A discordian take on this please...

[Telarus]

The ouster of Queen Liliokalani was one of the most fucked up things that American business men have done with the de-facto support of the US government.

Also, in reference to the WWII discussion, there was a sect of Soto Zen Buddhists that actively helped spread the Sun Emperor's nationalistic propaganda (yes, even Buddhists have their assholes).

http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/zenholy.htm

Most western Buddhists will find this account heart- and mind-boggling. Enlightened Zen Masters supporting war contradicts everything we know about the Buddha's teaching. After World War II, the Japanese Zen tradition, like the nation itself, went into a collective amnesia regarding its complicity in the war. So over 50 years of Buddhist history have been hidden from outsiders and the Japanese themselves. They are just beginning to confront what happened.
...
First a little history. Buddhism became the state religion of Japan during the Tokugawa era (1600-1868). Nearly half a million temples were built. The Buddhist priesthood became an extension of the feudal government. Every household had to be affiliated with a local temple. With such wealth and power came enormous liability. By the time the Meiji era began in 1868, there was growing popular huge resentment against Buddhism. A nationwide movement began to cleanse Japan of this "foreign religion" and to reinstate Shinto as the only true Japanese tradition. Thousands of temples were closed, statues destroyed and priests forcibly returned to lay life. The only way institutional Buddhism could survive was to become part of the new imperial system.

According to Victoria, under the Shinto banner, the emperor was worshipped as a living god -- "the selfless wisdom of the universe." Imperial law and the Dharma were seen as identical -- "Imperial-way Zen" as opposed to the "Buddha-way Zen." Basically, the emperor replaced the Buddha, the Japanese spirit and loyalty replaced the Dharma, and the nation replaced the Sangha. Zen teachings were adapted to conform to the new tradition. A famous "Zen soldier" wrote, "Seeking nothing at all, you should simply completely discard both body and mind, and unite with the emperor."
...
Victoria pinpoints Shaku Soen (1859-1919) as one of the first Zen Masters to enthusiastically embrace war as Zen training. Well-known as D. T. Suzuki's teacher, Soen is revered in the history of Buddhism in the West as the first Zen teacher to visit the United States. In the war against Russia, Soen served as a chaplain in 1904. "I wished to inspire," Soen later wrote, "our valiant soldiers with the ennobling thoughts of the Buddha, so as to enable them to die on the battlefield with confidence that the task in which they are engaged is great and noble. I wish to convince them.... that this war is not a mere slaughter of their fellow-beings, but that they are combating an evil."

From Soen's point of view, since everything was one essence, war and peace were identical. Everything reflected the glory of Buddha, including war. And since the Buddha's main purpose was to subjugate evil, and since the enemy of Japan was inherently evil, war against evil was the essence of Buddhism. "In the present hostilities," Soen wrote, "into which Japan has entered with great reluctance, she pursues no egotistic purpose, but seeks the subjugation of evils hostile to civilization, peace and enlightenment." (Japan's invasion of Russia was entirely self-serving and hardly reluctant.). To Soen, war was " an inevitable step toward the final realization of enlightenment."

Soen used the phrases "just war" and "holy war." Japan was engaged in a "war of compassion" fought by bodhisattva soldiers against the enemies of Buddha. As Rinzai Zen Master Nantembo (1839 - 1925) preached, there was "no bodhisattva practice superior to the compassionate taking of life." (Soen considered any opposition to war as "a product of egotism.") Reading these words now, they seem clear examples of disturbed religious thinking. Buddhist teachings, language and symbols, like any religion, can be perverted and twisted to support nationalism and violence. It is important to note that Soen is not some fringe crackpot. He is still almost worshipped in Japan as one of the great "fully enlightened" Zen Masters of our time.
...
Victoria identifies Sawaki Kodo (1880-1965), one of the great Soto Zen patriarchs of this century, as an evangelical war proponent. Serving in Russia as a soldier, he happily related how he and his comrades had "gorged ourselves on killing people." Later, in 1942, he wrote, "It is just to punish those who disturb the public order. Whether one kills or does not kill, the precept forbidding killing [is preserved]. It is the precept forbidding killing that wields the sword. It is the precept that throws the bomb."

The "precept throws the bomb?" This is an astonishing abuse of Zen language. Kodo also advocated, as did other Zen teachers, that if killing is done without thinking, in a state of no-mind or no-self, then the act is a expression of enlightenment. No thinking = No-mind = No-self = No karma. In this bizarre equation, the victims are always left out, as if they are irrelevant. Killing is just an elegant expression of the koan. When Colonel Aizawa Saburo was being tried for murdering another general in 1935, he testified, "I was in an absolute sphere, so there was neither affirmation nor negation, neither good nor evil." This approach to Zen is ultimately a perverse narcissism or even nihilism. Of course, the obvious question that was never asked -- if there is no self, why is there any need to kill?

Victoria has brought to light the actual words of these leaders and the written record of this period. Zen at War contains dozens of similar passages from leading teachers, proving that this distortion was the rule, not the exception. There were some pacifists, but they were few. Some priests who opposed the war may have quietly retired to distant country temples, but they probably left no record.

[Doktor Howl]

The ouster of Queen Liliokalani was one of the most fucked up things that American business men have done with the de-facto support of the US government.

I believe you meant "OVERT SUPPORT".  And no, we've done lots worse.  Google "the Phillipine-American War".

[Telarus]

That was quite interesting, I hadn't known all of the double dealing which started that conflict.

Speaking of fucked up, in 1874, just prior to the Hawaiian 'Bayonet Constitution', any naturalized Hawaiian citizen had the right to vote and the current monarch, Lunalilo, had actually done away with the 'minimum wealth requirements' that had previously denied the poor Native and non-Native Hawaiian the right to vote.

The rules under the Bayonet Constitution (which was such a slimy piece of manipulation that even grade schools in Hawaii can't explain it to their classes) now allowed foreign resident aliens to vote, not just naturalized citizens. Asians, including subjects who previously enjoyed the right to vote, were specifically denied suffrage. Only Hawaiian, American, and European males were granted full voting rights if they met the new economic and literacy thresholds.

America! Fuck-Yea!

Seems like we've been fucking this up for a good century (at least) before we tried "exporting democracy to Iraq and Afganistan".

[Doktor Howl]

That was quite interesting, I hadn't known all of the double dealing which started that conflict.

Speaking of fucked up, in 1874, just prior to the Hawaiian 'Bayonet Constitution', any naturalized Hawaiian citizen had the right to vote and the current monarch, Lunalilo, had actually done away with the 'minimum wealth requirements' that had previously denied the poor Native and non-Native Hawaiian the right to vote.

The rules under the Bayonet Constitution (which was such a slimy piece of manipulation that even grade schools in Hawaii can't explain it to their classes) now allowed foreign resident aliens to vote, not just naturalized citizens. Asians, including subjects who previously enjoyed the right to vote, were specifically denied suffrage. Only Hawaiian, American, and European males were granted full voting rights if they met the new economic and literacy thresholds.

America! Fuck-Yea!

Seems like we've been fucking this up for a good century (at least) before we tried "exporting democracy to Iraq and Afganistan".

Um, yeah.

Google United Fruit Company foreign policy USA.

United Fruit still exists, as DelMonte.

[Adios]

The ouster of Queen Liliokalani was one of the most fucked up things that American business men have done with the de-facto support of the US government.

I believe you meant "OVERT SUPPORT".  And no, we've done lots worse.  Google "the Phillipine-American War".

Can't I just blame a 200 year old nation for every bad thing since 1400? I do prefer shortcuts, after all.

[Phox]

Well, this exploded.

I think LT needs to weigh in on this. He surely knows more about Japanese civ than he knows about 9/11 and applied physics.

[BadBeast]

The ouster of Queen Liliokalani was one of the most fucked up things that American business men have done with the de-facto support of the US government.

I believe you meant "OVERT SUPPORT".  And no, we've done lots worse.  Google "the Phillipine-American War".

Can't I just blame a 200 year old nation for every bad thing since 1400? I do prefer shortcuts, after all.

Please, feel free to blame who ever you want. Some of it's bound to stick.

[Cain]

But they still made us look like a pack of unwashed mannerless barbarians. (But we sure showed them just how "cultured" we were in WWII)

Sure, if you were a male noble.  For everyone else, it sucked balls.

Troof.

The Heian period, which is considered to be the Golden Age of Japanese culture that produced such things as the world's first novel (The Tale of Genji), was perhaps one of the most refined and aesthetic-based societies to have existed. Everything, from the seasonal flowers one was supposed to attach to ones letters to the carefully layered colors of a court-lady's voluminous attire were given the most thorough scrutiny. Beauty was equated with virtue, which is reflected in the word for aristocracy, "yokibito", literally "the good people".
Of course he nobility made up a fraction of 1% of the population. Those who didn't serve as provincial governers lived in one palace complex in one city. It was a highly cultivated and insular society.

The peasantry, however, lived in loathesome huts and ate fern roots and the seeds of wild grasses to survive. Plagues and fires and earthquakes ravaged the capital, and the life expectancy was about 30 years.

That sounds like civilization to me. Strict hierarchies and highly formalized, rigidly enforced codes of behavior?

Yup. Civilization.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. 

Anyway, I think the Japanese have produced many  unique and beautiful things. They have also, as a society, both experienced and perpetuated a terrible lot of suffering. So, they're like everyone else in that respect.

It's sort of difficult to reconcile a society's cultural achievements with its human rights record.

I was going to say here "except New Zealand", but then I realized you said "cultural achievements".

Also, where the fuck is Paisor?

[Cain]

That was quite interesting, I hadn't known all of the double dealing which started that conflict.

Speaking of fucked up, in 1874, just prior to the Hawaiian 'Bayonet Constitution', any naturalized Hawaiian citizen had the right to vote and the current monarch, Lunalilo, had actually done away with the 'minimum wealth requirements' that had previously denied the poor Native and non-Native Hawaiian the right to vote.

The rules under the Bayonet Constitution (which was such a slimy piece of manipulation that even grade schools in Hawaii can't explain it to their classes) now allowed foreign resident aliens to vote, not just naturalized citizens. Asians, including subjects who previously enjoyed the right to vote, were specifically denied suffrage. Only Hawaiian, American, and European males were granted full voting rights if they met the new economic and literacy thresholds.

America! Fuck-Yea!

Seems like we've been fucking this up for a good century (at least) before we tried "exporting democracy to Iraq and Afganistan".

Um, yeah.

Google United Fruit Company foreign policy USA.

United Fruit still exists, as DelMonte.

Brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "the man from DelMonte, he say yes", doesn't it?

[Doktor Howl]

The ouster of Queen Liliokalani was one of the most fucked up things that American business men have done with the de-facto support of the US government.

I believe you meant "OVERT SUPPORT".  And no, we've done lots worse.  Google "the Phillipine-American War".

Can't I just blame a 200 year old nation for every bad thing since 1400? I do prefer shortcuts, after all.

Nope.  But you can blame it for shit it really did do.

[Adios]

The ouster of Queen Liliokalani was one of the most fucked up things that American business men have done with the de-facto support of the US government.

I believe you meant "OVERT SUPPORT".  And no, we've done lots worse.  Google "the Phillipine-American War".

Can't I just blame a 200 year old nation for every bad thing since 1400? I do prefer shortcuts, after all.

Nope.  But you can blame it for shit it really did do.

I will, even after it becomes illegal to talk about those things.

[Doktor Howl]

That was quite interesting, I hadn't known all of the double dealing which started that conflict.

Speaking of fucked up, in 1874, just prior to the Hawaiian 'Bayonet Constitution', any naturalized Hawaiian citizen had the right to vote and the current monarch, Lunalilo, had actually done away with the 'minimum wealth requirements' that had previously denied the poor Native and non-Native Hawaiian the right to vote.

The rules under the Bayonet Constitution (which was such a slimy piece of manipulation that even grade schools in Hawaii can't explain it to their classes) now allowed foreign resident aliens to vote, not just naturalized citizens. Asians, including subjects who previously enjoyed the right to vote, were specifically denied suffrage. Only Hawaiian, American, and European males were granted full voting rights if they met the new economic and literacy thresholds.

America! Fuck-Yea!

Seems like we've been fucking this up for a good century (at least) before we tried "exporting democracy to Iraq and Afganistan".

Um, yeah.

Google United Fruit Company foreign policy USA.

United Fruit still exists, as DelMonte.

Brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "the man from DelMonte, he say yes", doesn't it?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

What happened to the conspiracy that we knew Pearl was going to be attacked and let it happen so American citizens wouldn't bitch about going to war with Japan?

Funny thing is there was two chances to not have it be suprise buttsex, first one when we broke their code but didn't do anything except remove VIPs because we didn't want them to know we broke it. Second one was when Japan had their planes a few miles out, they called and warned us, because they didn't want to bomb people just the buildings and planes... but for propaganda reasons we had to ignore that one cause it made putting them into camps easier

Nope.  Their embassador tried to tell us after the attack was launched, but Cordell Hull kept him cooling his heels for two hours.  There was no radio broadcast.

That's what they claim, but historian Raymone Stevens identified the actual culprit:

"When the President asked "Why didn't you give us warning"
The Ambassador replied "We try to warn you but we were stuck in traffic all morning...
Behind a little blue haired lady
in a big black Oldsmobile
you could barely see her tiny fingers
hanging on to the steering wheel
She wouldn't speed up
she wouldn't slow down
turn left or right or yield
That little blue haired lady
in a big black Oldsmobile

[Doktor Howl]

What happened to the conspiracy that we knew Pearl was going to be attacked and let it happen so American citizens wouldn't bitch about going to war with Japan?

Funny thing is there was two chances to not have it be suprise buttsex, first one when we broke their code but didn't do anything except remove VIPs because we didn't want them to know we broke it. Second one was when Japan had their planes a few miles out, they called and warned us, because they didn't want to bomb people just the buildings and planes... but for propaganda reasons we had to ignore that one cause it made putting them into camps easier

Nope.  Their embassador tried to tell us after the attack was launched, but Cordell Hull kept him cooling his heels for two hours.  There was no radio broadcast.

That's what they claim, but historian Raymone Stevens identified the actual culprit:

"When the President asked "Why didn't you give us warning"
The Ambassador replied "We try to warn you but we were stuck in traffic all morning...
Behind a little blue haired lady
in a big black Oldsmobile
you could barely see her tiny fingers
hanging on to the steering wheel
She wouldn't speed up
she wouldn't slow down
turn left or right or yield
That little blue haired lady
in a big black Oldsmobile

Too bad Ray Stevens turned into a Teabagger.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

What happened to the conspiracy that we knew Pearl was going to be attacked and let it happen so American citizens wouldn't bitch about going to war with Japan?

Funny thing is there was two chances to not have it be suprise buttsex, first one when we broke their code but didn't do anything except remove VIPs because we didn't want them to know we broke it. Second one was when Japan had their planes a few miles out, they called and warned us, because they didn't want to bomb people just the buildings and planes... but for propaganda reasons we had to ignore that one cause it made putting them into camps easier

Nope.  Their embassador tried to tell us after the attack was launched, but Cordell Hull kept him cooling his heels for two hours.  There was no radio broadcast.

That's what they claim, but historian Raymone Stevens identified the actual culprit:

"When the President asked "Why didn't you give us warning"
The Ambassador replied "We try to warn you but we were stuck in traffic all morning...
Behind a little blue haired lady
in a big black Oldsmobile
you could barely see her tiny fingers
hanging on to the steering wheel
She wouldn't speed up
she wouldn't slow down
turn left or right or yield
That little blue haired lady
in a big black Oldsmobile

Too bad Ray Stevens turned into a Teabagger.

It is. I loved his music as a kid addicted to Dr Demento, however the politically active Stevens seems like something one might write a comedy song about

Though I did like "If 10 percent is good enough for Jesus, it ought to be enough for Uncle Sam"...