Author Topic: e-prime sucks and so do you.  (Read 17213 times)

Slarti

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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2007, 06:23:27 pm »
It should not read like, "It seems as though 5 individuals may have possibly been randomly chosen to recieve treatment, which from my subjective opinion may have been matched with control individuals with what looked like to me to be about the same weight and conditions", or " From what was subjectively assumed, 42.3% looked like they grew over half an inch over 3 days, from my reconing."

from what i understand of e-prime, it wasn't meant to be taken to that extreme. If you pick 5 people for an experiment, for all intents and purposes you have to assume that it's an objective truth. You're stretching its use.  At its core, e-prime is english without the word 'to be'

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5 individuals were randomly chosen to recieve treatment, matched with 5 control individuals with weight and condition within one unit of each other

The e-prime equivalent of that could be "We randomly selected 5 individuals to recieve treatment, and matched them with 5 control individuals with measured weight and condition within one unit of each other" or something to that effect.

I don't know much about the etiquitte of writing scientific papers, although i remember my physics teacher in high school telling me to refrain from saying "we did this... we did that" in lab reports. not sure if this holds true as a general rule of thumb in the real scientific community as well, but i'm sure if it does there is another acceptable translation of that sentence into e-prime that would work.

Either way, i speak in e-prime when i know i'm talking about a subjective topic... Music, Books, TV, personal interests, opinions, talking about another person's mood, etc. I don't do it consciously, it just seems to have developed as a habit over the past few years. I don't use it to say "I'm going to the store" because that would be ridiculous.

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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2007, 06:32:14 pm »
Either way, i speak in e-prime when i know i'm talking about a subjective topic... Music, Books, TV, personal interests, opinions, talking about another person's mood, etc. I don't do it consciously, it just seems to have developed as a habit over the past few years. I don't use it to say "I'm going to the store" because that would be ridiculous.

Oh come on now, Slarti, you expect us to be able to figure out that e' is useful sometimes and not useful sometimes? How are all of the anti-e' folks gonna prove that e' sucks unless they can take it to idiotic extremes that only a dogmatic fool would consider valid?

I mean, its not like we have some sort of brain or anything that might help us figure out when its useful and when its not. We're supposed to either use it ALL OF THE TIME, or NEVER. That's the only rational answer, obviously.

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B_M_W

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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2007, 06:48:23 pm »
It should not read like, "It seems as though 5 individuals may have possibly been randomly chosen to recieve treatment, which from my subjective opinion may have been matched with control individuals with what looked like to me to be about the same weight and conditions", or " From what was subjectively assumed, 42.3% looked like they grew over half an inch over 3 days, from my reconing."

from what i understand of e-prime, it wasn't meant to be taken to that extreme. If you pick 5 people for an experiment, for all intents and purposes you have to assume that it's an objective truth. You're stretching its use.  At its core, e-prime is english without the word 'to be'

Quote
5 individuals were randomly chosen to recieve treatment, matched with 5 control individuals with weight and condition within one unit of each other

The e-prime equivalent of that could be "We randomly selected 5 individuals to recieve treatment, and matched them with 5 control individuals with measured weight and condition within one unit of each other" or something to that effect.

I don't know much about the etiquitte of writing scientific papers, although i remember my physics teacher in high school telling me to refrain from saying "we did this... we did that" in lab reports. not sure if this holds true as a general rule of thumb in the real scientific community as well, but i'm sure if it does there is another acceptable translation of that sentence into e-prime that would work.

Either way, i speak in e-prime when i know i'm talking about a subjective topic... Music, Books, TV, personal interests, opinions, talking about another person's mood, etc. I don't do it consciously, it just seems to have developed as a habit over the past few years. I don't use it to say "I'm going to the store" because that would be ridiculous.

However, in a scientific paper you are attempting to support conclusions with evidence that is taken as actually happened. In that case, you do not want to seem like you are unsure of your results as you are reporting them, which would make the conclusions seem more shaky and less valid or useful. Direct reporting of results has no room for e'.
One by one, we break the sheep from their Iron Bar Prisons and expand their imaginations, make them think for themselves. In turn, they break more from their prisons. Eventually, critical mass is reached. Our key word: Resolve. Evangelize with compassion and determination. And realize that there will be few in the beginning. We are hand picking our successors. They are the future of Discordianism. Let us guide our future with intelligence.

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Slarti

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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2007, 07:05:37 pm »
Okay, i can agree with you on that point. I just didn't agree with the example you used because it was taking things to an extreme. I just find E-Prime to be a helpful way for me to remind myself that "the map is not the territory". As a side note, it's funny that that Korzybski said that, and that RAW liked that quote so much, even though it's obviously not spoke in e-prime...

I think Korzybski wanted E-prime to be used in science because it could serve as a reminder that all the results one got from scientific research were based on the tools and equipment and models used to gain the results, and i don't believe he was too worried about people appearing unsure in their conclusions because he WANTED people to be unsure, to doubt their models, to constantly question their reality grids, etc.

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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2007, 07:07:20 pm »

However, in a scientific paper you are attempting to support conclusions with evidence that is taken as actually happened. In that case, you do not want to seem like you are unsure of your results as you are reporting them, which would make the conclusions seem more shaky and less valid or useful. Direct reporting of results has no room for e'.

That's likely true, particularly if you're looking for funding. Our society tends toward the Aristotelean view of the Universe and they don't tend to like fuzzy logic. After all, who'd pay the Doctor or listen to any Scientist, if they admitted that they only have a "pretty good idea" of what's going on, rather than knowing the Truth.
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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2007, 07:11:05 pm »

However, in a scientific paper you are attempting to support conclusions with evidence that is taken as actually happened. In that case, you do not want to seem like you are unsure of your results as you are reporting them, which would make the conclusions seem more shaky and less valid or useful. Direct reporting of results has no room for e'.

That's likely true, particularly if you're looking for funding. Our society tends toward the Aristotelean view of the Universe and they don't tend to like fuzzy logic. After all, who'd pay the Doctor or listen to any Scientist, if they admitted that they only have a "pretty good idea" of what's going on, rather than knowing the Truth.

No doubt, there ARE some shady dealings that go on with Research Funding, in both the Physical and Social Sciences.  However, a lot of it is legit and with their interest being in the greater good.  And in those instances they want to make sure their money is going towards something that will have concrete results. 
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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2007, 07:32:51 pm »
I think Korzybski wanted E-prime to be used in science because it could serve as a reminder that all the results one got from scientific research were based on the tools and equipment and models used to gain the results, and i don't believe he was too worried about people appearing unsure in their conclusions because he WANTED people to be unsure, to doubt their models, to constantly question their reality grids, etc.

i dunno

science has its own methods to accomplish those things. the scientific method. falsifiability. it works pretty well.

you don't wanna do that in a real person-to-person discussion

and that is where e-prime comes seems to come in in very handy, sometimes.
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Slarti

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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2007, 07:42:09 pm »
Yeah i mean i'm not saying i agree with it, just from what i've read of korzybski and e-prime and general semantics, it seems like that was his goal. I agree with you, i only use e-prime in person to person discussion...

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2007, 08:01:15 pm »

However, in a scientific paper you are attempting to support conclusions with evidence that is taken as actually happened. In that case, you do not want to seem like you are unsure of your results as you are reporting them, which would make the conclusions seem more shaky and less valid or useful. Direct reporting of results has no room for e'.

That's likely true, particularly if you're looking for funding. Our society tends toward the Aristotelean view of the Universe and they don't tend to like fuzzy logic. After all, who'd pay the Doctor or listen to any Scientist, if they admitted that they only have a "pretty good idea" of what's going on, rather than knowing the Truth.

No doubt, there ARE some shady dealings that go on with Research Funding, in both the Physical and Social Sciences.  However, a lot of it is legit and with their interest being in the greater good.  And in those instances they want to make sure their money is going towards something that will have concrete results. 

Sure, however... the results are equally concrete no matter the language used. E' simply admits that there's a limit to the concrete-ness of the information. People aren't programmed to accept that basic fact and thus would see something written inE' as a non-concrete.

However, as I've said a number of times. E' is useful in some situations and not useful in others. In the realm of Philosophy, religion and theoretical studies it might make more sense, particularly in debate (as opposed to a report on observations).
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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2007, 10:13:19 pm »

However, in a scientific paper you are attempting to support conclusions with evidence that is taken as actually happened. In that case, you do not want to seem like you are unsure of your results as you are reporting them, which would make the conclusions seem more shaky and less valid or useful. Direct reporting of results has no room for e'.

That's likely true, particularly if you're looking for funding. Our society tends toward the Aristotelean view of the Universe and they don't tend to like fuzzy logic. After all, who'd pay the Doctor or listen to any Scientist, if they admitted that they only have a "pretty good idea" of what's going on, rather than knowing the Truth.

No doubt, there ARE some shady dealings that go on with Research Funding, in both the Physical and Social Sciences.  However, a lot of it is legit and with their interest being in the greater good.  And in those instances they want to make sure their money is going towards something that will have concrete results. 

It doesn't matter if you have strong results or weak results. You simply report the results, with as little subjectivity as possible. Because subjectivity means inprecise data, and unrepeatability of experimentation. e' prime gets in the way.

If you want to use e' in the conclusion section, thats up to you, but generally its not used there either. Or in methods, or the introduction. Its part of the whole standard formality of a scientific paper to remove subjectivity as much ass possible.
One by one, we break the sheep from their Iron Bar Prisons and expand their imaginations, make them think for themselves. In turn, they break more from their prisons. Eventually, critical mass is reached. Our key word: Resolve. Evangelize with compassion and determination. And realize that there will be few in the beginning. We are hand picking our successors. They are the future of Discordianism. Let us guide our future with intelligence.

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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2007, 09:02:11 pm »
But at the same time, you have to be firm in your research, you can't just say, well we think this is what's going on but we could be wrong.  No one wants to fund that shit. 

which may be the ultimate problem in and of itself

we are witnessing the end of a legacy that has tried to accomplish that which is impossible


namely - control

this is a fine example
neat hell

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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2007, 09:54:04 pm »
wtf is it with e-prime?

is it really supposed to enhance the accuracy and precision of your speech/writing? no, that is a lie. it is not supposed to enhance anything. it's just politically-correct "make sure you don't offend anybody" bullshit.

fuck that. if your opinion sucks, i'll say so. if you don't like it, then tell me my opinion sucks.

you'll be wrong but you'll feel better.

why should i waste half of my effort in saying something just to make sure you understand that i'm only expressing an opinion?  if you can't tell it's only an opinion, then you either fail at communication or need to do more homework.

people these days make a career out of being offended by anything. e-prime just adds another layer of bullshit to every argument. now you can avoid the subject completely by saying "yeah but you didn't say IMHO."  it's a whole world of the kind of shit lawyers and theologians (the two biggest reasons for societal decay) love to debate, i.e. useless crap about what you REALLY mean when what you say is plain as day.

What the fuck is E Prime?
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Thurnez Isa

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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2007, 11:18:46 pm »
I don't fully understand it myself
but it is the elimation of the verb "to be"
with the result of eliminating the passive voice, or in other words where your subject is the target of the action
ie...  My dog is hurt
subject.. action

in E prime the words that mean "to Be" - as in my example "is" - are eliminated
so my example becomes
My dog has become hurt

my problem with it, other then fact I dont fully understand it, is that your letting semantics become more important then the message (which is the way of dawning 21'st Century... really)
it also makes description of the abstract generally impossible
Quote
e.g. a student is more likely to be described in E-Prime as "She attends classes at the university".

http://learn-gs.org/library/etc/49-2-french.pdf
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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2007, 11:23:12 pm »
I don't fully understand it myself
but it is the elimation of the verb "to be"
with the result of eliminating the passive voice, or in other words where your subject is the target of the action
ie...  My dog is hurt
subject.. action

in E prime the words that mean "to Be" - as in my example "is" - are eliminated
so my example becomes
My dog has become hurt

my problem with it, other then fact I dont fully understand it, is that your letting semantics become more important then the message (which is the way of dawning 21'st Century... really)
it also makes description of the abstract generally impossible
Quote
e.g. a student is more likely to be described in E-Prime as "She attends classes at the university".

http://learn-gs.org/library/etc/49-2-french.pdf

This is fucking retarded.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
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Re: e-prime sucks and so do you.
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2007, 11:29:52 pm »
I thought e-prime was illustrative?  Kind of like the Law of Fives, this is an example of how the brain can be fooled by semantics etc...I didn't know people actually did it, all the time.