Magic: Who thinks they can do it, and why otherwise intelligent people buy it.

[Kai]

If all you have is an appeal to ignorance, then you have no support for your argument.

WE CAN'T KNOW WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET!

Yes, I can't disagree with that. But what does it even tell me? What significance does it have? It's a completely meaningless statement, a naive childish phantasmagoria. It doesn't provide any evidence, simply, something might happen, someday, that's never happened before, but we won't know until it happens. I can't think of any way to falsify that statement.

Guess what? That means that it falls outside the scientific method. It means, that it means nothing. It's, in a word, meaningless.

[Shai Hulud]

Always willing to fuck with someone non-stop, when they DEMAND it.

Thanks, I appreciate it.  I'd like to talk with you, but I just can't walk that fine line between insult comedy and pissing everybody off that talking to you requires.  Haven't got the energy.

That's a damn shame.  You know, I would expect a 5 year old to be able to process that when I say "you don't know me well enough to truncate my name", I meant "you don't know me well enough to truncate my name".  Since you insisted on making it personal after I dropped a 5 ton hint, I am operating under the impression that you want to have a huge, never-ending flame war that will leave a smoking ruin of every thread that you (and thus I) pass through.

Well, sir, let me assure you that when it comes to this sort of thing, I am your man. 

My fault, and I sincerely apologize about truncating your name.  I didn't mean to assume familiarity, just internet shorthand and I won't let it happen again.

[The Johnny]

Im a humanities major, and i think that hard sciences arent "king" in my field.

But oh, when it comes to medicine and technology, i do not wish to, nor i can, argue against it.

One can be objective about numbers and chemicals, but not about meaning and values.

I can give a counter-example.

<--- the awesomeness of this?

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE2l6CPna4M   <---watch all the way through.

Ah, yes, the virtues of long-distance biker love. I cant argue with that.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Im a humanities major, and i think that hard sciences arent "king" in my field.

But oh, when it comes to medicine and technology, i do not wish to, nor i can, argue against it.

One can be objective about numbers and chemicals, but not about meaning and values.

I can give a counter-example.

<--- the awesomeness of this?

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE2l6CPna4M   <---watch all the way through.

Ah, yes, the virtues of long-distance biker love. I cant argue with that.

That mullet is objectively glorious.

[Shai Hulud]

If all you have is an appeal to ignorance, then you have no support for your argument.

WE CAN'T KNOW WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET!

Yes, I can't disagree with that. But what does it even tell me? What significance does it have? It's a completely meaningless statement, a naive childish phantasmagoria. It doesn't provide any evidence, simply, something might happen, someday, that's never happened before, but we won't know until it happens. I can't think of any way to falsify that statement.

But it's not just something that might happen that hasn't happened yet.  It could be happening all around us right now, we just aren't testing for it, or maybe it used to happen all the time and changed.

Guess what? That means that it falls outside the scientific method. It means, that it means nothing. It's, in a word, meaningless.

I think that sums up exactly what I'm getting at.  If the scientific method can't account for it, does that really mean it doesn't exist?  Or just that it falls outside the purview of science. 

You have a funny way of showing it, Guy.  I mean, being as deliberately and personally offensive as possible doesn't usually convey that.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[Kai]

It means that in this physical reality, it is a meaningless hypothesis. Only what our hands can touch, or what our eyes can see at great distance, Guy. If, even indirectly, you have no evidence of anything different...for FUCKS SAKE, its just MASTURBATION. And it's frustrating talking with you, since you are obviously intelligent but unable to grasp how stupid your words sound. Its like asking the question, "Is there a god?" Current company excluded of course. I can't think of any possible way I could ever falsify the existence of an invisible being I can't sense in any way and shows no direct or indirect activity in this universe. If I can't see it, if I can't touch it or taste it or measure it in some way, subjective or objective or WHATEVER, does it even really matter? Its like making up stories of invisible giant neon pink lagomorphs. If it doesn't have any effect on or in the universe, it, for the sake of anything we can ever know, doesn't exist. And thats all I can work with.

[Shai Hulud]

It means that in this physical reality, it is a meaningless hypothesis. Only what our hands can touch, or what our eyes can see at great distance, Guy. If, even indirectly, you have no evidence of anything different...for FUCKS SAKE, its just MASTURBATION. And it's frustrating talking with you, since you are obviously intelligent but unable to grasp how stupid your words sound. Its like asking the question, "Is there a god?" Current company excluded of course. I can't think of any possible way I could ever falsify the existence of an invisible being I can't sense in any way and shows no direct or indirect activity in this universe. If I can't see it, if I can't touch it or taste it or measure it in some way, subjective or objective or WHATEVER, does it even really matter? Its like making up stories of invisible giant neon pink lagomorphs. If it doesn't have any effect on or in the universe, it, for the sake of anything we can ever know, doesn't exist. And thats all I can work with.

Kai, I'm not trying to talk about things with great import.  It's philosophy, I've already copped to that.  Might as well just say it's masturbation, so what?  I'm not trying to say we shouldn't have scientists.  It's just a limitation.  I feel like we're really close to agreeing actually.

[The Johnny]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_unicorn

And i leave you with an image of a spotting of it:

[The Johnny]

Because if we cant test for the existance of something, we should default to assuming that it does.

[Kai]

It means that in this physical reality, it is a meaningless hypothesis. Only what our hands can touch, or what our eyes can see at great distance, Guy. If, even indirectly, you have no evidence of anything different...for FUCKS SAKE, its just MASTURBATION. And it's frustrating talking with you, since you are obviously intelligent but unable to grasp how stupid your words sound. Its like asking the question, "Is there a god?" Current company excluded of course. I can't think of any possible way I could ever falsify the existence of an invisible being I can't sense in any way and shows no direct or indirect activity in this universe. If I can't see it, if I can't touch it or taste it or measure it in some way, subjective or objective or WHATEVER, does it even really matter? Its like making up stories of invisible giant neon pink lagomorphs. If it doesn't have any effect on or in the universe, it, for the sake of anything we can ever know, doesn't exist. And thats all I can work with.

Kai, I'm not trying to talk about things with great import.  It's philosophy, I've already copped to that.  Might as well just say it's masturbation, so what?  I'm not trying to say we shouldn't have scientists.  It's just a limitation.  I feel like we're really close to agreeing actually.

It's not a limitation though, it's a benefit, because it helps to figure out what sorts of hypotheses are actually meaningful and which aren't. It limits...*sigh* it limits the amount of bullshit I have to consider on a daily basis for survival and on up the hierarchy of needs. And I'm okay with that.

[Shai Hulud]

It's not a limitation though, it's a benefit, because it helps to figure out what sorts of hypotheses are actually meaningful and which aren't. It limits...*sigh* it limits the amount of bullshit I have to consider on a daily basis for survival and on up the hierarchy of needs. And I'm okay with that.

I get that, and I'm not disagreeing with you there either.  We need a filter for bullshit.  But there is a time and a place for considering bullshit, like this thread for instance.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It means that in this physical reality, it is a meaningless hypothesis. Only what our hands can touch, or what our eyes can see at great distance, Guy. If, even indirectly, you have no evidence of anything different...for FUCKS SAKE, its just MASTURBATION. And it's frustrating talking with you, since you are obviously intelligent but unable to grasp how stupid your words sound. Its like asking the question, "Is there a god?" Current company excluded of course. I can't think of any possible way I could ever falsify the existence of an invisible being I can't sense in any way and shows no direct or indirect activity in this universe. If I can't see it, if I can't touch it or taste it or measure it in some way, subjective or objective or WHATEVER, does it even really matter? Its like making up stories of invisible giant neon pink lagomorphs. If it doesn't have any effect on or in the universe, it, for the sake of anything we can ever know, doesn't exist. And thats all I can work with.

Kai, I'm not trying to talk about things with great import.  It's philosophy, I've already copped to that.  Might as well just say it's masturbation, so what?  I'm not trying to say we shouldn't have scientists.  It's just a limitation.  I feel like we're really close to agreeing actually.

It's not a limitation though, it's a benefit, because it helps to figure out what sorts of hypotheses are actually meaningful and which aren't. It limits...*sigh* it limits the amount of bullshit I have to consider on a daily basis for survival and on up the hierarchy of needs. And I'm okay with that.

Some of us like bullshit... it makes the flowers grow. We don't need flowers, but they're pretty and smell nice and the Universe is better with Honey.

[The Johnny]

Yes, i dont want to live in a world where love, god and magic dont exist - and if that means i have to make pretend every second of my life, so be it.

[Shai Hulud]

It means that in this physical reality, it is a meaningless hypothesis. Only what our hands can touch, or what our eyes can see at great distance, Guy. If, even indirectly, you have no evidence of anything different...for FUCKS SAKE, its just MASTURBATION. And it's frustrating talking with you, since you are obviously intelligent but unable to grasp how stupid your words sound. Its like asking the question, "Is there a god?" Current company excluded of course. I can't think of any possible way I could ever falsify the existence of an invisible being I can't sense in any way and shows no direct or indirect activity in this universe. If I can't see it, if I can't touch it or taste it or measure it in some way, subjective or objective or WHATEVER, does it even really matter? Its like making up stories of invisible giant neon pink lagomorphs. If it doesn't have any effect on or in the universe, it, for the sake of anything we can ever know, doesn't exist. And thats all I can work with.

Kai, I'm not trying to talk about things with great import.  It's philosophy, I've already copped to that.  Might as well just say it's masturbation, so what?  I'm not trying to say we shouldn't have scientists.  It's just a limitation.  I feel like we're really close to agreeing actually.

It's not a limitation though, it's a benefit, because it helps to figure out what sorts of hypotheses are actually meaningful and which aren't. It limits...*sigh* it limits the amount of bullshit I have to consider on a daily basis for survival and on up the hierarchy of needs. And I'm okay with that.

Some of us like bullshit... it makes the flowers grow. We don't need flowers, but they're pretty and smell nice and the Universe is better with Honey.

Well said,
Rat Bastard!  I think a lot of this argument is me talking across people.  I'm not advocating some sort of downfall of science.  I'm talking about a very small flaw in the best system we've got.  I realize I'm being speculative and somewhat fanciful and maybe that rubs people the wrong way.  But bullshit or not, it's there right?

And Nyx, you're right, but you can't ignore that tiny little flaw in a system and treat it like its perfect.  The difference between 99.9 percent certain and 100 percent certain is only small quantitatively.

[Kai]

It means that in this physical reality, it is a meaningless hypothesis. Only what our hands can touch, or what our eyes can see at great distance, Guy. If, even indirectly, you have no evidence of anything different...for FUCKS SAKE, its just MASTURBATION. And it's frustrating talking with you, since you are obviously intelligent but unable to grasp how stupid your words sound. Its like asking the question, "Is there a god?" Current company excluded of course. I can't think of any possible way I could ever falsify the existence of an invisible being I can't sense in any way and shows no direct or indirect activity in this universe. If I can't see it, if I can't touch it or taste it or measure it in some way, subjective or objective or WHATEVER, does it even really matter? Its like making up stories of invisible giant neon pink lagomorphs. If it doesn't have any effect on or in the universe, it, for the sake of anything we can ever know, doesn't exist. And thats all I can work with.

Kai, I'm not trying to talk about things with great import.  It's philosophy, I've already copped to that.  Might as well just say it's masturbation, so what?  I'm not trying to say we shouldn't have scientists.  It's just a limitation.  I feel like we're really close to agreeing actually.

It's not a limitation though, it's a benefit, because it helps to figure out what sorts of hypotheses are actually meaningful and which aren't. It limits...*sigh* it limits the amount of bullshit I have to consider on a daily basis for survival and on up the hierarchy of needs. And I'm okay with that.

Some of us like bullshit... it makes the flowers grow. We don't need flowers, but they're pretty and smell nice and the Universe is better with Honey.

Some of us get tired of bullshit, it piles too high, blocking roads, polluting waterways, and generally making it difficult to breathe. Plus, myiasis.