REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

As far as I can tell, marijuana is vastly less damaging than alcohol.

But not as Holy™ as cactus.

I gotta try that stuff sometime!

It makes me extra Holy™, but usually results in property damage and surprise long-term relationships.

[AFK]

As far as I can tell, marijuana is vastly less damaging than alcohol.

Sure.  But it can still be fairly damaging in its own right.  Juist ask any mother, father, son, daughter of an addict.  

[AFK]

If my kids were to choose between pot and alcohol, I'd rather they smoke pot. I'm also honest with them that some drugs are WAY worse than others. I really think the "war on drugs" fucked up badly by equating pot with crack, and the whole "gateway drug" thing. All that taught kids is that adults are liars.

I think there may be a bit of a regional cultural difference between Maine and Oregon, though.

Maybe, but the gateway effect is true.  It isn't a "lie".  But as I explained earlier, marijuana isn't the one and only gateway drug.  It just happens to be one of the more popular ones amongst youth. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

As far as I can tell, marijuana is vastly less damaging than alcohol.

But not as Holy™ as cactus.

I gotta try that stuff sometime!

It makes me extra Holy™, but usually results in property damage and surprise long-term relationships.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

If my kids were to choose between pot and alcohol, I'd rather they smoke pot. I'm also honest with them that some drugs are WAY worse than others. I really think the "war on drugs" fucked up badly by equating pot with crack, and the whole "gateway drug" thing. All that taught kids is that adults are liars.

I think there may be a bit of a regional cultural difference between Maine and Oregon, though.

Maybe, but the gateway effect is true.  It isn't a "lie".  But as I explained earlier, marijuana isn't the one and only gateway drug.  It just happens to be one of the more popular ones amongst youth. 

I think there is a difference between "gateway drug" as you are using it and "gateway drug" as was used to warn me and others.

Gateway Drug as in making it less psychologically difficult to break the law if you have already broken the law: Sure!
Gateway Drug as in smoking pot soon becomes Not Enough so you have to graduate on to heavier drugs to get your high: Probably bullshit.

I was taught the latter, but I think you're using it more in line with the former, correct?

[AFK]

I think there is a difference between "gateway drug" as you are using it and "gateway drug" as was used to warn me and others.

Gateway Drug as in making it less psychologically difficult to break the law if you have already broken the law: Sure!
Gateway Drug as in smoking pot soon becomes Not Enough so you have to graduate on to heavier drugs to get your high: Probably bullshit.

I was taught the latter, but I think you're using it more in line with the former, correct?

No, it's not really either one of those, though the latter is part of it and is most definitely not bullshit.  It is a fundamental in the stages of addiction.  Does that mean that everyone who starts down the marijuana path is going to graduate to harder drug use?  Obviously not.  But it doesn't negate the gateway effect.  It isn't an absolute and isn't put out as an absolute today.  But if a person's motivation for drug use is escapism and self-medicating, they definitely are going to be prone to it as they develop tolerances. 

The other component of the gateway effect is access as I've described.  Marijuana does have a gateway effect tied to it, but it is not the only drug with those properties.  Inhalants and Rx drugs also can be gateway drugs based upon them being easily available in the home.  An obvious difference is that inhalants and Rx drugs can be deadly or seriously damaging on the first try. 

[BabylonHoruv]

While I agree with most of your post, I'd like to add that the "gateway drug" effect has been largely debunked in study after study. It's one of those correlation does not equal causation things; while people who are going to use hard drugs will generally use cannabis as well, most cannabis users seem to have no interest in using hard drugs.

It is only a myth in as much as marijuana isn't the ONLY gateway drug.  But it certainly does serve as a gateway drug.  Gateway drugs have less to do with the drug itself and more to do with access.  Marijuana is a gateway drug because it is fairly easy for a young person to get.  All experimentation starts with drugs that are easy to get.  Inhalants and Rx are also gateway drugs, because a kid can get them right in their house without paying anybody for them.  These are particularily scary gateway drugs in that the first use can kill or cause serious brain damage. 

The other piece with marijuana is its social acceptance.  Despite the name of this thread, the "REEFER MADNESS" attitude towards marijuana in our society doesn't exist anymore.  It is much more accepted and this has unfortunately even trickled down to some permissive attitudes on the part of parents when it comes to youth using it.  They consider it a "rite of passage" and don't really think too much about it.  Unfortunately, we do see that what starts MJ leads to other drugs, and in many cases poly-drug use.  Just the combination of alcohol and marijuana alone can cause serious issues with kids, particularily when it comes to judgement and behavior. 

Social acceptance is one side of the gateway drug issue, the other side is illegality.

If a drug is socially accepted but not illegal  (alcohol, tobacco) it's not generally a gateway drug.

Same if it is illegal but generally not socially accepted (salvia, in those states that have made it illegal, just to name of a relatively mild intoxicant)

[BabylonHoruv]

I also would like to point out that a lot of the discussion around the Mexican cartels is a little conflationary.  In the sense that those cartels are increaslingly becoming involved in the illegal prescription drug trade.  Whether it is trafficking or creating knock-offs and working them into the system.  Legalizing marijuana may take care of a few small time operations that are solely focusing on marijuana, but the large crime organizations are diversified enough, that it won't really make that big of an impact.  And so you really won't be saving a whole helluva lot of money in that area.  Just something to think about. 

They do make money from other sources, RX drugs as well as cocaine are big sources of income.  However they make the majority of their income from weed.

Legalization would likely not eliminate the cartels, but it would weaken them considerably.  Even if they managed to capture the entire black market in the US for RX drugs, Cocaine, Heroin and Meth (and meth is highly unlikely since it is easier for locals to produce it in most cases) this wouldn't be as large a market as the pot market.

[LMNO]

If a drug is socially accepted but not illegal  (alcohol, tobacco) it's not generally a gateway drug.

Are you INSANE?


A brief history of LMNO:

Underage drinking at 12

Drinking leads to smoking at 17, because all my drinking friends smoked.

That led to pot at 18, because all my drinking and smoking friends got high.

That led to speed, because some of my drinking/smoking/stoner friends were popping pills.

That led to LSD, Percosets, Coke, Crack (only twice), and all sorts of other shit because fuck -- at that point, why not?


Never did heroin, though.

[BabylonHoruv]

It is only a myth in as much as marijuana isn't the ONLY gateway drug.  But it certainly does serve as a gateway drug.  Gateway drugs have less to do with the drug itself and more to do with access.  Marijuana is a gateway drug because it is fairly easy for a young person to get.  All experimentation starts with drugs that are easy to get.  Inhalants and Rx are also gateway drugs, because a kid can get them right in their house without paying anybody for them.  These are particularily scary gateway drugs in that the first use can kill or cause serious brain damage.   

I'm still not sure what a gateway drug is. Do you mean a gateway drug is a drug that is easy to get? Could you please give a definition that I can apply that proves marijuana is a gateway drug but sugar isn't?

A gateway drug is a drug that the usage of which increases the likelihood of using other, harder drugs.

I think you'd have a hard time arguing for sugar as a gateway drug, although I do think it has caused more suffering on a widespread scale than any of the other white powders (being one of the major reasons for the triangle slave trade) sugar usage is so universal that you can't really identify a control group of non sugar users.  Heavy sugar usage is certainly linked with obesity, diabetes, tooth decay and other health problems, but I have never seen any studies that correlate it with the use of other drugs, aside from those medically perscribed to deal with those health problems.

In the US marijuana usage does nearly always precede the use of other, harder drugs.  I'd agree with the prevention community that it is, in fact, a gateway drug, because of the issue of access and the psychological barrier of having used illegal drugs.  Correlation does not equal causation and I suppose there is a decent arguement for it not being a gateway drug at all, but I don't think that particularly helps the arguement for legalization.

[BabylonHoruv]

I'm still not sure what a gateway drug is. Do you mean a gateway drug is a drug that is easy to get? Could you please give a definition that I can apply that proves marijuana is a gateway drug but sugar isn't?

Yes.  And as I stated marijuana isn't the only gateway drug, but it is one of the more popular ones amongst youth.  Rx drugs and inhalants are also gateway drugs, in that it is the drug that many youth will experiment with first.  It's basically the substance that is the gate between experimentation and regular use/dependency.  And generally, it is going to be your more easily accessible drugs.  It is rare you are going to see a kid start at cocaine or heroin.  Sugar is not a gateway drug because you don't see very many kids who move from regular sugar buzzes to injecting heroin in their arms.  

Now, caffeinated beverages (non-coffee) is another story, and probably another thread.  I do believe that has some gateway attributes and I predict 10 years from now, or sooner, we will see studies that link regular consumption of those beverages to other forms of drug use.  

I don't know about gateway attributes of caffeine,  I do know that caffeine abuse, by which I mean beyond even addiction where withdrawal is severe enough to cause migraine headaches, is a real problem.  An overdose of caffeine can stop the heart, it can also cause explosive vomiting and diorhea combined with hallucinations. 

Coffee and soda are not the usual intake method when this level of overdose is reached.  It's caffeine pills.  Kids to take these for an easy to get legal buzz and they have died from it.  I know it's been going on for at least 20~ years since when I was a teenager being counselled for alcohol and marijuana usage the counselor warned me about the effects of overdoses of caffeine.  Recognizing I suppose tat with my usual methods of escape removed I might branch out.

[BabylonHoruv]

I don't believe it should be determined by comparison to other drugs, but that it should be determined on its own merits.  Marijuana use does contribute to behavioral issues and can contribute to deaths as is indicated in statistics I posted earlier in the thread.  That some can use it safely, alone, IMO, does not give justification for legalization.  Much that some can use an automatic weapons safely, for recreational use, can justify legalizing the sale and ownership of such weapons.  (And no, I'm obviously aware of the differences in lethality of the two, but it is an appropriate analogy if we are looking at it through the personal freedom lens.)

The reason I think it should be compared to other drugs is that people tend to have a certain amount of time and money to devote to recreational drug use. Some people have a certain favorite, they're going to do that drug and not any other.  Most people though, especcially light drug users are going to use what is cheap and easily available.  Currently that's alcohol.

On a point by point comparison weed is less harmful to the user and less dangerous to the surrounding community than alcohol.  If it were equally expensive and equally available to alcohol it would steal some market share from alcohol and that would be a good thing.

[BabylonHoruv]

If a drug is socially accepted but not illegal  (alcohol, tobacco) it's not generally a gateway drug.

Are you INSANE?


A brief history of LMNO:

Underage drinking at 12

Drinking leads to smoking at 17, because all my drinking friends smoked.

That led to pot at 18, because all my drinking and smoking friends got high.

That led to speed, because some of my drinking/smoking/stoner friends were popping pills.

That led to LSD, Percosets, Coke, Crack (only twice), and all sorts of other shit because fuck -- at that point, why not?


Never did heroin, though.

RWHN hasn't mentioned alcohol once as a gateway drug, so I am going to assume that your experience was statistically abnormal.

[LMNO]

He hasn't mentioned it, because (in his words) "the toothpaste is already out of the tube" on that one.

[AFK]

I think it certainly can be considered a gateway drug.  Again, I think it's anything that is going to be easily accessible to a kid.  If mom and dad do a good job of locking up the Windex and the OxyCodone, but isn't too hot on locking up the Vodka, that's likely where a kid who wants to experiment is going to start.  And I should be clear that I don't think it really is all that important to focus on the gateway argument as involves marijuana and its illegality.  It is there, but I don't really view that as the prominent reason for keeping it illegal.  I don't look at it as this dam that is holding back the torrents of cocaine, heroin, meth, etc.  My stance is that the marijuana use and abuse itself is reason to not legalize the drug.  Irrespective of whether or not it leads to harder drug use.