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Messages - Demolition_Squid

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61
Being lumped in with the hyper right for bringing up the discussion seemed, to me, to say "This isn't something that any sane person should discuss".

1.  I distinctly separated you from the hyper right.  I said that the hyper right were no longer the only people opposed to freedom of speech...Meaning as I understand it.  You and I obviously have different ideas of what freedom of speech is, and how far it extends.

2.  I have also stated that curtailed speech has worked fine in many cultures.  I do not consider those cultures insane.  Please do not put words in my mouth.

I apologize Dok, I misinterpreted your statement.


So now it's not just the hyper-right that can't abide freedom of speech in all its messy glory.

I'm walking away from this discussion, for a short period of mourning.

Will return later.

Is Freedom of Speech a topic we can't discuss freely? I'm not against, I just find this different view very interesting. It seems less black and white to me than it used to.

Sure it is. Dok also has the freedom to step out of the conversation if he chooses.

NO HE HAS TO STAY

OTHERWISE HE'S INFRINGING ON MY FREE SPEECH

SOMEHOW

Being lumped in with the hyper right for bringing up the discussion seemed, to me, to say "This isn't something that any sane person should discuss".

That's all.

And Oysters there seems to have the point... I'm not saying we should limit freedom of speech, I am simply surprised that it seems to work so well here and though it might be nice to discuss the advantages and risks associated with both systems.

As far as I can tell, even the poor people enjoy freedom of speech here... as long as they don't use inflammatory speech to incite hate, or make up baseless lies.

I agree that the sponsors pulling out and a potential libel suit are good ways to deal with Rush... it was the Palin comment that got me thinking about this viewpoint.

If limited Freedom is no freedom, then should access to arms be unlimited? Should the freedom to associate extend to racists and misogynists denying minorities or women? The arguments seem very similar.

Or want to discuss the Armenian Genocide

Turkey is not a country whose human rights record you want to emulate. Seriously.



Well Turkey is a democratic nation that overthrew the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire was involved in the situation with the Armenians (kinda like blaming Americans for something King George did). I'm still confused about the Armenian situation myself (good thing we're not hosted in France or I couldn't say this, how's that for Irony!). Basically the Armenians were involved in a couple attempts at revolution, then backed the Greeks when the Greeks invaded. Yeah, thousands of them died in the fighting, but thousands of Ottomans also died in the fighting. Depending on which historians you read, you can get grossly conflicting details from the number of people that died, to how they died. As for the relocation issue, the conclusion of WW I left the Ottomans stuck in agreements to give up some areas, relocate native turks from those areas back into areas they still controlled etc.

I personally think it was a terrible situation, like all wars... but the evidence seems split on it being a particularly violent war or genocide. Unlike other genocides, there was never an official policy by the Ottomans, and it doesn't appear that they were trying to wipe out an entire group of people... by many accounts.

The law beng used in the article to prosecute the novelist is actually getting quite a lot of debate and currently his books are selling well here (they are in displays in almost every bookstore).

I don't think we should emulate Turkey, or change our laws, I was just impressed and surprised at the balance they seem to be maintaining currently.


So now it's not just the hyper-right that can't abide freedom of speech in all its messy glory.

I'm walking away from this discussion, for a short period of mourning.

Will return later.

Is Freedom of Speech a topic we can't discuss freely? I'm not against, I just find this different view very interesting. It seems less black and white to me than it used to.

Sure it is. Dok also has the freedom to step out of the conversation if he chooses.

NO HE HAS TO STAY

OTHERWISE HE'S INFRINGING ON MY FREE SPEECH

SOMEHOW

Being lumped in with the hyper right for bringing up the discussion seemed, to me, to say "This isn't something that any sane person should discuss".

That's all.

And Oysters there seems to have the point... I'm not saying we should limit freedom of speech, I am simply surprised that it seems to work so well here and though it might be nice to discuss the advantages and risks associated with both systems.

As far as I can tell, even the poor people enjoy freedom of speech here... as long as they don't use inflammatory speech to incite hate, or make up baseless lies.

I agree that the sponsors pulling out and a potential libel suit are good ways to deal with Rush... it was the Palin comment that got me thinking about this viewpoint.

If limited Freedom is no freedom, then should access to arms be unlimited? Should the freedom to associate extend to racists and misogynists denying minorities or women? The arguments seem very similar.

The thing about the second amendment is that it doesn't say you have the right to own weapons outright. It mentions that well ordered militias are necessary for securing the people's freedom, and because of that the right to bear arms is not infringed. But there's that militia thing in there. The wording is weird because it doesn't say you have to be part of the militia, but it's implied. And this is also one of those tricky things where the Framers could not have foreseen the types of weaponry that we've invented. I'm ok with people owning weapons, but I don't really see any purpose to owning an Uzi.

As far as free association is concerned, of course hate groups have that right. It's when they start breaking the law or plotting to that you go in and haul them off.

All depending on how you interpret it. Many private groups have argued that the freedom of association means they can't be forced to associate with blacks etc. Is that what the authors had in mind?

I

You're right; the Armenian genocide is totally irrelevant to modern Turkey. Which is why they obsess about it so much and why Armenian racism is a hallmark of Turkish right wing and nationalist movements.

Obviously shutting down all discussion and locking people up for things like 'defaming the Turkish national character' are totally reasonable responses and we should all look to Turkey as an example for setting the tone of our public debates.

62
So now it's not just the hyper-right that can't abide freedom of speech in all its messy glory.

I'm walking away from this discussion, for a short period of mourning.

Will return later.

Is Freedom of Speech a topic we can't discuss freely? I'm not against, I just find this different view very interesting. It seems less black and white to me than it used to.

Sure it is. Dok also has the freedom to step out of the conversation if he chooses.

NO HE HAS TO STAY

OTHERWISE HE'S INFRINGING ON MY FREE SPEECH

SOMEHOW

Being lumped in with the hyper right for bringing up the discussion seemed, to me, to say "This isn't something that any sane person should discuss".

That's all.

And Oysters there seems to have the point... I'm not saying we should limit freedom of speech, I am simply surprised that it seems to work so well here and though it might be nice to discuss the advantages and risks associated with both systems.

As far as I can tell, even the poor people enjoy freedom of speech here... as long as they don't use inflammatory speech to incite hate, or make up baseless lies.

I agree that the sponsors pulling out and a potential libel suit are good ways to deal with Rush... it was the Palin comment that got me thinking about this viewpoint.

If limited Freedom is no freedom, then should access to arms be unlimited? Should the freedom to associate extend to racists and misogynists denying minorities or women? The arguments seem very similar.

Or want to discuss the Armenian Genocide

Turkey is not a country whose human rights record you want to emulate. Seriously.


63
What I find more interesting in freedom of speech is where it should apply, rather than what it should apply to.

By that I mean geographical space. Should protesters be allowed to shove dead fetus pictures in the faces of women on the way to the abortion clinic? Should people be able to campaign against gay marriage outside churches that allow it? Is that any different to 'Occupy'?

I accept people should be able to say whatever they want when you have to choose to listen to them, I find it a lot more difficult to accept that all viewpoints need to be capable of being inflicted on people all the time, which is another unspoken assumption in a lot of freedom of speech arguments I've had.

But that way lays Designated Free Speech Zones. It is still very tricky to navigate.

64
Apple Talk / Re: Open letter. A few thoughts.
« on: March 08, 2012, 04:31:12 pm »
FFS what is this bullshit? Innocent bystander, like Howl and Nigel are gunning down random people in the street.

An important issue (Eartha is losing her fucking shit!) was raised in a humorous manner (Wow BB your friend is bugfuck!) and rather than see it as that, BB decided that it was a direct personal attack on him because... .... ...... well presumably because he didn't put on his big boy panties that morning or some such nonsense.

And then after flipping out Nigel gave as good as she got. Oh the humanity.

This is fucking ridiculous.

Obviously we should now all be super serious all the time and state only precisely what we mean without any chance for misinterpretation or misunderstanding. Otherwise the flamewars will burn the firewall and then where will we be?

I move we make it against the rules to post in anything other than e-prime.

Then we could say: My friends it appears that communications from Eartha have been received, which are not within the expected parameters. It seems to me that in these circumstances Eartha might come across as crazy, and may possibly be planning to assault me with an empty gin bottle at some point in the future. If this is the case then I believe I would like to take issue with this. Perhaps her friends would like to weigh in on the matter? It would seem to me that their input could be valuable in resolving this regrettable happenstance.

65
Apple Talk / Re: ATTN: FRIENDS OF EARTHA
« on: March 07, 2012, 04:01:23 pm »
 :roll:

I found this thread pretty hilarious. I was sort of down on it when BadBeast came in at first... but then his completely over the top vitriol wrapped around and became funny again.

9/10 would read (and laugh) again.

66
Lets not forget that Facebook are currently searching for ways to monetize their service.

It is only a matter of time until employers can pay to override your privacy settings and snoop you out. This will likely not be done on a case by case basis, but instead perhaps facebook changes its terms of service to allow security companies to do so (and the police etc) under the guise of fighting cybercrime/identity theft/whatever. Security companies by a license from facebook - a subscription service of some sort - and then companies and universities can pay those companies to get the scoop on your social life.

It might not even be that complicated but I expect it is coming and I suspect something like the above scenario would slip under the radar of most of the media because, well, who wants to stop Scotland Yard tracking down cyberbullies who drive kids to suicide or whatever the controversy of the month is.

67
Aneristic Illusions / Re: The "Trotskyite" thing
« on: March 06, 2012, 12:39:34 pm »
My instinct is that 'Commie' or 'Communist' sounds too uncomfortably American (our stand up comedians have been ripping on american politicians for the whole Socialist = Commie/Communist thing for a while) and crazy on behalf of the person spouting it. Trotskyist has the same connotation but also sounds more educated somehow. The middle classes love hearing where things are from, too. Knowing their ham is from Wiltshire and their political opponents are Trotskyites not just Communists appeals to a certain mindset.

On the other hand I've been sick as a dog for days and I'm only just starting to feel human now so I might be babbling incoherently. Moreso than normal, even.

68
Techmology and Scientism / Yahoo vs Facebook
« on: February 28, 2012, 02:30:15 pm »
So for a while now, Yahoo has been flailing around trying to find some way to become a viable business again. They've been on a pretty steep downward trajectory, their search and email services beaten out by Google and fewer and fewer people using them at all.

A little while ago they elected a new CEO, and a radical new strategy has been implemented - sue Facebook for violating their patents!

I read this on the FT but they are funny about sharing articles, so this is the best other source I could find in thirty seconds: http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2012/02/28/yahoo-threatens-to-sue-facebook-over.html

Quote from: New York Times
The paper quoted a Yahoo spokesperson as saying, "Yahoo has a responsibility to its shareholders, employees and other stakeholders to protect its intellectual property. We must insist that Facebook either enter into a licensing agreement or we will be compelled to move forward unilaterally to protect our rights.

Facebook spokesman Barry Schnitt, however, told The Times, "Yahoo contacted us the same time they called The New York Times and so we haven't had the opportunity to fully evaluate their claims."
It isn't clear how much Yahoo thinks it is owed by Facebook but the fight comes at a sensitive time for both companies. Facebook is getting ready to go public in the next few months and Yahoo is trying to establish its new identity under recently named CEO Scott Thompson.

The FT had an additional quote from Yahoo basically saying that it has nothing to do with Facebook's upcoming initial public offering, and instead is purely a new strategy by Scott Thompson to try and turn Yahoo around.

Really interesting that it is even possible Yahoo could threaten this legitimately. Apparently Facebook has secured 58 patents and has another 410 pending.

69
I got a Galaxy S II last weekend.

It is a little known fact, but in order to keep costs down, the new iPhone 4S is being constructed largely from the parts of rendered down chinese workers and iPhone cultists who died during the mass outpouring of grief following Steve Job's death.

Also the Galaxy S II is available on one of the cheaper contracts at Orange at the moment (26/month, unlimited texts, 200 minutes of calls and a decent download limit; 750 mb IIRC). Whereas in order to pay for an iPhone it is necessary to put up your firstborn and at least two organs (depending on your health) as collateral. That seemed mildly excessive to me.

70
Literate Chaotic / Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« on: February 23, 2012, 07:08:56 pm »
I read the first book of Hunger Games and I"ll be getting around to the 2nd and 3rd eventually.  I just had a serious problem with the writing.  I thought it was pretty bad.  The storytelling is great, it's very compelling and I had fun reading it, but it's just not good writing.

I'd heard a lot of talk about the Kingkiller Chronicles as well, which so far is The Name of the Wind and The Wise Man's Fear.  Again they're good stories that are, with some glaring exceptions, well told, but the writing just bothers me.

The quality of writing does not improve, but it really clicked with me. It might be partly because it is told from the perspective of a teenager, and I found the style helped paint that atmosphere. I can see how it isn't for everyone though. I will say that book 2 was weaker than book 3, but it is a 'bridging' book IMO. Book 3, the last third or so I was completely caught.

71
Literate Chaotic / Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« on: February 23, 2012, 06:07:06 pm »
Let me know what you think of the ending to Book Three when you get there.

Just finished it.

It'll take a little while to formulate a response that isn't 'holy fuck' I think. There were a couple of points I was worried that it was going to veer suddenly in tone, but the ending was pretty much perfect. I saw some elements coming but overall I enjoyed it.

I think you were absolutely right to give the series to your nephew. This is the sort of fiction I'd have loved to have read as a teenager.

72
Literate Chaotic / Re: Salo
« on: February 23, 2012, 10:40:28 am »
I missed this until now. The film sounds brutal, and I would very much like to hear your thoughts on it.

73
Literate Chaotic / Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« on: February 23, 2012, 10:30:11 am »
Just finished book two of the Hunger Games - Catching Fire. I didn't really intend to but again, once I started, I didn't want to put it down. Because I'm at home today, I didn't!

The first one was much better, and there are some elements which bugged me a little bit about where this story has gone. The villains are obviously fairly transparent, but their actions seem far more difficult to justify in the second story than the first.

Then again, it isn't meant to be utterly realistic, and it is still a pretty good thriller IMO.

Got a long train journey and a lot of sitting around for appointments this afternoon. Looking forward to book three!

74
Free Speech Zones

Redacted

75
Literate Chaotic / Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« on: February 21, 2012, 08:18:27 pm »
Finished the first one ten minutes ago.

It was pretty great, but I am now hungry (har har) for more. Really looking forward to seeing where it is taken from here, though if my instinct is right I can see how the next couple of books would be much harder to pace.

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