Horror-mirth and reaction formation

[Nephew Twiddleton]

There are a lot of good points here. And I wasn't saying you were promoting apathy. I'm just saying some people are or prefer it, and that's what is unhealthy. Like Phox's acquaintance in the other thread. He's promoting the ignorance is bliss thing, because if you don't care about something you can't get hurt. Stuff sucks so just ignore it. As far as me joking at funerals, it's also a knowledge that the deceased person theoretically cares about the people who came to their funeral, and would be hurt to see them sad. I'm doing a favor for the corpse. And when times suck politically and economically, comics suddenly get funnier routines.

Sum of up some of Cram's points: "These things too, shall pass"

Also, there is a component of anger. There's a reason why the laugh of the horrormirth sounds psychotic. It's in reaction to something equally psychotic. But as this sort of thing becomes more and more common, it's better to just laugh it off then being entirely sulky about it. People these days are prone enough to depression as it is, no need to throw the scales further in that direction.

[East Coast Hustle]

So you may think of it as useless optimism, but I do see all the BULLSHIT going on right now as part of an escalatory process, the end result of which will be actual change. So there's a silver lining to all of this.

THIS x 1000.

[Jenne]

I have a child that whines.  A lot.  He cries at the drop of a hat.  My standard response when he gets sniffy and whiney is, "Well, CRY about it, because that ALWAYS solves EVERYTHING."

It's not that I don't want him to cry, EVER.  Just not at little things--because the crying doesn't move him FORWARD.  Or backward.  It keeps him stuck, where he is, and vastly unhappy/angry/whateverjustnotrightinthehead.

Whereas if he channeled that energy into fixing shit himself, something that he'll have to learn to do with hangnails, forgotten homework, dogs that bite, bosses that fire, taxes that go up...see my point?  And laughing is easier, to my mind, to launch off from in a state of crisis, of any sort, than sitting down to a good, long cry.

Which, by the bye, is an appropriate response to things like funerals.  And lost jobs.  And a big shark bite.  Just not all the time, every day, hour after hour.

(also: to wit, look at the biology of laughing vs. crying...)

[The Johnny]

I would say that it is fundamentally wrong to say defense mechanisms of any kind are superficial.  There's really no benefit to saying "well this facet of human experience is wrong, and this one is right."  You may not value your horrormirth, but that's your loss, not ours.

I worded that wrongly, i meant that the joy derived from reaction formation is shallow, not that the mechanism itself is.

I personally think/feel its more realistic and sincere (healthier?) to not have to rely on it.

Erm, who are you to say the joy isn't genuine?
It seems to me seeing everything as funny depends on perspective, not on suppressing one's real emotions.
There is something hilarious about the absurdity in life and in the stupid things people do. I think most of us laughers would agree that's actually a healthier outlook than facing anxiety and depression at every stupid or horrible thing in life. There's nothing "shallow" about it. (Prick.)

80% of Africa is infected with AIDS, its so absurd

LOL

[The Johnny]

from where I'm sitting ---

I laugh because absurdism is the only solace that makes sense to me. The world is getting progressively more fucked every day, and the avenues to fixing it are getting more narrow and hard to access. What the fuck can we do - write to our elected officials and beg them to stop selling out and screwing us? Feels like serfs politely asking the nobles to share the wealth. Ain't gonna happen. Even the legitimate channels for protest, theoretically the forces that are supposed to resist the fucked up stuff in this world, get watered down and dispersed so as to be as ineffective as possible. And it's not like the system is just malfunctioning right now - that's how the system is built.

So what can we do? How can we achieve a decent quality of life in a world which has stolen away our freedoms and resources bit by bit? How can we COPE with the fact that things get grimmer and grimmer every time you turn on the TV? That as individuals, we have no ability to affect the demon machine we create every day just by living our lives and participating in culture?

Absurdism is the best medicine. And Absurdism doesn't mean laughing at tragedy -- but it does mean that you get to pick what your world means, nevermind the class warfare, nevermind the ineffective form of democracy we live in, nevermind that we're red blood cells in an organism which is slowly poisoning itself and dying of obesity.

Wrote a rant about this here:

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=26917.msg949513#msg949513

See, I can get down with that – acknowledging the state of things and attempting to not letting it get you down. Ill go check your rant.

The other component of horrormirth, to me, is something from the Principia.. It's that the season of Aftermath is coming. That's the most hopeful and optimistic thing in the Principia. After a long winter of Bureaucracy, there is Aftermath. Things cannot stay the way they are forever, the universe is too fast and dynamic for anything to stay the same for long. The world we live in will be dismantled and something new will come. And we just have to keep that in our hearts so that when the walls come tumbling down, we have an image to build towards, something new and wonderful.

Aftermath, sweet Aftermath ... if we want to get there, we have to ride the fucker down. Things do have to get worse before they get better. Things like Sarah Palin and the backscatter device and the attempt to destroy Julian Assange... these are catalysts for action, they charge up the forces of Aftermath, the potential energy of real change.

I mean, think about the civil rights movement. The Machine is designed to make sure everybody is happy with their roles. Separate but equal. But people weren't happy with the status quo. But things had to get bad before they woke up and did something about it.

So you may think of it as useless optimism, but I do see all the BULLSHIT going on right now as part of an escalatory process, the end result of which will be actual change. So there's a silver lining to all of this.

It would be really nice, but im not counting on it. I guess that's an important  difference in expectations between us, because maybe for you every horrible thing is equated with a future proximate positive change. Imagine that things don't change for the good, and that our way is, down the drain.

[The Johnny]

What is there not to laugh about? I might feel anger if I believed that it could be different... but I don't. If I thought that somehow THIS government had gone bad while other governments resisted the temptation... maybe I would find it horrormirthy. The truth is government is simply men leading men and all of them are nearly blind. Why be upset? Why be angry? Its only our unrealistic expectations that have failed...

The world is no more fucked now than its ever been... its just fucked in a different position. When is a better time to have lived? The early and mid 20th century, when wars larger than had ever been seen killed millions? When nuclear bombs were introduced and children were taught to hide under their desks as some kind of protection? Or was it less fucked when we believed that the smudgy people were somehow less than us non-smudgy people?

Or maybe the 1800's when Robber Barons controlled all the important stuff, when kids died frequently and adults died young...

Or was it less fucked when Protestants and Catholics were taking turns lopping off each others heads in Europe, while Cotten Mather burned people at the stake for consorting with Demons?

Or perhaps when the world was ruled by inbred Royals and the Pope? When men left their hovels to go kill the infidel? When those who stayed behind raped what was unprotected?

When was the world less fucked?

When were humans less screwed?

Was it better when we believed in the Sky Daddy and a flat earth?

Was it better when we didn't know that we should wash our hands after touching dead stuff?

Maybe back in the day when it was only proteins that were self replicating, perhaps then things were less absurd...

I never mentioned anything related to past times nostalgia, i know all times have blown in different ways.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I would say that it is fundamentally wrong to say defense mechanisms of any kind are superficial.  There's really no benefit to saying "well this facet of human experience is wrong, and this one is right."  You may not value your horrormirth, but that's your loss, not ours.

I worded that wrongly, i meant that the joy derived from reaction formation is shallow, not that the mechanism itself is.

I personally think/feel its more realistic and sincere (healthier?) to not have to rely on it.

Erm, who are you to say the joy isn't genuine?
It seems to me seeing everything as funny depends on perspective, not on suppressing one's real emotions.
There is something hilarious about the absurdity in life and in the stupid things people do. I think most of us laughers would agree that's actually a healthier outlook than facing anxiety and depression at every stupid or horrible thing in life. There's nothing "shallow" about it. (Prick.)

80% of Africa is infected with AIDS, its so absurd

LOL

Or that you're ignoring that AIDS exists at all, let alone in 6 continents. Which is funny.

You're focusing on 80% of Africa, citation needed by the way, whereas you should be focusing on curing the fucking thing. That's where the laughter comes in. Because it doesn't matter who has it, it just needs to be gone.

Not slamming you, just using this as an example.

[The Johnny]

Maybe this has been said already, but I wouldn't know, I only skimmed the rest of the thread, but generally laughter is considered (by some) to be a social reaction acknowledging that an event etc. is inappropriate.

And this world is downright inappropriate.

x

edd

Laughing out of joy or because something is novel or catches you by surprise is fine.

I think laughing about people suffering is not ok.

[The Johnny]

There are a lot of good points here. And I wasn't saying you were promoting apathy. I'm just saying some people are or prefer it, and that's what is unhealthy. Like Phox's acquaintance in the other thread. He's promoting the ignorance is bliss thing, because if you don't care about something you can't get hurt. Stuff sucks so just ignore it. As far as me joking at funerals, it's also a knowledge that the deceased person theoretically cares about the people who came to their funeral, and would be hurt to see them sad. I'm doing a favor for the corpse. And when times suck politically and economically, comics suddenly get funnier routines.

So you believe in life/conscience after death?

[Nephew Twiddleton]

There are a lot of good points here. And I wasn't saying you were promoting apathy. I'm just saying some people are or prefer it, and that's what is unhealthy. Like Phox's acquaintance in the other thread. He's promoting the ignorance is bliss thing, because if you don't care about something you can't get hurt. Stuff sucks so just ignore it. As far as me joking at funerals, it's also a knowledge that the deceased person theoretically cares about the people who came to their funeral, and would be hurt to see them sad. I'm doing a favor for the corpse. And when times suck politically and economically, comics suddenly get funnier routines.

So you believe in life/conscience after death?

Yes. That might put me in a minority here but yes. I also believe that this state is inherently immortal. But even if I didn't believe that it wouldn't change my actions. I would still be carrying out the wishes of someone who couldn't carry them out.

[The Johnny]

I have a child that whines.  A lot.  He cries at the drop of a hat.  My standard response when he gets sniffy and whiney is, "Well, CRY about it, because that ALWAYS solves EVERYTHING."

It's not that I don't want him to cry, EVER.  Just not at little things--because the crying doesn't move him FORWARD.  Or backward.  It keeps him stuck, where he is, and vastly unhappy/angry/whateverjustnotrightinthehead.

Whereas if he channeled that energy into fixing shit himself, something that he'll have to learn to do with hangnails, forgotten homework, dogs that bite, bosses that fire, taxes that go up...see my point? 

I agree up to here.

And laughing is easier, to my mind, to launch off from in a state of crisis, of any sort, than sitting down to a good, long cry.

Which, by the bye, is an appropriate response to things like funerals.  And lost jobs.  And a big shark bite.  Just not all the time, every day, hour after hour.

(also: to wit, look at the biology of laughing vs. crying...)

I think mourning is good to get over something, i think its something that needs to be done to be able to move ahead. If i thought/knew that when someone died i would eventually see them in a happy afterlife, sure, lets celebrate for them, but one would need to come to terms that you wont see them again.

Ill check the biologies you mentioned.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

There are a lot of good points here. And I wasn't saying you were promoting apathy. I'm just saying some people are or prefer it, and that's what is unhealthy. Like Phox's acquaintance in the other thread. He's promoting the ignorance is bliss thing, because if you don't care about something you can't get hurt. Stuff sucks so just ignore it. As far as me joking at funerals, it's also a knowledge that the deceased person theoretically cares about the people who came to their funeral, and would be hurt to see them sad. I'm doing a favor for the corpse. And when times suck politically and economically, comics suddenly get funnier routines.

So you believe in life/conscience after death?

Yes. That might put me in a minority here but yes. I also believe that this state is inherently immortal. But even if I didn't believe that it wouldn't change my actions. I would still be carrying out the wishes of someone who couldn't carry them out.

Also, bear in mind, my choices become more meaningful in a lack of afterlife. If the dead live on in a spiritual realm, they can make the jokes themselves decades later. Whether or not that's possible, I do it at the appropriate moment. People need to laugh in the face of death. I know I fucking do.

ETA: And if the dead do live on, I beat them to the punchline way before they could. Really, it's a win win. And the dead can look on and laugh too.
But don't get me wrong, death is sad. I just think it needs to have a little bit of humor spice to make it palatable.

[Phox]

I think mourning is good to get over something, i think its something that needs to be done to be able to move ahead. If i thought/knew that when someone died i would eventually see them in a happy afterlife, sure, lets celebrate for them, but one would need to come to terms that you wont see them again.

For those of us who do think we will see our friends again, in whatever special Hell is reserved for us, laughing is perfectly apropos. Even if we are wrong, and we don't, then what's the point of crying? Crying won't bring them back. It won't give them an afterlife, and it won't, in the long run, make us feel any better about our own inevitable death. Laughing won't bring them back. Laughing won't give them an afterlife. But if we can laugh at the death of those closest to us, then we can have hope that one day we will be laughing at our own deaths. I know I will be.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I think that for my own funeral I'm going to designate someone to liven the mood for me. I'll have it in written instructions so if anyone takes exception to it they can whip it out and say they're fulfilling my wishes.

[Phox]

I think that for my own funeral I'm going to designate someone to liven the mood for me. I'll have it in written instructions so if anyone takes exception to it they can whip it out and say they're fulfilling my wishes.