The BIP is not a Discordian work: discuss

[AFK]

i didn't say that the BIP was, i was replying to a comment a few above mine about if i think things that stir discord are discordian. some of you people are awfully bad at paying attention to be so pedantic

There is this thing called the quote function. 

[LMNO]

Oh, so you don't like it because it's poorly written?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry right now.

Do both; we do.

[AFK]

If you rewrote the BIP as well as a Douglas Adams work, I absolutely would not have a problem.

Similarly, if I finished the BIP and I wanted to kill myself the way I did after reading some of Phillip K. Dick's works for the first time, I would absolutely have no problem.

One of the points I made in my first post to this thread was that it's not either of those things.  It's neither hot nor cold.

So in other words, you suck at follow through.  

[LMNO]

How come no one ever wants to discuss the ideas?


This reminds me of this guy in my classics class who complained that the Iliad was sexist.

[AFK]

Shooting the messengers is so much more fun apparently. 

[Arafelis]

So in other words, you suck at follow through.  

I'm getting such a tl;dr vibe to what I write, here.

I don't suck at follow-through, you suck at reading.

A point I'll continue to defend even after the inevitable objection is raised that I never actually said "this sucks," merely that "it was trite," "it alienates the reader rather than drawing them in," and "is the literary equivalent of Good Charlotte."

How come no one ever wants to discuss the ideas?

Which ideas are those, huh?  The Plato's Cave allegory, or the part where Somebody Should Do Something About It?

[Cain]

How come no one ever wants to discuss the ideas?


This reminds me of this guy in my classics class who complained that the Iliad was sexist.

Arson, murder and jaywalking.

[Cain]

How come no one ever wants to discuss the ideas?


This reminds me of this guy in my classics class who complained that the Iliad was sexist.

Arson, murder and jaywalking.

By which I mean, if you are going to complain about the socio-political content of the Iliad you might want to start with the aggressive war waged for profit by the Greeks.  All the looting and taking slaves and women and stuff.  That Achilles thought Patroclus was more worthy of fucking than a Greek woman is way down on the list of priorities.

[fomenter]

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

For the most part, no one seems to be arguing about the mechanics of the BIP - after all, it's just a version of "reality grids".

Well, yes... indeed it is.

The notable exception being Rat, which led to the GSP, and then his weird "rollercoaster/submarine" metaphor.

I don't remember any rollercoasters... why do people say Rat's rollercoasters?

Though I like Rat's Rollercoaster... that may have to be some new piece!!!

Most people seem to dislike the "tone" or "attitude" of the BIP, which makes me think that if we wrote it in a Douglas Adams/Terry Pratchett style, then no one would have a problem.

I still contend that it needn't have been humorously absurd, only that it should have taken itself less seriously. Absurd humor can go a long way to meet that goal, but its not the only way to display some humility of thought. I think some few Discordians that have not liked the BiP are looking only for the LOLs, but I think a larger number of them are being repelled by the self-import vibe that the work gives off the first or second time through. That vibe lessens, at least for me, around the fifth time through.  

However, I agree with the idea of the BiP as a finished work and I think continual revisions of the base document weaken it. Implementing bits of it in new projects, referencing stuff from it in new projects etc can keep it alive and functioning, without losing the original. (Recall, it was only recently that the First Ed. PD saw the light of day again after decades of being lost). I don't say this because I think its flawless or that defending it as a Discordian Work is a good investment of time. Personally, I think that when some new-to-the-BiP Discordian hops in here and says "The BiP is FAIL for the following reasons" a response like "The BiP is X years old... what the fuck are you doing back there... Catch Up. *HERE IS LINK TO CURRENT PROJECTS*."

The BiP, in my opinion, has flaws. It screams at the reader at some points, it takes itself more seriously that the material warrants and I think it presents a flawed metaphor. HOWEVER, IT IS A GREAT PIECE OF WORK WHICH REPRESENTS SOME IDEAS OF SOME DISCORDIANS AT SOME POINT IN TIME.

And that last line is what's important. I think. The rest of it can be argued from Sea to Subjective Sea and we'll never get an agreeable answer  

[Arafelis]

However, I agree with the idea of the BiP as a finished work and I think continual revisions of the base document weaken it.

I liked the pages TSosBR! posted for his revision.  I don't think they're perfect, but I absolutely wouldn't call them a weakening of the base document.  He addressed the presentation from a completely different angle than how I would have done it (his is graphic; I would go literary).  But it works for the same reason a (lyrical) song can be a beautiful piece of art and have lyrics that, on white paper, don't even merit as third-grade poetry.

HOWEVER, IT IS A GREAT AN IMPORTANT PIECE OF WORK WHICH REPRESENTS SOME IDEAS OF SOME DISCORDIANS AT SOME POINT IN TIME.

Yes.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

One of the problem with constant revisions, over the years, of a non-technical piece of writing is that the authors change over the years, and if you continue to revise a piece you lose what it was when you wrote it. You will have a new piece that reflects where you are now, but you lose what you had when you were where you were then. Frankly, I think it's valuable to keep the old work, as much as it is to write new work.

[Cramulus]

Most people seem to dislike the "tone" or "attitude" of the BIP, which makes me think that if we wrote it in a Douglas Adams/Terry Pratchett style, then no one would have a problem.

Which is fucking retarded.

see, I think the medium is the message. Discussions about a meme's packaging are critical to the lifecycle of that meme. Whether we write a new BIP or not, understanding people's reaction to it is helpful for future projects.

Clearly a BIP document written in a more "zany" tone would catch different flies than our vinegar version. That style of writing isn't common here at PD, and I'm not saying that it should be -- but hey, two discordians in two weeks have told us our work isn't funny enough. Agree or not, but I do think that merits further discussion than a flat dismissal and a GTFO.



I dunno, I just think that in some ways we're shooting ourselves in the foot by getting into fights with everyone that doesn't like the BIP. Personally, I rely on feedback, specifically negative feedback, to get a more objective angle on my writing.


For clarity: I want to contrast the legit detailed feedback that Arefalis (bravely) provided with the totally pointless "Is it Discordian or not?" discussion, which is probably a dead end red herring.

One of the problem with constant revisions, over the years, of a non-technical piece of writing is that the authors change over the years, and if you continue to revise a piece you lose what it was when you wrote it. You will have a new piece that reflects where you are now, but you lose what you had when you were where you were then. Frankly, I think it's valuable to keep the old work, as much as it is to write new work.

Luckily, the old pdfs still exist

nothing lost at all 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Most people seem to dislike the "tone" or "attitude" of the BIP, which makes me think that if we wrote it in a Douglas Adams/Terry Pratchett style, then no one would have a problem.

Which is fucking retarded.

see, I think the medium is the message. Discussions about a meme's packaging are critical to the lifecycle of that meme. Whether we write a new BIP or not, understanding people's reaction to it is helpful for future projects.

Clearly a BIP document written in a more "zany" tone would catch different flies than our vinegar version. That style of writing isn't common here at PD, and I'm not saying that it should be -- but hey, two discordians in two weeks have told us our work isn't funny enough. Agree or not, but I do think that merits further discussion than a flat dismissal and a GTFO.



I dunno, I just think that in some ways we're shooting ourselves in the foot by getting into fights with everyone that doesn't like the BIP. Personally, I rely on feedback, specifically negative feedback, to get a more objective angle on my writing.


For clarity: I want to contrast the legit detailed feedback that Arefalis (bravely) provided with the totally pointless "Is it Discordian or not?" discussion, which is probably a dead end red herring.

One of the problem with constant revisions, over the years, of a non-technical piece of writing is that the authors change over the years, and if you continue to revise a piece you lose what it was when you wrote it. You will have a new piece that reflects where you are now, but you lose what you had when you were where you were then. Frankly, I think it's valuable to keep the old work, as much as it is to write new work.

Luckily, the old pdfs still exist

nothing lost at all 

Well said Cramulus!