The meaning of life - as communicated to me by Eris herself

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Why do you want to leave the fucked up sickos out of it? They're every bit as much a fact of reality as earthquakes and car crashes, and far more likely to affect the average person. It seems pointless to even have a conversation about suffering if you're not going to take the fucked up sickos into account.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also, if we are leaving out fucked up sickos, are we also leaving out war?

[Triple Zero]

I wish I could help you! The world is a hard place to navigate. B and I
have been talking a lot lately about sadness, and how to manage it...
it's hard to get easy with sitting with it and just feeling it, and at
first it feels like it will be overwhelming, but it does help to do it.

Some people believe that everything happens for a reason. I don't; I
think that unhappy people do terrible things to other people, and there
is no reason, and no greater good. People treat the people they love
with cruelty, and there is no greater good. Famines happen, and there is
no greater good.

Sometimes, though, people do amazingly good things in the aftermath of a
terrible thing. It's not because it was meant be, to make them a better
person, or because they deserved it, or because they chose it, but
because if we can find the strength, we survive and grow and help other
people. I have to look for the happiness, because without it I'm
immobilized, ineffective. People do terrible things to each other, but
they do beautiful things too. When you strip us down we're just soft
warm vulnerable little animals.

Life has been hard, but it has made me resilient. None of the bad
happened to me for a reason, but I'm alive. My grief runs deep, but I
also have intense joy, because being able to touch my joy is the gift
that allowed me to survive. I'm often sad, but I'm also increasingly
aware that happiness is the thing that frees people and gives them the
strength to be good to each other, and if I can be happy and help people
to love themselves and be happy, then I'm doing the most good I can
possibly do. You may get so caught up in other people's suffering that
you forget that you deserve happiness too, but you do, just for being alive.

That was beautiful, thank you for posting that

I also liked P3NT's addition to it, it actually seems to agree with that (apart from the leaving out sickos, bit perhaps)

The interesting thing for me is that this logic dictates that we should make it as hard as we can for our families and friends but basic human nature makes that ridiculous. Unless you're one of the fucked up sickos, that is. That's a paradox to me - we strive for this utopia that is actually the worst thing that could happen to us.

is it that bad of a paradox, though?

Think of a computer game, what you seem to be saying is that, you're enjoying playing it so much, the worst possible thing that could happen is that you finish the game!

Except that I'm pretty sure the human game has no real end-condition, so I wouldn't worry about that too much. Except perhaps the Brave New World scenario?

[Eartha-ly Delights]

Some of the most inspiring people I've met or read about have been through things that I couldn't even imagine but it's make or break. One person may come out of an experience kick-ass cool and another might roll over and die. Kinda where I was going with the OP - it aint some kind of safe-environment day trip, it's fucking tough and only the tough survive but that's life.

I've been through shit most people can't imagine and I may be a stronger person for it, but not necessarily a better or happier person. I can understand rolling over and dying, honestly.

I guess I have a problem with the idea that suffering makes you happier or better because I'm on the other side of that, and just, no. It's a little too close to "everything happens for a reason" and other vapid platitudes that are designed to make people feel better about a world that is just fucking brutal and monstrous.

You know what's awesome? Well-adjusted people who have dealt with challenges but never suffered from trauma. It's amazing how people like that are usually pretty nice to each other, and don't beat or rape each other or kill themselves with drugs.

I know what you mean. Trauma's a thief. It steals from you the one thing you can never really get back; the person you were meant to be. Maybe the person you become is a great person. Better in some ways than the person you were supposed to become. Stronger and more humane. Maybe even with empathy born of suffering. It's possible that you might develop insight and creativity that without that trauma, that loss, that suffering....you may never have found within you.

But that's because it's not you anymore. Not at any rate the you that you had expected to be. You grow up you know and you have this gradually emerging idea of yourself....of who and what you are....of what your dreams might be....of how you'll live your life. And why. You are, without even being conscious of it, moving in a certain direction...finding an orientation, getting your sea legs I guess for the journey of your life.  Then wham....some fucked up thing or some fucked up one leaps out in your path and screws up that carefully drawn map so badly that you don't even recognise it anymore, when you see it. All torn up and dirty around your feet. You certainly can't navigate your way anywhere with it now.

And so a new person grows to cope with the mess. Because human beings seem so determined to survive somehow. Like a Custodian or something. Needed and useful, but not necessarily the sort of person you'd have chosen to be.

And this new person is often very capable. She goes about clearing the decks. Making sure the neighbours don't get upset about looking out and seeing the carnage in the yard. The ruins of the person who used to live in you. Because she knows, like you know,  how ugly that is. And that if people saw it...they'd turn from it in horror. Like a burns victim...you don't want to look away from them, but you have to. It's just too hard to look.

So now you're in some new cosmetic cover. She's made you a veneer to disguise the scars that got left when the old you moved out so suddenly. When that bastard fate kicked the you out of you. Now no one but you and she can see the exit wound. She's built you this presentable facade to show to the outside world. But it's always a disguise that someone else made for you to wear.

You got a whole new identity. Bought for you by whatever force nearly pushed you off the edge of the world and made to measure for you by whatever force stopped you dropping off it. But the pisser is, since no one ever asked you if it fit properly or if the cut of it suited you, you're never comfortable in the new you. Not the way people can be comfortable when they were left alone to design their own pattern for life.

I more than admire those people who got to be the ones they were supposed to be. I envy them. I'm twisted up and green with envy over how comfortable they look with themselves. The peace they find in their own thoughts; in their own company. I seek them out, just to observe them and feel the wonder of it. Normality. Wow. What a concept. They seem so at home when they're just with themselves. Like they know that person really well and actually quite like them.

You're right. Those people are fucking amazing. And I'm pretty sure the world would be a lot better off if there were a few more like them in it.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I like your take on a different person taking over. Never really looked at it that way before. As for the people who never been tested, sure I envy them a bit but, deep down inside I wouldn't want to be them. I admire strength, bravery, courage and the ability to keep going when all else have thrown in the towel and come out the other end smiling. People who are and have always been happy and contented? I see nothing there that impresses me. I'm not saying they can't be really cool people and I'd get on fine with them but admire? Nothing admirable about having it easy from where I'm standing.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Some of the most inspiring people I've met or read about have been through things that I couldn't even imagine but it's make or break. One person may come out of an experience kick-ass cool and another might roll over and die. Kinda where I was going with the OP - it aint some kind of safe-environment day trip, it's fucking tough and only the tough survive but that's life.

I've been through shit most people can't imagine and I may be a stronger person for it, but not necessarily a better or happier person. I can understand rolling over and dying, honestly.

I guess I have a problem with the idea that suffering makes you happier or better because I'm on the other side of that, and just, no. It's a little too close to "everything happens for a reason" and other vapid platitudes that are designed to make people feel better about a world that is just fucking brutal and monstrous.

You know what's awesome? Well-adjusted people who have dealt with challenges but never suffered from trauma. It's amazing how people like that are usually pretty nice to each other, and don't beat or rape each other or kill themselves with drugs.

I know what you mean. Trauma's a thief. It steals from you the one thing you can never really get back; the person you were meant to be. Maybe the person you become is a great person. Better in some ways than the person you were supposed to become. Stronger and more humane. Maybe even with empathy born of suffering. It's possible that you might develop insight and creativity that without that trauma, that loss, that suffering....you may never have found within you.

But that's because it's not you anymore. Not at any rate the you that you had expected to be. You grow up you know and you have this gradually emerging idea of yourself....of who and what you are....of what your dreams might be....of how you'll live your life. And why. You are, without even being conscious of it, moving in a certain direction...finding an orientation, getting your sea legs I guess for the journey of your life.  Then wham....some fucked up thing or some fucked up one leaps out in your path and screws up that carefully drawn map so badly that you don't even recognise it anymore, when you see it. All torn up and dirty around your feet. You certainly can't navigate your way anywhere with it now.

And so a new person grows to cope with the mess. Because human beings seem so determined to survive somehow. Like a Custodian or something. Needed and useful, but not necessarily the sort of person you'd have chosen to be.

And this new person is often very capable. She goes about clearing the decks. Making sure the neighbours don't get upset about looking out and seeing the carnage in the yard. The ruins of the person who used to live in you. Because she knows, like you know,  how ugly that is. And that if people saw it...they'd turn from it in horror. Like a burns victim...you don't want to look away from them, but you have to. It's just too hard to look.

So now you're in some new cosmetic cover. She's made you a veneer to disguise the scars that got left when the old you moved out so suddenly. When that bastard fate kicked the you out of you. Now no one but you and she can see the exit wound. She's built you this presentable facade to show to the outside world. But it's always a disguise that someone else made for you to wear.

You got a whole new identity. Bought for you by whatever force nearly pushed you off the edge of the world and made to measure for you by whatever force stopped you dropping off it. But the pisser is, since no one ever asked you if it fit properly or if the cut of it suited you, you're never comfortable in the new you. Not the way people can be comfortable when they were left alone to design their own pattern for life.

I more than admire those people who got to be the ones they were supposed to be. I envy them. I'm twisted up and green with envy over how comfortable they look with themselves. The peace they find in their own thoughts; in their own company. I seek them out, just to observe them and feel the wonder of it. Normality. Wow. What a concept. They seem so at home when they're just with themselves. Like they know that person really well and actually quite like them.

You're right. Those people are fucking amazing. And I'm pretty sure the world would be a lot better off if there were a few more like them in it.

I like this. A lot.

I don't dislike the person I've become, but it's taken a lot for me to start to love her, because part of what was taken from me was my sense of being valuable. It's hard to believe that anyone would do those things to someone who is valuable.

[P3nT4gR4m]

BTW Nigel - I meant to post earlier, in answer to your "fucked up sickos" question. Made me think long and hard. I don't have an answer. Currently in the process of rethinking my shit. Pls to consider my opinions so far as applying only to me. I've embraced my experiences - the ends more than justified the means but maybe that's not the same for everyone. Thanks for putting me straight

[Doktor Howl]

The meaning of life:  One shitburger after another, until you learn.  Then, another shitburger.

[Eartha-ly Delights]

I like this. A lot.

I don't dislike the person I've become, but it's taken a lot for me to start to love her, because part of what was taken from me was my sense of being valuable. It's hard to believe that anyone would do those things to someone who is valuable.
[/quote]


It certainly is. That's why I get shitty with people who say "Oh suffering and trauma bring with them strength of  character."

No they don't. They bring with them neuroses, insecurities, complexes and a series of bad choices relating to interpersonal relationships.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I like this. A lot.

I don't dislike the person I've become, but it's taken a lot for me to start to love her, because part of what was taken from me was my sense of being valuable. It's hard to believe that anyone would do those things to someone who is valuable.

It certainly is. That's why I get shitty with people who say "Oh suffering and trauma bring with them strength of  character."

No they don't. They bring with them neuroses, insecurities, complexes and a series of bad choices relating to interpersonal relationships.

Sadly, yes. And maybe at the other end of it a good person, but not an inherently "better" person, and more often than not a less happy person, not a more happy one.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

BTW Nigel - I meant to post earlier, in answer to your "fucked up sickos" question. Made me think long and hard. I don't have an answer. Currently in the process of rethinking my shit. Pls to consider my opinions so far as applying only to me. I've embraced my experiences - the ends more than justified the means but maybe that's not the same for everyone. Thanks for putting me straight

Thank you.