Pot/drugs: An all-encompassing explanation.

[Triple Zero]

So, is it that you are incapable of having that experience without going to find new places?

[East Coast Hustle]

No, because I was describing my own experiences.  You would only be close-minded if you dismissed, out of hand, that any pot can play any positive role in the journey an individual takes towards a higher awareness of what it means to be a sentient creature.

But the fact that I've managed to become a fellow with a pretty open mind, able to comprehend and explore and understand that reality is as expansive as it is, without lifting a joint or doing any other kind of drug, well, that runs counter to the idea you seem to be suggesting which is that drugs are necessary to tap into , or catalyze, that kind of awareness.  So, obviously you are incorrect.  

Further, I would argue that relying upon chemicals is only circumventing the real problem.  Which is that you seem to be existing in an environment that is not conducive to you being able to consider a more expansive model of reality.  So, when the drugs wear off, those same roadblocks are there.  

Umm, no.  It's not that our brain has receptors made for mind altering substances.  It's that our brain was outfitted with receptors designed for our natural brain chemistry, but when you introduce foreign chemicals, you experience the highs of the drugs.  Or, the drugs breakdown into components that mimic our natural brain chemistry, and amp it up.  No matter how you slice it, it is not natural.  And no, we aren't unique.  Anything with a brain can experience the results of having that brain altered with chemicals.  

the pleasure center wins out far too often with some.  
I don't believe in intelligent design.  Your usage of "natural" is strange to me - virtually nothing about our environment is "natural" - if we used that for our yardstick then we wouldn't have even started living in caves or using tools.

I'm not talking about intelligent design.  I'm talking about the idea that humans come packaged with a certain chemistry set.  If nature believed it was beneficial for us to have these chemicals in our system, it would likely be more common than not that they were in our system.  No, indeed, nature has decided that many of these mind-altering chemicals, are actualy pretty harmful to our bodies, and have developed symptoms and side-effects to warn us of that fact.  Unfortunately,

horseshit. if that was the case, we wouldn't need to eat food to get the ESSENTIAL amino acids that our body doesn't naturally produce.

[AFK]

To me, "Higher Awareness" is simply a better understanding.  I don't believe in ghosts.

So, is it that you are incapable of having that experience without drugs?  If so, why do you suppose that is?  If not, then why would you use drugs?   

Why not?

Alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine are all drugs. Do you use any of them?

Caffeine, yes.  But I don't have the belief that it is taking me to some magickal chemical-induced fantasy land that can't be accessed by other means.  I like the taste of coffee.  That's pretty much the extent of it. 

[AFK]

Confirmation bias. 

So you are arguing that none of these substances actually alter your cognitive process?

What I'm arguing is that if you like doing drugs, fine, say you like doing drugs.  In my business, I've heard all of the attempts to make drug use sound sexier and more high-brow.  That it is for higher learning, out of body experiences, and other transcendental horseshit.  Yeah, it's screwing with your brain cells and causes some pretty vivid day dreams, but you aren't unlocking doors that couldn't be unlocked through deep thought, listening to music, sky diving, hiking, or some other natural high.  People do drugs because they like the feeling.  Because the chemicals in drugs go crazy and have a huge chemical orgy in your pleasure center.  There is no magick beyond that, other than what you convince yourself of to make your drug use seem like something higher than it is. 

[AFK]

No, because I was describing my own experiences.  You would only be close-minded if you dismissed, out of hand, that any pot can play any positive role in the journey an individual takes towards a higher awareness of what it means to be a sentient creature.

But the fact that I've managed to become a fellow with a pretty open mind, able to comprehend and explore and understand that reality is as expansive as it is, without lifting a joint or doing any other kind of drug, well, that runs counter to the idea you seem to be suggesting which is that drugs are necessary to tap into , or catalyze, that kind of awareness.  So, obviously you are incorrect.  

Further, I would argue that relying upon chemicals is only circumventing the real problem.  Which is that you seem to be existing in an environment that is not conducive to you being able to consider a more expansive model of reality.  So, when the drugs wear off, those same roadblocks are there.  

Umm, no.  It's not that our brain has receptors made for mind altering substances.  It's that our brain was outfitted with receptors designed for our natural brain chemistry, but when you introduce foreign chemicals, you experience the highs of the drugs.  Or, the drugs breakdown into components that mimic our natural brain chemistry, and amp it up.  No matter how you slice it, it is not natural.  And no, we aren't unique.  Anything with a brain can experience the results of having that brain altered with chemicals.  

the pleasure center wins out far too often with some.  
I don't believe in intelligent design.  Your usage of "natural" is strange to me - virtually nothing about our environment is "natural" - if we used that for our yardstick then we wouldn't have even started living in caves or using tools.

I'm not talking about intelligent design.  I'm talking about the idea that humans come packaged with a certain chemistry set.  If nature believed it was beneficial for us to have these chemicals in our system, it would likely be more common than not that they were in our system.  No, indeed, nature has decided that many of these mind-altering chemicals, are actualy pretty harmful to our bodies, and have developed symptoms and side-effects to warn us of that fact.  Unfortunately,

horseshit. if that was the case, we wouldn't need to eat food to get the ESSENTIAL amino acids that our body doesn't naturally produce.

Yes, unfortunately the laws of thermodynamics do require us to acuqire sustenance.  There is no requirement for our brain to be exposed to the chemicals in illicit drugs.  If we all stop eating.  We will all die.  If we all stop using drugs, life will go on just fine. 

[AFK]

That is ridiculous. With shrooms I experienced some mental states that I could have never experienced without drugs. Except maybe through years of meditation practice and yoga or something. Maybe, cause I wouldn't know.

And yes, some of those experiences are pretty damn valuable to me.

I'm sure the people in the dark ages who had sharp sticks jabbed into their skulls experienced new mental states as well.  But, of course, the physical lobotomies didn't fellate the pleasure center the way chemical lobotomies do. 

[nuclearcabbage]

i am under the impression that "natural" things/events are pretty much anything and everything we can imagine...

how can anything be "unnatural"?

where does all this "unnatural" shit come from?

does it come from this completely "natural" universe?

[AFK]

I would never presume to make assumptions about the conclusions you come to, as that would be retarded. However, in a very specific context, not ever having personally experienced any illicit drugs DOES leave a gap in your knowledge and credibility when the subject comes up, and I know you have a vast collection of data to draw from but surely you aren't going to say that personal experience is irrelevant? So in this very specific context, your lack of experiential evidence does leave you unable to be fully open-minded about the subject at hand.

I've, professionally, collected enough evidence from peer research and first hand testimonials from drug addicts to come to some pretty sound educated and informed conclusions.  Take that as you will.  

[President Television]

Yes, unfortunately the laws of thermodynamics do require us to acuqire sustenance.  There is no requirement for our brain to be exposed to the chemicals in illicit drugs.  If we all stop eating.  We will all die.  If we all stop using drugs, life will go on just fine. 

dude... if all the world leaders smoked weed we wouldnt have war... just saying...
\

[AFK]

i am under the impression that "natural" things/events are pretty much anything and everything we can imagine...

how can anything be "unnatural"?

where does all this "unnatural" shit come from?

does it come from this completely "natural" universe?

Geez, it's pretty fucking obvious that the context of "natural" is being applied to what the human body is used to dealing with and what is isn't.  So, you can play your fancy pants pedantry game and call an iPod natural.  Now, try eating your iPod and see what happens.  Please let me know how that comes out.  

[AFK]

Yes, unfortunately the laws of thermodynamics do require us to acuqire sustenance.  There is no requirement for our brain to be exposed to the chemicals in illicit drugs.  If we all stop eating.  We will all die.  If we all stop using drugs, life will go on just fine. 

dude... if all the world leaders smoked weed we wouldnt have war... just saying...
\

Am I supposed to laugh?

[Captain Utopia]

To me, "Higher Awareness" is simply a better understanding.  I don't believe in ghosts.

So, you get a better understanding by muddying up your cognitive processes?

No.  But I do believe that I came to a better understanding of my cognitive processes.  Part of that involved stepping outside of my regular processes using pot.  A much larger part was analysing that new data - while completely sober - and throwing out anything which was nonsense.

So, is it that you are incapable of having that experience without drugs?  If so, why do you suppose that is?  If not, then why would you use drugs?   

No.  I did not state that the perspective gained, through a process which uses pot, is a perspective which cannot be also found through meditation/yoga/magic the gathering/etc.

No, because I was describing my own experiences.  You would only be close-minded if you dismissed, out of hand, that any pot can play any positive role in the journey an individual takes towards a higher awareness of what it means to be a sentient creature.

But the fact that I've managed to become a fellow with a pretty open mind, able to comprehend and explore and understand that reality is as expansive as it is, without lifting a joint or doing any other kind of drug, well, that runs counter to the idea you seem to be suggesting which is that drugs are necessary to tap into , or catalyze, that kind of awareness.  So, obviously you are incorrect. 

I tried to make my point as clearly as I could but I didn't make this argument you seem to keep reading into my words.

[Doktor Howl]

To me, "Higher Awareness" is simply a better understanding.  I don't believe in ghosts.

So, you get a better understanding by muddying up your cognitive processes?

No.  But I do believe that I came to a better understanding of my cognitive processes.  Part of that involved stepping outside of my regular processes using pot.  A much larger part was analysing that new data - while completely sober - and throwing out anything which was nonsense.

Okay, I can buy that.

[Captain Utopia]

I would never presume to make assumptions about the conclusions you come to, as that would be retarded. However, in a very specific context, not ever having personally experienced any illicit drugs DOES leave a gap in your knowledge and credibility when the subject comes up, and I know you have a vast collection of data to draw from but surely you aren't going to say that personal experience is irrelevant? So in this very specific context, your lack of experiential evidence does leave you unable to be fully open-minded about the subject at hand.

I've, professionally, collected enough evidence from peer research and first hand testimonials from drug addicts to come to some pretty sound educated and informed conclusions.  Take that as you will.  

I have some sympathy for this position - when Mrs FP started talking about all the thelemetic (?) experiences I was missing out on, which couldn't be explained without doing a few years of various rituals and exercises, it occurred to me then that if you brainwash yourself in a structured way like that, you will end up believing anything.

So I "pfff'd", and to this day we agree to disagree on that

Ideas and philosophies, which were conceived of by people who were high at the time, can be tested more objectively though.  If those people have solid ideas, and say that their experiences helped them form certain concepts, is there a need to discredit them for the intentional modifications they made to their own brain chemistry?

[AFK]

So, is it that you are incapable of having that experience without drugs?  If so, why do you suppose that is?  If not, then why would you use drugs?   

No.  I did not state that the perspective gained, through a process which uses pot, is a perspective which cannot be also found through meditation/yoga/magic the gathering/etc.

So, then why do you choose to use drugs for this perspective as opposed to a method that doesn't involve illicit drugs?