Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[Telarus]

Here is the thing my OP was trying to express; that the luxury of "not seeing race" is the exclusive domain of white privilege. It is part and parcel of white privilege.

See Stephen Colbert (the character) rightly making fun of this exact issue: http://www.colbertnation.com/video/tags/don%27t+see+color

[Don Coyote]

So I saw an ad for http://twitter.com/obamatranslated. Its humor is based on racist stereotypes yes?

[navkat]

But that sounds pretty positive to me.

I'm going to make a huge assumption here for a moment and say that the "I don't see race" people are like me about it. I might be inclined to ask your heritage. It's not that I literally don't see the physical attributes that make you different than me, it's that it's not a prominent part of my consciousness. I might, at some point, be hanging out with you and catch something: a unique color in your eyes, a funny curve in your jawline, and find myself naturally, childishly curious about what factors: geography, lineage, etc gave you those things.

Okay, now the cultural identity stuff. This is a different matter altogether and one that makes this clearer to me. Yes, those things I do consciously see to a greater extent...but still sort of fuzzily.

It's funny, we talked about Object Permanence in another thread. No specifics but I'm no stranger to the concept. I have no clear ability to recall crisp pictures of people in my head. People become charicatures of themselves.

I *do* see people in terms of the lifestyles in which they participate. I see musician friends with their instruments and some loose stereotypical symbolism. Pop iconography. I see hippie friends as heads wrapped in 'do rags, smell patchouli in my mind for a moment. As I get to know people more intimately, these factors are replaced with more individual ones. That musician friend? Turns out he's a micro-brew fanatic? I see a bottle of beer somewhere in the mix. The hippie drives a Cube? I see his car zipping around.

What do I think about when someone says "I tie my identity to my black heritage?" Since this is a candid, "challenging discomfort" thread, I'll show you my pictures: I see a woman in african garb and a colorful headwrap. I see Louis Armstrong playing a trumpet with music notes around his head on the mural in the New Orleans bus depot. I see two black women in a kitchen, cooking together and talking about their men in exhuberant tones and laughing. I see the female RN who signed off on my clinical rotations in Pre-admit who told me stories about working her fingers to the bone as a single mom to make RN while her gospel music plays through her computer speakers. I see flashes of run-down neighborhoods with chain link fences and unkempt lawns. I see 80s model Cadillacs taking forever to warm up in cold driveways and little girls with their hair in three braids, held together by those "bolo" hair thingies and plastic barettes. I see boys playing basketball in the park in St Marks in NYC. I see LL Cool J in his boater's style hat and hear snippets of "Around The Way Girl" played on stoops in NY in the late 80s while kids play in the pirated fire-hydrants-cum-sprinklers.

Are these okay? Or are these as bad as blackface? These are, admittedly, much different images than what I'd call up in my head if someone who was black said "My brother and his friend are gonna end up getting themselves killed."

What do you see in your head when you think about me? When I say the word "raver?" When I say "Borderline Personality" or "ADD" or "possible mild Asperger's?" What about "Italian girl from New York?"

How much what we assume, looking at a person is all that bad? How much is by design? How much is an unfortunate negative association that's inextricably linked to certain aspects of the image and identity we've either chosen or accepted for ourselves? When I say "raver" do you see a joyful, dancing girl, spreading positivity, giving hugs and free lolipops to strangers? Or do you see a ridiculous, drug-addled, misguided nutjob, trying desperately to fill a hole inside with chemicals, listening to obnoxious music and wearing stupid pants?

Is BPD a chronic form of PTSD that I've overcome? Or do I carry the stigma of an unstable girl who was once a mess of razor blades and anorexia?

Does "New York Italian" mean anything beyond GTL?

**it seems there have been other posts since I composed this on my slow-ass smartphone so I'm going to stop here, post it anyway and ask for your forgiveness if it's redundant or untimely**

[Phox]

When you say "raver": I picture you in your goofy sunglasses dancing around to a silly song twirling glow sticks and generally having a good time.

When you say Borderline Personality: I think of how difficult that is to live with, and hope that you manage to live life to the fullest anyway. Whether it be dancing with your glow sticks, playing around at Mardi Gras, or riding in the back of an ambulance doin' what you do.

When you say "New York Italian": I think "never would have guessed". Then, eh maybe a bit in the nose, but that's probably confirmation bias, since I didn't see it before. Certainly didn't come across in your voice.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Navkat- i think of you as unusual girl living in the south in a shitty situation who listens to bad music. Note that unusual is not a bad thing here its an admiring sort of unusual and bad music can be equally applied to anyone (one cannot dispute tastes). How am i seen? Am i an irish dude a bostonian a guy in a sort of metal band a metalhead one of those rare pagans who isnt a pachouli smelling hippie a guy who struggles with alcohol consumption and has very strong emotional reactions to death and politics? Were all complex like that. What this thread is helping me realize is that being white isnt part of a white persons bip. Being not white is. I can think of myself as not white but irish because i have the luxury of that. And realizing that im only aware that im american outside of the us helps that too.

Example- i have dual citizenship with ireland. I was born in america. My cousin john is exactly the same as me in that regard. But he was raised there. So when i see this other american,i feel american

[Nephew Twiddleton]

... As opposed to thinking i am an irishman with american citizenship and so is he. Conversely when i am talking to my non american grandfather i see a fellow irishman.

Eta- clarification: when i talk to john i feel difference. Hes irish and im american. When i talk to my grandfather were both irish. Strangely i make no connection with dad along those lines. Hes just dad.

[navkat]

<3 phox <3

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Ech and nigel- a couple of weeks ago i was in a social situation where someone who i know is not antisemitic made a really bad jewish joke and someone caught me rolling my eyes and said oh kevin didnt like that and the joke teller (an irish immigrant who knows im irish) said oh.... Are you jewish? And i went yeah i am. And he was like sorry i didnt mean it that way (and he meant that he was just telling a bad blue collar joke). I had him going for about a half hour and he thought about it and he asked kevin how are you jewish if youre irish? (apparently i caused a lot of introspection ) and i explained if your mother is jewish you are too. He considered it nodded looked like he felt bad and i said im fucking with you. I was raised catholic  by two irish catholics but i converted to celtic neopaganism. I just wanted you to be more mindful about your sense of humor.

That is, actually, awesome, in the sense the he and everyone who witnessed it may be (I hope) more thoughtful of the jokes they tell. Not just censoring of the people around them, but actually more thoughtful. It is totally OK to tell a shitty Jewish joke to Jewish friends; that's a whole other thing. It's the thinking that you can laugh at a joke because the butt of the joke isn't in the room that sucks.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Here is the thing my OP was trying to express; that the luxury of "not seeing race" is the exclusive domain of white privilege. It is part and parcel of white privilege.

See Stephen Colbert (the character) rightly making fun of this exact issue: http://www.colbertnation.com/video/tags/don%27t+see+color

Oh, these are GOOD. Like, holy shit, good.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Ohhhh. This one is especially good. Thank you, Telarus!
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/405561/january-09-2012/melissa-harris-perry

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Exactly. I made it intentionally uncomfortable to send that message. I already knew that they have a jewish friend who would have laughed about it and made some irish and or catholic jokes in response. But man did like five people feel awkward as fuck. And i had friends there who knew i was in no way jewish who played along because they knew what i was doing (i even later made the joke that they could check my dick if they wanted when they werent sure if i was telling the truth when i said i wasnt jewish).

I might make it a point to do this sort of thing more often.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So I saw an ad for http://twitter.com/obamatranslated. Its humor is based on racist stereotypes yes?

Oh hell yes it is.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

But that sounds pretty positive to me.

I'm going to make a huge assumption here for a moment and say that the "I don't see race" people are like me about it. I might be inclined to ask your heritage. It's not that I literally don't see the physical attributes that make you different than me, it's that it's not a prominent part of my consciousness. I might, at some point, be hanging out with you and catch something: a unique color in your eyes, a funny curve in your jawline, and find myself naturally, childishly curious about what factors: geography, lineage, etc gave you those things.

Okay, now the cultural identity stuff. This is a different matter altogether and one that makes this clearer to me. Yes, those things I do consciously see to a greater extent...but still sort of fuzzily.

It's funny, we talked about Object Permanence in another thread. No specifics but I'm no stranger to the concept. I have no clear ability to recall crisp pictures of people in my head. People become charicatures of themselves.

I *do* see people in terms of the lifestyles in which they participate. I see musician friends with their instruments and some loose stereotypical symbolism. Pop iconography. I see hippie friends as heads wrapped in 'do rags, smell patchouli in my mind for a moment. As I get to know people more intimately, these factors are replaced with more individual ones. That musician friend? Turns out he's a micro-brew fanatic? I see a bottle of beer somewhere in the mix. The hippie drives a Cube? I see his car zipping around.

What do I think about when someone says "I tie my identity to my black heritage?" Since this is a candid, "challenging discomfort" thread, I'll show you my pictures: I see a woman in african garb and a colorful headwrap. I see Louis Armstrong playing a trumpet with music notes around his head on the mural in the New Orleans bus depot. I see two black women in a kitchen, cooking together and talking about their men in exhuberant tones and laughing. I see the female RN who signed off on my clinical rotations in Pre-admit who told me stories about working her fingers to the bone as a single mom to make RN while her gospel music plays through her computer speakers. I see flashes of run-down neighborhoods with chain link fences and unkempt lawns. I see 80s model Cadillacs taking forever to warm up in cold driveways and little girls with their hair in three braids, held together by those "bolo" hair thingies and plastic barettes. I see boys playing basketball in the park in St Marks in NYC. I see LL Cool J in his boater's style hat and hear snippets of "Around The Way Girl" played on stoops in NY in the late 80s while kids play in the pirated fire-hydrants-cum-sprinklers.

Are these okay? Or are these as bad as blackface? These are, admittedly, much different images than what I'd call up in my head if someone who was black said "My brother and his friend are gonna end up getting themselves killed."

What do you see in your head when you think about me? When I say the word "raver?" When I say "Borderline Personality" or "ADD" or "possible mild Asperger's?" What about "Italian girl from New York?"

How much what we assume, looking at a person is all that bad? How much is by design? How much is an unfortunate negative association that's inextricably linked to certain aspects of the image and identity we've either chosen or accepted for ourselves? When I say "raver" do you see a joyful, dancing girl, spreading positivity, giving hugs and free lolipops to strangers? Or do you see a ridiculous, drug-addled, misguided nutjob, trying desperately to fill a hole inside with chemicals, listening to obnoxious music and wearing stupid pants?

Is BPD a chronic form of PTSD that I've overcome? Or do I carry the stigma of an unstable girl who was once a mess of razor blades and anorexia?

Does "New York Italian" mean anything beyond GTL?

**it seems there have been other posts since I composed this on my slow-ass smartphone so I'm going to stop here, post it anyway and ask for your forgiveness if it's redundant or untimely**

I'm sorry, but everything you've said, other than the parts where you talk about yourself, has been an expository of "but I have black friends". Also, in this context, as much sympathy as I might give you, your razor blades and anorexia are irrelevant.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Unless you are willing to posit that black girls don't experience anorexia or self-harm.

[Telarus]

Ohhhh. This one is especially good. Thank you, Telarus!
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/405561/january-09-2012/melissa-harris-perry

Yeah, I had missed that one. Thanks Nigel.


As to Navkat's exposition, I don't think that is soley "but I have black friend". Our minds can only juxtaopse the experiences/situations/object-verb-system we have found ourselves in previously.

She has to be able to come to her own terms with it (with the caveat that now your conversations are now part of her experiential pallette).