Excuse me while I vomit.- Trigger Warning for Rape and Rape Culture.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Having uncomfortable discussions is about the absolute minimum we owe to the rest of society if we say we're interested at all in solving big problems and not just distracting ourselves with frivolity all the time.

People who have been through sexual trauma owe it to society to re-traumatize themselves by subjecting themselves to content they are not ready to read?

Yes, that sounds like very non-counterproductive "big problem" solving.

Hence the "This topic involves rape" which would naturally be part of any decent OP. People can see that and move on. I don't object to a "trigger warning" in this case, but you know how people get. Pretty soon we'll have a "trigger warning" for politics in general, or "trigger warning" for pie vs. cake. Probably not HERE, but imagine Facebook. That's what I object to.

POINT ONE FOR SLIPPERY SLOPE FALLACY GOES TO VEX!

And this is the only time I will snark in the entire thread. well, at least TRY to.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Having uncomfortable discussions is about the absolute minimum we owe to the rest of society if we say we're interested at all in solving big problems and not just distracting ourselves with frivolity all the time.

People who have been through sexual trauma owe it to society to re-traumatize themselves by subjecting themselves to content they are not ready to read?

Yes, that sounds like very non-counterproductive "big problem" solving.

Hence the "This topic involves rape" which would naturally be part of any decent OP. People can see that and move on. I don't object to a "trigger warning" in this case, but you know how people get. Pretty soon we'll have a "trigger warning" for politics in general, or "trigger warning" for pie vs. cake. Probably not HERE, but imagine Facebook. That's what I object to.

POINT ONE FOR SLIPPERY SLOPE FALLACY GOES TO VEX!

And this is the only time I will snark in the entire thread. well, at least TRY to.

You're right of course... I was trying to make a statement about trigger warnings in a thread about rape, so I'm also guilty of threadjacking. My objection was unnecessary... so I apologize for using this discussion as a springboard.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I regret my overreaction yesterday, and I'm sorry, Faust and V3x.

I feel like I could have been a lot more effective at facilitating some sort of understanding if I had kept my cool and calmly explained PTSD from sexual assault and what triggers are within that context, and why, while not everyone finds trigger warnings useful, many people do, especially shortly after an assault or during intensive therapy while they're actively working through the trauma. I haven't read back through the thread to see what's been discussed but if I feel up for it later today maybe I will.

[hooplala]

On the tangentially related subject of trigger warnings... it would seem to me that the benefit that it provides to those who would use it vastly outweighs the seemingly minor disapproval some seem to feel toward the concept.  So why you all trippin?  Opinions duly noted; let's move on.

[Faust]

I regret my overreaction yesterday, and I'm sorry, Faust and V3x.

I feel like I could have been a lot more effective at facilitating some sort of understanding if I had kept my cool and calmly explained PTSD from sexual assault and what triggers are within that context, and why, while not everyone finds trigger warnings useful, many people do, especially shortly after an assault or during intensive therapy while they're actively working through the trauma. I haven't read back through the thread to see what's been discussed but if I feel up for it later today maybe I will.

I'm sorry too, and to net and murmur. I took it personally and got aggressive. I think I'll take my leave from this thread.

[Payne]

The message I get from this thread seems to be that words are more important than feelings.

Also that I should stop hiding NSFW material behind NSFW tags. Or warning Nigel about some full on trippy flashing animated GIFs.

Indeed, any kind of warning or disclaimer belittles possible victims, known and unknown, and prevents true discussion and debate.

The possibility that was here in this thread was precisely the kind of thing that needs to be debated in the wider world, ergo the appropriate framework that we can use as a society to openly, fully and safely talk about sex. As a microcosm of our societies at large, PD appears to have largely failed this particular task as much as our real world counterparts have.

I have long believed that sex education is lacking in the most important area, it fails to truly describe what a healthy sexual relationship is. You can learn all about not getting STIs and not impregnating or being impregnated and still have the most unhealthy concept of intercourse.

The same is also, sadly, true of discussing the most extreme cases of unhealthy sex and sexual abuse after they have happened. Otherwise, why would the words "Trigger Warning" be more abhorrent than the word "Rape"?

Well done Faust for being a largely functional person, with an intact mind and a usually healthy attitude towards tough and necessary discussions, regardless of whatever happened to you in the past. Not so well done on the whole empathy bit.

Murmer, Nigel, Faust : If you ever need to talk, you know where to find me. I will do my own empathetic best. Someone has to.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Thank you, Payne; most especially for the empathy and understanding. You are the best Messiah ever! And I'm not just saying that for the funny.

A friend of mine posted the link to this essay on my FB wall, and I found it incredibly relevant to the current dialogue:
http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/live-through-this/

Though some feminists regard "rape equals devastation" as sacred fact, the notion that a man can ruin me with his penis strikes me as the most complete expression of vintage misogyny available. Common sense instructs us that it is far more "dangerous" to insist to young women that they will be broken by an unwanted sex act than it is to propose they might have a happy, healthy, and sexually pleasant future ahead of them in spite of a sexual assault. Weldon ventured this same conclusion when she said that "defining it as some peculiarly awful crime may even be counter-productive."

Similarly, Germaine Greer claimed, "It is not women who have decided that rape is so heinous, but men. The only weapon that counts in rape is the penis, which is conceptualized as devastating." When we refuse to acknowledge the possibility that a rape could be anything less than a tsunami of emotional and mental destruction for a woman, we establish a fantasy of absolute male sexual power and absolute female vulnerability. We are, in essence, honoring the timeless belief that a woman's worth, self-respect, and ability to function within society are dictated exclusively by the sexual use of her body.

[hooplala]

Thank you, Payne; most especially for the empathy and understanding. You are the best Messiah ever! And I'm not just saying that for the funny.

A friend of mine posted the link to this essay on my FB wall, and I found it incredibly relevant to the current dialogue:
http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/live-through-this/

Though some feminists regard "rape equals devastation" as sacred fact, the notion that a man can ruin me with his penis strikes me as the most complete expression of vintage misogyny available. Common sense instructs us that it is far more "dangerous" to insist to young women that they will be broken by an unwanted sex act than it is to propose they might have a happy, healthy, and sexually pleasant future ahead of them in spite of a sexual assault. Weldon ventured this same conclusion when she said that "defining it as some peculiarly awful crime may even be counter-productive."

Similarly, Germaine Greer claimed, "It is not women who have decided that rape is so heinous, but men. The only weapon that counts in rape is the penis, which is conceptualized as devastating." When we refuse to acknowledge the possibility that a rape could be anything less than a tsunami of emotional and mental destruction for a woman, we establish a fantasy of absolute male sexual power and absolute female vulnerability. We are, in essence, honoring the timeless belief that a woman's worth, self-respect, and ability to function within society are dictated exclusively by the sexual use of her body.

There's a lot to be said for those quotes, but I can easily imagine how it would be -at the very least- mentally damaging in a temporary manner... I won't pretend I know anything about what it's like to be raped, but I was mugged once, and it was very traumatizing.  I can only imagine that the added violation of being "entered" (for lack of a better term) by the attacker would compound that trauma exponentially.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Thank you, Payne; most especially for the empathy and understanding. You are the best Messiah ever! And I'm not just saying that for the funny.

A friend of mine posted the link to this essay on my FB wall, and I found it incredibly relevant to the current dialogue:
http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/live-through-this/

Though some feminists regard "rape equals devastation" as sacred fact, the notion that a man can ruin me with his penis strikes me as the most complete expression of vintage misogyny available. Common sense instructs us that it is far more "dangerous" to insist to young women that they will be broken by an unwanted sex act than it is to propose they might have a happy, healthy, and sexually pleasant future ahead of them in spite of a sexual assault. Weldon ventured this same conclusion when she said that "defining it as some peculiarly awful crime may even be counter-productive."

Similarly, Germaine Greer claimed, "It is not women who have decided that rape is so heinous, but men. The only weapon that counts in rape is the penis, which is conceptualized as devastating." When we refuse to acknowledge the possibility that a rape could be anything less than a tsunami of emotional and mental destruction for a woman, we establish a fantasy of absolute male sexual power and absolute female vulnerability. We are, in essence, honoring the timeless belief that a woman's worth, self-respect, and ability to function within society are dictated exclusively by the sexual use of her body.

I like that.

"Devastation by penis" needs to go in the same anachronistic trash pile as "damaged (by penis) goods" and that old racist trope "a fate worse than death".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Thank you, Payne; most especially for the empathy and understanding. You are the best Messiah ever! And I'm not just saying that for the funny.

A friend of mine posted the link to this essay on my FB wall, and I found it incredibly relevant to the current dialogue:
http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/live-through-this/

Though some feminists regard "rape equals devastation" as sacred fact, the notion that a man can ruin me with his penis strikes me as the most complete expression of vintage misogyny available. Common sense instructs us that it is far more "dangerous" to insist to young women that they will be broken by an unwanted sex act than it is to propose they might have a happy, healthy, and sexually pleasant future ahead of them in spite of a sexual assault. Weldon ventured this same conclusion when she said that "defining it as some peculiarly awful crime may even be counter-productive."

Similarly, Germaine Greer claimed, "It is not women who have decided that rape is so heinous, but men. The only weapon that counts in rape is the penis, which is conceptualized as devastating." When we refuse to acknowledge the possibility that a rape could be anything less than a tsunami of emotional and mental destruction for a woman, we establish a fantasy of absolute male sexual power and absolute female vulnerability. We are, in essence, honoring the timeless belief that a woman's worth, self-respect, and ability to function within society are dictated exclusively by the sexual use of her body.

There's a lot to be said for those quotes, but I can easily imagine how it would be -at the very least- mentally damaging in a temporary manner... I won't pretend I know anything about what it's like to be raped, but I was mugged once, and it was very traumatizing.  I can only imagine that the added violation of being "entered" (for lack of a better term) by the attacker would compound that trauma exponentially.

It can. It IS horrible. But the societal insistence that women are defined and valued by their sexual use makes it much, much more traumatizing than it would be otherwise, IMO.

I was 15, and "lost my virginity" to rape. I spent so many years trying to cope with the ramifications of that ALONE... until someone pointed out to me that "virginity" itself is not a possession to be lost, stolen, or taken, any more than "never having tried popcorn" is a possession. It's a cultural construct, an abstract invention that is directly linked to woman-as-possession.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Thank you, Payne; most especially for the empathy and understanding. You are the best Messiah ever! And I'm not just saying that for the funny.

A friend of mine posted the link to this essay on my FB wall, and I found it incredibly relevant to the current dialogue:
http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/live-through-this/

Though some feminists regard "rape equals devastation" as sacred fact, the notion that a man can ruin me with his penis strikes me as the most complete expression of vintage misogyny available. Common sense instructs us that it is far more "dangerous" to insist to young women that they will be broken by an unwanted sex act than it is to propose they might have a happy, healthy, and sexually pleasant future ahead of them in spite of a sexual assault. Weldon ventured this same conclusion when she said that "defining it as some peculiarly awful crime may even be counter-productive."

Similarly, Germaine Greer claimed, "It is not women who have decided that rape is so heinous, but men. The only weapon that counts in rape is the penis, which is conceptualized as devastating." When we refuse to acknowledge the possibility that a rape could be anything less than a tsunami of emotional and mental destruction for a woman, we establish a fantasy of absolute male sexual power and absolute female vulnerability. We are, in essence, honoring the timeless belief that a woman's worth, self-respect, and ability to function within society are dictated exclusively by the sexual use of her body.

I like that.

"Devastation by penis" needs to go in the same anachronistic trash pile as "damaged (by penis) goods" and that old racist trope "a fate worse than death".

And yes. This.

I will also say that after reading the whole article, I have to confess that I have some doubts about the author's own sense of self-value or boundaries. But that doesn't invalidate the many good points she makes.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Thank you, Payne; most especially for the empathy and understanding. You are the best Messiah ever! And I'm not just saying that for the funny.

A friend of mine posted the link to this essay on my FB wall, and I found it incredibly relevant to the current dialogue:
http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/live-through-this/

Though some feminists regard "rape equals devastation" as sacred fact, the notion that a man can ruin me with his penis strikes me as the most complete expression of vintage misogyny available. Common sense instructs us that it is far more "dangerous" to insist to young women that they will be broken by an unwanted sex act than it is to propose they might have a happy, healthy, and sexually pleasant future ahead of them in spite of a sexual assault. Weldon ventured this same conclusion when she said that "defining it as some peculiarly awful crime may even be counter-productive."

Similarly, Germaine Greer claimed, "It is not women who have decided that rape is so heinous, but men. The only weapon that counts in rape is the penis, which is conceptualized as devastating." When we refuse to acknowledge the possibility that a rape could be anything less than a tsunami of emotional and mental destruction for a woman, we establish a fantasy of absolute male sexual power and absolute female vulnerability. We are, in essence, honoring the timeless belief that a woman's worth, self-respect, and ability to function within society are dictated exclusively by the sexual use of her body.

I like that.

"Devastation by penis" needs to go in the same anachronistic trash pile as "damaged (by penis) goods" and that old racist trope "a fate worse than death".

And yes. This.

I will also say that after reading the whole article, I have to confess that I have some doubts about the author's own sense of self-value or boundaries. But that doesn't invalidate the many good points she makes.

Yeah, she has issues. But she's not stupid.
And it's interesting that she brought up "degrees of rape". I've wondered about that before. But nobody talks about it, probably for the reasons she gives.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Thank you, Payne; most especially for the empathy and understanding. You are the best Messiah ever! And I'm not just saying that for the funny.

A friend of mine posted the link to this essay on my FB wall, and I found it incredibly relevant to the current dialogue:
http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/live-through-this/

Though some feminists regard "rape equals devastation" as sacred fact, the notion that a man can ruin me with his penis strikes me as the most complete expression of vintage misogyny available. Common sense instructs us that it is far more "dangerous" to insist to young women that they will be broken by an unwanted sex act than it is to propose they might have a happy, healthy, and sexually pleasant future ahead of them in spite of a sexual assault. Weldon ventured this same conclusion when she said that "defining it as some peculiarly awful crime may even be counter-productive."

Similarly, Germaine Greer claimed, "It is not women who have decided that rape is so heinous, but men. The only weapon that counts in rape is the penis, which is conceptualized as devastating." When we refuse to acknowledge the possibility that a rape could be anything less than a tsunami of emotional and mental destruction for a woman, we establish a fantasy of absolute male sexual power and absolute female vulnerability. We are, in essence, honoring the timeless belief that a woman's worth, self-respect, and ability to function within society are dictated exclusively by the sexual use of her body.

I like that.

"Devastation by penis" needs to go in the same anachronistic trash pile as "damaged (by penis) goods" and that old racist trope "a fate worse than death".

And yes. This.

I will also say that after reading the whole article, I have to confess that I have some doubts about the author's own sense of self-value or boundaries. But that doesn't invalidate the many good points she makes.

Yeah, she has issues. But she's not stupid.
And it's interesting that she brought up "degrees of rape". I've wondered about that before. But nobody talks about it, probably for the reasons she gives.

yeah, it's either LIFE DESTROYING or not rape. Which is patent bullshit. And god forbid you have any level of sympathy for your rapist, because there's no way he's a human being who feels like a piece of shit for what happened.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Thank you, Payne; most especially for the empathy and understanding. You are the best Messiah ever! And I'm not just saying that for the funny.

A friend of mine posted the link to this essay on my FB wall, and I found it incredibly relevant to the current dialogue:
http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/live-through-this/

Though some feminists regard "rape equals devastation" as sacred fact, the notion that a man can ruin me with his penis strikes me as the most complete expression of vintage misogyny available. Common sense instructs us that it is far more "dangerous" to insist to young women that they will be broken by an unwanted sex act than it is to propose they might have a happy, healthy, and sexually pleasant future ahead of them in spite of a sexual assault. Weldon ventured this same conclusion when she said that "defining it as some peculiarly awful crime may even be counter-productive."

Similarly, Germaine Greer claimed, "It is not women who have decided that rape is so heinous, but men. The only weapon that counts in rape is the penis, which is conceptualized as devastating." When we refuse to acknowledge the possibility that a rape could be anything less than a tsunami of emotional and mental destruction for a woman, we establish a fantasy of absolute male sexual power and absolute female vulnerability. We are, in essence, honoring the timeless belief that a woman's worth, self-respect, and ability to function within society are dictated exclusively by the sexual use of her body.

I like that.

"Devastation by penis" needs to go in the same anachronistic trash pile as "damaged (by penis) goods" and that old racist trope "a fate worse than death".

And yes. This.

I will also say that after reading the whole article, I have to confess that I have some doubts about the author's own sense of self-value or boundaries. But that doesn't invalidate the many good points she makes.

Yeah, she has issues. But she's not stupid.
And it's interesting that she brought up "degrees of rape". I've wondered about that before. But nobody talks about it, probably for the reasons she gives.

yeah, it's either LIFE DESTROYING or not rape. Which is patent bullshit. And god forbid you have any level of sympathy for your rapist, because there's no way he's a human being who feels like a piece of shit for what happened.

America is all about frying people. Admitting to complexity like any degree of sympathy (even though most rapists are people you know) will get you labeled as "seriously fucked up." Talking about chopping off dicks and throwing them on a fire, OTOH, probably won't. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Wow fantastic discussion... sucks I was trapped in "internet via cell phone" over the weekend

Anytime one person dominates another person and removes their freedom, its a form of slavery. It is traumatic, it is horrific and its not just because it involves penises. Though our culture and penises don't really help the situation, raping someone with an object can be just as traumatic. I appreciate Nigel's point that something like virginity isn't something we own and therefore not something that can be 'taken'. I think, though, that even if we strip away the cultural views on sex, rape would still be traumatic because it enslaves a person to the will of another, even if only temporarily.

In my experience, it wasn't the act, it was the feeling that I was powerless and had no choice that really fucked me up for awhile. The act kinda grossed me out because I was taught that anal was BADWRONG and God hated it, so it made me feel dirty. It physically hurt. Those things went away in a pretty short period of time though. The feeling that I was a weakling didn't.


ETA: Oh and I have a simple opinion on 'trigger warnings'. If people want to post them they should, if they don't then they shouldn't.