Re: Coronavirus data and events as they come in

[The Johnny]

As Oxley, an interventional neurologist, began the procedure to remove the clot, he observed something he had never seen before. On the monitors, the brain typically shows up as a tangle of black squiggles — "like a can of spaghetti," he said — that provide a map of blood vessels. A clot shows up as a blank spot. As he used a needlelike device to pull out the clot, he saw new clots forming in real-time around it.

"This is crazy," he remembers telling his boss.

One month ago, as the country went into lockdown to prepare for the first wave of coronavirus cases, many doctors felt confident that they knew what they were dealing with. Based on early reports, covid-19 appeared to be a standard variety respiratory virus, albeit a very contagious and lethal one with no vaccine and no treatment. But they've since become increasingly convinced that covid-19 attacks not only the lungs, but also the kidneys, heart, intestines, liver and brain.

The clinical shape of the disease, long presumed to be a relatively predictable respiratory infection, is getting less clear by the week. Lately, it seems, by the day. As Carl Zimmer, probably the country's most respected science journalist, asked virologists in a tweet last week, "is there any other virus out there that is this weird in terms of its range of symptoms?"

But for weeks now, front-line doctors have been expressing confusion that so many coronavirus patients were registering lethally low blood-oxygenation levels while still appearing, by almost any vernacular measure, pretty okay.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/we-still-dont-know-how-the-coronavirus-is-killing-us.html?fbclid=IwAR37bpCOh1zitfsNkXRzdLJAsbI6Q5CODGVd1_-2cfuCI97Wjyv7Uj9B6Nk

This motherfucker is by FAR the weirdest, least predictable virus I ever heard of. Some speculation referred to in the article cites EXTREME possible mutation ability. I would not at all be surprised if that proves clinically true after more testing. There ain't gonna be a vaccine "cure". Do not look to it.

All the info is interesting, but I do not follow why you would state that there would be no "vaccine <<cure>>"... like, vaccines dont cure symptoms, they cure causes?

[altered]

Also, we have no current reason to believe nCOV mutates it's surface antigens with any frequency. That's the mutation that reduces the chances of a vaccine, mutation in general does not.

The flu is hard to vaccinate against because it's mutations change the surface antigens, not because of its mutations as a whole.

On the flip side, feline leukemia is caused by a virus that mutates like hell and has 4 co-incident strains that are worth discussing on top of innumerable variants that are functionally identical, but only needs one vaccine for all of them because the virus never changes the surface antigens.

[LMNO]

I've been remaining quiet in this thread, mostly because I'm not well versed in virology and immunology (or, to be fair, any -ology), but I would like to say that reading it is like a rollercoaster of panic followed by varying levels of "calming down", based on whoever posted last.

I'm not saying it's a bad feeling, but it is interesting to observe myself going through it.

[altered]

This is definitely panic worthy. Don't get me wrong.

I've been obsessively interested in viruses for most of my life (a gal's gotta have a hobby) and especially those that affect the blood. Most of the cellular machinery that a virus wants does not exist in red blood cells, they're super strange to see affected as a result.

And it isn't like there isn't a bizarre amount of ways they can affect the blood. Inactivating clotting factors, or hemoglobin, as two examples.

I've never heard of a virus causing clotting. That's entirely novel as far as I know. Certainly novel in coronaviruses, which are (as far as I can find any information) universally respiratory.

That makes this panic worthy. We don't know what it's doing, how it's doing it, or how to treat the symptoms.

Vaccination is nothing to panic over yet, because we have no reason to believe it will even be just a bit more difficult than usual yet.

[The Wizard Joseph]

As Oxley, an interventional neurologist, began the procedure to remove the clot, he observed something he had never seen before. On the monitors, the brain typically shows up as a tangle of black squiggles — "like a can of spaghetti," he said — that provide a map of blood vessels. A clot shows up as a blank spot. As he used a needlelike device to pull out the clot, he saw new clots forming in real-time around it.

"This is crazy," he remembers telling his boss.

One month ago, as the country went into lockdown to prepare for the first wave of coronavirus cases, many doctors felt confident that they knew what they were dealing with. Based on early reports, covid-19 appeared to be a standard variety respiratory virus, albeit a very contagious and lethal one with no vaccine and no treatment. But they've since become increasingly convinced that covid-19 attacks not only the lungs, but also the kidneys, heart, intestines, liver and brain.

The clinical shape of the disease, long presumed to be a relatively predictable respiratory infection, is getting less clear by the week. Lately, it seems, by the day. As Carl Zimmer, probably the country's most respected science journalist, asked virologists in a tweet last week, "is there any other virus out there that is this weird in terms of its range of symptoms?"

But for weeks now, front-line doctors have been expressing confusion that so many coronavirus patients were registering lethally low blood-oxygenation levels while still appearing, by almost any vernacular measure, pretty okay.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/we-still-dont-know-how-the-coronavirus-is-killing-us.html?fbclid=IwAR37bpCOh1zitfsNkXRzdLJAsbI6Q5CODGVd1_-2cfuCI97Wjyv7Uj9B6Nk

This motherfucker is by FAR the weirdest, least predictable virus I ever heard of. Some speculation referred to in the article cites EXTREME possible mutation ability. I would not at all be surprised if that proves clinically true after more testing. There ain't gonna be a vaccine "cure". Do not look to it.

All the info is interesting, but I do not follow why you would state that there would be no "vaccine <<cure>>"... like, vaccines dont cure symptoms, they cure causes?

The reason that there's a "flu shot" and yet flu is incurable is the constant mutation of the virus and the permutations of infection patterns. We understand flu well enough to have yearly vaccines available to help mitigate the spread of the most likely flus during a season, but there is no cure. Flu is endemic to humans. I personally think this fucker is ultimately going the same way, too many mutations to vaccinate for them all individually. The promise of a "cure" through vaccination, or even the "herd immunity" being tossed around, is in my estimation slim. I was not at all talking about symptom treatment.

[Faust]

The flu isn't a fatty virus and we could target multiple strains if we wish it's just the emergent few that get picked up because there are many variants of it.
There aren't of this.
There is no indication or evidence yet of it being mutable to the extent the flu is, there might be in time, but assuming it is isn't basing it on anything

[altered]

Again, surface antigen mutation is the only kind of mutation that affects vaccination. I did write a pretty solid rebuttal of the mutation means no vaccine thing just a tad upthread, after all.

[The Wizard Joseph]

Here's the most recent, seemingly reliable article on the vaccination of coronaviruses as a guideline towards curing the "Covid" virus. it makes NO promises and pulls no punches.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-vaccine/art-20484859

[altered]

It makes no promises because we have no way of knowing yet. We also have no reason to think it will be any more difficult than normal, either.

It could even be the opposite: the S protein simply being the most active of a number of binding sites, all of them changing the most important amino acid sequences every generation. Vaccinating against that is wholly impossible, even on a flu like scale.

The thing is, we have no reason to believe any particular thing about it. It makes sense to assume the standard vaccine option (attenuated viral vaccines) will work, until we have evidence it does not.

One good reason to think it will: the S antigen is shaped like a cone, pointy side out. HIV and influenza surface antigens are shaped like mushrooms, or balls on sticks. We can't reach the stick part to create antibodies for it, so we have to focus on the balls, which are far more mutable.

A tapered spike, by comparison, has nowhere to hide the good stuff. We can reach almost the whole spike, it has a lot of surface area, and the chances of it changing the entire protein sequence of something that large is so small it can be safely dismissed. Even if the tip mutates, the larger cone is unlikely to do so, and antibodies can be produced against the sides of the cone.

[The Wizard Joseph]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_EbCfEwO4o&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR0RYMCs4c2v8uGUpq6TlrHo7HzhIjSX155lf1UE3nKRX5fDg3_Qo6XALpM

[Cramulus]

Finally, some good news!

"The data shows that remdesivir has a clear-cut, significant, positive effect in diminishing the time to recovery," Fauci said at the White House on Wednesday. The data he referred to is from a large study of more than 1,000 patients from multiple sites around the world. Patients either received the drug, called remdesivir, or a placebo.

Results from clinical trials are typically published in medical journals after review from outside experts. That hasn't happened yet with this latest study, but Fauci said that the results were so promising, there is "an ethical obligation to immediately let the placebo group know so they can have access" to the drug.

Fauci said the remdesivir study group was able to be discharged from the hospital within 11 days, on average, compared to 15 days in the placebo group.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/coronavirus-drug-remdesivir-shows-promise-large-trial-n1195171


Decreasing the amount of time a given patient needs to be in the hospital could have a big impact on ICU capacity, which will be a key factor in ending lock-downs.

[Cain]

That could be a very significant advantage.

[Juana]

Indeed! That's excellent news.

[The Wizard Joseph]

Fuck I'll take it! Any edge is great at this point.

[Cramulus]

you know how the Branch Covidians are going "the death count is fake, any time somebody dies of anything, they count it as a covid death" ?


Sears is probably gonna go belly-up. But Sears was dying before covid, so clearly this is fake news and the economy is OK. They're just blaming this on covid to be sensational. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/business/j-crew-bankruptcy-jcpenney-sears-neiman-marcus-retailers-coronavirus/index.html