Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Principia Discussion => Discordia en Espanol => Topic started by: Odibex Grallspice on May 03, 2020, 01:20:37 pm

Title: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 03, 2020, 01:20:37 pm
I'm sure this's been addressed, but I was wondering today about the "gender neutral" language we're supposed to've been using for the past 20 or 30 years, and how that jibes out with Spanish and the other romance languages, where every noun is (seemingly randomly) gendered, i.e., "el" for "male" things and "la" for "female" things, etc? I'm very ignorant in this field so please don't ridicule me.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on May 03, 2020, 03:04:35 pm
I was wondering today about the "gender neutral" language we're supposed to've been using for the past 20 or 30 years,

I don't believe that's actually a thing, although sometimes right-wing morons bring it up as an example of how they're being oppressed.

Quote
please don't ridicule me.
You must be new here.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 04, 2020, 02:01:17 am
I'm very ignorant in this field so please don't ridicule me.

:jihaad:
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: altered on May 04, 2020, 02:47:36 am
I'm very ignorant in this field so please don't ridicule me.

:jihaad:

I would, but I canít. I promised not to shit my pants until after I leave this state. And this is something that can only be responded to with shat pants.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 04, 2020, 10:45:07 am
I don't believe that's actually a thing, although sometimes right-wing morons bring it up as an example of how they're being oppressed.

if you're not aware about it you're a step behind the right-wing morons who at least know of it. I call the person who delivers my dark web drugs as a "carrier", rather than what I did when I was younger, a "mailman". that makes sense to me. on the other hand I'm not going to say "humankind" instead of "mankind" becasue that's not a word

I have a PDF here from NOVA Southeastern University, which advises me to refer to "the common man" as "the average person" or "ordinary people". this kind of thing to me seems technically legit, but I can't be arsed to retrain my language processing.. thing. there's plenty folks who think language has a big role on how we perceive reality, and on the articulation of our societies. a William Burroughs referred to "Language is a virus", and.. even disregarding this perspective, I think it foolish to poo poo the role language plays in a peoples. that said, I, personally, think trying to change what a word means is a most inefficient means of effecting change (for insistence, insisting "racism" means "institutional" or "systemic" racism).

it may not be a top-of-mind, hot button, guaranteed-validation-generating issue, but it's most certainly a thing, one that the right's mocking of doesn't make nonextant. and yes I am new here in that I can view things anew, without the accumulated toxin-baises of someone who has been loitering about the various stratum for some time now. none of this has anything to do with my comment.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 04, 2020, 10:50:02 am
I would, but I canít. I promised not to shit my pants until after I leave this state. And this is something that can only be responded to with shat pants.

would it help if I shat 'em? :sad:
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on May 04, 2020, 02:55:10 pm
I call the person who delivers my dark web drugs as a "carrier", rather than what I did when I was younger, a "mailman".
Oh, that's what you were talking about?  I thought you were starting in on moaning about how no-one is supposed to use "he" or "she" anymore.  Wasn't that Jordan Peterson's schtick?

Frankly, replacing a couple dozen nouns with gender-neutral equivalents simply doesn't strike me as all that significant.  Language changes all the time, and this particular class of changes do not reduce the expressivity of English (ordurous mire of an all-assimilating language that it is), so I don't think it's worth making a fuss about.  Address people in a fashion that seems polite to them, and don't sweat the details.

If you honestly want to know how (or if) this phenomenon affects Spanich speakers, maybe you should look for a forum that specializes in cultural linguistics, rather than an obscure religious cult.

Quote
I can't be arsed to retrain my language processing.. thing.
I'm prone to snap judgments, so I may have to eat my words later?  But I don't think I'm going to like you.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 04, 2020, 03:05:28 pm
I don't believe that's actually a thing, although sometimes right-wing morons bring it up as an example of how they're being oppressed.

if you're not aware about it you're a step behind the right-wing morons who at least know of it. I call the person who delivers my dark web drugs as a "carrier", rather than what I did when I was younger, a "mailman". that makes sense to me. on the other hand I'm not going to say "humankind" instead of "mankind" becasue that's not a word

I have a PDF here from NOVA Southeastern University, which advises me to refer to "the common man" as "the average person" or "ordinary people". this kind of thing to me seems technically legit, but I can't be arsed to retrain my language processing.. thing. there's plenty folks who think language has a big role on how we perceive reality, and on the articulation of our societies. a William Burroughs referred to "Language is a virus", and.. even disregarding this perspective, I think it foolish to poo poo the role language plays in a peoples. that said, I, personally, think trying to change what a word means is a most inefficient means of effecting change (for insistence, insisting "racism" means "institutional" or "systemic" racism).

it may not be a top-of-mind, hot button, guaranteed-validation-generating issue, but it's most certainly a thing, one that the right's mocking of doesn't make nonextant. and yes I am new here in that I can view things anew, without the accumulated toxin-baises of someone who has been loitering about the various stratum for some time now. none of this has anything to do with my comment.

UNNNG
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 04, 2020, 03:21:14 pm
i'm seeing latinx substituted for latina or latino lately.  Seems relevant.

i would think since inanimate objects are unable to formulate opinions about their own identity, one has not choice but to assume their gender.  The inanimate object not only lacks the sentience to disagree, but it can't even have an opinion about it in the first place.

however, i must admit, it is a little odd to me to confer gender to an inanimate object in the first place.  Although if you think in terms of hermetic principles, maybe you believe that every single thing must be either male or female?  if you believed every single thing is either male or female, most items would probably seem more one or the other.  for example a pencil vs a bowl?? 

I wonder - it would be funny if the gender of pants is male, but the gender for pockets is female. . . are hands female or male depending on the owner?  are sexual morays also conferred on inanimate objects?  is it gay to rub two pencils together??

Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: LMNO on May 04, 2020, 04:07:20 pm
is it gay to rub two pencils together??

Yes, but not for the reasons you think.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on May 04, 2020, 05:32:11 pm
is it gay to rub two pencils together??

Yes, but not for the reasons you think.
:lmnuendo:
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Cramulus on May 04, 2020, 06:47:08 pm
i'm seeing latinx substituted for latina or latino lately.  Seems relevant.

i would think since inanimate objects are unable to formulate opinions about their own identity, one has not choice but to assume their gender.  The inanimate object not only lacks the sentience to disagree, but it can't even have an opinion about it in the first place.

however, i must admit, it is a little odd to me to confer gender to an inanimate object in the first place.  Although if you think in terms of hermetic principles, maybe you believe that every single thing must be either male or female?  if you believed every single thing is either male or female, most items would probably seem more one or the other.  for example a pencil vs a bowl?? 

I wonder - it would be funny if the gender of pants is male, but the gender for pockets is female. . . are hands female or male depending on the owner?  are sexual morays also conferred on inanimate objects?  is it gay to rub two pencils together??

From The Awful German Language by Mark Twain:


Quote
...the German genders: a tree is male, its buds are female, its leaves are neuter; horses are sexless, dogs are male, cats are female,óTom-cats included, of course; a personís mouth, neck, bosom, elbows, fingers, nails, feet, and body are of the male sex, and his head is male or neuter according to the word selected to signify it, and not according to the sex of the individual who wears it,

ófor in Germany all the women have either male heads or sexless ones; a personís nose, lips, shoulders, breast, hands, and toes are of the female sex; and his hair, ears, eyes, chin, legs, knees, heart, and conscience havenít any sex at all. The inventor of the language probably got what he knew about a conscience from hearsay.

Now, by the above dissection, the reader will see that in Germany a man may think he is a man, but when he comes to look into the matter closely, he is bound to have his doubts; he finds that in sober truth he is a most ridiculous mixture; and if he ends by trying to comfort himself with the thought that he can at least depend on a third of this mess as being manly and masculine, the humiliating second thought will quickly remind him that in this
respect he is no better off than any woman or cow in the land.

In the German it is true that by some oversight of the inven- tor of the language, a Woman is a female; but a Wife (Weib) is not,ówhich is unfortunate. A Wife, here, has no sex; she is neuter; so, according to the grammar, a fish ishe, his scales are she, but a fishwife is neither. To describe a wife as sexless may be called under-description; that is bad enough, but over-description is surely worse.

A German speaks of an Englishman as the Englšnder; to change the sex, he adds inn, and that stands for Englishwoman,ó Englšnderinn. That seems descriptive enough, but still it is not exact enough for a German; so he precedes the word with that article which indicates that the creature to follow is feminine, and writes it down thus: ďdie Englšnderinn,Ēówhich means ďthe she-English- woman.Ē I consider that that person is over-described.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 04, 2020, 06:57:07 pm
i'm seeing latinx substituted for latina or latino lately.  Seems relevant.

i would think since inanimate objects are unable to formulate opinions about their own identity, one has not choice but to assume their gender.  The inanimate object not only lacks the sentience to disagree, but it can't even have an opinion about it in the first place.

however, i must admit, it is a little odd to me to confer gender to an inanimate object in the first place.  Although if you think in terms of hermetic principles, maybe you believe that every single thing must be either male or female?  if you believed every single thing is either male or female, most items would probably seem more one or the other.  for example a pencil vs a bowl?? 

I wonder - it would be funny if the gender of pants is male, but the gender for pockets is female. . . are hands female or male depending on the owner?  are sexual morays also conferred on inanimate objects?  is it gay to rub two pencils together??

From The Awful German Language by Mark Twain:


Quote
...the German genders: a tree is male, its buds are female, its leaves are neuter; horses are sexless, dogs are male, cats are female,óTom-cats included, of course; a personís mouth, neck, bosom, elbows, fingers, nails, feet, and body are of the male sex, and his head is male or neuter according to the word selected to signify it, and not according to the sex of the individual who wears it,

ófor in Germany all the women have either male heads or sexless ones; a personís nose, lips, shoulders, breast, hands, and toes are of the female sex; and his hair, ears, eyes, chin, legs, knees, heart, and conscience havenít any sex at all. The inventor of the language probably got what he knew about a conscience from hearsay.

Now, by the above dissection, the reader will see that in Germany a man may think he is a man, but when he comes to look into the matter closely, he is bound to have his doubts; he finds that in sober truth he is a most ridiculous mixture; and if he ends by trying to comfort himself with the thought that he can at least depend on a third of this mess as being manly and masculine, the humiliating second thought will quickly remind him that in this
respect he is no better off than any woman or cow in the land.

In the German it is true that by some oversight of the inven- tor of the language, a Woman is a female; but a Wife (Weib) is not,ówhich is unfortunate. A Wife, here, has no sex; she is neuter; so, according to the grammar, a fish ishe, his scales are she, but a fishwife is neither. To describe a wife as sexless may be called under-description; that is bad enough, but over-description is surely worse.

A German speaks of an Englishman as the Englšnder; to change the sex, he adds inn, and that stands for Englishwoman,ó Englšnderinn. That seems descriptive enough, but still it is not exact enough for a German; so he precedes the word with that article which indicates that the creature to follow is feminine, and writes it down thus: ďdie Englšnderinn,Ēówhich means ďthe she-English- woman.Ē I consider that that person is over-described.

more german than german
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: hoopla on May 04, 2020, 09:45:33 pm
I don't believe that's actually a thing, although sometimes right-wing morons bring it up as an example of how they're being oppressed.

if you're not aware about it you're a step behind the right-wing morons who at least know of it. I call the person who delivers my dark web drugs as a "carrier", rather than what I did when I was younger, a "mailman". that makes sense to me. on the other hand I'm not going to say "humankind" instead of "mankind" becasue that's not a word

I have a PDF here from NOVA Southeastern University, which advises me to refer to "the common man" as "the average person" or "ordinary people". this kind of thing to me seems technically legit, but I can't be arsed to retrain my language processing.. thing. there's plenty folks who think language has a big role on how we perceive reality, and on the articulation of our societies. a William Burroughs referred to "Language is a virus", and.. even disregarding this perspective, I think it foolish to poo poo the role language plays in a peoples. that said, I, personally, think trying to change what a word means is a most inefficient means of effecting change (for insistence, insisting "racism" means "institutional" or "systemic" racism).

it may not be a top-of-mind, hot button, guaranteed-validation-generating issue, but it's most certainly a thing, one that the right's mocking of doesn't make nonextant. and yes I am new here in that I can view things anew, without the accumulated toxin-baises of someone who has been loitering about the various stratum for some time now. none of this has anything to do with my comment.

Yeah, Iím detecting a lot beneath the surface here that I donít care for.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 04, 2020, 11:28:26 pm
I don't believe that's actually a thing, although sometimes right-wing morons bring it up as an example of how they're being oppressed.

if you're not aware about it you're a step behind the right-wing morons who at least know of it. I call the person who delivers my dark web drugs as a "carrier", rather than what I did when I was younger, a "mailman". that makes sense to me. on the other hand I'm not going to say "humankind" instead of "mankind" becasue that's not a word

I have a PDF here from NOVA Southeastern University, which advises me to refer to "the common man" as "the average person" or "ordinary people". this kind of thing to me seems technically legit, but I can't be arsed to retrain my language processing.. thing. there's plenty folks who think language has a big role on how we perceive reality, and on the articulation of our societies. a William Burroughs referred to "Language is a virus", and.. even disregarding this perspective, I think it foolish to poo poo the role language plays in a peoples. that said, I, personally, think trying to change what a word means is a most inefficient means of effecting change (for insistence, insisting "racism" means "institutional" or "systemic" racism).

it may not be a top-of-mind, hot button, guaranteed-validation-generating issue, but it's most certainly a thing, one that the right's mocking of doesn't make nonextant. and yes I am new here in that I can view things anew, without the accumulated toxin-baises of someone who has been loitering about the various stratum for some time now. none of this has anything to do with my comment.

Yeah, Iím detecting a lot beneath the surface here that I donít care for.

It's not like we haven't had some experience along these lines.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: hoopla on May 05, 2020, 05:56:49 pm
I don't believe that's actually a thing, although sometimes right-wing morons bring it up as an example of how they're being oppressed.

if you're not aware about it you're a step behind the right-wing morons who at least know of it. I call the person who delivers my dark web drugs as a "carrier", rather than what I did when I was younger, a "mailman". that makes sense to me. on the other hand I'm not going to say "humankind" instead of "mankind" becasue that's not a word

I have a PDF here from NOVA Southeastern University, which advises me to refer to "the common man" as "the average person" or "ordinary people". this kind of thing to me seems technically legit, but I can't be arsed to retrain my language processing.. thing. there's plenty folks who think language has a big role on how we perceive reality, and on the articulation of our societies. a William Burroughs referred to "Language is a virus", and.. even disregarding this perspective, I think it foolish to poo poo the role language plays in a peoples. that said, I, personally, think trying to change what a word means is a most inefficient means of effecting change (for insistence, insisting "racism" means "institutional" or "systemic" racism).

it may not be a top-of-mind, hot button, guaranteed-validation-generating issue, but it's most certainly a thing, one that the right's mocking of doesn't make nonextant. and yes I am new here in that I can view things anew, without the accumulated toxin-baises of someone who has been loitering about the various stratum for some time now. none of this has anything to do with my comment.

Yeah, Iím detecting a lot beneath the surface here that I donít care for.

It's not like we haven't had some experience along these lines.

Exactamundo.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 05, 2020, 08:54:30 pm
i would think since inanimate objects are unable to formulate opinions about their own identity, one has not choice but to assume their gender.  The inanimate object not only lacks the sentience to disagree, but it can't even have an opinion about it in the first place.

yeah, you seem to get it. "gender neutral language" doesn't have squat to do with preferred pronouns. seemed like a pretty fair question, how gender neutral language gibes with this gendered inanimate object thing. it seems like it would be a massive issue to me. I guess this is something all the "romances languages" do, and would include Italian and.. I dunno, it's not for me to say. I didn't go to college or school just a head's up.

the "latinx" thing, I guess that actually does start to address the whole thing. I'll probably be less annoyed by it when I see it now.


but yeah maybe it was inappropriate for me to ask about this on a "Discord in Spanish" subforum. please accept my humble apologies, I surely didn't intend to give anyone vaguely articulated "bad vibes"
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: hoopla on May 05, 2020, 09:03:15 pm
I proudly refuse that humble apology.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 05, 2020, 09:11:10 pm
hey don't ruin it:

"for the fellows who sense there's a "chicken in the henhouse" (?) etc., this is the post I made today before navigating here. talk amount yourselves I guess. maybe shoot it off to Tom Chaudion"

https://imgur.com/e3iQwhS
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: minuspace on May 05, 2020, 09:20:03 pm
Here we discuss how the prelinguistic sexing of objects by cortical canalizations in infants results gender inequality.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: hoopla on May 05, 2020, 09:22:19 pm
hey don't ruin it:

"for the fellows who sense there's a "chicken in the henhouse" (?) etc., this is the post I made today before navigating here. talk amount yourselves I guess. maybe shoot it off to Tom Chaudion"

https://imgur.com/e3iQwhS

Cool. Now I can completely ignore you with a clean conscience.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 05, 2020, 09:34:57 pm
i would think since inanimate objects are unable to formulate opinions about their own identity, one has not choice but to assume their gender.  The inanimate object not only lacks the sentience to disagree, but it can't even have an opinion about it in the first place.

yeah, you seem to get it. "gender neutral language" doesn't have squat to do with preferred pronouns. seemed like a pretty fair question, how gender neutral language gibes with this gendered inanimate object thing. it seems like it would be a massive issue to me. I guess this is something all the "romances languages" do, and would include Italian and.. I dunno, it's not for me to say. I didn't go to college or school just a head's up.

the "latinx" thing, I guess that actually does start to address the whole thing. I'll probably be less annoyed by it when I see it now.


but yeah maybe it was inappropriate for me to ask about this on a "Discord in Spanish" subforum. please accept my humble apologies, I surely didn't intend to give anyone vaguely articulated "bad vibes"

I am sorry that you are bothered by the term "LatinX".  I shall ask all the LatinX people to be more considerate in the future.

I am sorry that you are bothered by the term "racism" being applied to the dominant cultural group.  I shall send a memo to the Blacks, Browns, LGBT, Asians, Jews, and those Zoroastrian fuckers that nobody likes, and we'll see if they can't improve their attitudes.

I am sorry that we're a pack of bastards who take an undue joy in dragging you around by the ankles just because you are above worrying about "the average man" or whether "personhole" is a good replacement for "manhole."

Mostly, though, I am sorry about the lack of sincerity in this post.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 05, 2020, 09:35:53 pm
hey don't ruin it:

"for the fellows who sense there's a "chicken in the henhouse" (?) etc., this is the post I made today before navigating here. talk amount yourselves I guess. maybe shoot it off to Tom Chaudion"

https://imgur.com/e3iQwhS

hey mister, you dropped your tiki torch.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 05, 2020, 10:15:25 pm
hey mister, you dropped your tiki torch.
yes. there's nothing actually wrong with tiki torches besides you seeing 'em a bad context, Tom. if you'd like to launch a thing at me that's great;. I'm not going to address a line of ant ghosts trucking to and fro 'cause they smell pineapple. I don't even know if you have a foreskin friend.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: altered on May 05, 2020, 10:30:44 pm
hey mister, you dropped your tiki torch.
yes. there's nothing actually wrong with tiki torches besides you seeing 'em a bad context, Tom. if you'd like to launch a thing at me that's great;. I'm not going to address a line of ant ghosts trucking to and fro 'cause they smell pineapple. I don't even know if you have a foreskin friend.

Hey, psst, you arenít supposed to say the quiet part out loud. Is that how you got banned from Instagram, I wonder?
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 05, 2020, 10:33:54 pm
Cool. Now I can completely ignore you with a clean conscience.

dude? if you've got a problem w/me kindly find a way to articulate it. otherwise I'm not sure how to address it. are you able to that? or do you believe I'm obligated to guess at your peruvision?

I am sorry that you are bothered by the term "racism" being applied to the dominant cultural group.  I shall send a memo to the Blacks, Browns, LGBT, Asians, Jews, and those Zoroastrian fuckers that nobody likes, and we'll see if they can't improve their attitudes.

I am sorry that we're a pack of bastards who take an undue joy in dragging you around by the ankles just because you are above worrying about "the average man" or whether "personhole" is a good replacement for "manhole."

Mostly, though, I am sorry about the lack of sincerity in this post.

honestly, mate, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and it seems like you're intent on injecting malicious intentions in the discussion here. is there something you'd like to discuss, other than insinuating people are racist?
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 05, 2020, 10:39:32 pm
hey mister, you dropped your tiki torch.
Hey, psst, you arenít supposed to say the quiet part out loud. Is that how you got banned from Instagram, I wonder?

honestly the foreskin thing was a bluff and I was just throwing it out there like a cat in the wind. I don't even know which one is insta, I'm sad to say. is it the one you have to own a smartphone to be on? becasue that is not proper stuff.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on May 05, 2020, 10:44:01 pm
honestly the foreskin thing was a bluff and I was just throwing it out there like a cat in the wind.
Clarify.  You say your words were a bluff.  What were you pretending, and how does that differ from the reality?
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: hoopla on May 05, 2020, 10:49:56 pm
honestly the foreskin thing was a bluff and I was just throwing it out there like a cat in the wind.
Clarify.  You say your words were a bluff.  What were you pretending, and how does that differ from the reality?

ďIt was all an experimentĒ in 3... 2...
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: hoopla on May 05, 2020, 10:51:49 pm
Cool. Now I can completely ignore you with a clean conscience.

dude? if you've got a problem w/me kindly find a way to articulate it. otherwise I'm not sure how to address it. are you able to that? or do you believe I'm obligated to guess at your peruvision?

I am sorry that you are bothered by the term "racism" being applied to the dominant cultural group.  I shall send a memo to the Blacks, Browns, LGBT, Asians, Jews, and those Zoroastrian fuckers that nobody likes, and we'll see if they can't improve their attitudes.

I am sorry that we're a pack of bastards who take an undue joy in dragging you around by the ankles just because you are above worrying about "the average man" or whether "personhole" is a good replacement for "manhole."

Mostly, though, I am sorry about the lack of sincerity in this post.

honestly, mate, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and it seems like you're intent on injecting malicious intentions in the discussion here. is there something you'd like to discuss, other than insinuating people are racist?

Naw, no need to articulate anything, because that would be tacitly inviting discourse. Youíve actually articulated everything I needed to know.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 05, 2020, 11:10:20 pm

Naw, no need to articulate anything, because that would be tacitly inviting discourse. Youíve actually articulated everything I needed to know.

hey way to say nothing. I could care less.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: altered on May 05, 2020, 11:10:57 pm
hey mister, you dropped your tiki torch.
Hey, psst, you arenít supposed to say the quiet part out loud. Is that how you got banned from Instagram, I wonder?

honestly the foreskin thing was a bluff and I was just throwing it out there like a cat in the wind. I don't even know which one is insta, I'm sad to say. is it the one you have to own a smartphone to be on? becasue that is not proper stuff.

https://www.reddit.com/user/odibex

This looks exactly like the post history of someone who has his head screwed on straight enough to be sarcastic in fact and not shaking with outrage on the far side of the screen, yessiree.

Same with this! Clearly an intelligent and likeable personís work.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_ytXr4mdKCw

Edited to fix quotes.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 05, 2020, 11:41:05 pm
It seems certain people will make assumptions and cast judgments about other people character in order to avoid confronting their ideas.

Also, when do you think we'll have latin-y's?
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 05, 2020, 11:42:29 pm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_ytXr4mdKCw

Edited to fix quotes.

erm thank you for posting this, tho I posted it here already. it was kind of meant as a lampoon of the "no fap" manosphere movement. at least the title was - beyond that (the surface purview), I couldn't say. I'm not sure what you're saying here, which seems to becoming a common occurrence here. I've used odibex becasue I have nothing to hide and I am desperate for interaction/attention.

I can talk about my reddit posts if you'd like, but I think it'd be more productive if you actually challenged things I've said. otherwise it amounts to not a lot more than "tone policing"

if you'd lie to know why I spew the vitriol I do, I'm virtually "chomping at the bit" to talk about it. is that something you're interested in? or would you rather challenge me on my beliefs/positions on social/political issues? because I can surely roll with either.

Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 05, 2020, 11:43:30 pm
hey mister, you dropped your tiki torch.
yes. there's nothing actually wrong with tiki torches besides you seeing 'em a bad context, Tom. if you'd like to launch a thing at me that's great;. I'm not going to address a line of ant ghosts trucking to and fro 'cause they smell pineapple. I don't even know if you have a foreskin friend.

Sayin' the quiet part out loud, ITT.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 05, 2020, 11:44:35 pm

honestly the foreskin thing was a bluff and I was just throwing it out there like a cat in the wind.

And how'd that work out for you, Nazi boi?
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 05, 2020, 11:45:30 pm

if you'd lie to know why I spew the vitriol I do, I'm virtually "chomping at the bit" to talk about it. is that something you're interested in? or would you rather challenge me on my beliefs/positions on social/political issues? because I can surely roll with either.

Nobody fucking cares.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 05, 2020, 11:55:53 pm
I care, but not in the way you think I do.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 05, 2020, 11:58:11 pm
I care, but not in the way you think I do.

And nobody cares about that, either.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 06, 2020, 12:00:10 am
Oh yeah! Well I don't care that you don't care.  (Slams bedroom door)
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 06, 2020, 12:02:17 am
And nobody cares about that, either.

you're welcome to challenge me on any front ya like. otherwise you can fuck off and take your histrionic bitch off yourself that you like. becasue I care fuck all about that. what's your megan, friend?
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on May 06, 2020, 12:05:41 am
And nobody cares about that, either.

you're welcome to challenge me on any front ya like. otherwise you can fuck off and take your histrionic bitch off yourself that you like. becasue I care fuck all about that. what's your megan, friend?

:butthurt2:
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: altered on May 06, 2020, 12:06:45 am
And nobody cares about that, either.

you're welcome to challenge me on any front ya like. otherwise you can fuck off and take your histrionic bitch off yourself that you like. becasue I care fuck all about that. what's your megan, friend?

Itís not a record, but itís certainly top three.

Itís also the funniest split second switch to Catastrophic Stern Damage, Taking On Water, SOS, Iíve ever seen. He canít even type heís so mad.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 06, 2020, 12:23:48 am
And nobody cares about that, either.

you're welcome to challenge me on any front ya like. otherwise you can fuck off and take your histrionic bitch off yourself that you like. becasue I care fuck all about that. what's your megan, friend?

Nope.  Still don't care.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 06, 2020, 12:24:20 am
And nobody cares about that, either.

you're welcome to challenge me on any front ya like. otherwise you can fuck off and take your histrionic bitch off yourself that you like. becasue I care fuck all about that. what's your megan, friend?

Itís not a record, but itís certainly top three.

Itís also the funniest split second switch to Catastrophic Stern Damage, Taking On Water, SOS, Iíve ever seen. He canít even type heís so mad.

 :butthurt:
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 06, 2020, 12:34:58 am
Itís also the funniest split second switch to Catastrophic Stern Damage, Taking On Water, SOS, Iíve ever seen. He canít even type heís so mad.

:butthurt:

if you're ever interesting in speaking, I'd be super-interested in that. otherwise you just sound like a fat kid in a fun-house mirror. keep licking my balls.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 06, 2020, 12:36:16 am

if you're ever interesting in speaking, I'd be super-interested in that. otherwise you just sound like a fat kid in a fun-house mirror. keep licking my balls.

I am not in the least interesting in speaking with you, you hilarious alt-right freak.

I am here to laugh at your stupid ass.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 06, 2020, 12:40:55 am

if you're ever interesting in speaking, I'd be super-interested in that. otherwise you just sound like a fat kid in a fun-house mirror. keep licking my balls.

I am not in the least interesting in speaking with you, you hilarious alt-right freak.

I am here to laugh at your stupid ass.

guess what buddy? just between me and you? you bet on the wrong f/cking horse. and I could car f/cking less. check the #rs. I'm not here to help you out. go f/ck yourself.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on May 06, 2020, 12:41:35 am

if you're ever interesting in speaking, I'd be super-interested in that. otherwise you just sound like a fat kid in a fun-house mirror. keep licking my balls.

I am not in the least interesting in speaking with you, you hilarious alt-right freak.

I am here to laugh at your stupid ass.

I am personally disappointed. I want my money back. Thought we had a live one for just a second, but... nope.
 :boring:
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 06, 2020, 12:44:15 am

if you're ever interesting in speaking, I'd be super-interested in that. otherwise you just sound like a fat kid in a fun-house mirror. keep licking my balls.

I am not in the least interesting in speaking with you, you hilarious alt-right freak.

I am here to laugh at your stupid ass.

guess what buddy? just between me and you? you bet on the wrong f/cking horse. and I could car f/cking less. check the #rs. I'm not here to help you out. go f/ck yourself.

You seem...upset.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on May 06, 2020, 12:49:34 am

if you're ever interesting in speaking, I'd be super-interested in that. otherwise you just sound like a fat kid in a fun-house mirror. keep licking my balls.

I am not in the least interesting in speaking with you, you hilarious alt-right freak.

I am here to laugh at your stupid ass.

guess what buddy? just between me and you? you bet on the wrong f/cking horse. and I could car f/cking less. check the #rs. I'm not here to help you out. go f/ck yourself.

You seem...upset.   :lulz:

 :lol: Funny thing is like so many he's taking a run at you, but should probably be MUCH more concerned about altered. She's out there in the fucking bushes right now and there's no cancellation clause on the contract.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 06, 2020, 12:54:13 am

if you're ever interesting in speaking, I'd be super-interested in that. otherwise you just sound like a fat kid in a fun-house mirror. keep licking my balls.

I am not in the least interesting in speaking with you, you hilarious alt-right freak.

I am here to laugh at your stupid ass.

guess what buddy? just between me and you? you bet on the wrong f/cking horse. and I could car f/cking less. check the #rs. I'm not here to help you out. go f/ck yourself.

You seem...upset.   :lulz:

 :lol: Funny thing is like so many he's taking a run at you, but should probably be MUCH more concerned about altered. She's out there in the fucking bushes right now and there's no cancellation clause on the contract.

I feel her on that one.

In the end, grudges are all we have left.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on May 06, 2020, 01:00:14 am

if you're ever interesting in speaking, I'd be super-interested in that. otherwise you just sound like a fat kid in a fun-house mirror. keep licking my balls.

I am not in the least interesting in speaking with you, you hilarious alt-right freak.

I am here to laugh at your stupid ass.

guess what buddy? just between me and you? you bet on the wrong f/cking horse. and I could car f/cking less. check the #rs. I'm not here to help you out. go f/ck yourself.

You seem...upset.   :lulz:

if the thee off of you are revel in the fact you ds a discordant suck it's dick and praise it's agenda? guess what bit-chit's not. hat I in fact . do you really think it'd theshare about shit, hen you should indeed tare-take if the frontage that you're into. do you really think it's the hardcore shite of the left thy t? you're little f/cking girls parackind abbot in tituts. FUCK YOU. you're latecomers, and you 're folks who don't f/cking get it. plez challenge me.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: altered on May 06, 2020, 01:04:06 am
This is why you donít ever Nazi. When you Nazi, you type like youíre 15 years old, your hands are made of pinecones and your penis has been stolen by a witch.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on May 06, 2020, 01:05:12 am

if you're ever interesting in speaking, I'd be super-interested in that. otherwise you just sound like a fat kid in a fun-house mirror. keep licking my balls.

I am not in the least interesting in speaking with you, you hilarious alt-right freak.

I am here to laugh at your stupid ass.

guess what buddy? just between me and you? you bet on the wrong f/cking horse. and I could car f/cking less. check the #rs. I'm not here to help you out. go f/ck yourself.

You seem...upset.   :lulz:

if the thee off of you are revel in the fact you ds a discordant suck it's dick and praise it's agenda? guess what bit-chit's not. hat I in fact . do you really think it'd theshare about shit, hen you should indeed tare-take if the frontage that you're into. do you really think it's the hardcore shite of the left thy t? you're little f/cking girls parackind abbot in tituts. FUCK YOU. you're latecomers, and you 're folks who don't f/cking get it. plez challenge me.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Can't breathe...
Lulz OD.
I need a medic,
but no hospitals
can save me!

This explains why that video was complete garbage both technically and in content!
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 06, 2020, 01:13:24 am

if you're ever interesting in speaking, I'd be super-interested in that. otherwise you just sound like a fat kid in a fun-house mirror. keep licking my balls.

I am not in the least interesting in speaking with you, you hilarious alt-right freak.

I am here to laugh at your stupid ass.

guess what buddy? just between me and you? you bet on the wrong f/cking horse. and I could car f/cking less. check the #rs. I'm not here to help you out. go f/ck yourself.

You seem...upset.   :lulz:

if the thee off of you are revel in the fact you ds a discordant suck it's dick and praise it's agenda? guess what bit-chit's not. hat I in fact . do you really think it'd theshare about shit, hen you should indeed tare-take if the frontage that you're into. do you really think it's the hardcore shite of the left thy t? you're little f/cking girls parackind abbot in tituts. FUCK YOU. you're latecomers, and you 're folks who don't f/cking get it. plez challenge me.

argle bargle bargle   :lulz:
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 06, 2020, 01:13:40 am
This is why you donít ever Nazi. When you Nazi, you type like youíre 15 years old, your hands are made of pinecones and your penis has been stolen by a witch.

 :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on May 06, 2020, 01:25:52 am
you're welcome to challenge me on any front ya like.
Any front?  Any front?
Your failure of imagination is extraordinary.

First challenge:
Walk backward and barefoot on crushed crabshells which have been soaked in tobasco sauce, while reciting, from memory, every third word from Shakespeare's "King Lear" in Japanese translation.

Second challenge:
When on this forum, write only using proper grammar and punctuation.

Third challenge:
Withstand the storm you have unleashed on yourself.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on May 06, 2020, 01:26:43 am
if the thee off of you are revel in the fact you ds a discordant suck it's dick and praise it's agenda? guess what bit-chit's not. hat I in fact . do you really think it'd theshare about shit, hen you should indeed tare-take if the frontage that you're into. do you really think it's the hardcore shite of the left thy t? you're little f/cking girls parackind abbot in tituts. FUCK YOU. you're latecomers, and you 're folks who don't f/cking get it. plez challenge me.
Newsfeed?
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 06, 2020, 01:27:42 am
if the thee off of you are revel in the fact you ds a discordant suck it's dick and praise it's agenda? guess what bit-chit's not. hat I in fact . do you really think it'd theshare about shit, hen you should indeed tare-take if the frontage that you're into. do you really think it's the hardcore shite of the left thy t? you're little f/cking girls parackind abbot in tituts. FUCK YOU. you're latecomers, and you 're folks who don't f/cking get it. plez challenge me.
Newsfeed?

Oh, yeah.   :lol:
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 06, 2020, 01:29:09 am
You know there's a 90% chance that this is either Benaclypse or Furby/Sticker Ninja, right?
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 06, 2020, 01:34:55 am
Alright.  I challenge you.  Defend yourself!
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on May 06, 2020, 01:35:32 am
if the thee off of you are revel in the fact you ds a discordant suck it's dick and praise it's agenda? guess what bit-chit's not. hat I in fact . do you really think it'd theshare about shit, hen you should indeed tare-take if the frontage that you're into. do you really think it's the hardcore shite of the left thy t? you're little f/cking girls parackind abbot in tituts. FUCK YOU. you're latecomers, and you 're folks who don't f/cking get it. plez challenge me.
Newsfeed?

Oh, yeah.   :lol:

 :notnice:
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: hoopla on May 06, 2020, 01:48:35 am
This guyís a peach.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on May 06, 2020, 01:59:59 am
This guyís a peach.

well... he's definitely the pits.
 :rimshot:
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Cramulus on May 06, 2020, 01:57:35 pm
I don't want to get in line while everybody's knives are out, but I'm kinda missing what this guy said that's so upsetting

Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on May 06, 2020, 03:18:30 pm
I don't want to get in line while everybody's knives are out, but I'm kinda missing what this guy said that's so upsetting
He misspleled Spinach.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 06, 2020, 04:51:19 pm
I don't want to get in line while everybody's knives are out, but I'm kinda missing what this guy said that's so upsetting
He misspleled Spinach.
La espinaca
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: hoopla on May 06, 2020, 08:12:11 pm
I don't want to get in line while everybody's knives are out, but I'm kinda missing what this guy said that's so upsetting

I have no time for people who ďcanít be arsedĒ to retrain the way their mind thinks about things which donít directly impact them. Itís as simple as that.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 06, 2020, 09:51:17 pm
I don't want to get in line while everybody's knives are out, but I'm kinda missing what this guy said that's so upsetting

I have no time for people who ďcanít be arsedĒ to retrain the way their mind thinks about things which donít directly impact them. Itís as simple as that.

What he said.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: MMIX on May 07, 2020, 09:11:42 am
It must be nice to be perfect
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: hoopla on May 07, 2020, 01:51:32 pm
It must be nice to be perfect

As we all know, I shit down the throat of all noobs, due to my perfection.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 07, 2020, 01:58:14 pm
I think my irony-ometer just went off
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 07, 2020, 03:29:03 pm
It must be nice to be perfect

Sometimes I think back on the privilege threads and I laugh and I laugh and I laugh.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Pergamos on May 11, 2020, 11:31:10 pm
I scrolled through, not really reading, to see if Johnnyx had commented, since I believe he's the only native Spanish speaker on the board.  I didn't see it.

I have a nonbinary native Spanish speaking friend on facebook and they said that gender neutral language in Spanish is being developed.  x is sometimes used as a suffix (latinx) or e.  Personally I prefer e because it is easier to pronounce.  I believe there are other approaches, but those two are the most common.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 12, 2020, 02:30:34 am
I scrolled through, not really reading, to see if Johnnyx had commented, since I believe he's the only native Spanish speaker on the board.  I didn't see it.

I have a nonbinary native Spanish speaking friend on facebook and they said that gender neutral language in Spanish is being developed.  x is sometimes used as a suffix (latinx) or e.  Personally I prefer e because it is easier to pronounce.  I believe there are other approaches, but those two are the most common.

I think that's a pretty solid approach - If I understand it right, masculine/feminine is determined by ending in -o or -a (latino, latina) so latine works and is easier to pronounce.  the only other problem I know of is "el" and "la"  as in el latino or la latina.  perhaps replace that with ella (pronounced a-ya) and is that all you'd have to do?
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: altered on May 12, 2020, 02:52:36 am
I scrolled through, not really reading, to see if Johnnyx had commented, since I believe he's the only native Spanish speaker on the board.  I didn't see it.

I have a nonbinary native Spanish speaking friend on facebook and they said that gender neutral language in Spanish is being developed.  x is sometimes used as a suffix (latinx) or e.  Personally I prefer e because it is easier to pronounce.  I believe there are other approaches, but those two are the most common.

I think that's a pretty solid approach - If I understand it right, masculine/feminine is determined by ending in -o or -a (latino, latina) so latine works and is easier to pronounce.  the only other problem I know of is "el" and "la"  as in el latino or la latina.  perhaps replace that with ella (pronounced a-ya) and is that all you'd have to do?

I recently had a friend explain this to me, and have been picking a lot of it up by osmosis in the past few days.

1: x-endings are mostly a Mexican Spanish thing. The x is silent, the words end on a consonant (really weird in Spanish, but usually makes the meaning clear, generally considered preferable because it can be easily used to indicate unknown gender, lack of gender or non-binary gender).

2: e-endings are mostly a Brazilian Portuguese thing, and they are in fact pronounced. Latino, Latina, Latine, said Lah-tee-nay. Not as popular overall because it positively emphasizes neutrality (consider they:Latinx::it:Latine) but still used.

3: people usually use the existing articles, because the noun-article gender mismatch doesnít matter when youíre creating an artificial grammatical gender. Also, easier to use existing articles than make new ones: theyíre basic necessary vocabulary that context cannot help determine in many cases.

In practice, this means the articles used for a given neutral word are usually random, chosen more on the whim of the speaker/writer than on any particular grammatical rules. I have heard ďleĒ is being used in Mexican Spanish, too, but no examples were provided.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 12, 2020, 03:52:53 am
I think I was approaching from a "remove all gender from the language" approach and it sounds like you are describing a "remove all presumptions about gender from the language" approach.  Do I have that right?
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: altered on May 12, 2020, 04:28:54 am
I think I was approaching from a "remove all gender from the language" approach and it sounds like you are describing a "remove all presumptions about gender from the language" approach.  Do I have that right?

Not quite. Itís both, depending on who is using it and why, but the usual usage is just about assumptions, yeah.

Simply put, no trans person is enough of a moron to say ďgender is fake letís burn it all,Ē because theyíre fucking trans, they feel the reality of gender far more strongly than ANY cis individual could. There is something there. Itís important. Statements to the contrary are made in bad faith by transphobic morons, full stop. (To the point that ďabolish genderĒ is a trans meme.)

But then, stupid quirks of linguistics and etymology are used to delegitimize and abuse trans people, rile up cis people against them, and so forth. On top of that, given most gender in language is binary, many languages invalidate non-binary identities by default, including Spanish and Portuguese.

This means you literally cannot talk in a formal way about your non-binary friend in Spanish unless you just use their name over and over in every sentence. Different way to put it, the prior sentence cannot be translated into Spanish without changing its meaning.

So what is happening isnít some ďabolish gendered nouns, smash the binary, make Romance languages gender neutral all the timeĒ like a lot of people are being misled into believing. Itís just making space for things to be referred to without saying they are or are not a certain gender. This is the entire reason the ďLatineĒ take is less popular, and why no one actually cares about gendered articles like ďelĒ and ďlaĒ.

Again, Iím repeating a lot of this second hand or third hand, but it is coming from people I trust myself to understand what the fuck theyíre saying, and itís consistent with how transgender people act and think WRT gender as a heavily generalized rule. So I feel like Iím more likely to be correct than not on it.


ETA: probably should have mentioned this. My friend who was telling me about this is Brazilian, so that is the perspective Iím drawing upon. Mexico may have a different dynamic, though I havenít seen any examples that contradict what she was saying.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 12, 2020, 10:52:10 am
that makes a lot of sense.

there's a lot of directions one could go from here.  so many implications about how language is part of culture and influences thought, but this is as close to that minefield as i'm going to get.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Johnny on May 15, 2020, 02:57:39 am

I mean, since this thread is still going and i have been summoned, i will gladly fulfill my general role of thread interest killer XD

Ill do this between today and tomorrow
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Johnny on May 15, 2020, 07:43:27 am
rong:

"el latino/la latina"... as you might observe, the article is tied to the suffix "el -o" vs. "la -a"... so when you say "latinx" thats just a theoretical usage, because in practice you need to use an article before it.

************************************

Example: "…l es un latinx"...

1) The article "…l" is telling you that the given person is an individual male. (As opposed to "Ella" which is individual female)
2) The descriptor "un" is telling you again its an individual male. (As opposed to "una" which is individual female)
3) The end result is that due to the previous factors, saying "latino" is the only "correct" continuation of the phrase since its already overdetermined by two words... if you continue it with "latina" its not "logical" nor "correct"... if you continue it with "latinx" its also already been predetermined.

There is no gender neutral article, "…l" and "Ella" are gender charged... the best the suffix "-x" can achieve in this example (and i think in every single possible case?) is "This person is of biological male sex, but we do not know what gender he identifies with."

**************************************

the pencil... el lŠpiz
bowl... el tazůn
pants... el pantalůn
pocket... el bolsillo
hands... las manos
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Johnny on May 15, 2020, 07:51:57 am

Now, the suffix "-e" is a bit different than "-x" since it can actually be pronounced, due to it not being a consonant.

Plurals are also gendered "ellos/ellas", "los/las", so its the same issue as singulars.

**************************************************************

But theres cases where you can say, for example, "Todes", which means everyone, in favour of the gendered terms "Todos/todas".

"Todes las personas reunidas aquŪ pensamos que..."
"All the persons congregating here think that..."

"...las personas..." is gendered as female, but thats just the article attached similarly to inanimate objects, and does not insinuate at all that the persons congregated are either male or female - "los personos" does not exist.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Johnny on May 15, 2020, 07:54:53 am

"ella" cannot replace "ťl/la", because ella is literally "she".

El - Him
Ella - Her

but also:

El - the (male)
La - the (female)
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 15, 2020, 03:08:01 pm
It seems gender is more entrenched in the language than I realised. 

Do you think the constant reinforcement of gender differences in the language could explain the chauvenistic nature of latin culture?  I don't think there is a direct English translation of machismo, for example.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: LMNO on May 15, 2020, 03:28:49 pm
It seems gender is more entrenched in the language than I realised. 

Do you think the constant reinforcement of gender differences in the language could explain the chauvenistic nature of latin culture?  I don't think there is a direct English translation of machismo, for example.

"Toxic Masculinity".
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: altered on May 15, 2020, 05:37:11 pm
It seems gender is more entrenched in the language than I realised. 

Do you think the constant reinforcement of gender differences in the language could explain the chauvenistic nature of latin culture?  I don't think there is a direct English translation of machismo, for example.

"Toxic Masculinity".

Excellently done.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: LMNO on May 15, 2020, 06:27:50 pm
 :thanks:
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Cain on May 15, 2020, 06:34:36 pm
I'll have you know machismo and honour killings are totally different from when incels go off the deep end.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 15, 2020, 07:45:49 pm
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--vJoXtstm--/c_fill,fl_progressive,g_center,h_900,q_80,w_1600/swtf4s2xdanmhriz71nc.png)
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on May 15, 2020, 07:53:30 pm
I'll have you know machismo and honour killings are totally different from when incels go off the deep end.

I sense the potential for a horrible rap battle here ending in mass bloodshed. Just gonna go ahead and not chase it.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 15, 2020, 10:13:24 pm
I'll have you know machismo and honour killings are totally different from when incels go off the deep end.

I sense the potential for a horrible rap battle here ending in mass bloodshed. Just gonna go ahead and not chase it.

I'd pay extra for a seat in the splash zone, tho
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on May 15, 2020, 10:57:20 pm
I'll have you know machismo and honour killings are totally different from when incels go off the deep end.

I sense the potential for a horrible rap battle here ending in mass bloodshed. Just gonna go ahead and not chase it.

I'd pay extra for a seat in the splash blast zone, tho

FTFY  :D
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Johnny on May 16, 2020, 01:13:00 am
It seems gender is more entrenched in the language than I realised. 

Do you think the constant reinforcement of gender differences in the language could explain the chauvenistic nature of latin culture?  I don't think there is a direct English translation of machismo, for example.

As much as it reinforces animistic thought patterns, by which i mean, maybe.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Pergamos on May 16, 2020, 10:46:12 pm
It seems gender is more entrenched in the language than I realised. 

Do you think the constant reinforcement of gender differences in the language could explain the chauvenistic nature of latin culture?  I don't think there is a direct English translation of machismo, for example.

I wouldn't simply blame the language.  Spanish speaking culture may be a bit more chauvanistic than English speaking, but French speaking culture is not, and French is just as tightly gendered as Spanish is.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 16, 2020, 11:16:33 pm
It seems gender is more entrenched in the language than I realised. 

Do you think the constant reinforcement of gender differences in the language could explain the chauvenistic nature of latin culture?  I don't think there is a direct English translation of machismo, for example.

I wouldn't simply blame the language.  Spanish speaking culture may be a bit more chauvanistic than English speaking, but French speaking culture is not, and French is just as tightly gendered as Spanish is.
That's a good point.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Johnny on May 17, 2020, 02:22:00 am
It seems gender is more entrenched in the language than I realised. 

Do you think the constant reinforcement of gender differences in the language could explain the chauvenistic nature of latin culture?  I don't think there is a direct English translation of machismo, for example.

I wouldn't simply blame the language.  Spanish speaking culture may be a bit more chauvanistic than English speaking, but French speaking culture is not, and French is just as tightly gendered as Spanish is.


https://i2.wp.com/theglobalamericans.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/female-homicide.png?fit=1600%2C2900&ssl=1 (https://i2.wp.com/theglobalamericans.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/female-homicide.png?fit=1600%2C2900&ssl=1)

It's 2007-2012 statistics for feminicide so its not current, but its worldwide figures.

#1 El Salvador
#2 Honduras
#4 Guatemala

And correlation is not causation, but well...
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: altered on May 17, 2020, 03:36:30 am
Latin cultures tend to be more violent as a whole, due to either being fascists (Spain, parts of Latin America) or relatively oppressed people thrown into the meat grinder repeatedly for the benefit of rich white people (parts of Latin America and the Caribbean) or straight up getting constantly smashed into the dirt for being left of Mussolini (the rest of Latin America and the Caribbean). Donít forget plenty of heavily armed drug cartels with foreign backing.

Then global (read: modern Western-driven) culture is pretty fucking misogynistic as a general rule, so of course in the places people get killed most often, most deaths will be of women.

I feel like that is a more powerful determinant than assuming gendered language creates misogyny.

Consider: all the Romance languages and the Germanic languages are just as gendered and only some of them have the distinction of having a gender neutral grammatical gender, and yet I canít think of any statistic that says Germany, Switzerland and Austria are any more dangerous for women than Belgium or Ireland. Nor France, nor Portugal, etc.

Then consider that Arabic has a much weaker grammatical gender than any of the Romance languages, but the Middle East is a much tougher place to be a woman than most Latin cultured nations. Also, it really sucks to be a woman in parts of Southeast Asia, such as the Philippines, but Tagalog has no grammatical gender. In fact, it doesnít even have gendered pronouns. Seriously.

Sorry. Doesnít pass the sniff test for me.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Cain on May 17, 2020, 01:23:13 pm
Agreed. This discussion sounds way too close to linguistic determinism. I get why this is an intellectually attractive argument, but the evidence for it simply is not there and there are far better explanations for machismo, violence against women etc than the language being gendered.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: The Johnny on May 18, 2020, 07:02:55 am

So you're telling me that if we all switched to speaking Esperanto the world's problems would not be fixed?

Fuck you!
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 18, 2020, 01:07:51 pm
aha - linguistic determinism.  I didn't know it had a name, but that certainly fits the bill. 

although I think it may be a factor in explaining some behaviors, simply trying to find illustrative examples is proving difficult enough to rule out the plausibility altogether.

how many exceptions can a rule have before it is no longer a rule?
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: Cain on May 18, 2020, 02:02:28 pm
There is a "soft" version of linguistic determinism, called the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. In short, this argues that linguistic categories can influence, but do not necessarily drive outcomes. And the thing is, we can of course think of counterexamples. The infamous one is that the Inuit have 3 different words for snow, obviously because they deal with snow more than us down south and so need different words to describe the different qualities of snow they encounter. But just because English doesn't have three different "snow" words doesn't mean that people don't modify "snow" with other descriptions, to achieve the same effect as these three words have.

It's a problematic distinction, especially when considering how language evolves.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: rong on May 18, 2020, 04:29:10 pm
There is a "soft" version of linguistic determinism, called the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. In short, this argues that linguistic categories can influence, but do not necessarily drive outcomes. And the thing is, we can of course think of counterexamples. The infamous one is that the Inuit have 3 different words for snow, obviously because they deal with snow more than us down south and so need different words to describe the different qualities of snow they encounter. But just because English doesn't have three different "snow" words doesn't mean that people don't modify "snow" with other descriptions, to achieve the same effect as these three words have.

It's a problematic distinction, especially when considering how language evolves.

there should be a word for this concept:  linguinfluence?  languence?  influage?  langfluistic?  I think I like the first 2 better.
Title: Re: Gender Neutral Spanich, etc.
Post by: altered on May 18, 2020, 09:40:38 pm
The only pretty solid evidence I have found of something like SWH goes the opposite direction: itís easier to discuss something that words encompass; if you need to discuss a novel idea you name it. Language grows in the directions the speakers find most important. And this seems like an iron clad hypothesis, given the existence of jargon, slang and portmanteaus. The inverse is senseless.