Excuse me while I vomit.- Trigger Warning for Rape and Rape Culture.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I do my best. 

As for Blackfoot, I gathered from the thread in OKM that he doesn't have a point and is just fucking around, but I could be wrong.

I disagree.  I just don't think he's able to make his point, because he himself isn't sure what that point is.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So, you DON'T feel like it's OK to push a woman's boundaries when she says no to sex? Then what are you arguing about? Do you even know?

What was being pointed out is that there is a distinction between boundaries, objections, and resistance.

When you push a boundary and the person isn't a basket case, you'll get objections and resistance. Ignore at your own peril.
Please explain how you implement this "distinction".

He can't explain it any more than he can explain anything else, for the simple reason that he has no idea what he's talking about. As far as I'm concerned he's disposable; a non-person.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So, you DON'T feel like it's OK to push a woman's boundaries when she says no to sex? Then what are you arguing about? Do you even know?

What was being pointed out is that there is a distinction between boundaries, objections, and resistance.

When you push a boundary and the person isn't a basket case, you'll get objections and resistance. Ignore at your own peril.
Please explain how you implement this "distinction".

He can't explain it any more than he can explain anything else, for the simple reason that he has no idea what he's talking about. As far as I'm concerned he's disposable; a non-person.

But remember, everyone starts out that way.

You get done with high school and college or the military or an early marriage, and you're basically a factory blank full of pre-packaged, one-size-fits-all conditioning.  The critical difference is whether or not you can swallow your pride or cover up your enflamed baboon ass long enough to become a functional biped.

And Discordianism, of course, is by no means the sole route to that state.

It IS, however, the most interesting one.

And by "interesting", I mean, "Full of bourbon".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So, you DON'T feel like it's OK to push a woman's boundaries when she says no to sex? Then what are you arguing about? Do you even know?

What was being pointed out is that there is a distinction between boundaries, objections, and resistance.

When you push a boundary and the person isn't a basket case, you'll get objections and resistance. Ignore at your own peril.
Please explain how you implement this "distinction".

He can't explain it any more than he can explain anything else, for the simple reason that he has no idea what he's talking about. As far as I'm concerned he's disposable; a non-person.

But remember, everyone starts out that way.

You get done with high school and college or the military or an early marriage, and you're basically a factory blank full of pre-packaged, one-size-fits-all conditioning.  The critical difference is whether or not you can swallow your pride or cover up your enflamed baboon ass long enough to become a functional biped.

And Discordianism, of course, is by no means the sole route to that state.

It IS, however, the most interesting one.

And by "interesting", I mean, "Full of bourbon".

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So, you DON'T feel like it's OK to push a woman's boundaries when she says no to sex? Then what are you arguing about? Do you even know?

What was being pointed out is that there is a distinction between boundaries, objections, and resistance.

When you push a boundary and the person isn't a basket case, you'll get objections and resistance. Ignore at your own peril.
Please explain how you implement this "distinction".

He can't explain it any more than he can explain anything else, for the simple reason that he has no idea what he's talking about. As far as I'm concerned he's disposable; a non-person.

But remember, everyone starts out that way.

You get done with high school and college or the military or an early marriage, and you're basically a factory blank full of pre-packaged, one-size-fits-all conditioning.  The critical difference is whether or not you can swallow your pride or cover up your enflamed baboon ass long enough to become a functional biped.

And Discordianism, of course, is by no means the sole route to that state.

It IS, however, the most interesting one.

And by "interesting", I mean, "Full of bourbon".

Don't blame me.  I'M not a quitter.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So, you DON'T feel like it's OK to push a woman's boundaries when she says no to sex? Then what are you arguing about? Do you even know?

What was being pointed out is that there is a distinction between boundaries, objections, and resistance.

When you push a boundary and the person isn't a basket case, you'll get objections and resistance. Ignore at your own peril.
Please explain how you implement this "distinction".

He can't explain it any more than he can explain anything else, for the simple reason that he has no idea what he's talking about. As far as I'm concerned he's disposable; a non-person.

But remember, everyone starts out that way.

You get done with high school and college or the military or an early marriage, and you're basically a factory blank full of pre-packaged, one-size-fits-all conditioning.  The critical difference is whether or not you can swallow your pride or cover up your enflamed baboon ass long enough to become a functional biped.

And Discordianism, of course, is by no means the sole route to that state.

It IS, however, the most interesting one.

And by "interesting", I mean, "Full of bourbon".

Don't blame me.  I'M not a quitter.

It's FOR MY HEALTH! I had to quit, I DIED!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So, you DON'T feel like it's OK to push a woman's boundaries when she says no to sex? Then what are you arguing about? Do you even know?

What was being pointed out is that there is a distinction between boundaries, objections, and resistance.

When you push a boundary and the person isn't a basket case, you'll get objections and resistance. Ignore at your own peril.
Please explain how you implement this "distinction".

He can't explain it any more than he can explain anything else, for the simple reason that he has no idea what he's talking about. As far as I'm concerned he's disposable; a non-person.

But remember, everyone starts out that way.

You get done with high school and college or the military or an early marriage, and you're basically a factory blank full of pre-packaged, one-size-fits-all conditioning.  The critical difference is whether or not you can swallow your pride or cover up your enflamed baboon ass long enough to become a functional biped.

And Discordianism, of course, is by no means the sole route to that state.

It IS, however, the most interesting one.

And by "interesting", I mean, "Full of bourbon".

Don't blame me.  I'M not a quitter.

It's FOR MY HEALTH! I had to quit, I DIED!

You QUIT, then you DIED.

Let's work on that connection for a moment, shall we?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Besides, I'm just taking a break. Until I come back to life and my liver regenerates.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So, you DON'T feel like it's OK to push a woman's boundaries when she says no to sex? Then what are you arguing about? Do you even know?

What was being pointed out is that there is a distinction between boundaries, objections, and resistance.

When you push a boundary and the person isn't a basket case, you'll get objections and resistance. Ignore at your own peril.
Please explain how you implement this "distinction".

He can't explain it any more than he can explain anything else, for the simple reason that he has no idea what he's talking about. As far as I'm concerned he's disposable; a non-person.

But remember, everyone starts out that way.

You get done with high school and college or the military or an early marriage, and you're basically a factory blank full of pre-packaged, one-size-fits-all conditioning.  The critical difference is whether or not you can swallow your pride or cover up your enflamed baboon ass long enough to become a functional biped.

And Discordianism, of course, is by no means the sole route to that state.

It IS, however, the most interesting one.

And by "interesting", I mean, "Full of bourbon".

Don't blame me.  I'M not a quitter.

It's FOR MY HEALTH! I had to quit, I DIED!

You QUIT, then you DIED.

Let's work on that connection for a moment, shall we?

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT WOULD HAPPEN.

Nobody told me.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So, you DON'T feel like it's OK to push a woman's boundaries when she says no to sex? Then what are you arguing about? Do you even know?

What was being pointed out is that there is a distinction between boundaries, objections, and resistance.

When you push a boundary and the person isn't a basket case, you'll get objections and resistance. Ignore at your own peril.
Please explain how you implement this "distinction".

He can't explain it any more than he can explain anything else, for the simple reason that he has no idea what he's talking about. As far as I'm concerned he's disposable; a non-person.

But remember, everyone starts out that way.

You get done with high school and college or the military or an early marriage, and you're basically a factory blank full of pre-packaged, one-size-fits-all conditioning.  The critical difference is whether or not you can swallow your pride or cover up your enflamed baboon ass long enough to become a functional biped.

And Discordianism, of course, is by no means the sole route to that state.

It IS, however, the most interesting one.

And by "interesting", I mean, "Full of bourbon".

Don't blame me.  I'M not a quitter.

It's FOR MY HEALTH! I had to quit, I DIED!

You QUIT, then you DIED.

Let's work on that connection for a moment, shall we?

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT WOULD HAPPEN.

Nobody told me.

Did you read the instruction manual, or just throw it away?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So, you DON'T feel like it's OK to push a woman's boundaries when she says no to sex? Then what are you arguing about? Do you even know?

What was being pointed out is that there is a distinction between boundaries, objections, and resistance.

When you push a boundary and the person isn't a basket case, you'll get objections and resistance. Ignore at your own peril.
Please explain how you implement this "distinction".

He can't explain it any more than he can explain anything else, for the simple reason that he has no idea what he's talking about. As far as I'm concerned he's disposable; a non-person.

But remember, everyone starts out that way.

You get done with high school and college or the military or an early marriage, and you're basically a factory blank full of pre-packaged, one-size-fits-all conditioning.  The critical difference is whether or not you can swallow your pride or cover up your enflamed baboon ass long enough to become a functional biped.

And Discordianism, of course, is by no means the sole route to that state.

It IS, however, the most interesting one.

And by "interesting", I mean, "Full of bourbon".

Don't blame me.  I'M not a quitter.

It's FOR MY HEALTH! I had to quit, I DIED!

You QUIT, then you DIED.

Let's work on that connection for a moment, shall we?

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT WOULD HAPPEN.

Nobody told me.

Did you read the instruction manual, or just throw it away?

Wait... that was a manual? 

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

No kidding, Rat.

I don't know. At the very least you were manipulated by an asshole.

So if you say no and resist, but don't scream or struggle because you're afraid of getting hurt, it's not rape?

No, that's not what I said. I said I don't know if a guy being pushy is rape. If he implies violence in any way, that's rape. If he doesn't he may just be really horny and not have respect or understanding for boundaries. If the woman Cleary says NO and pushes him away and he continues... That close enough to rape for my thinking. If she just kinda whines that she's tired but continues making out... I dunno. Maybe it just depends on how the woman feels afterward, if its rape in her mind  I wouldn't disagree.

If he keeps pushing, the question for her becomes, "what will he do if I keep saying no?" He doesn't need to be overt in implying violence.

This.

One thing that I think a lot of guys don't think about, and probably don't want to think about, is that we are afraid of you. Categorically, not personally. We are afraid, and with good reason. This is not an irrational fear; this is a simple reality of survival and self-preservation. PUA techniques train men to exploit that fear by pushing boundaries, rather than engaging in courtship, a process which builds trust.

The reason the absence of yes means no is because of this fear. If you just met a woman and don't yet know her enough for her to have built up the level of trust to trust that you WON'T hurt her if she struggles, if you have sex with her despite what you are choosing to perceive as ambivalence, yes, it could very well be rape. The odds of her letting you kiss her at the end of the evening just to be polite are higher than you might guess, and the odds of her not knowing how to put up a fight or being afraid to seem rude, skyrocket if she's ever been previously raped or abused. It's simple self-preservation; "this one seems pushy, better to just let him do it than get the shit beat out of me again".

Pushing the blame for this onto the woman is bullshit, simply because the reason this happens in the first place is because of the power imbalance. If men were, categorically speaking, afraid that women would physically hurt them, reluctant men might more often succumb to sex with a pushy woman, and that, too, would be rape.

The bottom line; if she's not on board, back off. You can court her until she is on board, but pushing her boundaries and ignoring her protests is not unlikely to result in rape, whether you think it is or not.

The amazing thing is how many of these guys don't understand why a woman they had sex with, or made out with, won't return their phone calls. They just don't hear "no".

I feel the need to post a link to an article called Schrodinger's Rapist, to back up Nigel's personal assertions here.

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

When a guy is pushy or playing up being a playa or something, I get MASSIVE alarm bells.  I don't like it when people don't respect my personal space if I don't know them very well, and it triggers a state of hypervigilance in me.  Ideally someone would be at an arms length distance from me in a courtship/ testing the waters of my receptiveness to intimate physical contact situation, or I'll get hella uncomfortable.  The other week I was in London with my best mate, staying with Baggage's (Baggage is what I call my best friend.) friend Viv and Viv's BF,  it's the wee small hours and I'm having a beer and a chat, and some guys come over after their night out to see Viv's BF Tony. 

One of them is incredibly full on and zones in on me and is as subtle as a half brick to the face.  This is on a night where I've already growled at a drunk for touching my ass, and I'm finally where I'm going to crash and am relaxed. I was until this guy sits next to me and takes up as much space as he can, so much so I get my legs drawn up to my chest and am displaying very guarded body language. I am unsure as to whether I should tell the guy, "dude, personal space, yo, please recognise!" as this is a new place, with only one person I know really well, for fear of being told I'm overreacting or coming across as a bitch. (gender roles and social conditioning, anyone?) His friends look uncomfortable with the situation yet he totally doesn't notice. His friends want to leave soon after this, and he asks me for a hug. I say no, as a way of seeing if he will respect my boundaries, and he protests a little, but ultimately backs off.  He asks the same of Baggage, and she says "ok" but then he asks for a kiss and by this point, she's looking uncomfortable and pushes past/ is oblivious to her resistance when she doesn't say no.  If I was single, this guy wouldn't even get my phone number, or in a bar type situation I wouldn't accept a drink from him.   The guy was no PUA, there was no negging or stuff, just too damned pushy.  Pushy makes my vulva want to retreat up into my vagina and into my uterus and post a large "NO ENTRY" sign on the outside of my underwear. All it takes for me to be hyper vigilant around a person is one display of not recognising or disregarding boundaries.

ALSO GUYS, HOLY SHITCOCKING CHRIST! I WENT FOR FOOD, CAME BACK AND FINISHED THIS ONE POST AND 26 NEW POSTS!

[Pope Lecherous]

Objection and resistance are what people use to mark and reinforce their boundaries. An objection shows you where the boundary is; resistance is pushing back when you try to cross it.

I think this is the core of the matter. 

If a person has a dogma and a belief that is unchangeable I respect it as a solid boundary.  I deal with them accordingly, in most cases this means not at all. e.g. a religious person and i respect their choice.  I leave it be.  This applies to all people i interact with.

On the other hand, I regard people's boundaries the same way i regard ideas.  They can be challenged and criticized. 

I feel that if i can show a person that their belief is wrong or unfounded, maybe they can do the thing that Roger gives you so much credit for:  Admitting they are wrong.  They don't have to admit it to me, only to themselves, if they are capable.  I don't force people to see.  When talking to women I give them hints and suggestions to indicate that their idea is wrong, and i respect them enough to let them come to their own conclusion.  In other words, i plant the seed of doubt.  I plant the seed of doubt in them regarding their boundaries and/or objections.  If they come to realize that their boundaries aren't necessary OR aren't necessary with me, great.  Otherwise, I move on.

I'm still trying to communicate here.  I think this paints a pretty good general picture.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Objection and resistance are what people use to mark and reinforce their boundaries. An objection shows you where the boundary is; resistance is pushing back when you try to cross it.

I think this is the core of the matter. 

If a person has a dogma and a belief that is unchangeable I respect it as a solid boundary.  I deal with them accordingly, in most cases this means not at all. e.g. a religious person and i respect their choice.  I leave it be.  This applies to all people i interact with.

On the other hand, I regard people's boundaries the same way i regard ideas.  They can be challenged and criticized. 

I feel that if i can show a person that their belief is wrong or unfounded, maybe they can do the thing that Roger gives you so much credit for:  Admitting they are wrong.  They don't have to admit it to me, only to themselves, if they are capable.  I don't force people to see.  When talking to women I give them hints and suggestions to indicate that their idea is wrong, and i respect them enough to let them come to their own conclusion.  In other words, i plant the seed of doubt.  I plant the seed of doubt in them regarding their boundaries and/or objections.  If they come to realize that their boundaries aren't necessary OR aren't necessary with me, great.  Otherwise, I move on.

I'm still trying to communicate here.  I think this paints a pretty good general picture.

Your way of talking about boundaries creeps me out, dude.  Culturally and generally speaking, the way women are conditioned to behave, (being nice, polite, people pleasing and non-confrontational) means that we have a massive minefield to negotiate in certain social situations, especially if we are trying to recognise where we have failed to implement them in the past to our personal detriment.  A lot of guys I have met are totally unaware of this, and sadly, you seem to be one of them.

[Juana]

Fuck you, BF. Boundaries exist because, as humans, we need them. Challenging/criticizing/trying to make me or any other female doubt our boundaries is NOT OKAY. You may think they're unnecessary, but you're a man and a stranger; you don't know why they exist and have demonstrated zero interest in learning why.
So fuck off.

Quite frankly, I'm concerned for the safety of any female and/or woman in your vicinity.