Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[East Coast Hustle]

I always imagined the dwarfs as having darkish earth-colored skin, and the orcs and goblins coming in all the colors of boogers (usually not dark unless you have a sinus infection), although I don't remember any actual descriptions about them.  On the other other hand, I always thought of the people from the Earthsea as looking basically Irish (the main character was a goat or sheepherd on an island!  That's basically Ireland, right?)  Until recently, where I saw in an interview Ursula K. le Guin saying how stupid it was that fantasy worlds always had characters of real-world ethnicities, which was why she made the main race of Earthsea novels dark-skinned, red-haired peoples.  So maybe I just tend to gloss over appearance descriptions?

Yeah, LOTR was pretty explicit in its physical descriptions of the different races, though it may be to your credit that you ignored that in favor of a more equitable distribution of skin tones among the major races.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Sorry for the delay. Funny enough, I was talking to a black female friend about this same thread. She's upstairs putting Picklesson to sleep.

Anyway:

Here's the Irish dude, he's Filipino, rather than Asian, and the relevant bit starts around 2:13:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYrOn7j7eo&feature=channel_video_title

Now mind you, you can hear his accent, even if he's not speaking English. And just before this, he's saying it's a shame that Irish is dying. And in this clip he mentions that he's Irish. He identifies as both Filipino and Irish.

Now, I can't remember which clip it was, since he has a few in Irish, but he uses the phrase "Nil me muinteoir" which is incorrect, since it means "I am in a temporary sort of sense, not a teacher" where he should have said "Ni muinteoir me" (I am not a teacher [permanently, as far as I as the speaker can tell but maybe down the line I'll change my mind. Who knows, let's drink more and I'll make a temporary decision])" But people gave him shit about it. It's an honest mistake since English doesn't make that distinction. I am not a teacher vs I am not a teacher. And he admitted that he hasn't spoken in Irish in several years. And I've seen shit comments on his videos but encouraging ones for American or Canadian women trying hard to speak Irish and it's nothing but encouraging. He's some foreign fuck butchering the language for a slip up or two, except that he's an Irish born Irish citizen. He could run for president. I, as a pure (as it gets) Irish citizen, would not be able to vote for him, since I am a Bostonian.

You know what?

I am some foreign fuck who is entitled to citizenship. Those Americans and Canadians who are botching it? Put your dicks away. They aren't fucking you.


This dude is Irish. Here's the proof. Talking about Irish politics. In English. With and Irish accent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH3xbYpQo28

Very interesting, thanks for the links!

I'm listening now, and he sounds 100% Irish.

[Golden Applesauce]

That said, I also don't believe that he was promulgating any kind of racist agenda, either. I think that he was simply trying to make the bad guys ugly and the good guys appealing using imagery that was familiar and comfortable, and that was the imagery at hand, so deeply ingrained into him due to its dominance in culture that he didn't even question it.

Which is exactly why we are questioning it.

Next to the light/dark theme, there was also a lot of stuff going around about rising above ancient grudges and prejudices to work together for a common goal.  The humans, elves, and dwarves basically all hated or mistrusted each to the point where they were willing to watch as the others' cities fell to Sauron one by one at the beginning of the series, and it wasn't until they started working together that things got better.  Aside from Legolas' and Gimli's friendship subplot, you even have a straight-up interracial marriage between Aragorn and Arwen.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Placid Dingo, I'm glad we seem to have come to consensus. I did want to address something you brought up: racism in Little Women. You drew the comparison between Tolkein's evil hordes of brown races and Louisa May Alcott's black maid in  the March household, who you stated is clearly drawn from stereotypes about black women. There are a few holes in your comparison's credibility.

First off, the maid was Irish.

Second, the only non-white character in the book is Laurie, the wealthy neighbor boy who falls in love with Jo and later marries Amy. It is not actually clear what race Laurie is; I would guess probably Indian or Middle Eastern. He is described as having black eyes, brown skin, and curly black hair.

Third, the book is set, if you remember, during the Civil War. The father of the girls is away fighting for the North.

Fourth, the book is essentially a memoir, and the maid is not based on a stereotype (not even an Irish one) but drawn from Alcott's memory of the maid she grew up with. She was, if I recall, described in the book as being young and pretty with dark curly hair and pale skin, and was always swooning over some boy or another.

Lastly, Louisa May Alcott was a vehement abolitionist who wrote a book on American racism. http://www.amazon.com/Louisa-May-Alcott-Race-Slavery/dp/1555533078/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327549262&sr=1-1

I can honestly not think of a single worse comparison.

[East Coast Hustle]

That said, I also don't believe that he was promulgating any kind of racist agenda, either. I think that he was simply trying to make the bad guys ugly and the good guys appealing using imagery that was familiar and comfortable, and that was the imagery at hand, so deeply ingrained into him due to its dominance in culture that he didn't even question it.

Which is exactly why we are questioning it.

Next to the light/dark theme, there was also a lot of stuff going around about rising above ancient grudges and prejudices to work together for a common goal.  The humans, elves, and dwarves basically all hated or mistrusted each to the point where they were willing to watch as the others' cities fell to Sauron one by one at the beginning of the series, and it wasn't until they started working together that things got better.  Aside from Legolas' and Gimli's friendship subplot, you even have a straight-up interracial marriage between Aragorn and Arwen.

We need a :requia: emoticon.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Sorry for the delay. Funny enough, I was talking to a black female friend about this same thread. She's upstairs putting Picklesson to sleep.

Anyway:

Here's the Irish dude, he's Filipino, rather than Asian, and the relevant bit starts around 2:13:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYrOn7j7eo&feature=channel_video_title

Now mind you, you can hear his accent, even if he's not speaking English. And just before this, he's saying it's a shame that Irish is dying. And in this clip he mentions that he's Irish. He identifies as both Filipino and Irish.

Now, I can't remember which clip it was, since he has a few in Irish, but he uses the phrase "Nil me muinteoir" which is incorrect, since it means "I am in a temporary sort of sense, not a teacher" where he should have said "Ni muinteoir me" (I am not a teacher [permanently, as far as I as the speaker can tell but maybe down the line I'll change my mind. Who knows, let's drink more and I'll make a temporary decision])" But people gave him shit about it. It's an honest mistake since English doesn't make that distinction. I am not a teacher vs I am not a teacher. And he admitted that he hasn't spoken in Irish in several years. And I've seen shit comments on his videos but encouraging ones for American or Canadian women trying hard to speak Irish and it's nothing but encouraging. He's some foreign fuck butchering the language for a slip up or two, except that he's an Irish born Irish citizen. He could run for president. I, as a pure (as it gets) Irish citizen, would not be able to vote for him, since I am a Bostonian.

You know what?

I am some foreign fuck who is entitled to citizenship. Those Americans and Canadians who are botching it? Put your dicks away. They aren't fucking you.


This dude is Irish. Here's the proof. Talking about Irish politics. In English. With and Irish accent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH3xbYpQo28

Very interesting, thanks for the links!

I'm listening now, and he sounds 100% Irish.

As a dual citizen with an Irish father, he is Irish. His command of the language is superior to my granmother's. And let's face it. If someone talks shit about ANYONE regardless of their background talking shit about them speaking Irish, they don't actually care about the language. Think about it this way. If they move to our American country they need to learn English. If they aren't Irish, they can't speak Irish.

No fuck that shit. Seriously. Our language is dying. If ANYONE wants to learn it, they have my support. I had to learn to

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

That said, I also don't believe that he was promulgating any kind of racist agenda, either. I think that he was simply trying to make the bad guys ugly and the good guys appealing using imagery that was familiar and comfortable, and that was the imagery at hand, so deeply ingrained into him due to its dominance in culture that he didn't even question it.

Which is exactly why we are questioning it.

Next to the light/dark theme, there was also a lot of stuff going around about rising above ancient grudges and prejudices to work together for a common goal.  The humans, elves, and dwarves basically all hated or mistrusted each to the point where they were willing to watch as the others' cities fell to Sauron one by one at the beginning of the series, and it wasn't until they started working together that things got better.  Aside from Legolas' and Gimli's friendship subplot, you even have a straight-up interracial marriage between Aragorn and Arwen.

We need a :requia: emoticon.

I understand what he's saying... it's just not directly relevant.

However, the books do make a good case study in unconscious systemic racism expressed in the writing of someone who was consciously and purposefully against racism. I think that should tell us a lot; if even Tolkein was not immune, we all are susceptible if we aren't conscious of it.

[Placid Dingo]

I have no defence; I actually double checked it writing it and saw she was Irish.

The point I was making though is a character who owes a debt to stereotypes without itself being offensive or dismissive doesn't make a work racist. I could agree it does have the same kind of unconcious racism I guess.

ECH consider it on the list.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Sorry for the delay. Funny enough, I was talking to a black female friend about this same thread. She's upstairs putting Picklesson to sleep.

Anyway:

Here's the Irish dude, he's Filipino, rather than Asian, and the relevant bit starts around 2:13:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYrOn7j7eo&feature=channel_video_title

Now mind you, you can hear his accent, even if he's not speaking English. And just before this, he's saying it's a shame that Irish is dying. And in this clip he mentions that he's Irish. He identifies as both Filipino and Irish.

Now, I can't remember which clip it was, since he has a few in Irish, but he uses the phrase "Nil me muinteoir" which is incorrect, since it means "I am in a temporary sort of sense, not a teacher" where he should have said "Ni muinteoir me" (I am not a teacher [permanently, as far as I as the speaker can tell but maybe down the line I'll change my mind. Who knows, let's drink more and I'll make a temporary decision])" But people gave him shit about it. It's an honest mistake since English doesn't make that distinction. I am not a teacher vs I am not a teacher. And he admitted that he hasn't spoken in Irish in several years. And I've seen shit comments on his videos but encouraging ones for American or Canadian women trying hard to speak Irish and it's nothing but encouraging. He's some foreign fuck butchering the language for a slip up or two, except that he's an Irish born Irish citizen. He could run for president. I, as a pure (as it gets) Irish citizen, would not be able to vote for him, since I am a Bostonian.

You know what?

I am some foreign fuck who is entitled to citizenship. Those Americans and Canadians who are botching it? Put your dicks away. They aren't fucking you.


This dude is Irish. Here's the proof. Talking about Irish politics. In English. With and Irish accent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH3xbYpQo28

Very interesting, thanks for the links!

I'm listening now, and he sounds 100% Irish.

As a dual citizen with an Irish father, he is Irish. His command of the language is superior to my granmother's. And let's face it. If someone talks shit about ANYONE regardless of their background talking shit about them speaking Irish, they don't actually care about the language. Think about it this way. If they move to our American country they need to learn English. If they aren't Irish, they can't speak Irish.

No fuck that shit. Seriously. Our language is dying. If ANYONE wants to learn it, they have my support. I had to learn to

Phone problems?

I agree completely. It's like all the dead and dying indian languages here. And if his being Irish was even a question, just listening to him talk should resolve it, because he sounds Irish.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I have no defence; I actually double checked it writing it and saw she was Irish.

The point I was making though is a character who owes a debt to stereotypes without itself being offensive or dismissive doesn't make a work racist. I could agree it does have the same kind of unconcious racism I guess.

ECH consider it on the list.

Absolutely nobody in this thread has said that Lord of the Rings is a racist work.

However, I would like you to consider whether, if you were black, and had black children, you would perhaps be more willing to dismiss it as a whole due to the inclusion of racist themes?

This is a consideration for those of us with children of color; how comfortable would you be with your brown child reading a book that portrays its good characters as white and its bad characters as brown?

[Placid Dingo]

I get that; I agree there's issues there; I did feel like people were saying 'this book is racist' and that's where I felt a niggling disagreement.

I understand that to have black kids that would change your views on works. I do try to look frOm different points of view. I know I've had a lot of moments with watching films or series with friends of different ethnicities or religions and wondering how they take certain parts.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Sorry for the delay. Funny enough, I was talking to a black female friend about this same thread. She's upstairs putting Picklesson to sleep.

Anyway:

Here's the Irish dude, he's Filipino, rather than Asian, and the relevant bit starts around 2:13:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYrOn7j7eo&feature=channel_video_title

Now mind you, you can hear his accent, even if he's not speaking English. And just before this, he's saying it's a shame that Irish is dying. And in this clip he mentions that he's Irish. He identifies as both Filipino and Irish.

Now, I can't remember which clip it was, since he has a few in Irish, but he uses the phrase "Nil me muinteoir" which is incorrect, since it means "I am in a temporary sort of sense, not a teacher" where he should have said "Ni muinteoir me" (I am not a teacher [permanently, as far as I as the speaker can tell but maybe down the line I'll change my mind. Who knows, let's drink more and I'll make a temporary decision])" But people gave him shit about it. It's an honest mistake since English doesn't make that distinction. I am not a teacher vs I am not a teacher. And he admitted that he hasn't spoken in Irish in several years. And I've seen shit comments on his videos but encouraging ones for American or Canadian women trying hard to speak Irish and it's nothing but encouraging. He's some foreign fuck butchering the language for a slip up or two, except that he's an Irish born Irish citizen. He could run for president. I, as a pure (as it gets) Irish citizen, would not be able to vote for him, since I am a Bostonian.

You know what?

I am some foreign fuck who is entitled to citizenship. Those Americans and Canadians who are botching it? Put your dicks away. They aren't fucking you.


This dude is Irish. Here's the proof. Talking about Irish politics. In English. With and Irish accent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH3xbYpQo28

Very interesting, thanks for the links!

I'm listening now, and he sounds 100% Irish.

As a dual citizen with an Irish father, he is Irish. His command of the language is superior to my granmother's. And let's face it. If someone talks shit about ANYONE regardless of their background talking shit about them speaking Irish, they don't actually care about the language. Think about it this way. If they move to our American country they need to learn English. If they aren't Irish, they can't speak Irish.

No fuck that shit. Seriously. Our language is dying. If ANYONE wants to learn it, they have my support. I had to learn to

Phone problems?

I agree completely. It's like all the dead and dying indian languages here. And if his being Irish was even a question, just listening to him talk should resolve it, because he sounds Irish.

No, drink problems. Eh, we're in a potential eviction situation again. I'll be happy when this shit is over. But the short of it is that this guy is obviously Irish. It just goes to show this race thing is bollocks. He's Filipino but he's Irish as fuck.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Sorry for the delay. Funny enough, I was talking to a black female friend about this same thread. She's upstairs putting Picklesson to sleep.

Anyway:

Here's the Irish dude, he's Filipino, rather than Asian, and the relevant bit starts around 2:13:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYrOn7j7eo&feature=channel_video_title

Now mind you, you can hear his accent, even if he's not speaking English. And just before this, he's saying it's a shame that Irish is dying. And in this clip he mentions that he's Irish. He identifies as both Filipino and Irish.

Now, I can't remember which clip it was, since he has a few in Irish, but he uses the phrase "Nil me muinteoir" which is incorrect, since it means "I am in a temporary sort of sense, not a teacher" where he should have said "Ni muinteoir me" (I am not a teacher [permanently, as far as I as the speaker can tell but maybe down the line I'll change my mind. Who knows, let's drink more and I'll make a temporary decision])" But people gave him shit about it. It's an honest mistake since English doesn't make that distinction. I am not a teacher vs I am not a teacher. And he admitted that he hasn't spoken in Irish in several years. And I've seen shit comments on his videos but encouraging ones for American or Canadian women trying hard to speak Irish and it's nothing but encouraging. He's some foreign fuck butchering the language for a slip up or two, except that he's an Irish born Irish citizen. He could run for president. I, as a pure (as it gets) Irish citizen, would not be able to vote for him, since I am a Bostonian.

You know what?

I am some foreign fuck who is entitled to citizenship. Those Americans and Canadians who are botching it? Put your dicks away. They aren't fucking you.


This dude is Irish. Here's the proof. Talking about Irish politics. In English. With and Irish accent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH3xbYpQo28

Very interesting, thanks for the links!

I'm listening now, and he sounds 100% Irish.

As a dual citizen with an Irish father, he is Irish. His command of the language is superior to my granmother's. And let's face it. If someone talks shit about ANYONE regardless of their background talking shit about them speaking Irish, they don't actually care about the language. Think about it this way. If they move to our American country they need to learn English. If they aren't Irish, they can't speak Irish.

No fuck that shit. Seriously. Our language is dying. If ANYONE wants to learn it, they have my support. I had to learn to

Phone problems?

I agree completely. It's like all the dead and dying indian languages here. And if his being Irish was even a question, just listening to him talk should resolve it, because he sounds Irish.

No, drink problems. Eh, we're in a potential eviction situation again. I'll be happy when this shit is over. But the short of it is that this guy is obviously Irish. It just goes to show this race thing is bollocks. He's Filipino but he's Irish as fuck.

And when it comes down to it, I'm an American learning this language. Saving my culture. My supposed to be language if not for a quirk of history.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Not sure where I went wrong here, but I know I'm thinking about it alot.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Sorry for the delay. Funny enough, I was talking to a black female friend about this same thread. She's upstairs putting Picklesson to sleep.

Anyway:

Here's the Irish dude, he's Filipino, rather than Asian, and the relevant bit starts around 2:13:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYrOn7j7eo&feature=channel_video_title

Now mind you, you can hear his accent, even if he's not speaking English. And just before this, he's saying it's a shame that Irish is dying. And in this clip he mentions that he's Irish. He identifies as both Filipino and Irish.

Now, I can't remember which clip it was, since he has a few in Irish, but he uses the phrase "Nil me muinteoir" which is incorrect, since it means "I am in a temporary sort of sense, not a teacher" where he should have said "Ni muinteoir me" (I am not a teacher [permanently, as far as I as the speaker can tell but maybe down the line I'll change my mind. Who knows, let's drink more and I'll make a temporary decision])" But people gave him shit about it. It's an honest mistake since English doesn't make that distinction. I am not a teacher vs I am not a teacher. And he admitted that he hasn't spoken in Irish in several years. And I've seen shit comments on his videos but encouraging ones for American or Canadian women trying hard to speak Irish and it's nothing but encouraging. He's some foreign fuck butchering the language for a slip up or two, except that he's an Irish born Irish citizen. He could run for president. I, as a pure (as it gets) Irish citizen, would not be able to vote for him, since I am a Bostonian.

You know what?

I am some foreign fuck who is entitled to citizenship. Those Americans and Canadians who are botching it? Put your dicks away. They aren't fucking you.


This dude is Irish. Here's the proof. Talking about Irish politics. In English. With and Irish accent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH3xbYpQo28

Very interesting, thanks for the links!

I'm listening now, and he sounds 100% Irish.

As a dual citizen with an Irish father, he is Irish. His command of the language is superior to my granmother's. And let's face it. If someone talks shit about ANYONE regardless of their background talking shit about them speaking Irish, they don't actually care about the language. Think about it this way. If they move to our American country they need to learn English. If they aren't Irish, they can't speak Irish.

No fuck that shit. Seriously. Our language is dying. If ANYONE wants to learn it, they have my support. I had to learn to

Phone problems?

I agree completely. It's like all the dead and dying indian languages here. And if his being Irish was even a question, just listening to him talk should resolve it, because he sounds Irish.

No, drink problems. Eh, we're in a potential eviction situation again. I'll be happy when this shit is over. But the short of it is that this guy is obviously Irish. It just goes to show this race thing is bollocks. He's Filipino but he's Irish as fuck.

And when it comes down to it, I'm an American learning this language. Saving my culture. My supposed to be language if not for a quirk of history.

My dad is Irish, and speaks virtually none. All I know how to say is kiss my arse, close the door please and turn out the light please.  I'd love to learn, but the pronunciation of the written Irish leaves me baffled.