Why I'm not an Atheist

[Bruno]

So I was raised as a crazy JW... at the age of 6, I was hospitalized with a kidney problem. I had an operation with no blood transfusion permitted. In the days following the operation, the Doctor said that my blood count was dangerously low and that without a transfusion I may die. My parents refused and I recall vividly, crying and telling the Doctor that I would die faithful to Jehovah and 'please don't give me blood'. That, among many other experiences should probably have made me a screaming atheist. It didn't. After I left the JW's, I became a pagan, studied Wicca and was looking at initiation... but I couldn't get past the obvious BS involved in that. I bounced around several systems, and fortunately for me, I read the PD and it all suddenly became completely clear. That was followed up by Quantum Psychology, Angel Tech, Prometheus Rising etc and it led me to the position I now hold. Which basically boils down to 'I don't know, you don't know... but these moldy old books and scrolls are full of contradictions, errors and outright lies... therefore, we can discount them.

Everything else, seems pretty easily explainable by God being a Crazy Woman. 

As for the believers, I figure they can believe what they want, its all about embracing their nonsense, as well as the scientific sense

Holy shit. I knew you were a JW but that's some fucked up shit.

Some of the most fucked up experiences I recall though were the people at the door. My parents and I were doing the door knocking thing one Saturday. My mom was about 6 months pregnant. The lady at the door was very rude and told us to leave. My mom smiled and said "OK, well have a nice day." The lady came flying out of the door screaming "I WILL NOT HAVE A GOOD DAY" and then pushed my mom off of the porch. My dad was about three or four steps down and caught her before she bounced down the stairs. We quickly headed back to the car. Then the woman's husband came out of the barn with a corn cutter and started chasing us, waving it around. We got into the car and he began hitting the tr4unk of the car with the cutter screaming and yelling.

They were well known as very good Christians.

Another time, I was in the car and a teenage girl with her mom were walking up to the door. Before they could get there, the man opened the door, released a doberman and shut the door. They tried running back to the car, but the girl got attacked and by the time the men in the car got her free we had to take her to the hospital and her face was scarred for the rest of her life.

He was a lay preacher for one of the local churches.

I think its difficult to decide which is worse, parents risking the life of their kids because of some idiot belief, or people so violently opposed to a different religion that they would risk harming or killing people over it.

I hope it's not against the JW religion to press charges, but I'm guessing that it is. Were any of those assholes punished at all for that shit?

[Bruno]

Some people's religion is so awful it should probably be illegal to teach it to children. That is where I imagine most of the really enthusiastic atheists come from. I mean, can you imagine being raised by Michelle Bachmann and Ted Cruz? That's bound to leave some mental scars.

A disturbing number of children are brought up being told that the universe was, in a nutshell, created by a child molesting sky fairy who loves his children so much he will throw them down in his rape basement and sodomize them with his fire cock for ever and ever if they don't love him back hard enough. And also, (little billy/suzie), we love him more than we love you, because he says so.

I imagine some of them have some kind of PTSD or something caused by the childhood trauma of being raised by crazy people. They may even have some underlying genetic disorder. I have had a theory for a while that religious denominations tend to attract people of particular genetic mental predispositions. The beliefs of some of these denominations tend to discourage people from marrying outside the church, so they breed with other people with similar genetic predispositions. The resulting children then inherit this genetic predisposition and hand it down to their children. It's natural selection for crazy.

Somewhere there's a fascinating talk by Robert Sapolsky, who in fact shares at least significant portions of your opinion. It's pretty well-documented that there's a heritable component to many psychological disorders, including schizophrenia, which is relevant because the families of schizophrenics are more likely to hold irrational beliefs and show other signs of what has been named "Schizotypal Personality Disorder". It's not really a mental illness per se, but it does fit into a particular niche where a person is pretty much fully functional, but has beliefs that are clearly delusional. Socially-acceptable, perhaps eccentric, but delusional. The problem, of course, is that there is a spectrum effect and it's really really hard to say "This is where normal ends and schizotypal begins". Sapolsky's hypothesis is that, indeed, religion and similarly delusional beliefs are generated by this sort of mild madness, and then there is a sort of confirmation of popularity effect; you get enough slightly mad but functional and well-respected people believing the same delusional belief, perhaps you get a community leader who is charismatic and visionary (and slightly mad), and other people who aren't necessarily susceptible to delusions will start suspending their disbelief and going along with it, you get groupthink.

This talk is, of course, very controversial for a number of different reasons. It really pisses people off. I'll try to find it.   

I wold appreciate that. Hopefully, he is considering the possible effects of selective pressure on the genetics of the group due to the religion as well. I'd love to see a study on that.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So I was raised as a crazy JW... at the age of 6, I was hospitalized with a kidney problem. I had an operation with no blood transfusion permitted. In the days following the operation, the Doctor said that my blood count was dangerously low and that without a transfusion I may die. My parents refused and I recall vividly, crying and telling the Doctor that I would die faithful to Jehovah and 'please don't give me blood'. That, among many other experiences should probably have made me a screaming atheist. It didn't. After I left the JW's, I became a pagan, studied Wicca and was looking at initiation... but I couldn't get past the obvious BS involved in that. I bounced around several systems, and fortunately for me, I read the PD and it all suddenly became completely clear. That was followed up by Quantum Psychology, Angel Tech, Prometheus Rising etc and it led me to the position I now hold. Which basically boils down to 'I don't know, you don't know... but these moldy old books and scrolls are full of contradictions, errors and outright lies... therefore, we can discount them.

Everything else, seems pretty easily explainable by God being a Crazy Woman. 

As for the believers, I figure they can believe what they want, its all about embracing their nonsense, as well as the scientific sense

Holy shit. I knew you were a JW but that's some fucked up shit.

Some of the most fucked up experiences I recall though were the people at the door. My parents and I were doing the door knocking thing one Saturday. My mom was about 6 months pregnant. The lady at the door was very rude and told us to leave. My mom smiled and said "OK, well have a nice day." The lady came flying out of the door screaming "I WILL NOT HAVE A GOOD DAY" and then pushed my mom off of the porch. My dad was about three or four steps down and caught her before she bounced down the stairs. We quickly headed back to the car. Then the woman's husband came out of the barn with a corn cutter and started chasing us, waving it around. We got into the car and he began hitting the tr4unk of the car with the cutter screaming and yelling.

They were well known as very good Christians.

Another time, I was in the car and a teenage girl with her mom were walking up to the door. Before they could get there, the man opened the door, released a doberman and shut the door. They tried running back to the car, but the girl got attacked and by the time the men in the car got her free we had to take her to the hospital and her face was scarred for the rest of her life.

He was a lay preacher for one of the local churches.

I think its difficult to decide which is worse, parents risking the life of their kids because of some idiot belief, or people so violently opposed to a different religion that they would risk harming or killing people over it.

I hope it's not against the JW religion to press charges, but I'm guessing that it is. Were any of those assholes punished at all for that shit?

Sadly no. JW's will often not press charges because they don't want to reflect badly on the religion in the community. Its not forbidden, and they may encourage it now, I dunno. I've been gone for over a decade.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Some people's religion is so awful it should probably be illegal to teach it to children. That is where I imagine most of the really enthusiastic atheists come from. I mean, can you imagine being raised by Michelle Bachmann and Ted Cruz? That's bound to leave some mental scars.

A disturbing number of children are brought up being told that the universe was, in a nutshell, created by a child molesting sky fairy who loves his children so much he will throw them down in his rape basement and sodomize them with his fire cock for ever and ever if they don't love him back hard enough. And also, (little billy/suzie), we love him more than we love you, because he says so.

I imagine some of them have some kind of PTSD or something caused by the childhood trauma of being raised by crazy people. They may even have some underlying genetic disorder. I have had a theory for a while that religious denominations tend to attract people of particular genetic mental predispositions. The beliefs of some of these denominations tend to discourage people from marrying outside the church, so they breed with other people with similar genetic predispositions. The resulting children then inherit this genetic predisposition and hand it down to their children. It's natural selection for crazy.

Somewhere there's a fascinating talk by Robert Sapolsky, who in fact shares at least significant portions of your opinion. It's pretty well-documented that there's a heritable component to many psychological disorders, including schizophrenia, which is relevant because the families of schizophrenics are more likely to hold irrational beliefs and show other signs of what has been named "Schizotypal Personality Disorder". It's not really a mental illness per se, but it does fit into a particular niche where a person is pretty much fully functional, but has beliefs that are clearly delusional. Socially-acceptable, perhaps eccentric, but delusional. The problem, of course, is that there is a spectrum effect and it's really really hard to say "This is where normal ends and schizotypal begins". Sapolsky's hypothesis is that, indeed, religion and similarly delusional beliefs are generated by this sort of mild madness, and then there is a sort of confirmation of popularity effect; you get enough slightly mad but functional and well-respected people believing the same delusional belief, perhaps you get a community leader who is charismatic and visionary (and slightly mad), and other people who aren't necessarily susceptible to delusions will start suspending their disbelief and going along with it, you get groupthink.

This talk is, of course, very controversial for a number of different reasons. It really pisses people off. I'll try to find it.   

I wold appreciate that. Hopefully, he is considering the possible effects of selective pressure on the genetics of the group due to the religion as well. I'd love to see a study on that.

I posted links on the last page or so.

[Chelagoras The Boulder]

The discussion about humans being antennae or what have you for the greater common consciousness has prompted me to share an idea that a friend told me about - and I had another idea I want to share on the same topic.

a) my friend told me he had an idea that there are many more dimensions in reality than the ones that we perceive.  He thought maybe that certain processes in our brains happen in these dimensions that we don't perceive.  He felt that would be a good explanation for why we humans can't seem to develop A.I. - we are only modelling the processes that we can perceive when, perhaps, there are many other processes going on that we just can't measure or perceive.

b) I think the idea that we are all antennae transmitting and receiving signals from the greater common consciousness is pretty neat - but, why does there only have to be one?  Wouldn't it be interesting if there were two (or more) "common consciousnesses" - some people are tuned into one, some people are tuned into the other one.  Maybe some people are tuned into nothing - these would be the "robot" people.  Anyhow, just an idea.
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Also, on the subject of Agnosticism.  A few months back I had an idea to compile some sort of essay or book that I wanted to call the Truth about God
The basis for the writing would be that, it is impossible to know if the God you choose to believe in is real, or just a delusion.  But even given this uncertainty, certain truths can be arrived at.

For example.  "thou shalt not test God" - if God is real, you can certainly find examples of scripture that tell you not to test God.  But let's say God is a delusion - if you test your delusion, you give your delusion an opportunity to fail and then you will lose faith in your delusion.  If you want to maintain your faith in your belief - you should not test it lest it fail - whether your belief is "correct" or a delusion.

Another "truth" might be that - God will be with you if you want [him] to be.  Again, whether or not [he] is real doesn't matter.

I am curious if anyone would be interesting in collaborating on a list of truths in this vein.

I found a lot of these ideas interesting so excuse me while i try to organize my thoughts for each one in turn.

A)First thoughts about the whole common consciousness thing reminded me of the Alan Watts lectures my friend got my into recently(I know a lot of you have prolly heard of him, and may even be sick of him, but i've just heard him so he's news to me ) But basically he is a very entertaining Tao Buddhist, and one of the things he asserts is that the ego is an illusion, that we are all extensions of a universal consciousness, and that the separateness between you and I is false. Or to put it another way," I am me, as you are me, and we are all together. Koo koo katchoo."


B)As i said before, My current conception of gods is something like what occultists refer as egregores; ideas that have taken on a life of their own. Whether the judeo-christian god ACTUALLY crafted the universe himself out of nothing in 7 days and created mankind in his own image is irrelevant, what matters is that the story perpetuates, that the meaning isn't lost, because thats how stories(and gods are essentially stories) reproduce in the mind. People tell the stories of their gods, and what the stories mean, and those meanings are passed on to their kids and grandkids and whatever converts the religion surrounding the god gets. I once had a Norse friend of mine argue that the actions of the Christian church to stamp out or subvert the norse religion were actually planned by Loki, but that's a fun story for another day. My point is, from this perspective, some of the directives of organized religion make more sense. Imagine you are an entity that seeks to reproduce by having your story told and passed down. You would want to have your story passed down as much and by as many people as possible, and you would be in competition with other entities for the right to reproduce. so you'd make sure that part of your story includes the importance of passing the story on to others and discouraging the telling of alternative stories to maximize your chance of survival. You would necessarily change and adapt your story in order to fit the people you want to tell your story and the time in which its being told.

Sound familiar?

There is evidence to support that stories are how our minds encode meaning into easily understood and transmitted segments, they're the easiest way for us to construct meaning from our random chaos of experiences. So whether or not God or Loki or Eris is simply a story isn't the issue, the issue is what effects those encoded meaning have on our world. Gods influence and move people in certain ways every single day, whether they pray to them or not. Whether they're trying to follow their command, or in the case of hardcore atheists, rebelling against them, people finding meaning in things that may or may not have it seems to be what we do: we spend so much time either creating, consuming, or evaluating created meanings in the forms of shows, books, songs, really all forms of culture. Even taking culture out of the equation, science and philosophy have grappled for millenia to find absolute meaning in the universe, some truth that sits in the center of everything like a Peach Pit of Creation, but now we're finding that the universe may be more subjective than that. Neil DeGrasse Tyson has been quoted saying that the universe created us to help the universe understand itself. or to put THAT another way, The universe tells us what we are, and we tell the universe what it is.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

To touch on one very small part of what you've said, it isn't even possible to take cultures out of the picture, as we all inherently filter every single piece of information we collect through our cultural egregore.

[hooplala]

I think what Chelagoras is true.  In our North American culture its almost irrelevant whether or not the Judeo-Christian god is real or not, because we act like it is, either way.  As much as the separation of church and state is an ideal (and it isn't even where I live.  Canada doesn't even try to deny that this is a Christian nation. Derp) the whole bible issue is jerked into situation after situation where it should have no place whatsoever.  And again, this is why I think there are so many people who feel they need to define themselves against an idea.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Speak for yourself, white man.

[hooplala]

Speak for yourself, white man.

What part of what I wrote did you disagree with?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Speak for yourself, white man.

What part of what I wrote did you disagree with?

Partly the "we" thing, and partly just being tongue-in-cheek. Because, as I've mentioned before, the culture in the NW is very NOT "we act like God exists whether he does or not". So, there's some YMMV stuff in there.

[hooplala]

Speak for yourself, white man.

What part of what I wrote did you disagree with?

Partly the "we" thing, and partly just being tongue-in-cheek. Because, as I've mentioned before, the culture in the NW is very NOT "we act like God exists whether he does or not". So, there's some YMMV stuff in there.

There's no swearing on a bible in court?  Or does that not happen anymore?  Does your Pledge of Allegiance not mention the ultimate Big Brother?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Speak for yourself, white man.

What part of what I wrote did you disagree with?

Partly the "we" thing, and partly just being tongue-in-cheek. Because, as I've mentioned before, the culture in the NW is very NOT "we act like God exists whether he does or not". So, there's some YMMV stuff in there.

There's no swearing on a bible in court?  Or does that not happen anymore?  Does your Pledge of Allegiance not mention the ultimate Big Brother?

I have never actually heard the Pledge of Allegiance in person, and they don't say it at my children's schools. I know they say it as an optional thing in some schools, I just haven't encountered it.

There's no bible in court!

[hooplala]

Speak for yourself, white man.

What part of what I wrote did you disagree with?

Partly the "we" thing, and partly just being tongue-in-cheek. Because, as I've mentioned before, the culture in the NW is very NOT "we act like God exists whether he does or not". So, there's some YMMV stuff in there.

There's no swearing on a bible in court?  Or does that not happen anymore?  Does your Pledge of Allegiance not mention the ultimate Big Brother?

I have never actually heard the Pledge of Allegiance in person, and they don't say it at my children's schools. I know they say it as an optional thing in some schools, I just haven't encountered it.

There's no bible in court!

I guess my info is well outta date.  Oh well, what do I know...

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It says "in god we trust" on the money though, which is pretty stupid. But we don't print that, and it doesn't specify which god anyway. Considering how much strife money generates, I'll just assume it's Eris.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Speak for yourself, white man.

What part of what I wrote did you disagree with?

Partly the "we" thing, and partly just being tongue-in-cheek. Because, as I've mentioned before, the culture in the NW is very NOT "we act like God exists whether he does or not". So, there's some YMMV stuff in there.

There's no swearing on a bible in court?  Or does that not happen anymore?  Does your Pledge of Allegiance not mention the ultimate Big Brother?

I have never actually heard the Pledge of Allegiance in person, and they don't say it at my children's schools. I know they say it as an optional thing in some schools, I just haven't encountered it.

There's no bible in court!

I guess my info is well outta date.  Oh well, what do I know...

Or things really are like that in states like Alabama and Mississippi, and it's just that the culture in Oregon and Washington are different from a lot of other places in the US.

I remember the Bible thing in Perry Mason, so maybe they used to do that and it's become part of the "American Courtroom" trope.