To the undecided voters

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I hope all of you militant pro-voting people ARE ALSO GUN OWNERS, or else there's a lot of hypocrisy in this thread.

Owning guns and voting so NOT the same thing, kthxbye.  Owning a gun doesn't decide who sits on the throne, Nigel.  Owning a gun doesn't put bread on the table and water in the pipes.  It doesn't make roads and build hospitals, it doesn't teach my kids when they are little.

Owning a gun is like drinking alcohol.  You can do it or not.

It's a Constitutional right, and if you, as an American, according to your own logic, have a patriotic duty to exercise that right, lest you be stripped of it.

K, now I'll go eat babies.

Is that a Constitutional Right?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Owning guns and voting so NOT the same thing, kthxbye.  Owning a gun doesn't decide who sits on the throne, Nigel.  Owning a gun doesn't put bread on the table and water in the pipes.  It doesn't make roads and build hospitals, it doesn't teach my kids when they are little.

Maybe we can get a law passed to FORCE everyone to VOTE! I mean sure, we'll have to throw the religious groups that are 'neutral' in prison. Maybe execute a couple of those assholes like GA that simply don't want to vote... or maybe we should just fine her $500 for every election she doesn't attend.

This is a touchy subject for me, I came from a neutral religion and I know Americans that were persecuted for being neutral here in the states, to the point of being left for dead. Thousands of European Witnesses died in the concentration camps of Nazis, simply for refusing to say 'Hiel Hitler', surely not voting should get you worse than that! All over the world, from the USSR to Malawi, JW's have died because they decided not to participate in the political process.

So, in my opinion, I vote. I don't think it's appropriate to demand that of any other person though.

No it's not, but it should never be applauded when people don't give a shit enough to do so, however.  I don't believe in persecution, but I will not laud them and say, "Oh, that's allright!" or "Cool man, you're so punk rock!" either.

Then why say anything?

Also, I think Nigel's point was the "If you don't USE your RIGHT, you will LOSE your RIGHT" as applied to voting... but yet doesn't get applied to Guns... or to every Cop that says "Mind if I have a look around".

I don't think that there is any evidence to support the idea that if we don't use freedoms we lose them. I think that some societies have lost freedoms because they gave them up temporarily, or their government simply took all their rights etc. Yet, I can't think of a single example of this mantra I hear about "Use it or Lose it".

Yes, Rat. Thank you!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I hope all of you militant pro-voting people ARE ALSO GUN OWNERS, or else there's a lot of hypocrisy in this thread.

Owning guns and voting so NOT the same thing, kthxbye.  Owning a gun doesn't decide who sits on the throne, Nigel.  Owning a gun doesn't put bread on the table and water in the pipes.  It doesn't make roads and build hospitals, it doesn't teach my kids when they are little.

Owning a gun is like drinking alcohol.  You can do it or not.

It's a Constitutional right, and if you, as an American, according to your own logic, have a patriotic duty to exercise that right, lest you be stripped of it.

K, now I'll go eat babies.

That's funny, I don't remember that part of the Constitution. Refresh my memory...?

[Jenne]

It has as much to do with voting as stripping of rights due to nonvoting.  I never said you'd be stripped, I said you would be letting in those who could and probably will do so.  I never said any punitive action should come upon you, I'm pointing to very clear events of the past 8 years.

Let me ask you this, Rat and Nigel, since you two are obviously playing the Devils Children here:

Are the Bill of Rights in more or less jeopardy since Dubya took power?

And answer from your gut,  not some bullshit philosophy.

I rarely get rabid over something I'm not directly involved in, but like I said, I am really too close those who do not have these rights and have fought almost daily for them, fled persecution and near-death to have them, so I don't understand the logic that leaving people alone for not voting or even praising them for it is excusable or right.

The laissez-fairness of American politics is directly responsible for how it is run.  And no amount of rhetoric to the opposite will move me on this.

[Jenne]

I hope all of you militant pro-voting people ARE ALSO GUN OWNERS, or else there's a lot of hypocrisy in this thread.

Owning guns and voting so NOT the same thing, kthxbye.  Owning a gun doesn't decide who sits on the throne, Nigel.  Owning a gun doesn't put bread on the table and water in the pipes.  It doesn't make roads and build hospitals, it doesn't teach my kids when they are little.

Owning a gun is like drinking alcohol.  You can do it or not.

It's a Constitutional right, and if you, as an American, according to your own logic, have a patriotic duty to exercise that right, lest you be stripped of it.

K, now I'll go eat babies.

That's funny, I don't remember that part of the Constitution. Refresh my memory...?

Point to wear my logic had such fallacies and I didn't explain exactly what I meant.  You're putting words in my mouth.

Why you are doing so is beyond me.  So I'm outta here before I blow a gasket.  I responded above.

*zip*

[AFK]

Short of martial-law, the implications of gun ownership are much narrower than the implications of voting.  So, aside from both being Constitutional, they are not on the same level.  And in fact, the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, to a certain degree, is linked to the exercising of the right to vote.  

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It has as much to do with voting as stripping of rights due to nonvoting.  I never said you'd be stripped, I said you would be letting in those who could and probably will do so.  I never said any punitive action should come upon you, I'm pointing to very clear events of the past 8 years.

Let me ask you this, Rat and Nigel, since you two are obviously playing the Devils Children here:

Are the Bill of Rights in more or less jeopardy since Dubya took power?

And answer from your gut,  not some bullshit philosophy.

I rarely get rabid over something I'm not directly involved in, but like I said, I am really too close those who do not have these rights and have fought almost daily for them, fled persecution and near-death to have them, so I don't understand the logic that leaving people alone for not voting or even praising them for it is excusable or right.

The laissez-fairness of American politics is directly responsible for how it is run.  And no amount of rhetoric to the opposite will move me on this.

The Bill of Rights is in jeopardy more now than before Bush. However, the election of 2004 was the highest turnout since the early 60's... AND THEY REELECTED THE IDIOT. People voted, LOTS of people voted... and now, as you correctly point out, we are at a greater risk of losing freedoms than before.

NOT because we didn't vote, but rather because we either A) voted poorly, or B) had the election stolen from us, or C) The parts of the government that are supposed to keep check on each other didn't, or D) All of the Above.

Lots of people voted... and lots of them for some ungodly reason voted for the ass that was taking pot shots at our rights and freedoms.

I personally think voting is important. But, I also think that not voting, is neither irresponsible, unpatriotic or wrong. It's a choice, an opportunity to include your opinion in with the rest of the voters opinions and hope that someone somewhere might listen.

I cannot fathom why someone would assume that they KNOW what another person OUGHT to do.  

[That One Guy]

I hope all of you militant pro-voting people ARE ALSO GUN OWNERS, or else there's a lot of hypocrisy in this thread.

Owning guns and voting so NOT the same thing, kthxbye.  Owning a gun doesn't decide who sits on the throne, Nigel.  Owning a gun doesn't put bread on the table and water in the pipes.  It doesn't make roads and build hospitals, it doesn't teach my kids when they are little.

Owning a gun is like drinking alcohol.  You can do it or not.

Except that unlike drinking alcohol, it's a Constitutional right, and if you, as an American, according to your own logic, have a patriotic duty to exercise that right, lest you be stripped of it.

2nd Amendment:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

All that says is that people have to be able to own firearms, and that ability to own them shall not be infringed. It doesn't say anyone HAS to own a gun. Whether anyone actually owns a gun or not is unrelated as long as the ability to "keep and bear arms" is not infringed. Also, if enough people and states vote to amend the Constitution to remove that right, then it's removed by an additional amendment, via voting (another right that could theoretically be amended out, but either of those things happening are admittedly rather unlikely).

Now, I don't think Jenne's analogy is all that great, but there IS a relation to alcohol, constitutional amendments and voting.  The 18th amendment prohibited the sale of alcohol. It was ratified by the states and made it constitutionally prohibited to sell alcohol. The 21st amendment repealed the constitutional ban on alcohol sales, while still allowing the banning on a state and/or local level.

Just because it's in the Constitution doesn't make it written in stone, since the constitution can be amended. By voting.

[Kai]

Tragedy of the Commons politics. 

I don't have to vote because everyone else will. 

Tragedy of the Commons in EVERY respect is the result of apathy.

[Golden Applesauce]

Tragedy of the Commons politics. 

I don't have to vote because everyone else will. 

Tragedy of the Commons in EVERY respect is the result of apathy.

No, it's the result of rational people acting in their own self interest.

ETA: Jenne, you're so easy to troll.

[AFK]

 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Let me ask you this, Rat and Nigel, since you two are obviously playing the Devils Children here:

I think it's pretty funny that you think I'm playing Devil's Advocate. Actually, I find it outright offensive when political proselytizers push their views on anyone, INCLUDING THE VIEW THAT NOT VOTING IS WRONG.

Frankly, I think that only people who have taken the time to truly educate themselves on the issues and candidates should vote. If I haven't had time to read up on a measure, I won't vote on it. You can get more people to vote with your incessant berating, but can you get more of them to vote in an informed manner?

No.

I think whether or not someone votes is their own personal business. It's private.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I hope all of you militant pro-voting people ARE ALSO GUN OWNERS, or else there's a lot of hypocrisy in this thread.

Owning guns and voting so NOT the same thing, kthxbye.  Owning a gun doesn't decide who sits on the throne, Nigel.  Owning a gun doesn't put bread on the table and water in the pipes.  It doesn't make roads and build hospitals, it doesn't teach my kids when they are little.

Owning a gun is like drinking alcohol.  You can do it or not.

Except that unlike drinking alcohol, it's a Constitutional right, and if you, as an American, according to your own logic, have a patriotic duty to exercise that right, lest you be stripped of it.

2nd Amendment:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

All that says is that people have to be able to own firearms, and that ability to own them shall not be infringed. It doesn't say anyone HAS to own a gun. Whether anyone actually owns a gun or not is unrelated as long as the ability to "keep and bear arms" is not infringed. Also, if enough people and states vote to amend the Constitution to remove that right, then it's removed by an additional amendment, via voting (another right that could theoretically be amended out, but either of those things happening are admittedly rather unlikely).

Now, I don't think Jenne's analogy is all that great, but there IS a relation to alcohol, constitutional amendments and voting.  The 18th amendment prohibited the sale of alcohol. It was ratified by the states and made it constitutionally prohibited to sell alcohol. The 21st amendment repealed the constitutional ban on alcohol sales, while still allowing the banning on a state and/or local level.

Just because it's in the Constitution doesn't make it written in stone, since the constitution can be amended. By voting.

Yes, but part of Jenne's argument is that everyone should vote BECAUSE rights that we do not use are rights we risk losing. My point is that people who are adamant about other people having an obligation to vote, if they are going to use the "use it or lose it" argument, should be consistent by USING the other rights guaranteed us in the Constitution.

It's called logical consistency, bitches. Learn it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also, as far as undecided voters are concerned, someone else (Squiddy?) said it first and I think she was right; much of the time "Undecided" is shorthand for MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS.

[AFK]

Let me ask you this, Rat and Nigel, since you two are obviously playing the Devils Children here:

I think it's pretty funny that you think I'm playing Devil's Advocate. Actually, I find it outright offensive when political proselytizers push their views on anyone, INCLUDING THE VIEW THAT NOT VOTING IS WRONG.

Frankly, I think that only people who have taken the time to truly educate themselves on the issues and candidates should vote. If I haven't had time to read up on a measure, I won't vote on it. You can get more people to vote with your incessant berating, but can you get more of them to vote in an informed manner?

No.

I think whether or not someone votes is their own personal business. It's private.

I don't read Jenne as saying it is outright wrong.  I read it, and believe it myself, that it is a good thing to empower people to vote.  Voting is the most direct, and legal, way we have to influence the direction of our country.  Yes, in the end, whether a person votes or not is their personal, and individual choice.  However, I don't think it is wrong for someone like Jenne, or myself, to try to educate the public on important issues and to then encourage them to exercise their rights and civic duties as U.S. citizens.  Certainly, people have the right to not vote, but I feel this country is better off when more voices are heard.