Unlimited Obama Appreciation Thread.

[Don Coyote]

I mean we can say its too many people, but technology will likely be replacing people for a long time to come... So do we just start passing out cyanide with pink slips?

I work in heavy industry.  TECHNOLOGY CREATES JOBS, IT DOES NOT ELIMINATE THEM.  At this refinery alone, automation has added 15 jobs, from 41 people to 56...And we're hardly unique in that respect.

I had this thought earlier about how automation creates jobs.

Sure you could take a highschool grad, give him a 2-4 hour class on how to operate a CnC mill and then have him monitor 3-4 mills at once, BUT those things periodically need maintenance, those things need to have their sensors calibrated, tools needs to be sharpened, gage blocks and other measuring tools need to be checked to standard, the perfectly flat and smooth granite table that has all the parts gaged on needs to be checked and re-polished. Some of these things could be outsourced or done by minimially skilled workers, but some of them need to be done by trained workers, that in order to be cost effective need to be local.

I'm pretty sure this applies to most automated manufacturing plants.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I mean we can say its too many people, but technology will likely be replacing people for a long time to come... So do we just start passing out cyanide with pink slips?

I work in heavy industry.  TECHNOLOGY CREATES JOBS, IT DOES NOT ELIMINATE THEM.  At this refinery alone, automation has added 15 jobs, from 41 people to 56...And we're hardly unique in that respect.

I had this thought earlier about how automation creates jobs.

Sure you could take a highschool grad, give him a 2-4 hour class on how to operate a CnC mill and then have him monitor 3-4 mills at once, BUT those things periodically need maintenance, those things need to have their sensors calibrated, tools needs to be sharpened, gage blocks and other measuring tools need to be checked to standard, the perfectly flat and smooth granite table that has all the parts gaged on needs to be checked and re-polished. Some of these things could be outsourced or done by minimially skilled workers, but some of them need to be done by trained workers, that in order to be cost effective need to be local.

I'm pretty sure this applies to most automated manufacturing plants.

Not only that, but you're kicking out more product, which means you need more packaging guys, forklift operators, truck drivers, etc...Add in the increased orders at the steel yard, and there you go.

[Don Coyote]

I mean we can say its too many people, but technology will likely be replacing people for a long time to come... So do we just start passing out cyanide with pink slips?

I work in heavy industry.  TECHNOLOGY CREATES JOBS, IT DOES NOT ELIMINATE THEM.  At this refinery alone, automation has added 15 jobs, from 41 people to 56...And we're hardly unique in that respect.

I had this thought earlier about how automation creates jobs.

Sure you could take a highschool grad, give him a 2-4 hour class on how to operate a CnC mill and then have him monitor 3-4 mills at once, BUT those things periodically need maintenance, those things need to have their sensors calibrated, tools needs to be sharpened, gage blocks and other measuring tools need to be checked to standard, the perfectly flat and smooth granite table that has all the parts gaged on needs to be checked and re-polished. Some of these things could be outsourced or done by minimially skilled workers, but some of them need to be done by trained workers, that in order to be cost effective need to be local.

I'm pretty sure this applies to most automated manufacturing plants.

Not only that, but you're kicking out more product, which means you need more packaging guys, forklift operators, truck drivers, etc...Add in the increased orders at the steel yard, and there you go.

I had completely spaced on that too.
Also, the faster you make stuff, the faster you run out of raw materials, which ends up increasing demand for the equipment to mine, refine, package, ship the RAW materials.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I mean we can say its too many people, but technology will likely be replacing people for a long time to come... So do we just start passing out cyanide with pink slips?

I work in heavy industry.  TECHNOLOGY CREATES JOBS, IT DOES NOT ELIMINATE THEM.  At this refinery alone, automation has added 15 jobs, from 41 people to 56...And we're hardly unique in that respect.

I had this thought earlier about how automation creates jobs.

Sure you could take a highschool grad, give him a 2-4 hour class on how to operate a CnC mill and then have him monitor 3-4 mills at once, BUT those things periodically need maintenance, those things need to have their sensors calibrated, tools needs to be sharpened, gage blocks and other measuring tools need to be checked to standard, the perfectly flat and smooth granite table that has all the parts gaged on needs to be checked and re-polished. Some of these things could be outsourced or done by minimially skilled workers, but some of them need to be done by trained workers, that in order to be cost effective need to be local.

I'm pretty sure this applies to most automated manufacturing plants.

Not only that, but you're kicking out more product, which means you need more packaging guys, forklift operators, truck drivers, etc...Add in the increased orders at the steel yard, and there you go.

I had completely spaced on that too.
Also, the faster you make stuff, the faster you run out of raw materials, which ends up increasing demand for the equipment to mine, refine, package, ship the RAW materials.

Yep.  There's a bit of a trap built into this, though.

[Triple Zero]

And you get 99 people that consider their part to be done.  Just saying.

Okay, but the point isn't that pressing Like makes you an activist. Those people weren't doing anything anyway. If their passive, superficial level of participation increased the number of real participants, they helped in some fractional way. Which is more than they were doing before facebook.

Actually it also makes those 99 people more likely to act when prompted with an opportunity for a slightly higher level of involvement. Same psychological mechanism petitions are based on.

Also, to the question what is actually being accomplished, I think the recent leak of HBGary emails is a good example. It came from Anonymous, and I don't think that small subset of Anon blackhat hackers would have done the same if it hadn't been for the HUGE recent online social support of "leaks" in this fashion.

As for the rest, what Cram said. Otherwise the 99 would have been doing nothing, so it's no loss. If you really think there's a loss, I'd like to see an example of people that would otherwise have done something substantial but instead now say "ah but I clicked Like on FB, my work is done".

[Triple Zero]

Another idea I've heard involved splitting the existing work, so instead of 60% of the population working 40 hours a week , you get 75 or 80% of the population working 30 hours a week, or 25 or whatever works.

I think this is a real good idea. Cause I agree with Roger's views on the dangers of entirely unemployed people becoming food-tubes, hell I can personally relate to that which is why I need to find a job, fast, even if it's volunteer work. But I think that if you work 20-30 hours a week, you've already easily staved off the food-tube hazard. At least, such would be the case for myself.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Another idea I've heard involved splitting the existing work, so instead of 60% of the population working 40 hours a week , you get 75 or 80% of the population working 30 hours a week, or 25 or whatever works.

I think this is a real good idea. Cause I agree with Roger's views on the dangers of entirely unemployed people becoming food-tubes, hell I can personally relate to that which is why I need to find a job, fast, even if it's volunteer work. But I think that if you work 20-30 hours a week, you've already easily staved off the food-tube hazard. At least, such would be the case for myself.

With modern technology, there is absolutely no reason why a human being should have to work more than 32 hours a week.

[LMNO]

I've long been a fan of the national dividend system.  Funded with a 0.1% global Tobin Tax, it would allow everyone to have enough to live on without means testing, and that income could be supplemented by other means without the base payment being affected.  It would make low paying but socially necessary jobs (nursing, teachers, social workers, cleaners, dustbin collection etc) more attractive, allow artists to spend more time making art instead of looking for ways to subsist and probably even save money by allowing much of the welfare system to be abolished.

Friedman's negative income tax would also be acceptable, but I think this provides more incentives for engaging in socially necessary careers than his model.

I don't think I've ever heard of this, but I really like the idea of it.  Is there a link with more info?

[Suu]

I have decided that because I'm American, no matter how hard I try at anything or apply myself, I am simply not allowed to be smart. Ever.

[Luna]

I have decided that because I'm American, no matter how hard I try at anything or apply myself, I am simply not allowed to be smart. Ever.

We're allowed to BE smart, as long as we do it in private, and wash our hands afterward.

[Juana]

I've long been a fan of the national dividend system.  Funded with a 0.1% global Tobin Tax, it would allow everyone to have enough to live on without means testing, and that income could be supplemented by other means without the base payment being affected.  It would make low paying but socially necessary jobs (nursing, teachers, social workers, cleaners, dustbin collection etc) more attractive, allow artists to spend more time making art instead of looking for ways to subsist and probably even save money by allowing much of the welfare system to be abolished.

Friedman's negative income tax would also be acceptable, but I think this provides more incentives for engaging in socially necessary careers than his model.

I don't think I've ever heard of this, but I really like the idea of it.  Is there a link with more info?

This. It sounds really interesting. And I'd love it, since I'm in school and I hate working on campus. I need to work because I need to feel productive, but I'd rather work at the center for non-violence across the street as a volunteer or do what I do for free in places that need me than sit here, killing time because this teacher's system is totally retarded and there's really no need for me.