REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I think it's important to have these debates, not necessarily to change anyone's mind, but for greater awareness of issues you might not have thought about without engaging with those who disagree. Participating in heated discussions like this also can provide insight into your own beliefs and values in ways that are not immediately apparent to observers.

I know a lot of people feel threads like this are useless or pointless, and maybe they are for you. But I'm curious what your criteria is for a "useful" debate thread.

edit: Also, debating involves skills that atrophy without use. It's not often that you run into such an intelligent and tenacious opponent such as RWHN, so I see this as a rare opportunity.

Thanks for being awesome, RWHN.

[AFK]

The one thing I will say is that though I've always been aware of how some consequences of the laws can be excessively punitive, this thread at least has made me thing about what I can do in my work to help address some of those issues.  It is actually something I'm beginning to work on at a school level where I'm trying to get the school districts to reassess their substance abuse policies and think about where the punishments may be counterproductive. 

[BabylonHoruv]

I believe that we will find out that the benefits to society (and especially to children) of legalizing marijuana will far outweigh the alleged benefits of criminalizing it.

Go, Washington State, go!

Yup. I understand RWHN's position but I just haven't seen any evidence that legalization will lead to a large enough increase in use to outweigh the hundreds of thousands of lives that WONT be ruined and the billions of dollars that WONT be wasted on corrupt and ineffective law enforcement.

Consider this.  The adolescent population in the United States is 40 Million.  Let's say there is just a 1% increase in adolescents who become regular users of marijuana after it is legalized.  That would be 400,000 kids.  You were saying about hundreds of thousands of lives being ruined? 

That's you equating use and abuse.  even regular use isn't the same as abuse.

Also, even if they become complete pothead wasters, being a pothead waster is better than being in prison, and it's also better than having drug cartels running your neighborhood.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The one thing I will say is that though I've always been aware of how some consequences of the laws can be excessively punitive, this thread at least has made me thing about what I can do in my work to help address some of those issues.  It is actually something I'm beginning to work on at a school level where I'm trying to get the school districts to reassess their substance abuse policies and think about where the punishments may be counterproductive. 

I'm glad to hear this.

[BabylonHoruv]

My opinions are bold, not strong.

Opinions

See?

Heh. You certainly do have opinions built in experience. But I wonder, how much of your map (or anyone in this thread) actually matches the territory? You see things that others don't, being in your position, but how much of what you read from the ivory tower of academia (being in academia currently, I can say this) is colored by cognitive bias?

Because when I read these discussions, I become confused. I become confused, because I'm having trouble fitting map to territory, distinguishing reality from fiction. Here we have educated people on all sides attacking this problem of Cannabis from different directions, with different reasons for being interested in the problem, and those interests are going to color whatever evidence they choose to exhibit. Your interest is in the well being of young adults and children, and therefore, whatever evidence you present will be aimed at that element. Lots of little pictures from lots of different people.

And of course, there are big answers and solutions. Humans are not that disparate in psychology and physiology that there would not be. So, either what everyone here is saying is true, or some of it is false, or all of it is false (doubtful). And the solution may be one of these, or a partial synthesis of these, or none of these, but THIS is clear. Somebody's conclusion is wrong, somebody's answers and solutions are wrong. If there are right solutions, that means there are wrong solutions as well. If there are good answers, then there are bad answers.

Which ones are good or bad? I certainly can't tell fuck all from this thread. And I doubt anyone else without a bold opinion can tell either.

And I certainly don't fault you for defending yourself and your work, RWHN. I just think this thread is otherwise useless.

I think the thread is useful, even for those that are entrenched in our positions.  It gives RWHN a better view of the legalization crowd, and perspectives that he might otherwise not be exposed to that he ca use both in persuading kids not to use drugs and in arguing with others who may be less entrenched.   It does the same for those of us arguing for legalization.  We may not convince one another, but we are helping one another convince others by showing each other the sorts of assumptions the other side is operating under.

I managed to convince an elderly Christian lady that we should legalize, and I credit the discussions in this thread for that success.

[AFK]

I believe that we will find out that the benefits to society (and especially to children) of legalizing marijuana will far outweigh the alleged benefits of criminalizing it.

Go, Washington State, go!

Yup. I understand RWHN's position but I just haven't seen any evidence that legalization will lead to a large enough increase in use to outweigh the hundreds of thousands of lives that WONT be ruined and the billions of dollars that WONT be wasted on corrupt and ineffective law enforcement.

Consider this.  The adolescent population in the United States is 40 Million.  Let's say there is just a 1% increase in adolescents who become regular users of marijuana after it is legalized.  That would be 400,000 kids.  You were saying about hundreds of thousands of lives being ruined? 

That's you equating use and abuse.  even regular use isn't the same as abuse.

Also, even if they become complete pothead wasters, being a pothead waster is better than being in prison, and it's also better than having drug cartels running your neighborhood.

What would be even better is NOT having that increase at all and those 400,000 kids doing good in school and finding natural (non-chemical) and creative ways to feel better about themselves and to express themselves.  Avoid the false slack and go clear-headed into the world and grab and hold on to some genuine Slack. 

[trix]

When minors get caught drinking they generally don't go to jail, get stuck with a criminal record, and get barred for life from receiving financial aid.

You keep making these completely useless (and frankly, terrible) analogies. It makes it hard to believe you're really thinking about this from a standpoint of rational open-mindedness.

I wasn't making an analogy.  I was simply reminding trix, in a obviously sarcastic manner, that legalizing marijuana would only be for adults.  Therefore, there still would be charges a minor could face associated with possessing and distributing marijuana to others.  Undoubtedly charges that would go on a criminal record.  Basically, I'm just pointing out that of all the points that can be made to justify marijuana legalization, the one that trix gave doesn't hold up. 

I would further add that any kind of legislation that ever legalizes, or decriminalizes, marijuana is going to come with some other adjustments in law enforcement.  Because any legislation that passes to legalize marijuana is going to have to be a compromise between the two sides.  I would fully expect, and hope, that this compromise would include some very hefty charges for dealing or distributing to minors, as well as some very hefty charges for anyone who knowingly or willingly hosts a party where minors are present and where marijuana is being distributed.  I mean, there's no way that doesn't happen.  Those laws will invariably ensnare some young adults and very likely make their futures a bit more difficult. 

Granted, this is a hypothetical but I really don't see how marijuana is legalized without these kind of adjustments.  While public sentiment may be moving towards decriminalization and legalization, it hasn't moved that much. 

  I am aware that marijuana would still be illegal for children to consume, at least I certainly hope so.  However, my point was that if marijuana was no longer considered a banned substance, I doubt it would be considered criminal for a child to possess it.  A fine, certainly, much as possession of tobacco or alcohol underage results in a fine, but not the kind of permanent record no financial aid total fuckery that happens today.  I figured you'd see what I meant rather than arguing the semantics, but I guess not.

  Also, possessing more an an ounce of marijuana is automatically considered dealing.  Therein lies another problem, as marijuana prices drop VERY quickly with higher quantities.  So, I have way too often seen someone buy a little more than usual, say a QP (four ounces), to last awhile because doing so saves them a couple HUNDRED dollars compared to just buying the usual oz.  That's not even a big step up in quantity, but a GIANT money saving step.

  If you could buy a carton of cigarettes for $20 or one pack at a time for $5-6 each, most people would buy by the carton.  On cigs the price doesn't scale like that, but on marijuana it DOES.  However, I've seen too many people get popped with that QP or whatever is left from it, and get totally fucked for "dealing" though they've never sold before in their life. 

  The last time I seen that it was a family man, wife and daughter, responsible, hard working, contributing member of society.  Liked to smoke a bowl with his wife after putting the kid to bed, to unwind from a long day.  He'd save money and constant trips to pick up marijuana by buying a QP at a time.  He figured saving a couple hundred as well as having far fewer car trips with weed was a smart idea.  Turns out, he was very wrong.  He got "lucky" and only landed a year in jail and four years of probation, but that's a year his wife and daughter had to fend for themselves, that's a good job he lost, a felony on his record, and a guarantee he wont be able to go to college and try to overcome his felony handicap in the job market.  This is fair?

edited for readability

[BabylonHoruv]

I believe that we will find out that the benefits to society (and especially to children) of legalizing marijuana will far outweigh the alleged benefits of criminalizing it.

Go, Washington State, go!

Yup. I understand RWHN's position but I just haven't seen any evidence that legalization will lead to a large enough increase in use to outweigh the hundreds of thousands of lives that WONT be ruined and the billions of dollars that WONT be wasted on corrupt and ineffective law enforcement.

Consider this.  The adolescent population in the United States is 40 Million.  Let's say there is just a 1% increase in adolescents who become regular users of marijuana after it is legalized.  That would be 400,000 kids.  You were saying about hundreds of thousands of lives being ruined? 

That's you equating use and abuse.  even regular use isn't the same as abuse.

Also, even if they become complete pothead wasters, being a pothead waster is better than being in prison, and it's also better than having drug cartels running your neighborhood.

What would be even better is NOT having that increase at all and those 400,000 kids doing good in school and finding natural (non-chemical) and creative ways to feel better about themselves and to express themselves.  Avoid the false slack and go clear-headed into the world and grab and hold on to some genuine Slack. 

I dunno, these are kids that become regular users of marijuana, just because it is legal. They already don't exactly strike me as independent thinkers.

[AFK]

I'm sorry, whether you agree with the law or not, I think exposing your family to that kind of risk is highly irresponsible.  I just can't fathom how it is THAT important.  I have to assume this guy was fully aware of the law and the potential consequences of his actions if he was caught, yes?  I understand someone disagreeing with the law, I understanding having a certain level of passion for wanting marijuana legalized, but I don't know, personally speaking, my first responsibility before any other responsibility is to my family.  If it was a law that was keeping me from feeding my family or providing the basic necessities of life, I can see it.  But to take that risk for drugs?  I just can't understand how it is THAT important.  

[AFK]

I believe that we will find out that the benefits to society (and especially to children) of legalizing marijuana will far outweigh the alleged benefits of criminalizing it.

Go, Washington State, go!

Yup. I understand RWHN's position but I just haven't seen any evidence that legalization will lead to a large enough increase in use to outweigh the hundreds of thousands of lives that WONT be ruined and the billions of dollars that WONT be wasted on corrupt and ineffective law enforcement.

Consider this.  The adolescent population in the United States is 40 Million.  Let's say there is just a 1% increase in adolescents who become regular users of marijuana after it is legalized.  That would be 400,000 kids.  You were saying about hundreds of thousands of lives being ruined? 

That's you equating use and abuse.  even regular use isn't the same as abuse.

Also, even if they become complete pothead wasters, being a pothead waster is better than being in prison, and it's also better than having drug cartels running your neighborhood.

What would be even better is NOT having that increase at all and those 400,000 kids doing good in school and finding natural (non-chemical) and creative ways to feel better about themselves and to express themselves.  Avoid the false slack and go clear-headed into the world and grab and hold on to some genuine Slack. 

I dunno, these are kids that become regular users of marijuana, just because it is legal. They already don't exactly strike me as independent thinkers.

Well, kids are kids.  They aren't fully equipped to make adult decisions.  That's why of course we have laws such as the age of consent.  And my argument for the increase in use would be more linked to the increased social access, not so much as a direct result of the legal status.  In other words, they have more people in their social circle and familial circle with access to the drug so they have more exposure to it. 

So the family man who IS responsible and doesn't keep loads of the stuff at home now can because it is legal.  That's where many of the 400,000 (or whatever the number would be) would be coming from.  Kids are risk takers and they are curious but at young ages they aren't going to be terribly elaborate in their schemes to explore those risks.  That's why you see inhalant abuse and prescription drug abuse so high in young ages.  Because they are substances that are right there in the home.  Easy to get a hold of. 

[BabylonHoruv]

I'm sorry, whether you agree with the law or not, I think exposing your family to that kind of risk is highly irresponsible.  I just can't fathom how it is THAT important.  I have to assume this guy was fully aware of the law and the potential consequences of his actions if he was caught, yes?  I understand someone disagreeing with the law, I understanding having a certain level of passion for wanting marijuana legalized, but I don't know, personally speaking, my first responsibility before any other responsibility is to my family.  If it was a law that was keeping me from feeding my family or providing the basic necessities of life, I can see it.  But to take that risk for drugs?  I just can't understand how it is THAT important.  

Considering that he was not dealing and had no intention of dealing it's quite likely he had no idea that he'd be hit with distribution charges.

[Elder Iptuous]

...
So the family man who IS responsible and doesn't keep loads of the stuff at home now can because it is legal.  That's where many of the 400,000 (or whatever the number would be) would be coming from.  Kids are risk takers and they are curious but at young ages they aren't going to be terribly elaborate in their schemes to explore those risks.  That's why you see inhalant abuse and prescription drug abuse so high in young ages.  Because they are substances that are right there in the home.  Easy to get a hold of. 

and yet, we don't feel the need to ban those substances.
it is the responsibility of the parent to keep the kids from getting into them, no?

[trix]

I'm sorry, whether you agree with the law or not, I think exposing your family to that kind of risk is highly irresponsible.  I just can't fathom how it is THAT important.  I have to assume this guy was fully aware of the law and the potential consequences of his actions if he was caught, yes?  I understand someone disagreeing with the law, I understanding having a certain level of passion for wanting marijuana legalized, but I don't know, personally speaking, my first responsibility before any other responsibility is to my family.  If it was a law that was keeping me from feeding my family or providing the basic necessities of life, I can see it.  But to take that risk for drugs?  I just can't understand how it is THAT important.  

I can only make assumptions, but knowing him, I'd imagine a big part of it was the assumption that he wouldn't get caught.  I mean, the guy had smoked for years, knew the people he dealt with well, and figured the worst that would happen is he got a ticket.  Most of the time he'd be right, had he been caught with less than an oz it would've only been a (pretty expensive) ticket, and they'd let him go.  I don't think he realized that by going for the QP he was risking being considered a dealer.  He probably figured he had to actually deal marijuana to be considered a marijuana dealer.

This was a guy who thought he was making the responsible decision, by choosing to unwind via marijuana, rather than alcohol like his dad did.  Instead of getting drunk and mean and slapping his family around, like his dad, he got hungry and relaxed and laughed a little more.  Could he have been even more responsible? sure.  But hindsight is 20/20.

[AFK]

I'm sorry, whether you agree with the law or not, I think exposing your family to that kind of risk is highly irresponsible.  I just can't fathom how it is THAT important.  I have to assume this guy was fully aware of the law and the potential consequences of his actions if he was caught, yes?  I understand someone disagreeing with the law, I understanding having a certain level of passion for wanting marijuana legalized, but I don't know, personally speaking, my first responsibility before any other responsibility is to my family.  If it was a law that was keeping me from feeding my family or providing the basic necessities of life, I can see it.  But to take that risk for drugs?  I just can't understand how it is THAT important.  

Considering that he was not dealing and had no intention of dealing it's quite likely he had no idea that he'd be hit with distribution charges.

Okay so he's not irresponsible, he's just an idiot.  

[AFK]

...
So the family man who IS responsible and doesn't keep loads of the stuff at home now can because it is legal.  That's where many of the 400,000 (or whatever the number would be) would be coming from.  Kids are risk takers and they are curious but at young ages they aren't going to be terribly elaborate in their schemes to explore those risks.  That's why you see inhalant abuse and prescription drug abuse so high in young ages.  Because they are substances that are right there in the home.  Easy to get a hold of. 

and yet, we don't feel the need to ban those substances.
it is the responsibility of the parent to keep the kids from getting into them, no?

Well they aren't banned because they aren't intended to be recreational drugs.  They have utility as something other than a drug.

And let's just side-step the obvious next part of the discussion and recognize that there are medical marijuana laws on the books in several states across the country including my own.  While I'm not exactly doing back flips over the idea it is certainly far better than legalizing the substance completely.