The future doesn't want you

[Doktor Howl]

Hope is easily crushed.  It's an internet sport you know.  So if you don't have a fully-formed bullet-proof set of plans, it might be better to keep them to a incubative audience until they are mature enough... oops you already posted, good luck

I see.  We are incapable of rendering an honest critique.

[Doktor Howl]

Okay then. I'll start with the long one. This plan will admittedly take most of my life to complete, has a high chance of failure, and requires that I have a sizable amount of money.

Human beings tend to think in the language they first learned, their native tongue. If I see a picture of the word horse, I'll probably think the word horse, rather than its French or Chinese equivalents, even if I know them. So, going off this principle, thought patterns tend to reflect the language. If certain concepts are emphasized by a language, such as there being more ways to express or describe that concept, then those concepts will become more common and focused in the minds of people raised in that language. The reverse is also true, a concept that has fewer ways to describe it, and with a negative sound and connotation, will become less dominant in the psyche.

Now, the plan is to construct a language that emphasizes concepts such as open mindedness, thinking in the long term, understanding, and similar while steering away from bigotry, short sightedness, etc. Then this language needs to be instituted among people, preferably so that it can spread as quickly as possible. With any luck, after a couple centuries, the people raised into this language will be more open minded and more likely to consider long term consequences.

I plan to acquire the  services of linguists, psycholinguists, sociolinguists, sociologists, psychologists, artists, and other experts to design this language. Once it is finished, I will attempt to get it instituted two ways. Preferably, it would function as an educational language for young children, allowing them to learn other languages easier. Less preferably, I would advertise it as a trade language, once again to do it incorporating elements of other languages. With time and a lot of luck, more and more people will speak this language, and raise their kids with this language.

I'm going to be in the planning stage for the next decade or so, learning about conlang, getting the resources together, finding and picking the experts I'll need. If this stage works out well, then I'll move it into action.

This plan is very unlikely to succeed, due to the costs and numerous uncertainties involved. And even if it did succeed I would not live to see it do so. That's why I'm working on other plans. I plan to have as many different plans as possible, so that I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket.

Now, if you want, you can critique this plan. I'll post the short term one afterwards. Ask me anything you want.

Oh and we might want to split the thread, since we're going onto a completely new topic.

It's original, and - despite other comments here - not a rehash of Esperanto, which was developed as an attempt at a standardized language, rather than a standardized language designed to change how people think.  I think the idea has merit, though the process of putting it in place may be far more difficult than you think, for many reasons (religion, for example, in the case of the ME).  I have a few other concerns, but I need to boot them around a bit before responding properly.  Sometime this week, I'm thinking.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I like the optimism... At this point I'm only optimistic that I can improve myself... the rest of the world is likely on its own :-/

I think language is an excellent point of attack (see General Semantics for similar thinking)... However, getting people to change their language seems damn near impossible (I no longer use ePrime because even Discordians shat on me for it )

[Doktor Howl]

I like the optimism... At this point I'm only optimistic that I can improve myself... the rest of the world is likely on its own :-/

I think language is an excellent point of attack (see General Semantics for similar thinking)... However, getting people to change their language seems damn near impossible (I no longer use ePrime because even Discordians shat on me for it )

Eprime isn't a language change, it's a language fad. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I like the optimism... At this point I'm only optimistic that I can improve myself... the rest of the world is likely on its own :-/

I think language is an excellent point of attack (see General Semantics for similar thinking)... However, getting people to change their language seems damn near impossible (I no longer use ePrime because even Discordians shat on me for it )

Eprime isn't a language change, it's a language fad. 

So what's the difference?

[The Wizard]

It's original, and - despite other comments here - not a rehash of Esperanto, which was developed as an attempt at a standardized language, rather than a standardized language designed to change how people think.  I think the idea has merit, though the process of putting it in place may be far more difficult than you think, for many reasons (religion, for example, in the case of the ME).  I have a few other concerns, but I need to boot them around a bit before responding properly.  Sometime this week, I'm thinking.

Fair enough. I'm still in the planning stage, and the early planning stage at that. Also, I also lack world experience, so I'm a bit of a disadvantage right now when it comes to predicting difficulties.

I'm looking forward to the other points. The more kinks I get out of this plan, the more likely I can get it past the planning stage.

[Doktor Howl]

I like the optimism... At this point I'm only optimistic that I can improve myself... the rest of the world is likely on its own :-/

I think language is an excellent point of attack (see General Semantics for similar thinking)... However, getting people to change their language seems damn near impossible (I no longer use ePrime because even Discordians shat on me for it )

Eprime isn't a language change, it's a language fad. 

So what's the difference?

1.  One will last, the other is an MBA-esque fad that won't last.

2.  Drawing on a torn pair of jeans won't repair the rip.

[Cramulus]

The point of e-prime was very similar to what Dr JS is going for. By reminding humans that their point of view is subjective and time sensitive, you end up sidestepping a lot of arguments and confusion. ESPECIALLY in arguments and discussions about subjective things. I've found that over time, e-prime helped change the way I think, making me more tolerant and understanding. At times, it also paralyzes me with uncertainty, but I think that's just something you have to fight through if you think about thinking too much. 

[P3nT4gR4m]

Maybe the easiest way isn't to try and replace the language with a new one but to supplant it with new words and concepts. The thing about any living language is that they are constantly evolving. New words and phrases come into general usage for any number of reasons, maybe something new is invented like a "computer" and they need a whole bunch of new words or re appropriation of existing ones in order to describe all the things about it and stuff it can do. Maybe popular culture will make a new phrase or slang term globally popular. Right now most english speaking persons would find it difficult to talk to someone speaking the "same" language from a hundred or so years ago. That's because, ship of theseus-fashion we're not speaking the same english anymore.

Reason I'm pointing this out is that it would appear to make the implementation infinitely easier if you approach it in this manner. Come up with the whole language by all means, and cover all the conceptual stuff and then work out how to introduce these words or concepts, one at a time - that's where artists and poets and all the rest will be helpful for "marketing" these words and memes to the public. I still think this will be awesome hard to pull off but not as hard as getting the world to buy into a new language. Of course I'd expect a snowball effect if you do it internationally and cross-languages. Like every new word  or phrase would be the same in every language. Eventually people might realise how handy it is to be able to say the same word the world over and then be more inclined to buy into new words to add to the collection.

[Doktor Howl]

The point of e-prime was very similar to what Dr JS is going for. By reminding humans that their point of view is subjective and time sensitive, you end up sidestepping a lot of arguments and confusion. ESPECIALLY in arguments and discussions about subjective things. I've found that over time, e-prime helped change the way I think, making me more tolerant and understanding. At times, it also paralyzes me with uncertainty, but I think that's just something you have to fight through if you think about thinking too much. 

Actually, you make your communications vaguer, more suceptable to misinterpretation or willful twisting of intent.

E Prime might have been a stab at a solution, but it wasn't well thought out, and seems to have been designed by management consultants to help upper management find a way to keep mid-level managers in a constant state of uncertainty and fear.  I have no idea if that's really how it was developed, but that is certainly the result.

Some things ARE objective and absolute, and in some cases it's better to make your case that way (the industrial maintenance field is an excellent example of this).  It's hard to argue that a physical impossibility demanded by a boss can't be done if you speak in mush-mouth about it.

I like Dr Semaj's idea.  E Prime is not, however, what I think he was talking about.  It is a language of slaves, to be perfectly honest.  It is possible to develop a language that changes the way people think, without removing their capability to be assertive.

[Doktor Howl]

Maybe the easiest way isn't to try and replace the language with a new one but to supplant it with new words and concepts.

That makes communication easier in some ways, but more difficult in others.

And it doesn't address the primary objective:  To change the way people think, in their formative years.

You can see where one of my concerns is going to be.

[Cramulus]

For example, if I didn't think in e-prime, I might have forgotten that roger's acidic description of e-prime as a "language of slaves designed by management consultants to foster uncertainty and fear" is his subjective opinion based in part on his revulsion towards RAW and the people who like him.   

[Doktor Howl]

For example, if I didn't think in e-prime, I might have forgotten that roger's acidic description of e-prime as a "language of slaves designed by management consultants to foster uncertainty and fear" is his subjective opinion based in part on his revulsion towards RAW and the people who like him.   

1.  I don't have a revulsion to RAW.  I've read many of his books (fiction and non-fiction) several times.  I DO take exception to the fact that he can't finish a book without a chapter of James Joyce babbling (he seems to have a problem with ending a story), but other than that, he's okay.  The Schroedinger's Cat Trilogy is in my top ten list.  I don't even have revulsion for people who like him...provided, of course, that "like" doesn't translate to "fan boy" or "religious follower", as is sometimes the case.

2.  It's not an opinion, so much as an admittedly untested hypothesis (as I am going off of limited data). 

[LMNO]

"Kill your idols, but take notes first."

[Doktor Howl]

"Kill your idols, but take notes first."

This.

RAW was a well-meaning hippie with a taste for soft core porn in his writing, that took some really good ideas from Leary and popularized them.  So far, so good.

However, when he is quoted as an unimpeachable authority, that's when I start to have a problem.

And E Prime really IS a good way to keep subordinates in line.  For real.