Excuse me while I vomit.- Trigger Warning for Rape and Rape Culture.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Of course! How could I forget? I'm just a silly female who should question what does and does not make me feel unsafe when it suits men!

Your feeling that strange men hitting on you in clubs might be dangerous is inconvenient for him, Garbo! So clearly, he ought to try to make you question it, because your silly idea is wrong and he's right, and that way you can grow and learn.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,32930.msg1196040.html#msg1196040

I'm not sure if Blackfoot read this, so I'm posting the link to to the part of the thread.

He's not going to read it, Pixie. He's not open to information that might conflict with the behavior and techniques he has already concluded are acceptable.

[Juana]

Oh thank you, Wise Blackfoot! Your guidance is key to my personal growth! Without your help, I'm sure I'd feel safe in the company of men most of the time because I can trust what I feel and enforce accordingly! We can't have that, amirite? Much better for me to be an android without boundaries for masculine pleasure than a person!

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,32930.msg1196040.html#msg1196040

I'm not sure if Blackfoot read this, so I'm posting the link to to the part of the thread.

He's not going to read it, Pixie. He's not open to information that might conflict with the behavior and techniques he has already concluded are acceptable.

^^ This. The best that can be hoped for is skimming if you paste the text here. :/

[Freeky]

That article plus the last few pages of what Nigel, pixie, Garbo, etc all have said ought to be required reading for everybody.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Objection and resistance are what people use to mark and reinforce their boundaries. An objection shows you where the boundary is; resistance is pushing back when you try to cross it.

I think this is the core of the matter. 

If a person has a dogma and a belief that is unchangeable I respect it as a solid boundary.  I deal with them accordingly, in most cases this means not at all. e.g. a religious person and i respect their choice.  I leave it be.  This applies to all people i interact with.

On the other hand, I regard people's boundaries the same way i regard ideas.  They can be challenged and criticized. 

I feel that if i can show a person that their belief is wrong or unfounded, maybe they can do the thing that Roger gives you so much credit for:  Admitting they are wrong.  They don't have to admit it to me, only to themselves, if they are capable.  I don't force people to see.  When talking to women I give them hints and suggestions to indicate that their idea is wrong, and i respect them enough to let them come to their own conclusion.  In other words, i plant the seed of doubt.  I plant the seed of doubt in them regarding their boundaries and/or objections.  If they come to realize that their boundaries aren't necessary OR aren't necessary with me, great.  Otherwise, I move on.

I'm still trying to communicate here.  I think this paints a pretty good general picture.

Challenge my boundaries and see what happens.
Usually involves my dogs, flying chairs, or the cops. Whatever's handy.

[East Coast Hustle]

I'd just like to remind everyone one more time that this conversation is being held with a person who formerly called themselves "Pope Lecherous".

[Juana]

I missed that the first time around. Oh man.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Fuck you, BF. Boundaries exist because, as humans, we need them.

Do you need all the boundaries you have set up?  How many of them come from an unjustified fear and you don't even realize it?  Do you fear strangers or do you have a healthy respect for how dangerous human beings can be?  There is a difference.

LOOK, DICKWEED.

Nobody here is SCARED of you and your ilk. The point is that WE DON'T LIKE YOU. WOMEN ARE NOT ATTRACTED TO THIS GARBAGE. WE DON'T WANT YOU AND ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO WASTE PERFECTLY GOOD MINUTES OUT OF OUR LIVES LETTING YOU CLIMB ALL OVER US POKING YOUR LITTLE PEEPEE.

"BOUNDARY" = "I DON'T WANT YOU. FUCK OFF."

Challenging/criticizing/trying to make me or any other female doubt our boundaries is NOT OKAY. You may think they're unnecessary, but you're a man and a stranger; you don't know why they exist and have demonstrated zero interest in learning why.
So fuck off.

Your boundaries are as sacred to me as your ideas.  Some are firmly rooted in your knowledge and experience and can not/need not be challenged, others not as much. This is something you we will probably disagree on, but if you can explain it to  me in another way i'm more than willing to listen.

Quite frankly, I'm concerned for the safety of any female and/or woman in your vicinity.

Quite frankly you should be concerned for the safety of all human beings in my vicinity especially my enemies, but it's pretty hard to make me an enemy of me.  I found out THIS morning that a friend of mine has been GANG RAPED.  What do you think i feel about this situation?  Say some fucked up shit.  Crack a fucking joke like you think i don't give a shit and you'll have not made yourself an enemy, but permanently written yourself off at the least.  What did her boyfriend say?  He said that she was ruined and no longer desirable. Imagine how you feel about that.  The only person in this world who feels worse is the victim.  A dear friend of mine.

"One of my best friends is (black/gay/a victim of gang rape)" 

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

That article plus the last few pages of what Nigel, pixie, Garbo, etc all have said ought to be required reading for everybody.

Thanks, Freeky!

It's kind of infuriating, as Thursday before I left for the day out I had Friday, the thread was shaping up quite well, and the PUA part and how that ties into sexist behaviours and attitudes as well as rape culture was pretty well handled by the participants. Then Blackfoot started kneejerking and equivocating like a motherfucker, redefining terms and generally being a bit of a weaselly little scrote.

Garbo underlined what she, me and Nigel were using as boundaries and what we look for in a red flag for potential abusive behaviour, and he moved the meaning round so many times it became infuriating.

So, I'm going to lay it out there, one time only.  If a guy we go home with commits a sexual assault on us, it's going to be a difficult. We may be accused of lying, leading someone on, and a myriad blanket of other slut-shaming or victim blaming bullshit. WE MAY EVEN SECOND GUESS OURSELVES to the point our boundaries have become so completely blurred and shot that it's impossible to know which way is up, leading to more personal head fuckery later down the line.

If we are concious, and aware of our boundaries and what constitutes a red flag, and someone pushes past them, however small, and we decide that we no longer want to interact with them, we may be missing out on interacting with someone who is awkward or clueless socially but ultimately harmless, or it could go in the opposite direction and the guy could equally be signalling that he's an asshole that doesn't give a flying crap about our safety or our well being.

To avoid the latter, we also push away the former, because the world at large will blame US if we get assaulted, not the perp.

The fact that Blackfoot has identified as a feminist makes me angry, as he doesn't seem to have done any of the basic required reading that I have done, and I've only been identifying as a feminist for about 5 months. The fact I am out of work and have a hell of a lot of time on my hands to do research may have accelerated my progress some, but seriously, dude, seriously, off to Feminism 101 for you.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Just to reiterate:

Boundaries exist because, as humans, we need them. Challenging/criticizing/trying to make me or any other female doubt our boundaries is NOT OKAY.

CRITICISING OR ATTEMPTING TO MAKE SOMEONE DOUBT THEMSELVES WHEN TRYING TO ENFORCE THEIR BOUNDARIES IS A DOUCHEBAG MOVE.

Not only is it not OK, not only is it a douchebag move, but in psychology it's a classic red flag for identifying a person with a high likelihood of being emotionally or physically abusive. It particularly tends to show up in conjunction with certain personality disorders.
/
Blackfoot can rationalize it all he wants, but it is what it is, regardless of what he wishes he could call it.

Not wanting to fuck somebody doesn't mean I won't hang out and talk. I mean, I would hope that sex isn't the only way people can be entertained by me.

Once ANY kind of boundary-pushing takes place, though, I'm DONE. Because, as you say, it's the prime indicator of an abuser, control freak, and/or narcissist. No more conversation, I'm warning all the other women I know, and don't come knocking on my door or I'll get the cops.

[Pope Lecherous]

He's not going to read it, Pixie. He's not open to information that might conflict with the behavior and techniques he has already concluded are acceptable.

I have read the article.  I keep all of this in mind when i approach people.  Part of getting to know people is determining how safe they are.

When you approach me, I will begin to evaluate the possibility you will do me harm. That possibility is never 0%

^^Obviously true statement.  What does this mean to me?  It means that i get to know people and make them feel comfortable with me.  This is where the discussion about boundaries comes into play.  When you meet someone you set up impromptu barriers or have a set of barriers already in place for strangers.  Obviously you have different boundaries for strangers than you do close acquaintances or lovers.  People sometimes need time to feel safe on their own, you can also show them.  This is the equivalent being wary of petting some random dog you've never encountered.  A dog standing there, or a dog nuzzling your leg... if you choose to pet the latter and he bites you.  I guess you made a poor judgement and you will have paid for it.  Showing you are not scary is person or dangerous is easy.  It doesn't happen when you act like the guys the author cited.  This is THE primary barrier between living creatures.  There's nothing wrong with defeating this by demonstrating you are not a threat.  I always afford the person the opportunity to see that i am not a danger and likewise I don't want to be bit by someone who feels like they have been backed into a corner.

So if you speak to a woman who is otherwise occupied, you're sending a subtle message. It is that your desire to interact trumps her right to be left alone.

A distinction has to be made here.  Do you speak to someone who's on the phone or "otherwise" occupied?  I don't.  Do you engage people socially in a social situation such as a party, club, or dinner party?   The typical expectation in this environment is that someone may attempt to engage you socially, unlike her subway example where the environment causes people to become vigilant or hyper-vigilant AND there is no reasonable expectation to be engaged socially.  In a lonely subway car I may let someone know that they've dropped something, but otherwise I wouldn't try to "pick someone up" in an environment like this.  It's nonsensical to assume somebody would unless they have no grasp at all of others' feelings and their environment.  Besides, in a subway i'm too focused on potential threats to be trying to bed someone.  In a club my mindset is different as would be a female's, but danger is ever present and i'm aware of this.  A girl (or man) can run off screaming if you try to approach them in a club, but i think even you guys can admit that's not a normal reaction.

If you pursue a conversation when she's tried to cut it off, you send a message. It is that your desire to speak trumps her right to be left alone.

^^This is the very next sentence following the previous quote.  It is at this point her statement becomes 100% true, at least for me.

The rest of the article is gold.  No man could be successful with any PERSON much less a woman if he were unable to realize this unless, you know... he's a rapist.  The author has already conceded that i'm not. I wish you'd afford me this same courtesy, but i do realize that all men are, after all Schrödinger's Rapist.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Sociopath, or possibly NPD.

Both, IMHO.

[Freeky]

During my last OKC hopefulness, I exchanged numbers with this guy. It was also during the time I was taking sleeping pills that made me sleep text.

One night, he texted me after I had taken those pills, and I talked fir a while, but explained I had to stop talking because my meds made me sleep text, and normally I would talk anyway but I had to take an obscene amount just to get to sleep, and I would end up coming off like a psycho douche bitch, and his response was "it's your call your the one who overmedicated ".

I stopped replying after that, ever.

[Pope Lecherous]

Challenge my boundaries and see what happens.
Usually involves my dogs, flying chairs, or the cops. Whatever's handy.

I wouldn't go directly for your boundaries.  I'd get a great idea of what they are just by talking to you.  I'd probably challenge those ideas to get a better map of what ideas you believe AND what values you hold/prize.  By this point if i haven't disqualified you as a friend, i'd see if you hold the kind of values that would make an ideal sexual partner.  If you haven't disqualified yourself thus far AND i think you're attractive AND the mood's right i just might make a move on you. Or maybe not.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

This is the equivalent being wary of petting some random dog you've never encountered.

What was that Nigel said earlier in the thread about PUA books getting their info from dog training manuals? 

HEH HEH...AH'M JES' PETTIN YEW ON THE ARM...YEW DON'T MIND, DO YEW? HEH HEH
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