Excuse me while I vomit.- Trigger Warning for Rape and Rape Culture.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I would like to change the definition of the term. 

Why?

I don't have a particular reason.  Do you have any good alternatives?

I'm just wondering why a label is required for some person who's just out looking for a companion, etc.

I mean, when I was single, I was looking around, but I felt no need for a label like PUA.

There already is a label. "Single and looking". Or did someone go and change up the everything on me again?

great minds.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I would like to change the definition of the term. 

Why?

I don't have a particular reason.  Do you have any good alternatives?

I'm just wondering why a label is required for some person who's just out looking for a companion, etc.

I mean, when I was single, I was looking around, but I felt no need for a label like PUA.

There already is a label. "Single and looking". Or did someone go and change up the everything on me again?

That's more of a status than a label, I think.

1. Unconscious Incompetence
2. Conscious Incompetence
3. Conscious Competence
4. Unconscious Competence

And the Johari window has what significance in this conversation? Can you add some context for bringing it up, and/or maybe try to establish a point?

Because what I, personally, get from it is that anybody who is seeking guidance from PUA books/websites would be better served with a decent therapist.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

LMNO was pretty right but I'm talkIng about the men not the material. I only know what was said in The Game but I'm not familiar with anything since. The most unpleasant things I recall we're negging and basically sulking until she gives in and fucks you. Now, they're both pathetic but in a legal sense, I'm really really not convinced they're rape. I'm not about to try to say they're ethical though (they're not.)

I think most men who jump into it are guys who just want to know how to get laid and have no confidence or social skills. I think by far the majority want to be desired, not to force a woman into something she doesn't want.

Rat made some good points about deception.

There is a law in America I believe which outlines 'Rape by Deception.' I think specifically it refers to passing yourself off as another (real) person.

In Aus there was a test case "I'll have sex with you in you send me red roses (it was like, 100 or something). No roses, and pretty certain courts said no rape.

What do you think of the Assange case? Conscent IF a condom is worn followed by a rapid 'oops it magically fell off.'

Really, if every man who wasn't actually a wealthy playboy astronaught the morning after was a rapist, the rape statistics would be unfuckingimaginable.

Also are we all talking about Consent at a legal level? Or just in the common use of the word? Is there a difference?


Also as far as the 'skill' thing goes, I agree with Blackfoot just in that social skills are just that, 'skills.' Talking to people I don't intuitively click with (small town, have to do that a fair bit, can't just make friends with people like me cos they're pretty limited) so I've had to learn how to do the social thing.

Holy crap, this post speaks volumes about your level of fucked-upness in terms of the way you view women. I bet you don't think of yourself as a misogynist, either.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't know. At the very least you were manipulated by an asshole.

So if you say no and resist, but don't scream or struggle because you're afraid of getting hurt, it's not rape?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

And if you ask often enough, SOMEONE is eventually going to say yes, and you'll get your rocks off without having to be a shitneck about it.

We had this ugly little bastard at Ft Drum that would do exactly that.  Hit the bar, ask every girl in the place for some loving.  If the girl wasn't interested, he'd just move on to the next.

He never went home alone, and in fact usually left early with someone.  Being bold & forthright about things can pay off, as soon as you find someone that's there for the exact same reason you are there.

That's not PUA, of course.  He employed no "tricks". He would sit next to a girl, strike up a conversation, and then flat out ask if she wanted to go somewhere and get her nasty on.  He had learned, you see, that bit of knowledge that evades the PUA-tards:  Women like sex, too, and tricks are not required.

But PUA tards are not capable of seeing that, because they view women as conquests to attain, not human beings with the same drives as any other human being.

Actually that's incorrect. I read one of those "pick up guides" over a decade ago, and one of the first things it said was if you want to pick up women, you need to get out there, try often and not be afraid to fail often. There was even a story in it about a guy with pretty much that same "technique". The other thing it said was indeed that women like sex too, and everybody wants to have a good time. Soon after that it started with the fake psychology and bullshit stories and "tricks" and all that. I never really bought into those. But I dunno, I guess I'm just good at taking the right parts with a bucket of salt and sifting out the actual bits of good info (actually pretty easy: it's the parts you actually can believe) cause believe it or not, at the time it taught me a few useful things, mostly about confidence and basic social skills. Which is also why I kind of take offence to TEXAS FAIRIES saying earlier that all PUA-types are proto-rapists.

Since it's already established that guys who get out there and talk to a lot of women in a no-bullshit fashion, with the intent that sooner or later one will agree to sex, aren't PUA's, I'm not sure what you're "kind of taking offense" at.

It's not that tricky. The idea that all PUA types want to rape women is ridiculous.

I mean, there's a lot wrong with that culture. But to me it seems obviously hyperbolic to suggest all PUA types are would be rapists.

I think you are confusing the individuals with the culture. PUA philosophy and culture are conducive to rape. People who self-identify as PUA are people who support a philosophy and culture which is proto-rapist; the philosophy behind it is the cesspool from which rape arises.

Ok I can accept that depiction.

I'm not confusing them I'm drawing a distinction. I dint think men get into this stuff wanting to rape. I can accept what you say about the culture. But I'm saying I disagree that men get into it wanting to rape.

Who are you disagreeing with? I don't recall anyone saying they did.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I don't know. At the very least you were manipulated by an asshole.

So if you say no and resist, but don't scream or struggle because you're afraid of getting hurt, it's not rape?

No, that's not what I said. I said I don't know if a guy being pushy is rape. If he implies violence in any way, that's rape. If he doesn't he may just be really horny and not have respect or understanding for boundaries. If the woman Cleary says NO and pushes him away and he continues... That close enough to rape for my thinking. If she just kinda whines that she's tired but continues making out... I dunno. Maybe it just depends on how the woman feels afterward, if its rape in her mind  I wouldn't disagree.

[Freeky]

Just kinda whines?  Wow.  Just wow.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Just kinda whines?  Wow.  Just wow.

Sorry if that came across badly. It was a very inappropriate way to phrase my thought.

[Juana]

No kidding, Rat.

I don't know. At the very least you were manipulated by an asshole.

So if you say no and resist, but don't scream or struggle because you're afraid of getting hurt, it's not rape?

No, that's not what I said. I said I don't know if a guy being pushy is rape. If he implies violence in any way, that's rape. If he doesn't he may just be really horny and not have respect or understanding for boundaries. If the woman Cleary says NO and pushes him away and he continues... That close enough to rape for my thinking. If she just kinda whines that she's tired but continues making out... I dunno. Maybe it just depends on how the woman feels afterward, if its rape in her mind  I wouldn't disagree.

If he keeps pushing, the question for her becomes, "what will he do if I keep saying no?" He doesn't need to be overt in implying violence.

[Placid Dingo]

And if you ask often enough, SOMEONE is eventually going to say yes, and you'll get your rocks off without having to be a shitneck about it.

We had this ugly little bastard at Ft Drum that would do exactly that.  Hit the bar, ask every girl in the place for some loving.  If the girl wasn't interested, he'd just move on to the next.

He never went home alone, and in fact usually left early with someone.  Being bold & forthright about things can pay off, as soon as you find someone that's there for the exact same reason you are there.

That's not PUA, of course.  He employed no "tricks". He would sit next to a girl, strike up a conversation, and then flat out ask if she wanted to go somewhere and get her nasty on.  He had learned, you see, that bit of knowledge that evades the PUA-tards:  Women like sex, too, and tricks are not required.

But PUA tards are not capable of seeing that, because they view women as conquests to attain, not human beings with the same drives as any other human being.

Actually that's incorrect. I read one of those "pick up guides" over a decade ago, and one of the first things it said was if you want to pick up women, you need to get out there, try often and not be afraid to fail often. There was even a story in it about a guy with pretty much that same "technique". The other thing it said was indeed that women like sex too, and everybody wants to have a good time. Soon after that it started with the fake psychology and bullshit stories and "tricks" and all that. I never really bought into those. But I dunno, I guess I'm just good at taking the right parts with a bucket of salt and sifting out the actual bits of good info (actually pretty easy: it's the parts you actually can believe) cause believe it or not, at the time it taught me a few useful things, mostly about confidence and basic social skills. Which is also why I kind of take offence to TEXAS FAIRIES saying earlier that all PUA-types are proto-rapists.

Since it's already established that guys who get out there and talk to a lot of women in a no-bullshit fashion, with the intent that sooner or later one will agree to sex, aren't PUA's, I'm not sure what you're "kind of taking offense" at.

It's not that tricky. The idea that all PUA types want to rape women is ridiculous.

I mean, there's a lot wrong with that culture. But to me it seems obviously hyperbolic to suggest all PUA types are would be rapists.

I think you are confusing the individuals with the culture. PUA philosophy and culture are conducive to rape. People who self-identify as PUA are people who support a philosophy and culture which is proto-rapist; the philosophy behind it is the cesspool from which rape arises.

Ok I can accept that depiction.

I'm not confusing them I'm drawing a distinction. I dint think men get into this stuff wanting to rape. I can accept what you say about the culture. But I'm saying I disagree that men get into it wanting to rape.

Who are you disagreeing with? I don't recall anyone saying they did.

Texas Faires said all PUAs want to be rapists I believe. That's what I disagreed with specifically.

EDIT: This post

PUA's are essentially wannabe rapists anyway and this "beta" shit falls in the same box.

"I'M GONNA DOMINATE THE SHIT OUT OF THAT BETA GUY SHE LIKES AND FUCK SHIT OUTTA HER." Nevermind what SHE wants.

Trip referenced it ITT. I read it as a comment on the people (and in my defence it is specifically written about the PUA's not the culture) but I can understand if it was meant to be a comment on the culture.

I got into PUA breifly when I hit Uni because it was the first thing I saw that actually articulated the social process. Not negging, not Alpha/Beta etc, just stuff like project confidence, make eye contact, speak loudly and clearly etc really helped me. Then I got a girlfriend and forgot about it, and by the time that relationship ended I'd pretty much outgrown it. So you can see why I took offence to being told PUA types want to rape women.

Kind of embarressing and a bit naive? Sure. Evidence I was on my way to being a rapist? NO.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

No kidding, Rat.

I don't know. At the very least you were manipulated by an asshole.

So if you say no and resist, but don't scream or struggle because you're afraid of getting hurt, it's not rape?

No, that's not what I said. I said I don't know if a guy being pushy is rape. If he implies violence in any way, that's rape. If he doesn't he may just be really horny and not have respect or understanding for boundaries. If the woman Cleary says NO and pushes him away and he continues... That close enough to rape for my thinking. If she just kinda whines that she's tired but continues making out... I dunno. Maybe it just depends on how the woman feels afterward, if its rape in her mind  I wouldn't disagree.

If he keeps pushing, the question for her becomes, "what will he do if I keep saying no?" He doesn't need to be overt in implying violence.

So how do you differentiate between some horny guy with a poor understanding of boundaries and a rapist?

[Placid Dingo]

LMNO was pretty right but I'm talkIng about the men not the material. I only know what was said in The Game but I'm not familiar with anything since. The most unpleasant things I recall we're negging and basically sulking until she gives in and fucks you. Now, they're both pathetic but in a legal sense, I'm really really not convinced they're rape. I'm not about to try to say they're ethical though (they're not.)

I think most men who jump into it are guys who just want to know how to get laid and have no confidence or social skills. I think by far the majority want to be desired, not to force a woman into something she doesn't want.

Rat made some good points about deception.

There is a law in America I believe which outlines 'Rape by Deception.' I think specifically it refers to passing yourself off as another (real) person.

In Aus there was a test case "I'll have sex with you in you send me red roses (it was like, 100 or something). No roses, and pretty certain courts said no rape.

What do you think of the Assange case? Conscent IF a condom is worn followed by a rapid 'oops it magically fell off.'

Really, if every man who wasn't actually a wealthy playboy astronaught the morning after was a rapist, the rape statistics would be unfuckingimaginable.

Also are we all talking about Consent at a legal level? Or just in the common use of the word? Is there a difference?


Also as far as the 'skill' thing goes, I agree with Blackfoot just in that social skills are just that, 'skills.' Talking to people I don't intuitively click with (small town, have to do that a fair bit, can't just make friends with people like me cos they're pretty limited) so I've had to learn how to do the social thing.

Holy crap, this post speaks volumes about your level of fucked-upness in terms of the way you view women. I bet you don't think of yourself as a misogynist, either.

That's really hurtful, actually. Sorry to be a sook, and I know this is the Internet and all but, 1, I actually really value your opinion Nigel on most things and, 2, personally respect for women and equality between genders is extremely important to me on a fairly fundamental level.

This probably isn't going to shock anyone on PDcom but I do seem to word things rather badly at times, to the point of misrepresenting my views. To put it in really clear term; I find it hard to believe that one person lying to another (in the sense that they misrepresent themselves to make themselves look better, smarter, richer, kinder, more successfull etc) is rape. Now if I'm wrong, correct me. I'm ok with being wrong and being corrected.

I feel I may have implied that women only want to be with men for their money and success and are superficially satisfied with any partner if they're wealthy and successful. If so, I apologise, it's not what I believe.

If there's something else I'm implying please let me know because the honest truth is I like women (or anyway I generally like people) and believe very strongly in equality and I identify as a feminist, so if I'm sending off mysogynist vibes I'd appreciate knowing how so so I can cut that shit out.

[Juana]

No kidding, Rat.

I don't know. At the very least you were manipulated by an asshole.

So if you say no and resist, but don't scream or struggle because you're afraid of getting hurt, it's not rape?

No, that's not what I said. I said I don't know if a guy being pushy is rape. If he implies violence in any way, that's rape. If he doesn't he may just be really horny and not have respect or understanding for boundaries. If the woman Cleary says NO and pushes him away and he continues... That close enough to rape for my thinking. If she just kinda whines that she's tired but continues making out... I dunno. Maybe it just depends on how the woman feels afterward, if its rape in her mind  I wouldn't disagree.

If he keeps pushing, the question for her becomes, "what will he do if I keep saying no?" He doesn't need to be overt in implying violence.

So how do you differentiate between some horny guy with a poor understanding of boundaries and a rapist?

A horny guy with poor understanding of boundaries can still commit rape. I think you need to go re-read Pixie's article because that's part of what the OP is about, you know.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

No kidding, Rat.

I don't know. At the very least you were manipulated by an asshole.

So if you say no and resist, but don't scream or struggle because you're afraid of getting hurt, it's not rape?

No, that's not what I said. I said I don't know if a guy being pushy is rape. If he implies violence in any way, that's rape. If he doesn't he may just be really horny and not have respect or understanding for boundaries. If the woman Cleary says NO and pushes him away and he continues... That close enough to rape for my thinking. If she just kinda whines that she's tired but continues making out... I dunno. Maybe it just depends on how the woman feels afterward, if its rape in her mind  I wouldn't disagree.

If he keeps pushing, the question for her becomes, "what will he do if I keep saying no?" He doesn't need to be overt in implying violence.

This.

One thing that I think a lot of guys don't think about, and probably don't want to think about, is that we are afraid of you. Categorically, not personally. We are afraid, and with good reason. This is not an irrational fear; this is a simple reality of survival and self-preservation. PUA techniques train men to exploit that fear by pushing boundaries, rather than engaging in courtship, a process which builds trust.

The reason the absence of yes means no is because of this fear. If you just met a woman and don't yet know her enough for her to have built up the level of trust to trust that you WON'T hurt her if she struggles, if you have sex with her despite what you are choosing to perceive as ambivalence, yes, it could very well be rape. The odds of her letting you kiss her at the end of the evening just to be polite are higher than you might guess, and the odds of her not knowing how to put up a fight or being afraid to seem rude, skyrocket if she's ever been previously raped or abused. It's simple self-preservation; "this one seems pushy, better to just let him do it than get the shit beat out of me again".

Pushing the blame for this onto the woman is bullshit, simply because the reason this happens in the first place is because of the power imbalance. If men were, categorically speaking, afraid that women would physically hurt them, reluctant men might more often succumb to sex with a pushy woman, and that, too, would be rape.

The bottom line; if she's not on board, back off. You can court her until she is on board, but pushing her boundaries and ignoring her protests is not unlikely to result in rape, whether you think it is or not.

The amazing thing is how many of these guys don't understand why a woman they had sex with, or made out with, won't return their phone calls. They just don't hear "no".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

No kidding, Rat.

I don't know. At the very least you were manipulated by an asshole.

So if you say no and resist, but don't scream or struggle because you're afraid of getting hurt, it's not rape?

No, that's not what I said. I said I don't know if a guy being pushy is rape. If he implies violence in any way, that's rape. If he doesn't he may just be really horny and not have respect or understanding for boundaries. If the woman Cleary says NO and pushes him away and he continues... That close enough to rape for my thinking. If she just kinda whines that she's tired but continues making out... I dunno. Maybe it just depends on how the woman feels afterward, if its rape in her mind  I wouldn't disagree.

If he keeps pushing, the question for her becomes, "what will he do if I keep saying no?" He doesn't need to be overt in implying violence.

So how do you differentiate between some horny guy with a poor understanding of boundaries and a rapist?

I am not sure I understand why you are making that distinction. Rape is not defined by intention.