Curious about a concept in the BIP

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The rival gangs quote is legit, I don't recall where its from right off, but I do recall that line from one of his books (or interviews... I dunno).

However, RAW never considered himself a 'founder', he was simply a Discordian that could make a buck on a good book, good joke or lecture circuit.

I'm often called upon to settle points of doctrine such as:

"Please tell So-and-So that He or She doesn't understand Discordianism and I do."

In the first place, how do you know that So-and-So doesn't understand Discordianism, if you don't even know what sex he or she is? And what is all this shit about who does or doesn't understand Discordianism? Who the hell cares? If Discordianism was meant to be understood it would be like Zen Buddhism. The greatest of all Discordians, Malaclypse the Younger, doesn't understand anything whatsoever about the religion he co-founded.

Only I Omar Khayyam Ravenhurst, Bullgoose of the Discordian Orthodoxy, can really tell you what its all about. And why should I? After all, I don't even know what sex you are. Moreover, Discordians are warned against personal contact with one another. Any theology to which I make significant contributions is going to attract plenty of screwballs.

Then again, if you want to spend the rest of your life arguing with some nut who believes that flying saucers are only the first wave, to be followed soon by flying cups that's your business. Why should I care if you get involved with the Manson family, or become a brainwashed zombie in a cult run by a crackpot who calls himself the nine-legged Jesus? 

Full Discordian Revelation Parts One and Two : http://youtu.be/nJHHDQ2i0kE

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.

Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.

[Don Coyote]

Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.

Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.

[BabylonHoruv]

The rival gangs quote is legit, I don't recall where its from right off, but I do recall that line from one of his books (or interviews... I dunno).

However, RAW never considered himself a 'founder', he was simply a Discordian that could make a buck on a good book, good joke or lecture circuit.

I'm often called upon to settle points of doctrine such as:

"Please tell So-and-So that He or She doesn't understand Discordianism and I do."

In the first place, how do you know that So-and-So doesn't understand Discordianism, if you don't even know what sex he or she is? And what is all this shit about who does or doesn't understand Discordianism? Who the hell cares? If Discordianism was meant to be understood it would be like Zen Buddhism. The greatest of all Discordians, Malaclypse the Younger, doesn't understand anything whatsoever about the religion he co-founded.

Only I Omar Khayyam Ravenhurst, Bullgoose of the Discordian Orthodoxy, can really tell you what its all about. And why should I? After all, I don't even know what sex you are. Moreover, Discordians are warned against personal contact with one another. Any theology to which I make significant contributions is going to attract plenty of screwballs.

Then again, if you want to spend the rest of your life arguing with some nut who believes that flying saucers are only the first wave, to be followed soon by flying cups that's your business. Why should I care if you get involved with the Manson family, or become a brainwashed zombie in a cult run by a crackpot who calls himself the nine-legged Jesus? 

Full Discordian Revelation Parts One and Two : http://youtu.be/nJHHDQ2i0kE

Important word bolded.

Now, does that mean they should be listened to like some sort of wise oracle or Wiccan Elder?  Fuck no.  Think for yourself.  They shouldn't even necessarially be respected, or paid any attention to. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.

Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.

Oh err... that may have come across wrong. Thornley had serious issues including his view that all living things should be sexual. The incident with his niece is certainly an example of badwrong by a guy with serious mental problems. The incident with the chair, is funny.

"I think Kerry was an omnivore sexually, he would have fucked a rhinoceros if he had the opportunity. (Maybe he did I don't know)." - Louise Lacy*

* from "The Prankster and the Conspiracy, by Adam Gorightly

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The rival gangs quote is legit, I don't recall where its from right off, but I do recall that line from one of his books (or interviews... I dunno).

However, RAW never considered himself a 'founder', he was simply a Discordian that could make a buck on a good book, good joke or lecture circuit.

I'm often called upon to settle points of doctrine such as:

"Please tell So-and-So that He or She doesn't understand Discordianism and I do."

In the first place, how do you know that So-and-So doesn't understand Discordianism, if you don't even know what sex he or she is? And what is all this shit about who does or doesn't understand Discordianism? Who the hell cares? If Discordianism was meant to be understood it would be like Zen Buddhism. The greatest of all Discordians, Malaclypse the Younger, doesn't understand anything whatsoever about the religion he co-founded.

Only I Omar Khayyam Ravenhurst, Bullgoose of the Discordian Orthodoxy, can really tell you what its all about. And why should I? After all, I don't even know what sex you are. Moreover, Discordians are warned against personal contact with one another. Any theology to which I make significant contributions is going to attract plenty of screwballs.

Then again, if you want to spend the rest of your life arguing with some nut who believes that flying saucers are only the first wave, to be followed soon by flying cups that's your business. Why should I care if you get involved with the Manson family, or become a brainwashed zombie in a cult run by a crackpot who calls himself the nine-legged Jesus? 

Full Discordian Revelation Parts One and Two : http://youtu.be/nJHHDQ2i0kE

Important words bolded.

[Don Coyote]

Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.

Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.

Oh err... that may have come across wrong. Thornley had serious issues including his view that all living things should be sexual. The incident with his niece is certainly an example of badwrong by a guy with serious mental problems. The incident with the chair, is funny.

"I think Kerry was an omnivore sexually, he would have fucked a rhinoceros if he had the opportunity. (Maybe he did I don't know)." - Louise Lacy*

* from "The Prankster and the Conspiracy, by Adam Gorightly

I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume it was a miscommunication due to the lack of inflection in text.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Roger, I have defended Wyldkat, I haven't kissed the ass of any other elder or member of TCC.  

Uh huh.

[Don Coyote]

Roger, I have defended Wyldkat, I haven't kissed the ass of any other elder or member of TCC.  

You've had a hardon for wk since forever. Don't fucking lie. You fucking sick fuck.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The rival gangs quote is legit, I don't recall where its from right off, but I do recall that line from one of his books (or interviews... I dunno).

However, RAW never considered himself a 'founder', he was simply a Discordian that could make a buck on a good book, good joke or lecture circuit.

I'm often called upon to settle points of doctrine such as:

"Please tell So-and-So that He or She doesn't understand Discordianism and I do."

In the first place, how do you know that So-and-So doesn't understand Discordianism, if you don't even know what sex he or she is? And what is all this shit about who does or doesn't understand Discordianism? Who the hell cares? If Discordianism was meant to be understood it would be like Zen Buddhism. The greatest of all Discordians, Malaclypse the Younger, doesn't understand anything whatsoever about the religion he co-founded.

Only I Omar Khayyam Ravenhurst, Bullgoose of the Discordian Orthodoxy, can really tell you what its all about. And why should I? After all, I don't even know what sex you are. Moreover, Discordians are warned against personal contact with one another. Any theology to which I make significant contributions is going to attract plenty of screwballs.

Then again, if you want to spend the rest of your life arguing with some nut who believes that flying saucers are only the first wave, to be followed soon by flying cups that's your business. Why should I care if you get involved with the Manson family, or become a brainwashed zombie in a cult run by a crackpot who calls himself the nine-legged Jesus? 

Full Discordian Revelation Parts One and Two : http://youtu.be/nJHHDQ2i0kE

Important word bolded.

Now, does that mean they should be listened to like some sort of wise oracle or Wiccan Elder?  Fuck no.  Think for yourself.  They shouldn't even necessarially be respected, or paid any attention to. 

How the hell does that in any way indicate that Robert Anton Wilson is a co-founder of Discordianism? Kerry Thornley and Greg Hill wrote the Principia Discordia. RAW had nothing to do with it; he just riffed off some prank letters they wrote to Playboy when he was an editor there.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Thornley was a shady ass character. He had some weird proclivities... from fucking a chair to once being caught doing something questionable with his eight-year-old niece. No way I'm going to identify myself with that guy, even if he said some cool shit.

Yeah, fucking chairs is immoral.

Oh err... that may have come across wrong. Thornley had serious issues including his view that all living things should be sexual. The incident with his niece is certainly an example of badwrong by a guy with serious mental problems. The incident with the chair, is funny.

"I think Kerry was an omnivore sexually, he would have fucked a rhinoceros if he had the opportunity. (Maybe he did I don't know)." - Louise Lacy*

* from "The Prankster and the Conspiracy, by Adam Gorightly

I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume it was a miscommunication due to the lack of inflection in text.

I'm not quite willing to grant him that much.

[Wyldkat]

All this thread was about was a similarity I noticed between what I had learned over the years in my study of shamanism (only brought shamanism up because that's where I learned it) and a concept I had read here on PD.  I did my research before posting, read the BIP and PD which seemed to confirm what I had previously noticed, so I posted hoping that someone who was more well versed in the subject from the Discordian end would be willing to do some compare contrast so that I could get a better handle on all of it.

Perhaps your "confirmation" is a result of you falling victim to the Law of Fives.  You are filtering out that which would invalidate your theory that BIP = Shamanism. 

I am absolutely not trying to say that BIP = shamanism.  What I did say was that one concept I saw on this site and then found echoed in the BIP is similar to one that I have learned in my study of shamamism.  I'm trying to see how far this holds true and what differences there are.  The differences and similarities between different paths/schools of thought interest me, always have.

Also, to those who say the BIP wasn't intended to teach, any written or spoken word can teach even if that is not the intent of the author or speaker.  Shedding light on a subject is a method of teaching a person about it.

Except you seemed to be using the word "teach" as in "to instruct".  That we were telling the reader how to do something.  We weren't.  I think it is made fairly clear throughout the book that intent was more to be a cold splash of water to the face.  The idea wasn't to say, "Hey, you're fucking up and this is how you should be doing it."  It was more, "You do realize you are fucking up right?  Pay attention and look at your options!"

I think you might be misinterpreting my use of the word "teach."  That last section in quotations falls very much under my idea of what teaching can entail.

[LMNO]

Ok, I'll wade trudge through here.

First off,
"The world's greatest fool may say the Sun is shining, but that doesn't make it dark out."  - EY, Less Wrong.

WK, you have noticed that some aspect of your shamanism/neoshamanism beliefs seem to fit in with one aspect of the BIP (don't forget, there's the biological half as well as the psychologial).  You're confused as to why we would trash shamanism, if they have a similar belief.

Well, the bible says this (Proverbs 1):

20 Out in the open wisdom calls aloud,
  she raises her voice in the public square;
21 on top of the wall she cries out,
  at the city gate she makes her speech:
22 "How long will you who are simple love your simple ways?
  How long will mockers delight in mockery
  and fools hate knowledge?
23 Repent at my rebuke!
  Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
  I will make known to you my teachings.
24 But since you refuse to listen when I call
  and no one pays attention when I stretch out my hand,
25 since you disregard all my advice
  and do not accept my rebuke,
26 I in turn will laugh when disaster strikes you;
  I will mock when calamity overtakes you—
27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
  when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
  when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
  they will look for me but will not find me,
29 since they hated knowledge.

Which certainly aligns with my understanding of Discordia.  But does that mean I should not mock the Christians?  Of course not.  Because while there may be a common element to be found (and RWHN was right for calling out the Lo5 on some of that), the underlying belief systems are wildly disparate.

Shamanism, and the neoshamanism that followed, seems to be primarily concerned with, and revolves around, communication and access with some sort of hidden "Spirit World", and concocts elaborate rituals and sometimes ingests chemicals to reach it.  Dress up the language all you want, but that's what the intent is.  And my brand of Discordia rejects that wholeheartedly.  My brand of Discordia believes in Fermions, Bosons and Gluons.  My brand of Discordia believes that so-called "trancendent" mental states are self-reflecting and physical.  There is no "Spirit World" to contact.  The "Spirit World" is another bar in the BIP, not the BIP itself.  

You might argue that you personally consider the "Spirit World" to be a metaphor.  But that would mean you're not practicing Shamanism, you're engaged in psychological self-deception, intentionally deluding yourself.  Which my Discordia also rejects.  My Discordia seeks to remove layers of deceit to reveal underlying thought processes and patterns, not to add additional piles of bullshit onto an already unstable mental system.  Because, as we have repeatedly found out, any time someone develops a metaphor, someone will always try to stretch and manipulate it to the breaking point, until it becomes useless and meaningless (often known as the "PD Principle").  So my understanding of the BIP includes the understanding that it is itself an imperfect model, whereas your offshoot neoshamanistic insight is considered a Truth.



But what do I know?  I only coined the term.*












*Stole it from PKD and used it for my own defarious purposes, more like.

[LMNO]

Incidentally, if you want a more poetic interpretation of Discordia/BIP, check out The Chao Te Ching.