PM
I don't buy into that "sex and cash" theory AT ALL. I know too many people who make a living doing what they love; dichotomizing it is simplistic binary bullshit.
My last career change, I asked myself, what do I love doing so much that I think about it all the time and have been doing it in my spare time whenever I have a chance for years? The answer was, glass. So I spent the next ten years immersed in glass. Everything was about glass, not 40 hours a week, but probably over 90 hours a week. When the market tanked and I started to burn out (not on the glass, but on the discouragement) I realized I needed to do something else, at first I was going to go to school for chemistry, because so much of what I know about glass is chemistry and I could maybe get a job as a batch chemist. But then I asked myself, what do I geek out about in my spare time? What do I fucking love so much that I read about it even though it has minimal practical application in my life? What's the thing that my friends think I'm fucking weird for being so into? Oh goddamn right, irrational human behavior and how it impacts the spread of dysfunction and disease!
And you disgusting freaks will never, ever stop doing shit that is completely contrary to your own best interests, so there will ALWAYS be new and novel horrible things to try to wrap my head around. I've never been so excited about anything in my life, except maybe really good sushi.
I like this. A lot.
And I know some people who just do art, or music, or whatever. No day job waiting tables. Nigel has the correct motorcycle AGAIN.
Just because not everyone has found a way to do it doesn't mean it's impossible.
Quote from: Epimetheus on June 09, 2012, 08:13:48 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 09, 2012, 12:56:09 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 08, 2012, 10:41:59 PM
That's a really good point. I was trying to think about the rare few who have jobs doing what they love-- and you nailed it. Even when I have an entire day to write, mix, or play music- which are things I can lose myself in for hours- it isn't self-sustainable. I have to walk away at a certain point. Even passions have their limits.
It's not sustainable. Even if you are able to do it and not burn out, that's probably because you have an obsession. And obsessions generally lead to worse things than burn out; I can recover from burn out with some rest, but not so easily from the inevitable psychological addiction within extended obsession.
Wait, are you guys talking about something more than just simple exhaustion? I can understand getting worn out from doing a lot of what you love, just because any activity consumes energy, but as far as getting to a point where you don't want to do it any more (temporarily) - not sure I'm with you on that.
Does that mean I'm obsessed?
More than simple exhaustion, yes. If you've ever experienced burnout, you get the general idea. The human mind seeks novelty. Doing the same things over and over, no matter how much your initial passion, will throw a wrench in the system until it breaks, either in the form of burnout, or in the form of obsession. In the latter case, that novelty seeking reward gets switched to a circular feedback rewarding the obsession. Ever heard Yudowsky talk about having your mind reprogrammed so that you like to do something that would otherwise bore you? That's pretty much it, except without the transhumanist tech.
Or, conversely, I could be full of it.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 09, 2012, 06:43:17 AM
A lot of this sounds like the Sex and Cash (http://gapingvoid.com/2004/03/25/the-sex-cash-theory/)theory I read a few years ago.
To be clear, I'm not advocating "sex and cash". I certainly will not be doing that the next four years.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 09, 2012, 06:11:18 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 09, 2012, 07:54:41 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 09, 2012, 06:54:27 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 09, 2012, 06:43:17 AM
A lot of this sounds like the Sex and Cash (http://gapingvoid.com/2004/03/25/the-sex-cash-theory/)theory I read a few years ago.
That's fucking scary.
If I took a shit job, all anybody wants you for here is nights.
And nights are when I make money.
FUCK.
Scary why? What's the problem with timing?
I get a lot of calls at night compared to daytime.
If I took a regular job, I'd lose customers.
It's an "either/or thing", not a "both".
I'm guessing you're talking about the impact of taking on conventional work on top of your current creative work?
I'm really sorry Spags (if that a good shorthand for your handle?), but I'm not familiar with the context here, of what you do, what the calls are for etc. Could you fill me in?
I think she is a phone cartomancer.
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 10, 2012, 02:45:37 AM
Quote from: Epimetheus on June 09, 2012, 08:13:48 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 09, 2012, 12:56:09 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 08, 2012, 10:41:59 PM
That's a really good point. I was trying to think about the rare few who have jobs doing what they love-- and you nailed it. Even when I have an entire day to write, mix, or play music- which are things I can lose myself in for hours- it isn't self-sustainable. I have to walk away at a certain point. Even passions have their limits.
It's not sustainable. Even if you are able to do it and not burn out, that's probably because you have an obsession. And obsessions generally lead to worse things than burn out; I can recover from burn out with some rest, but not so easily from the inevitable psychological addiction within extended obsession.
Wait, are you guys talking about something more than just simple exhaustion? I can understand getting worn out from doing a lot of what you love, just because any activity consumes energy, but as far as getting to a point where you don't want to do it any more (temporarily) - not sure I'm with you on that.
Does that mean I'm obsessed?
More than simple exhaustion, yes. If you've ever experienced burnout, you get the general idea. The human mind seeks novelty. Doing the same things over and over, no matter how much your initial passion, will throw a wrench in the system until it breaks, either in the form of burnout, or in the form of obsession. In the latter case, that novelty seeking reward gets switched to a circular feedback rewarding the obsession. Ever heard Yudowsky talk about having your mind reprogrammed so that you like to do something that would otherwise bore you? That's pretty much it, except without the transhumanist tech.
Or, conversely, I could be full of it.
I write shittonnes, and it's how I want to ultimately make my coin. I know though, I need to take breaks from it because otherwise, it's just not fun, and I need to take a few weeks away from it.
Quote from: Guru Quixote on June 10, 2012, 04:38:44 AM
I think she is a phone cartomancer.
!
On top of that being cool, I have learned a new word.
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 09, 2012, 09:51:50 PM
I don't buy into that "sex and cash" theory AT ALL. I know too many people who make a living doing what they love; dichotomizing it is simplistic binary bullshit.
This is interesting. I might reevaluate the way I've thought around a few things.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 10, 2012, 04:40:36 AM
Quote from: Guru Quixote on June 10, 2012, 04:38:44 AM
I think she is a phone cartomancer.
!
On top of that being cool, I have learned a new word.
For some reason, it makes my day that cartomancer is new to you.
Quote from: Guru Quixote on June 10, 2012, 04:43:35 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 10, 2012, 04:40:36 AM
Quote from: Guru Quixote on June 10, 2012, 04:38:44 AM
I think she is a phone cartomancer.
!
On top of that being cool, I have learned a new word.
For some reason, it makes my day that cartomancer is new to you.
Oh it's not.
But I was all like WTF is a 'phone'?
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 10, 2012, 04:49:18 AM
Quote from: Guru Quixote on June 10, 2012, 04:43:35 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 10, 2012, 04:40:36 AM
Quote from: Guru Quixote on June 10, 2012, 04:38:44 AM
I think she is a phone cartomancer.
!
On top of that being cool, I have learned a new word.
For some reason, it makes my day that cartomancer is new to you.
Oh it's not.
But I was all like WTF is a 'phone'?
FUCKING UPSIDEDOWN PEOPLE!!!!!!!! :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!:
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 10, 2012, 04:33:37 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 09, 2012, 06:11:18 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 09, 2012, 07:54:41 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 09, 2012, 06:54:27 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 09, 2012, 06:43:17 AM
A lot of this sounds like the Sex and Cash (http://gapingvoid.com/2004/03/25/the-sex-cash-theory/)theory I read a few years ago.
That's fucking scary.
If I took a shit job, all anybody wants you for here is nights.
And nights are when I make money.
FUCK.
Scary why? What's the problem with timing?
I get a lot of calls at night compared to daytime.
If I took a regular job, I'd lose customers.
It's an "either/or thing", not a "both".
I'm guessing you're talking about the impact of taking on conventional work on top of your current creative work?
I'm really sorry Spags (if that a good shorthand for your handle?), but I'm not familiar with the context here, of what you do, what the calls are for etc. Could you fill me in?
Spags works. :)
I'm on a couple of those psychic phone lines. I read cards. I always liked cards, I get to work from home or wherever I happen to be, and if I need an occasional night off I don't have to listen to any ass-chewing. Sometimes the money is decent and sometimes it sucks.
If I lived in the city, I could grab some kind of little office gig in the daytime, I could work psychic fairs, there would be a lot of little things to supplement my income. But there's nothing available in the town where I live but retail and factory work and everybody wants days, they have kids, they want to go out at night, etc. If I was off the phone lines, say, five nights a week, all my regulars would drift away and start calling somebody else.
The obvious solution is to move someplace that doesn't suck (Austin comes to mind, I can walk around there without the yahoos looking at me like a turd in a punchbowl) but I can never *quite* get the cash together to pull this off. So I'm kind of hanging fire and plotting my escape. It'll come, I just don't know when or how yet.
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 10, 2012, 02:45:37 AM
throw a wrench in the system until it breaks, either in the form of burnout, or in the form of obsession. In the latter case, that novelty seeking reward gets switched to a circular feedback rewarding the obsession. Ever heard Yudowsky talk about having your mind reprogrammed so that you like to do something that would otherwise bore you? That's pretty much it, except without the transhumanist tech.
Or, conversely, I could be full of it.
It's interesting... You've phrased something negatively that I think of as a positive shift in perspective. Recently, I've been seeing things more and more as boundless, every day, event, and person completely unique. This helps me enjoy my otherwise repetitive job, school, and etc. I don't, however, feel that this is a delusion cast over the boring reality. I feel that I'm seeing it the way it really is.
Secondly, the creative activities ("arts") I enjoy inherently demand/involve constant newness/innovation, so to take part in them every moment of every day can never get old.
Now apply this fact about art, to everyday life. That's how I've been seeing it.
Or, conversely, I could be full of it.
Quote from: Epimetheus on June 10, 2012, 06:07:11 AM
It's interesting... You've phrased something negatively that I think of as a positive shift in perspective. Recently, I've been seeing things more and more as boundless, every day, event, and person completely unique. This helps me enjoy my otherwise repetitive job, school, and etc. I don't, however, feel that this is a delusion cast over the boring reality. I feel that I'm seeing it the way it really is.
Secondly, the creative activities ("arts") I enjoy inherently demand/involve constant newness/innovation, so to take part in them every moment of every day can never get old.
Now apply this fact about art, to everyday life. That's how I've been seeing it.
Or, conversely, I could be full of it.
Disagree, but it's only a slight distinction. You can't see reality the way it is but, if you accept this, then it becomes a matter of choosing to see it however suits. Yeah, sure, Don Quixote and the barstool applies but there's a lot of wiggle room in there. Lot of people seem to be really down about "the way things are" and what they're really talking about is their impression or opinion of the way things are.
My problem (if you want to call it that) is I never really found anything I'd rather be doing. So I looked at what I was good at - talking to computers. And I got a job doing that. Because I'm mindfuckingly good at talking to computers. It's an easy life but it's boring as shit. So my working week is usually split into an hour or so working my silicon alchemy and 38 hours, bored out my skull, surfing the net and dreaming about being out in the wilderness with my kayak.
It was when I realised this that the road ahead got a bit clearer - how about 38 hours a week, out in the wilderness with my kayak and maybe an hour or so reminiscing about talking to computers and how boring my life was back then. There's folks pay top dollar for a good tourguide/coach and, short of gaining a few certificates and shit, I'm already there. It'll take me a couple of years to get the papers, in the meantime I can coast by, making the most of the boring shit and counting down the days.
Congrats, man, I hope that all works out and you're having a blast on the daily.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 10, 2012, 08:15:55 AM
Disagree, but it's only a slight distinction. You can't see reality the way it is but, if you accept this, then it becomes a matter of choosing to see it however suits. Yeah, sure, Don Quixote and the barstool applies but there's a lot of wiggle room in there. Lot of people seem to be really down about "the way things are" and what they're really talking about is their impression or opinion of the way things are.
Okay, I don't have a problem with changing my phrasing to: it's just my impression. But I just want to make it clear, then, that saying that it's actually boring is just a personal impression. Basically, I disagree with Kai's notion that enjoying something that seems boring is some kind of self-delusion.
Quote from: Epimetheus on June 10, 2012, 08:23:01 AM
Congrats, man, I hope that all works out and you're having a blast on the daily.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 10, 2012, 08:15:55 AM
Disagree, but it's only a slight distinction. You can't see reality the way it is but, if you accept this, then it becomes a matter of choosing to see it however suits. Yeah, sure, Don Quixote and the barstool applies but there's a lot of wiggle room in there. Lot of people seem to be really down about "the way things are" and what they're really talking about is their impression or opinion of the way things are.
Okay, I don't have a problem with changing my phrasing to: it's just my impression. But I just want to make it clear, then, that saying that it's actually boring is just a personal impression. Basically, I disagree with Kai's notion that enjoying something that seems boring is some kind of self-delusion.
Yeah, you got me there. I know this and sometimes I can even turn it around and get into what I'm doing but more and more lately I just can't be arsed.
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 10, 2012, 02:45:37 AM
Quote from: Epimetheus on June 09, 2012, 08:13:48 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 09, 2012, 12:56:09 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 08, 2012, 10:41:59 PM
That's a really good point. I was trying to think about the rare few who have jobs doing what they love-- and you nailed it. Even when I have an entire day to write, mix, or play music- which are things I can lose myself in for hours- it isn't self-sustainable. I have to walk away at a certain point. Even passions have their limits.
It's not sustainable. Even if you are able to do it and not burn out, that's probably because you have an obsession. And obsessions generally lead to worse things than burn out; I can recover from burn out with some rest, but not so easily from the inevitable psychological addiction within extended obsession.
Wait, are you guys talking about something more than just simple exhaustion? I can understand getting worn out from doing a lot of what you love, just because any activity consumes energy, but as far as getting to a point where you don't want to do it any more (temporarily) - not sure I'm with you on that.
Does that mean I'm obsessed?
More than simple exhaustion, yes. If you've ever experienced burnout, you get the general idea. The human mind seeks novelty. Doing the same things over and over, no matter how much your initial passion, will throw a wrench in the system until it breaks, either in the form of burnout, or in the form of obsession. In the latter case, that novelty seeking reward gets switched to a circular feedback rewarding the obsession. Ever heard Yudowsky talk about having your mind reprogrammed so that you like to do something that would otherwise bore you? That's pretty much it, except without the transhumanist tech.
Or, conversely, I could be full of it.
Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.
Also: Missed Coyote's post earlier. Yep - DING DING DING. :)
But AMB, we all know that your obsession with your Fairies is unhealthy. Those things are vicious and nasty, and do no good for society. You need to quit this thing, AMB. We're all here with you.
Oh no, the Fairies are for you guys. :lol:
I just read cards: "Lilies + Mice, STD's! HAR HAR!"
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 10, 2012, 08:41:36 AM
Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.
Umm, didn't that guy OD and die young?
Quote from: VERBL on June 10, 2012, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 10, 2012, 08:41:36 AM
Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.
Umm, didn't that guy OD and die young?
Stunning proof that Jimi Hendrix's obsession with his guitar was a terrible thing and eventually killed him.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 10, 2012, 08:41:36 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 10, 2012, 02:45:37 AM
Quote from: Epimetheus on June 09, 2012, 08:13:48 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 09, 2012, 12:56:09 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 08, 2012, 10:41:59 PM
That's a really good point. I was trying to think about the rare few who have jobs doing what they love-- and you nailed it. Even when I have an entire day to write, mix, or play music- which are things I can lose myself in for hours- it isn't self-sustainable. I have to walk away at a certain point. Even passions have their limits.
It's not sustainable. Even if you are able to do it and not burn out, that's probably because you have an obsession. And obsessions generally lead to worse things than burn out; I can recover from burn out with some rest, but not so easily from the inevitable psychological addiction within extended obsession.
Wait, are you guys talking about something more than just simple exhaustion? I can understand getting worn out from doing a lot of what you love, just because any activity consumes energy, but as far as getting to a point where you don't want to do it any more (temporarily) - not sure I'm with you on that.
Does that mean I'm obsessed?
More than simple exhaustion, yes. If you've ever experienced burnout, you get the general idea. The human mind seeks novelty. Doing the same things over and over, no matter how much your initial passion, will throw a wrench in the system until it breaks, either in the form of burnout, or in the form of obsession. In the latter case, that novelty seeking reward gets switched to a circular feedback rewarding the obsession. Ever heard Yudowsky talk about having your mind reprogrammed so that you like to do something that would otherwise bore you? That's pretty much it, except without the transhumanist tech.
Or, conversely, I could be full of it.
Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.
I don't think it is, but the word "obsession" has strong negative connotations that people will get hung up on.
"Passion" is closer to the idea of a positive obsession, I think.
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 09, 2012, 09:51:50 PM
I don't buy into that "sex and cash" theory AT ALL. I know too many people who make a living doing what they love; dichotomizing it is simplistic binary bullshit.
I don't know, especially these days, a lot of people kind of have to accept shitty jobs or not eat. I don't think it needs to be so black and white, but there's something to it. You have to pay the bills, but you shouldn't give up on what you're passionate about. Or do we have different interpretations?
The main credible caution that I've heard about doing what you're passionate about for money wasn't the "Sex and Cash" idea, it's an idea I read in a psychology textbook. Yes, I know, but still a bit more credible than a cartoonist's personal experience.
Basically, if you already do something for an intrinsic purpose and feel rewarded merely by doing it, what studies have found is that people have a tendency to feel that the external reward of money replaces the enjoyment they got out of just doing it. But clearly this isn't the case in a number of situations, as you've pointed out Nigel, and of course psychologists don't know really know why that seems to effect some people and not others.
I can try and dig that study up for greater scrutiny if anyone's interested.
Quote from: Net on June 10, 2012, 02:48:56 PM
Quote from: VERBL on June 10, 2012, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 10, 2012, 08:41:36 AM
Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.
Umm, didn't that guy OD and die young?
Stunning proof that Jimi Hendrix's obsession with his guitar was a terrible thing and eventually killed him.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
QuoteI don't think it is, but the word "obsession" has strong negative connotations that people will get hung up on.
"Passion" is closer to the idea of a positive obsession, I think.
Good point.
I'm wondering where the line is, though. Jimi could be said to have a passion because he succeeded, but he was the same person when he was younger and broke. I imagine there were people saying at some point that he was no good for anything, all he wanted to do was play guitar, couldn't hold a regular job, etc. Like a person is considered to have a pathology until they make a shit-ton of money at it, no matter how happy they are doing it.
And yes, if you could dig up the study, it would be awesome.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 10, 2012, 01:58:58 AM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 09, 2012, 09:51:50 PM
I don't buy into that "sex and cash" theory AT ALL. I know too many people who make a living doing what they love; dichotomizing it is simplistic binary bullshit.
My last career change, I asked myself, what do I love doing so much that I think about it all the time and have been doing it in my spare time whenever I have a chance for years? The answer was, glass. So I spent the next ten years immersed in glass. Everything was about glass, not 40 hours a week, but probably over 90 hours a week. When the market tanked and I started to burn out (not on the glass, but on the discouragement) I realized I needed to do something else, at first I was going to go to school for chemistry, because so much of what I know about glass is chemistry and I could maybe get a job as a batch chemist. But then I asked myself, what do I geek out about in my spare time? What do I fucking love so much that I read about it even though it has minimal practical application in my life? What's the thing that my friends think I'm fucking weird for being so into? Oh goddamn right, irrational human behavior and how it impacts the spread of dysfunction and disease!
And you disgusting freaks will never, ever stop doing shit that is completely contrary to your own best interests, so there will ALWAYS be new and novel horrible things to try to wrap my head around. I've never been so excited about anything in my life, except maybe really good sushi.
I like this. A lot.
And I know some people who just do art, or music, or whatever. No day job waiting tables. Nigel has the correct motorcycle AGAIN.
Just because not everyone has found a way to do it doesn't mean it's impossible.
Thanks! I also think there is lots of gray area... it's not simply a matter of either you turn your passion into your career or you work a job you hate. There are so many options in between. One of the most phenomenal artists I know is also passionate about chemistry. I know an amazing poet who just got his MSW because he wants to provide counseling for alienated indigenous people. Many people have this binary idea, this notion that great people are passionate only about one thing; in my experience, great people are passionate about
everything. They may become known for only one thing, because that is the one passion that had great results. So, my opinion is that if you can't or won't make your art into your career, then find something else you also love, and do that. Maintain your passions, and don't make excuses for letting them go. Most importantly, do what you feel passionate about, and be passionate in everything you do.
Quote from: Net on June 10, 2012, 03:33:27 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 09, 2012, 09:51:50 PM
I don't buy into that "sex and cash" theory AT ALL. I know too many people who make a living doing what they love; dichotomizing it is simplistic binary bullshit.
I don't know, especially these days, a lot of people kind of have to accept shitty jobs or not eat. I don't think it needs to be so black and white, but there's something to it. You have to pay the bills, but you shouldn't give up on what you're passionate about. Or do we have different interpretations?
The main credible caution that I've heard about doing what you're passionate about for money wasn't the "Sex and Cash" idea, it's an idea I read in a psychology textbook. Yes, I know, but still a bit more credible than a cartoonist's personal experience.
Basically, if you already do something for an intrinsic purpose and feel rewarded merely by doing it, what studies have found is that people have a tendency to feel that the external reward of money replaces the enjoyment they got out of just doing it. But clearly this isn't the case in a number of situations, as you've pointed out Nigel, and of course psychologists don't know really know why that seems to effect some people and not others.
I can try and dig that study up for greater scrutiny if anyone's interested.
People very, very often have to take work they hate in order to live, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the "sex or cash" dichotomizing; work is not inherently binary, and in my opinion, viewing it in such overly simplified black and white terms is juvenile, in the sense of being undeveloped. Our society has created an incredibly dysfunctional, alienating work experience for the majority of people, but that is not the universal definition of work, nor even a particularly useful one.
I am familiar with the idea that monetizing something one does for enjoyment can strip the doer of their enjoyment, but from a sociological perspective the opposite seems to be true. When people are alienated from their work, it has an impact on their enjoyment of life and even their connection to their community.
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 10, 2012, 05:53:48 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 10, 2012, 01:58:58 AM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 09, 2012, 09:51:50 PM
I don't buy into that "sex and cash" theory AT ALL. I know too many people who make a living doing what they love; dichotomizing it is simplistic binary bullshit.
My last career change, I asked myself, what do I love doing so much that I think about it all the time and have been doing it in my spare time whenever I have a chance for years? The answer was, glass. So I spent the next ten years immersed in glass. Everything was about glass, not 40 hours a week, but probably over 90 hours a week. When the market tanked and I started to burn out (not on the glass, but on the discouragement) I realized I needed to do something else, at first I was going to go to school for chemistry, because so much of what I know about glass is chemistry and I could maybe get a job as a batch chemist. But then I asked myself, what do I geek out about in my spare time? What do I fucking love so much that I read about it even though it has minimal practical application in my life? What's the thing that my friends think I'm fucking weird for being so into? Oh goddamn right, irrational human behavior and how it impacts the spread of dysfunction and disease!
And you disgusting freaks will never, ever stop doing shit that is completely contrary to your own best interests, so there will ALWAYS be new and novel horrible things to try to wrap my head around. I've never been so excited about anything in my life, except maybe really good sushi.
I like this. A lot.
And I know some people who just do art, or music, or whatever. No day job waiting tables. Nigel has the correct motorcycle AGAIN.
Just because not everyone has found a way to do it doesn't mean it's impossible.
Thanks! I also think there is lots of gray area... it's not simply a matter of either you turn your passion into your career or you work a job you hate. There are so many options in between. One of the most phenomenal artists I know is also passionate about chemistry. I know an amazing poet who just got his MSW because he wants to provide counseling for alienated indigenous people. Many people have this binary idea, this notion that great people are passionate only about one thing; in my experience, great people are passionate about everything. They may become known for only one thing, because that is the one passion that had great results. So, my opinion is that if you can't or won't make your art into your career, then find something else you also love, and do that. Maintain your passions, and don't make excuses for letting them go. Most importantly, do what you feel passionate about, and be passionate in everything you do.
Of course! The idea that people can only have one passion is like saying they can only love one person, ever.
Quote from: VERBL on June 10, 2012, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 10, 2012, 08:41:36 AM
Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.
Umm, didn't that guy OD and die young?
Yep, on sleeping pills that he took to go to sleep. Not as a suicide or even as an accident with recreational drugs.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/18/newsid_3528000/3528692.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/18/newsid_3528000/3528692.stm)
Not really related to his passion and his approach to guitar playing.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 10, 2012, 09:33:28 PM
Quote from: VERBL on June 10, 2012, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 10, 2012, 08:41:36 AM
Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.
Umm, didn't that guy OD and die young?
Yep, on sleeping pills that he took to go to sleep. Not as a suicide or even as an accident with recreational drugs.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/18/newsid_3528000/3528692.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/18/newsid_3528000/3528692.stm)
Not really related to his passion and his approach to guitar playing.
Ah. Didn't realize that.
Anyway, the point was that his lifestyle wasn't necessarily something to envy or imitate... And I personally consider sleeping pills a big glaring no-no (and I've had sleep issues for as long as I can remember myself), but I guess I don't really know much about how he died and shouldn't judge him by it.
Quote from: VERBL on June 10, 2012, 09:46:00 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 10, 2012, 09:33:28 PM
Quote from: VERBL on June 10, 2012, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 10, 2012, 08:41:36 AM
Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.
Umm, didn't that guy OD and die young?
Yep, on sleeping pills that he took to go to sleep. Not as a suicide or even as an accident with recreational drugs.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/18/newsid_3528000/3528692.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/18/newsid_3528000/3528692.stm)
Not really related to his passion and his approach to guitar playing.
Ah. Didn't realize that.
Anyway, the point was that his lifestyle wasn't necessarily something to envy or imitate... And I personally consider sleeping pills a big glaring no-no (and I've had sleep issues for as long as I can remember myself), but I guess I don't really know much about how he died and shouldn't judge him by it.
It was 1970. Sleeping pills, tranquilizers, amphetamines, etc. were a lot more widely prescribed. It was a matter or going to the doctor and saying "I can't sleep/I'm a nervous wreck/I want to lose weight/whatever". Virtually everybody had that stuff in the house.
I don't try to emulate Hendrix because I know I can never BE Hendrix, not because he OD'ed.
Quote from: VERBL on June 10, 2012, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 10, 2012, 08:41:36 AM
Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.
Umm, didn't that guy OD and die young?
Yep, one of the founding members of the 27 Club.
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 01:51:55 AM
Quote from: VERBL on June 10, 2012, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 10, 2012, 08:41:36 AM
Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.
Umm, didn't that guy OD and die young?
Yep, one of the founding members of the 27 Club.
"The 27 Club" is a concept equalled in retardation only by "IF YUO PLAY RECORDS BACKWARDS YUO CAN HEAR SATAN"
It isn't a concept, it's an observation. And obviously there were very unique circumstances in the lives and deaths of the members, but there are some commonalities too.
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 02:35:49 AM
It isn't a concept, it's an observation. And obviously there were very unique circumstances in the lives and deaths of the members, but there are some commonalities too.
Reverend, I think your opinion of drugs has colored everything to such a degree that it is the rose tinted glasses through which you view the universe.
It's almost as if you are a conspiracy theorist.
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 02:35:49 AM
It isn't a concept, it's an observation. And obviously there were very unique circumstances in the lives and deaths of the members, but there are some commonalities too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27_Club
Hendrix isn't a "founding member":
Alexandre Levy
January 17, 1892
Unknown
Composer, pianist and conductor
27 years, 98 days
Louis Chauvin
March 26, 1908
Neurosyphilitic sclerosis
Ragtime musician
27 years, 13 days
Robert Johnson
August 16, 1938
Unknown, but typically attributed to strychnine poisoning
Blues singer and musician who recorded a very famous and influential set of 29 songs.
27 years, 100 days
Nat Jaffe
August 5, 1945
Complications from high blood pressure
Swing jazz pianist
27 years, 216 days
&c., &c. with varying causes of death.
SO: There's no common cause of death for all these people
AND: There are who knows how many musicians who died at ages other than 27, or have passed 27 and are still living, or who will live beyond 27
SO: "27 Club" is retarded. It's along the lines of all those "clues" on Beatles albums that people interpreted as Paul McCartney being dead and replaced by a lookalike. Connections where there are no connections.
Idiot.
So it's just the fucking laws of five.
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 11, 2012, 03:30:14 AM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 02:35:49 AM
It isn't a concept, it's an observation. And obviously there were very unique circumstances in the lives and deaths of the members, but there are some commonalities too.
Reverend, I think your opinion of drugs has colored everything to such a degree that it is the rose tinted glasses through which you view the universe.
It's almost as if you are a conspiracy theorist.
"Almost?" :lulz:
Quote from: Guru Quixote on June 11, 2012, 03:33:05 AM
So it's just the fucking laws of five.
Precisely.
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 11, 2012, 03:30:14 AM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 02:35:49 AM
It isn't a concept, it's an observation. And obviously there were very unique circumstances in the lives and deaths of the members, but there are some commonalities too.
Reverend, I think your opinion of drugs has colored everything to such a degree that it is the rose tinted glasses through which you view the universe.
It's almost as if you are a conspiracy theorist.
You've made a bit of a leap with that assumption. Need I remind folks that Cobain died of a shotgun blast to the head, not drugs. The commonalities I speak of are not drugs, it is issues of emotional well being, at least with some of the more infamous " members"
And, yes of course it is Law of Fives.
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 03:41:59 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 11, 2012, 03:30:14 AM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 02:35:49 AM
It isn't a concept, it's an observation. And obviously there were very unique circumstances in the lives and deaths of the members, but there are some commonalities too.
Reverend, I think your opinion of drugs has colored everything to such a degree that it is the rose tinted glasses through which you view the universe.
It's almost as if you are a conspiracy theorist.
You've made a bit of a leap with that assumption. Need I remind folks that Cobain died of a shotgun blast to the head, not drugs. The commonalities I speak of are not drugs, it is issues of emotional well being, at least with some of the more infamous " members"
And, yes of course it is Law of Fives.
(http://www.theesportsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/backpedaling34.jpg)
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 11, 2012, 03:51:40 AM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 03:41:59 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 11, 2012, 03:30:14 AM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 02:35:49 AM
It isn't a concept, it's an observation. And obviously there were very unique circumstances in the lives and deaths of the members, but there are some commonalities too.
Reverend, I think your opinion of drugs has colored everything to such a degree that it is the rose tinted glasses through which you view the universe.
It's almost as if you are a conspiracy theorist.
You've made a bit of a leap with that assumption. Need I remind folks that Cobain died of a shotgun blast to the head, not drugs. The commonalities I speak of are not drugs, it is issues of emotional well being, at least with some of the more infamous " members"
And, yes of course it is Law of Fives.
(http://www.theesportsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/backpedaling34.jpg)
:lulz:
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 03:41:59 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 11, 2012, 03:30:14 AM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 02:35:49 AM
It isn't a concept, it's an observation. And obviously there were very unique circumstances in the lives and deaths of the members, but there are some commonalities too.
Reverend, I think your opinion of drugs has colored everything to such a degree that it is the rose tinted glasses through which you view the universe.
It's almost as if you are a conspiracy theorist.
You've made a bit of a leap with that assumption. Need I remind folks that Cobain died of a shotgun blast to the head, not drugs. The commonalities I speak of are not drugs, it is issues of emotional well being, at least with some of the more infamous " members"
And, yes of course it is Law of Fives.
Reverend, law of fives is another name for cognitive bias. If you are not familiar, this is the concept that people choose the observations that fit their particular worldview, and discard observations which would dismiss such a worldview.
For a person to understand what they are thinking and saying is ruled by cognitive bias, to even voice it as such, and then not actually change their attitudes and behavior, this is hypocrisy.
The follow up to discovering cognitive bias isn't continuing in it, but rather /stopping/.
I dunno, Kai. Now that I can see the Fnords, I kinda like 'em.
Shoot me if I'm missing something, but escaping cognitive bias completely is impossible, and when it comes to something basically insignificant like the "27 club" stuff, who the hell cares?
Quote from: VERBL on June 11, 2012, 07:09:33 AM
I dunno, Kai. Now that I can see the Fnords, I kinda like 'em.
Shoot me if I'm missing something, but escaping cognitive bias completely is impossible, and when it comes to something basically insignificant like the "27 club" stuff, who the hell cares?
The idea, when you discover cognitive bias, is to make an effort to weed it out. Even if it's just some stupid shit like "The 27 Club".
"Musicians (or people with what RWHN considers to be "issues") often die at 27" is the same thinking style as "(insert group here) often steal".
No it's fucking not the same thing.
And the idea is to make up your own fucking mind, not to bow to the moral edicts of strangers online.
Quote from: VERBL on June 11, 2012, 08:00:44 AM
No it's fucking not the same thing.
And the idea is to make up your own fucking mind, not to bow to the moral edicts of strangers online.
In fact, if a stranger issues a moral edict that I agree with, I will show him that I make up my own fucking mind by pulling the wool over my own fucking eyes, inserting my thumbs into my ears, and wiggling my fingers fucking profusely.
Quote from: VERBL on June 11, 2012, 08:00:44 AM
No it's fucking not the same thing.
And the idea is to make up your own fucking mind, not to bow to the moral edicts of strangers online.
I see that you've made up your own mind that cognitive bias that causes you to make a sweeping generalization about a whole group of people based on the actions of a few is somehow "fucking not the same thing" as cognitive bias that causes you to make a sweeping generalization about some other whole group of people based on the actions of a few.
TFYS implies
thinking.
Quote from: Net on June 11, 2012, 08:09:43 AM
Quote from: VERBL on June 11, 2012, 08:00:44 AM
No it's fucking not the same thing.
And the idea is to make up your own fucking mind, not to bow to the moral edicts of strangers online.
In fact, if a stranger issues a moral edict that I agree with, I will show him that I make up my own fucking mind by pulling the wool over my own fucking eyes, inserting my thumbs into my ears, and wiggling my fingers fucking profusely.
LALALALA NOT LISTENING! BOW TO YOUR OWN FUCKING EDICTS! :lulz:
Quote from: Net on June 11, 2012, 08:09:43 AM
Quote from: VERBL on June 11, 2012, 08:00:44 AM
No it's fucking not the same thing.
And the idea is to make up your own fucking mind, not to bow to the moral edicts of strangers online.
In fact, if a stranger issues a moral edict that I agree with, I will show him that I make up my own fucking mind by pulling the wool over my own fucking eyes, inserting my thumbs into my ears, and wiggling my fingers fucking profusely.
See, Net, I dunno why you and I don't get along all the time. I was going to make a similar post, with more profanity and use of the word "retard", and then I decided against it, only to find you posted this. The fack, man? :lulz:
Quote from: Phox, Mistress of Many Names on June 11, 2012, 08:18:46 AM
Quote from: Net on June 11, 2012, 08:09:43 AM
Quote from: VERBL on June 11, 2012, 08:00:44 AM
No it's fucking not the same thing.
And the idea is to make up your own fucking mind, not to bow to the moral edicts of strangers online.
In fact, if a stranger issues a moral edict that I agree with, I will show him that I make up my own fucking mind by pulling the wool over my own fucking eyes, inserting my thumbs into my ears, and wiggling my fingers fucking profusely.
See, Net, I dunno why you and I don't get along all the time. I was going to make a similar post, with more profanity and use of the word "retard", and then I decided against it, only to find you posted this. The fack, man? :lulz:
I don't know either, Phox, I've always liked you, even when you're disagreeing with me.
Quote from: Net on June 11, 2012, 08:23:59 AM
Quote from: Phox, Mistress of Many Names on June 11, 2012, 08:18:46 AM
Quote from: Net on June 11, 2012, 08:09:43 AM
Quote from: VERBL on June 11, 2012, 08:00:44 AM
No it's fucking not the same thing.
And the idea is to make up your own fucking mind, not to bow to the moral edicts of strangers online.
In fact, if a stranger issues a moral edict that I agree with, I will show him that I make up my own fucking mind by pulling the wool over my own fucking eyes, inserting my thumbs into my ears, and wiggling my fingers fucking profusely.
See, Net, I dunno why you and I don't get along all the time. I was going to make a similar post, with more profanity and use of the word "retard", and then I decided against it, only to find you posted this. The fack, man? :lulz:
I don't know either, Phox, I've always liked you, even when you're disagreeing with me.
I know, man! I don't have a problem with you either! We should be pals. :lol:
Quote from: Phox, Mistress of Many Names on June 11, 2012, 08:30:24 AM
Quote from: Net on June 11, 2012, 08:23:59 AM
Quote from: Phox, Mistress of Many Names on June 11, 2012, 08:18:46 AM
Quote from: Net on June 11, 2012, 08:09:43 AM
Quote from: VERBL on June 11, 2012, 08:00:44 AM
No it's fucking not the same thing.
And the idea is to make up your own fucking mind, not to bow to the moral edicts of strangers online.
In fact, if a stranger issues a moral edict that I agree with, I will show him that I make up my own fucking mind by pulling the wool over my own fucking eyes, inserting my thumbs into my ears, and wiggling my fingers fucking profusely.
See, Net, I dunno why you and I don't get along all the time. I was going to make a similar post, with more profanity and use of the word "retard", and then I decided against it, only to find you posted this. The fack, man? :lulz:
I don't know either, Phox, I've always liked you, even when you're disagreeing with me.
I know, man! I don't have a problem with you either! We should be pals. :lol:
:awesome:
Quote from: VERBL on June 11, 2012, 07:09:33 AM
I dunno, Kai. Now that I can see the Fnords, I kinda like 'em.
Shoot me if I'm missing something, but escaping cognitive bias completely is impossible, and when it comes to something basically insignificant like the "27 club" stuff, who the hell cares?
Of course its impossible to escape it completely. We're human beings with a brain wired to find connections. Its how we survived to escape the trees, the bears, the tigers, the lions and the dude named Ook from the tribe next door.
If we try to catch instances where we're exhibiting cognitive bias and try to resolve it... then its more likely that we will 'train our brain' to be better at catching cognitive bias and resolving it. If we don't recognize it, we're likely to be running around writing 23, Bilderburg and Illuminati all over our walls while wearing tin foil hats.
All that being said there's nothing wrong (IMO) with utilizing popular social memes. If we understand that musicians aren't more likely to die at the age of 27 than anyone else, we can reference 'The 27 Club' as a meme, without the confusion of cognitive bias. "He's in the 27 Club" is true in some sense. Of course its also false in some sense and meaningless in some sense... like most of the patterns we humans 'recognize'.
As for 'TFY,S!', its all about your brain. After all, we live in this world of existing things, ordering them and disordering them for fun until Eris calls us home for dinner. If we understand that we're just ordering and disordering for fun, then I don't think its unhealthy. If, on the other hand, we really really really believe the ordering for realz... well you're likely to turn into a reporter for Infowars.
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 11, 2012, 05:07:02 AM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 03:41:59 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 11, 2012, 03:30:14 AM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 02:35:49 AM
It isn't a concept, it's an observation. And obviously there were very unique circumstances in the lives and deaths of the members, but there are some commonalities too.
Reverend, I think your opinion of drugs has colored everything to such a degree that it is the rose tinted glasses through which you view the universe.
It's almost as if you are a conspiracy theorist.
You've made a bit of a leap with that assumption. Need I remind folks that Cobain died of a shotgun blast to the head, not drugs. The commonalities I speak of are not drugs, it is issues of emotional well being, at least with some of the more infamous " members"
And, yes of course it is Law of Fives.
Reverend, law of fives is another name for cognitive bias. If you are not familiar, this is the concept that people choose the observations that fit their particular worldview, and discard observations which would dismiss such a worldview.
For a person to understand what they are thinking and saying is ruled by cognitive bias, to even voice it as such, and then not actually change their attitudes and behavior, this is hypocrisy.
The follow up to discovering cognitive bias isn't continuing in it, but rather /stopping/.
I know what the fucking law of fives is, Maybe I'm being too subtle and I need to say "I'm not being entirely serious in this stupid Apple Talk thread."
Jesus!
All I was attempting to say was it was an interesting point of conversation. Obviously most musicians, even troubled ones, live past 27. Duh! But it is interesting to discuss those that didn't.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 11, 2012, 11:05:44 AM
Quote from: VERBL on June 11, 2012, 07:09:33 AM
I dunno, Kai. Now that I can see the Fnords, I kinda like 'em.
Shoot me if I'm missing something, but escaping cognitive bias completely is impossible, and when it comes to something basically insignificant like the "27 club" stuff, who the hell cares?
Of course its impossible to escape it completely. We're human beings with a brain wired to find connections. Its how we survived to escape the trees, the bears, the tigers, the lions and the dude named Ook from the tribe next door.
If we try to catch instances where we're exhibiting cognitive bias and try to resolve it... then its more likely that we will 'train our brain' to be better at catching cognitive bias and resolving it. If we don't recognize it, we're likely to be running around writing 23, Bilderburg and Illuminati all over our walls while wearing tin foil hats.
All that being said there's nothing wrong (IMO) with utilizing popular social memes. If we understand that musicians aren't more likely to die at the age of 27 than anyone else, we can reference 'The 27 Club' as a meme, without the confusion of cognitive bias. "He's in the 27 Club" is true in some sense. Of course its also false in some sense and meaningless in some sense... like most of the patterns we humans 'recognize'.
As for 'TFY,S!', its all about your brain. After all, we live in this world of existing things, ordering them and disordering them for fun until Eris calls us home for dinner. If we understand that we're just ordering and disordering for fun, then I don't think its unhealthy. If, on the other hand, we really really really believe the ordering for realz... well you're likely to turn into a reporter for Infowars.
This.
Remember PD.COM, all conversations are super serious all of the time!
Yes.
I must have forgotten that in my years of exile... How could I!
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 11:16:07 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 11, 2012, 05:07:02 AM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 03:41:59 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 11, 2012, 03:30:14 AM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 02:35:49 AM
It isn't a concept, it's an observation. And obviously there were very unique circumstances in the lives and deaths of the members, but there are some commonalities too.
Reverend, I think your opinion of drugs has colored everything to such a degree that it is the rose tinted glasses through which you view the universe.
It's almost as if you are a conspiracy theorist.
You've made a bit of a leap with that assumption. Need I remind folks that Cobain died of a shotgun blast to the head, not drugs. The commonalities I speak of are not drugs, it is issues of emotional well being, at least with some of the more infamous " members"
And, yes of course it is Law of Fives.
Reverend, law of fives is another name for cognitive bias. If you are not familiar, this is the concept that people choose the observations that fit their particular worldview, and discard observations which would dismiss such a worldview.
For a person to understand what they are thinking and saying is ruled by cognitive bias, to even voice it as such, and then not actually change their attitudes and behavior, this is hypocrisy.
The follow up to discovering cognitive bias isn't continuing in it, but rather /stopping/.
I know what the fucking law of fives is, Maybe I'm being too subtle and I need to say "I'm not being entirely serious in this stupid Apple Talk thread."
Jesus!
All I was attempting to say was it was an interesting point of conversation. Obviously most musicians, even troubled ones, live past 27. Duh! But it is interesting to discuss those that didn't.
"Obviously this idea isn't true, but it's interesting to talk about it as if it was." That's what I got out of that final statement.
Quote"Obviously this idea isn't true, but it's interesting to talk about it as if it was." That's what I got out of that final statement.
Isn't part of identifying illusions being able to enjoy them, being conscious of as much?
Quote"Obviously this idea isn't true, but it's interesting to talk about it as if it was." That's what I got out of that final statement.
It is interesting to talk about these certain, very famous and influential, people who all died at the age of 27. It's watercooler talk. Don't take everything so damned seriously.
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 01:01:00 PM
Remember PD.COM, all conversations are super serious all of the time!
Only until I arrive in them :evil:
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
Quote"Obviously this idea isn't true, but it's interesting to talk about it as if it was." That's what I got out of that final statement.
It is interesting to talk about these certain, very famous and influential, people who all died at the age of 27. It's watercooler talk. Don't take everything so damned seriously.
I'll keep that in mind for your other comments on PD.
Okay then, whatever floats your gravy boat.
So.....everything that happens in Apple Talk is not to be taken seriously ever?
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 11, 2012, 03:35:32 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
Quote"Obviously this idea isn't true, but it's interesting to talk about it as if it was." That's what I got out of that final statement.
It is interesting to talk about these certain, very famous and influential, people who all died at the age of 27. It's watercooler talk. Don't take everything so damned seriously.
I'll keep that in mind for your other comments on PD.
And then Kai was a TGRR Cool Kid Zombie. :horrormirth:
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on June 11, 2012, 01:01:00 PM
Remember PD.COM, all conversations are super serious all of the time!
PD.com: RWHN's best excuse for ridiculing people for cheap kicks!
Quote from: Guru Quixote on June 11, 2012, 08:55:13 PM
So.....everything that happens in Apple Talk is not to be taken seriously ever?
The middle, how does it work?