Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Although your observations, as a white person, have relevance, they are only observations, so there is really no way for you to relate the experience of being a non-white Norwegian, any more than I can relate the experience of being an American man. I would love it if there was someone here to speak for themselves on what it's like to be a brown person in Norway, but there isn't. Unless you can get one of your non-white friends to come here and post...

That shouldn't be too hard.

That would be AWESOME!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Another hilarious thing that someone (my ex-husband, in fact) once said to me was "You're basically culturally white". I've heard similar sentiments (in the form of the belief that dominant culture is inherently imbued with a race) expressed many times in many different ways and it never fails to be mind-bogglingly offensive on a cornucopic multitude of levels.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

It's funny, because that kind of racist reaction even applies if you're black. I have it, other black people have it. It's weird as fuck.

I'm just catching up to this thread now, so I'll probably have a few in a row posts before I catch up to myself.

I have a friend from high school who I recently got in contact with (went to my first Type O Negative concert with him), who is black. He had some sort of comment to this. It was something like, "black people shoot each other because they know each other and there's some stupid reason for it. I don't know why white people are so afraid, you're the insane fuckers that shoot multiple random people for no apparent reason."

He also had this gem, "I don't know why we were called colored people when your the ones who change colors. You turn red when you're drunk, blue when you're cold, green when you're sick...."

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I'm glad that people have found this thread interesting/thought-provoking. I especially appreciate that people are using it as a stepping-off point for imagining what it is like to have race be an ever-present factor. When my ex and I lived in Oakland, he made a comment that stuck with me... he said it was the first time in his life that he was a minority, and it made him conscious of being white.

Waffle Iron, I wish we had a non-white European on the board so that we could get a sense for whether race is as much a non-issue for them as it is for you.

I imagine that it depends on the European country and the non-white background in question. I don't see things being terribly different in England than it is in America, except that you have the whole Empire thing going on and, iirc, racism directed towards Indians and Pakistanis as much as anything else. As far as what I've observed within Ireland, prejudice was often directed prior to the economic boom towards Scottish and Protestants (mostly just badmouthing), and then after the economic boom, towards Eastern Europeans and Indians, and maybe a befuddled chuckle at a Brazilian area. I didn't get a sense that it was so much a race thing so much as, "what are all of these non-Irish people doing here if they're not tourists?" Or, as my grandfather put it, "They're all over the place" when I mentioned seeing a Polish and a Hindi section at the local library.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I'm still kinda collecting my thoughts on this. Perspectives change over time too.

At this point, I generally think of people along what they self-identify as. As far as white people go, I don't think of them as white, or of whiteness, but I do think of them as this or that, as opposed to, or just like, me. For example, my drummer self-identifies as Italian, and he acts as much as an Italian as I do an Irishman. And yet, he's just as Irish as he is Italian (a quarter). It bothers me when people refer to their background as white. It makes me wonder if they're a crazy racist, since I'm used to white people, no matter how Americanized, identifying with one or two European backgrounds. I just don't like it as a label of any sort, unless it's used as self-mockery.

I'll also do the same thing for black people if they identify with a particular culture. If they're Haitian, I think of them as Haitian as opposed to black, Trinadadian if they're Trinidadian, etc. Irish if they're from Ireland, English if they're from England (Phil Lynnott and Robbie Gee respectively, for example). It tells a more accurate story, and gives a little more nuance to their own experiences and perceptions (apparently, at least for a while, African Americans in Boston really did not like other black people if they came from the Caribbean). However, if I don't know, I do default to thinking of them as black. Or Asian if they're Asian. I don't like it but, yeah "white" is the default.

I think I'm going to have to mull over this some more.

[Freeky]

I had a thought about those all some-group groups (women, gay, black, etc).  I'm pretty sure if someone not of the group's demographic asked to join (at least in America), they would HAVE to be admitted, because that opens up a huge legal can of worms with that law I can't remember, but they have it on every job application forever.  The thing is, would a man WANT to join an all-women dance club (not for hook up reasons)?  Would a white WANT to join an all black or all hispanic or all brown group?  Not that wanting to join is the problem, but I mean like, it turns into sort of a peer group, and if you don't fit the particular demographic, then you automatically would feel like you wouldn't fit in, and peer (either yours or the group in question) pressure would make you uncomfortable.  It seems to me like that would be the case.

So the people who say, "Well that isn't fair!"  It makes me want to ask, "Do YOU want to join?  No?  Shoosh, then."

I don't think I explained my thought very clearly, but I'm not very clear on it either.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I had a thought about those all some-group groups (women, gay, black, etc).  I'm pretty sure if someone not of the group's demographic asked to join (at least in America), they would HAVE to be admitted, because that opens up a huge legal can of worms with that law I can't remember, but they have it on every job application forever.  The thing is, would a man WANT to join an all-women dance club (not for hook up reasons)?  Would a white WANT to join an all black or all hispanic or all brown group?  Not that wanting to join is the problem, but I mean like, it turns into sort of a peer group, and if you don't fit the particular demographic, then you automatically would feel like you wouldn't fit in, and peer (either yours or the group in question) pressure would make you uncomfortable.  It seems to me like that would be the case.

So the people who say, "Well that isn't fair!"  It makes me want to ask, "Do YOU want to join?  No?  Shoosh, then."

I don't think I explained my thought very clearly, but I'm not very clear on it either.

Well, there's lots of White members in the NAACP.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I had a thought about those all some-group groups (women, gay, black, etc).  I'm pretty sure if someone not of the group's demographic asked to join (at least in America), they would HAVE to be admitted, because that opens up a huge legal can of worms with that law I can't remember, but they have it on every job application forever.  The thing is, would a man WANT to join an all-women dance club (not for hook up reasons)?  Would a white WANT to join an all black or all hispanic or all brown group?  Not that wanting to join is the problem, but I mean like, it turns into sort of a peer group, and if you don't fit the particular demographic, then you automatically would feel like you wouldn't fit in, and peer (either yours or the group in question) pressure would make you uncomfortable.  It seems to me like that would be the case.

So the people who say, "Well that isn't fair!"  It makes me want to ask, "Do YOU want to join?  No?  Shoosh, then."

I don't think I explained my thought very clearly, but I'm not very clear on it either.

The people who make a stink about that sort of thing are just trying to prove a point without actually having to do it. Because why would they want to associate with people who aren't like them?

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I had a thought about those all some-group groups (women, gay, black, etc).  I'm pretty sure if someone not of the group's demographic asked to join (at least in America), they would HAVE to be admitted, because that opens up a huge legal can of worms with that law I can't remember, but they have it on every job application forever.  The thing is, would a man WANT to join an all-women dance club (not for hook up reasons)?  Would a white WANT to join an all black or all hispanic or all brown group?  Not that wanting to join is the problem, but I mean like, it turns into sort of a peer group, and if you don't fit the particular demographic, then you automatically would feel like you wouldn't fit in, and peer (either yours or the group in question) pressure would make you uncomfortable.  It seems to me like that would be the case.

So the people who say, "Well that isn't fair!"  It makes me want to ask, "Do YOU want to join?  No?  Shoosh, then."

I don't think I explained my thought very clearly, but I'm not very clear on it either.

Well, there's lots of White members in the NAACP.

That's because they actually want to join.

[Freeky]

I'm still kinda collecting my thoughts on this. Perspectives change over time too.

At this point, I generally think of people along what they self-identify as. As far as white people go, I don't think of them as white, or of whiteness, but I do think of them as this or that, as opposed to, or just like, me. For example, my drummer self-identifies as Italian, and he acts as much as an Italian as I do an Irishman. And yet, he's just as Irish as he is Italian (a quarter). It bothers me when people refer to their background as white. It makes me wonder if they're a crazy racist, since I'm used to white people, no matter how Americanized, identifying with one or two European backgrounds. I just don't like it as a label of any sort, unless it's used as self-mockery.

I'll also do the same thing for black people if they identify with a particular culture. If they're Haitian, I think of them as Haitian as opposed to black, Trinadadian if they're Trinidadian, etc. Irish if they're from Ireland, English if they're from England (Phil Lynnott and Robbie Gee respectively, for example). It tells a more accurate story, and gives a little more nuance to their own experiences and perceptions (apparently, at least for a while, African Americans in Boston really did not like other black people if they came from the Caribbean). However, if I don't know, I do default to thinking of them as black. Or Asian if they're Asian. I don't like it but, yeah "white" is the default.

I think I'm going to have to mull over this some more.

Have you noticed how when some people say, in a conversation about what race they are, a person says "I'm American" you classify them as a complete whackjob?  Is this just me?  Because I mean, I am apparently mostly German and Italian, (and a little Irish and Cherokee but who doesn't? quite a few people, but the point is it is not uncommon to be so mixed), but I have no links to Germany or Italy.  I have never been, and I'm pretty sure circumstances will make sure I will never go.  I have traveled outside of the US only once, in Nogales, Mexico, because some family member was in town and wanted to go to the Great Big Southern Dollar Store.

I do not do Italian or German things, I don't know anything about the cultures (except Germans drink beer and eat weinerschnitzel, and Italians are, I dunno, I think smelly?), and I barely know where they are on a map.  I am, for all intents and purposes, of American decent, so why does it feel like to say "My race is American" is so silly? 

Because of fucking nut jobs, I guess, but even so. 

[Freeky]

I had a thought about those all some-group groups (women, gay, black, etc).  I'm pretty sure if someone not of the group's demographic asked to join (at least in America), they would HAVE to be admitted, because that opens up a huge legal can of worms with that law I can't remember, but they have it on every job application forever.  The thing is, would a man WANT to join an all-women dance club (not for hook up reasons)?  Would a white WANT to join an all black or all hispanic or all brown group?  Not that wanting to join is the problem, but I mean like, it turns into sort of a peer group, and if you don't fit the particular demographic, then you automatically would feel like you wouldn't fit in, and peer (either yours or the group in question) pressure would make you uncomfortable.  It seems to me like that would be the case.

So the people who say, "Well that isn't fair!"  It makes me want to ask, "Do YOU want to join?  No?  Shoosh, then."

I don't think I explained my thought very clearly, but I'm not very clear on it either.

Well, there's lots of White members in the NAACP.

I'm not sure that negates my entire argument.  In fact I think it is a supporting piece of evidence?  Not sure what my argument was. 

Blargh.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I'm still kinda collecting my thoughts on this. Perspectives change over time too.

At this point, I generally think of people along what they self-identify as. As far as white people go, I don't think of them as white, or of whiteness, but I do think of them as this or that, as opposed to, or just like, me. For example, my drummer self-identifies as Italian, and he acts as much as an Italian as I do an Irishman. And yet, he's just as Irish as he is Italian (a quarter). It bothers me when people refer to their background as white. It makes me wonder if they're a crazy racist, since I'm used to white people, no matter how Americanized, identifying with one or two European backgrounds. I just don't like it as a label of any sort, unless it's used as self-mockery.

I'll also do the same thing for black people if they identify with a particular culture. If they're Haitian, I think of them as Haitian as opposed to black, Trinadadian if they're Trinidadian, etc. Irish if they're from Ireland, English if they're from England (Phil Lynnott and Robbie Gee respectively, for example). It tells a more accurate story, and gives a little more nuance to their own experiences and perceptions (apparently, at least for a while, African Americans in Boston really did not like other black people if they came from the Caribbean). However, if I don't know, I do default to thinking of them as black. Or Asian if they're Asian. I don't like it but, yeah "white" is the default.

I think I'm going to have to mull over this some more.

Have you noticed how when some people say, in a conversation about what race they are, a person says "I'm American" you classify them as a complete whackjob?  Is this just me?  Because I mean, I am apparently mostly German and Italian, (and a little Irish and Cherokee but who doesn't? quite a few people, but the point is it is not uncommon to be so mixed), but I have no links to Germany or Italy.  I have never been, and I'm pretty sure circumstances will make sure I will never go.  I have traveled outside of the US only once, in Nogales, Mexico, because some family member was in town and wanted to go to the Great Big Southern Dollar Store.

I do not do Italian or German things, I don't know anything about the cultures (except Germans drink beer and eat weinerschnitzel, and Italians are, I dunno, I think smelly?), and I barely know where they are on a map.  I am, for all intents and purposes, of American decent, so why does it feel like to say "My race is American" is so silly? 

Because of fucking nut jobs, I guess, but even so.

No, you're right on the money. When someone is describing themselves as American, it should only refer to whether or not they're eligible to vote here. It's not a race or an ethnicity. If anything it's the exact opposite. It's a vague blanket culture sure, but a vague one. The only place I'm aware of my Americanness is when I am outside of the United States.

[Freeky]

No, you're right on the money. When someone is describing themselves as American, it should only refer to whether or not they're eligible to vote here. It's not a race or an ethnicity. If anything it's the exact opposite. It's a vague blanket culture sure, but a vague one. The only place I'm aware of my Americanness is when I am outside of the United States.

The thing about blanket culture vs race...  Have you noticed after a few generations here, families start looking a little more homogenous?  A little more Americanized features, sort of thing?  Or am I imagining things?

[Nephew Twiddleton]

No, you're right on the money. When someone is describing themselves as American, it should only refer to whether or not they're eligible to vote here. It's not a race or an ethnicity. If anything it's the exact opposite. It's a vague blanket culture sure, but a vague one. The only place I'm aware of my Americanness is when I am outside of the United States.

The thing about blanket culture vs race...  Have you noticed after a few generations here, families start looking a little more homogenous?  A little more Americanized features, sort of thing?  Or am I imagining things?

It might be a regional thing. Boston is a major city for recent immigration (always has been). We're always getting new blood, both from around the world, and also from other Americans who move here for either school or employment.

[Freeky]

No, you're right on the money. When someone is describing themselves as American, it should only refer to whether or not they're eligible to vote here. It's not a race or an ethnicity. If anything it's the exact opposite. It's a vague blanket culture sure, but a vague one. The only place I'm aware of my Americanness is when I am outside of the United States.

The thing about blanket culture vs race...  Have you noticed after a few generations here, families start looking a little more homogenous?  A little more Americanized features, sort of thing?  Or am I imagining things?

It might be a regional thing. Boston is a major city for recent immigration (always has been). We're always getting new blood, both from around the world, and also from other Americans who move here for either school or employment.

That's probable.