Author Topic: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!  (Read 97819 times)

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #525 on: August 15, 2012, 08:08:29 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.

Hm, I've been on the run so I haven't read the whole thread.
I have this feeling about this word Cis, though. A though actually. And it's a bit rambly but essentially boils down to:

Yeah no.

Labels are inherently devisive.  I don't refer to Robert Jackson at work as "my Black coworker."  I don't refer to Anthony as "My Gay friend."  I don't refer to my doctor as "my male doctor/my female doctor".  The only time labels are important is when the label itself is relevant to the conversation, and FUCK ANYONE who says I don't get an opinion on elgatarianism unless I'm female or Gay, or that my opinion is of less value for that reason.



How do you view using race or sex as a way to differentiate among others in a group?

As in:

Person 1: Oh that's my friend best friend over there
Person 2: Which one?
Person 1: The black one
or
Person 1: The woman

I ask because to discern based on those characteristics is rather convenient but also divisive and to NOT do so is, also, in a sense, using the characteristic as a basis to NOT do so. Does that make sense?

Also, for whatever reason,  for Person 1 to say "The gay one" seems more wrong that the previous two...maybe.

Okay I think my brain just exploded....

If skin color or gender is being pointed out as a means of physical description, then I don't see a problem.  In fact, if that is in fact the best way to accomplish the description, then it is IMO just another form of discrimination to NOT use the appropriate term.

And another thing:  It's not just that I say FUCK YOU if my opinion is lessened by the fact that I am a male and "CIS", it's that EVERYONE, regardless of labels, should say FUCK YOU if their opinion is lessened by an entirely irrelevant issue, such as gender, race, or orientation, because if someone DOES that, then they are buying into exactly the same mindset that they think they're fighting.

In other words, I don't accept Signora Paesor's authority on the subject, and nobody should accept mine.

THINK FOR YOUR FUCKING SELF.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Pope Pixie Pickle

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #526 on: August 15, 2012, 08:16:15 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.

Hm, I've been on the run so I haven't read the whole thread.
I have this feeling about this word Cis, though. A though actually. And it's a bit rambly but essentially boils down to:

Yeah no.

Labels are inherently devisive.  I don't refer to Robert Jackson at work as "my Black coworker."  I don't refer to Anthony as "My Gay friend."  I don't refer to my doctor as "my male doctor/my female doctor".  The only time labels are important is when the label itself is relevant to the conversation, and FUCK ANYONE who says I don't get an opinion on elgatarianism unless I'm female or Gay, or that my opinion is of less value for that reason.



How do you view using race or sex as a way to differentiate among others in a group?

As in:

Person 1: Oh that's my friend best friend over there
Person 2: Which one?
Person 1: The black one
or
Person 1: The woman

I ask because to discern based on those characteristics is rather convenient but also divisive and to NOT do so is, also, in a sense, using the characteristic as a basis to NOT do so. Does that make sense?

Also, for whatever reason,  for Person 1 to say "The gay one" seems more wrong that the previous two...maybe.

Okay I think my brain just exploded....

Context is how a biped would do it. Describing your friend as the one with the slightly wider pinstipe in his blue tie when he's as black as the ace of spades is downright fucking retarded. It's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from exactly the kind of dumb fuck I strive to avoid.

haha this.

But if I have 2 Dave's ,one black and one white, with the same name in the room I'm totally going to refer to them as Dave and White Dave.   It may seem silly but it bucks the usual trend for these things, and I find that funny.

"YOU SAY CULTURAL MARXISM LIKE IT'S A BAD THING"

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #527 on: August 15, 2012, 08:22:20 pm »
My descriptions are as follows:

That Crazy Lady
The Big One
The One With The Cats
Mums
Mah Nigguh
The Gentlemen Who Smells of Limburger
That Guy Who Drinks Too Much
The Wannabe Irishman Who Was Actually Born In Pomona
and my baby is:
The One That Look Like Roger

Speaking of which, did you infiltrate Alabama recently?
I thought this is all there is,
but now I know you are so much more.
I want to upgrade from my simple eight bits,
but will you still love me when I'm sixty-four?
~MIAB~

Salty

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #528 on: August 15, 2012, 08:34:53 pm »
So, it can be said that identifying someone as a cis male is as accurate as saying, "that guy, no the black one."

That black guy who...what? Depends. Depends on what that guy is doing.

Is oppressed
Kills his own citizens
Works with homeless people
Lives a life much like any other
Doubles the number of predator drones

Theres only so much use you get from those kind of descriptions. Only when you have preconceived notions of that description does that differ.

The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #529 on: August 15, 2012, 08:37:36 pm »
So, it can be said that identifying someone as a cis male is as accurate as saying, "that guy, no the black one."

But how would you then say "no, the straight one"?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #530 on: August 15, 2012, 08:44:35 pm »
So, it can be said that identifying someone as a cis male is as accurate as saying, "that guy, no the black one."

But how would you then say "no, the straight one"?

Hah! Yes. I had that thought somewhere in my head. No, I did post it. Minds all a jumble. I asked about Beefy Gay Guys. How do you KNOW that a Cis male is straight.Cause he a giant sack of muscle working a drill? Hah! HAH! No one addressed it. :sad:

Because it he's gay he's more closely related to the struggle? Doesn't mean he's not ignorant. Or a mysoginist. Lots of gay men are mysoginists. So it's even less useful that I thought.
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #531 on: August 15, 2012, 08:49:45 pm »
So, it can be said that identifying someone as a cis male is as accurate as saying, "that guy, no the black one."

But how would you then say "no, the straight one"?

Hah! Yes. I had that thought somewhere in my head. No, I did post it. Minds all a jumble. I asked about Beefy Gay Guys. How do you KNOW that a Cis male is straight.Cause he a giant sack of muscle working a drill? Hah! HAH! No one addressed it. :sad:

Because it he's gay he's more closely related to the struggle? Doesn't mean he's not ignorant. Or a mysoginist. Lots of gay men are mysoginists. So it's even less useful that I thought.

It's everyone's fucking struggle.  Either everyone has equal rights, or nobody has any rights at all.  And when you label any group as less than equal, it's a really short hop to committing or allowing atrocities of one level or another to be committed on that group.  Matthew Shepard.  Tutsis vs Hutus.  Bosnians vs Serbs.  EVERYONE vs the Jews.  Rape being explained as "boys will be boys", or "it's not like she was a White woman, is it?" 

The politics of exclusion are often fatal for someone.  Hell, it's how we make teenagers into soldiers.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Juana

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #532 on: August 15, 2012, 08:52:36 pm »
Jesus. Like a million pages since I went to sleep last night. IMMA RESPOND.
If they're refusing to understand why the term "feminism" is important, I don't know if I want them as an ally. I don't know that they can be an ally, because they're denying that we experience discrimination and say "what about me?"instead. *cue cis man tears*

If you're willing to turn away allies and swing-votes cos you're not sure if they're good enough to stand beside you then, tactically, I'm pretty sure your cause is as good as fucked. It's not about everybody getting it. Statistically, most people are idiots, they'll never get anything. They're either part of the solution or part of the problem. If you're perfectly happy to leave them as part of the problem or (even worse) make them part of the problem that they weren't to begin with by alienating them because they don't live up to some unrealistic ideal then what the fuck are you doing to solve the problem? Strikes me you're actually making it worse.

Amusing as I find that whole concept, it is kinda a shame.

Here's a suggestion - drop the whole condescending notion of "if you've never been a woman you can't possibly understand..."

1 - it alienates guys who otherwise might support your cause

2 - it's actually complete bullshit. You have to go through something to experience it, yes but to understand? To empathise? Fuck no. I wasn't in Auschwitz but do I understand what happened and why it was wrong? Duh! The whole "you can't possibly understand, you're a man" thing is, quite frankly, offensive. When I, like a lot of men (and probably women too) feel offended by a particularly condescending bullshit statement, the person making it ceases to be a person and becomes a target. Not arguing the rights or wrongs of this, merely stating pragmatic fact with regards the overall mission objective. The way I see it, the end result is what's important, not that we get there by a virtuous and righteous crusade. Fight dirty, compromise some of your unrealistic principles. Accept help wherever you find it. Never look a gift horse in the mouth. You want equal rights or do you want an ideal world?

Fight smart and we'll win.
It's not condescending. Straight up, you can't. The closest you can get is parallel experiences (I don't know what it's like to be the Spicy Latina or the Dragon Lady or the Jezebel, but I do know about the extremely uncomfortable hypersexualization of bisexual women/females. It's dehumanizing and that's frightening) or little tastes of what we live every day (ECH's neighborhood rapist).

Empathy is not the same, exactly. It's got some distance to it. I empathize with the situation PoC have to live with. I have similar experiences (put me in a group of hostile men and I immediately and intensely fear for my safety). But I don't understand what it's like to be scared of being killed because of my skin color. It's not a sharp worry I have to live with everyday. You don't know what it's like to have to account for "what if?" in what you look like when you go out every night and being categorically scared of half the world's population because not doing so can be taking your life in your own hands. But you can and should empathize with it.

Here's the deal: feminism asks that men listen and change their behavior when it's insulting or condescending or degrading. It's really, really hard for men who are offended by the term feminism to be our allies because it turns into "what about meeeee?". It's like me telling a Black dude, "Hey, listen, I'm gonna let you finish telling me about how my automatic purse clutching when you walk by is offensive because it implies that you're a criminal, and I really want to help end your oppression, but first let me tell you that your feelings hurt my feelings and maybe we should stop using the term 'racist behavior' to explain the purse clutching."


You're really set on seeing my behavior when I ask that you think about your behavior and your words as a "righteous crusade". It's kind of ridiculous. Maybe you should think about that.
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Juana

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #533 on: August 15, 2012, 08:54:57 pm »
All we ask is that instead of kneejerking that you all just listen. Also feminists I know don't see gender difference as an essentialist/biological difference in the brain, rather as a social construct, so saying you "cannot change because penis" is usually fucking infuriating.  If people see gender differences as being hardwired, this totally causes a kneejerk in some people. If you add up unreliable books like Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars ect which have entered the Pop Science sphere in the last few decades, and into the popular conciousness and these essentialist ideas give the lie that men and women are almost a different fucking species as the justification for "and this is why there are inequalities".  Seeing the gender binary as a social construct, however usually means people have to think about societal memes and tropes as not being self evident truths.

Maybe people are refusing to listen because of the kneejerk? Maybe the kneejerk is caused by the way that they're being asked to listen? Maybe a more diplomatic tack might make them more inclined to lend an ear?

But you shouldn't have to be diplomatic, right? And this is more important than getting the message across?
Other than me telling you to stop with the cis man tears (which was the result of ten pages of frustration), we have been nothing but polite. Stop trying to police our tone and listen.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #534 on: August 15, 2012, 08:55:11 pm »
Quote
*cue CIS man tears*

Wow.  Didn't notice that.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #535 on: August 15, 2012, 08:56:15 pm »
That's pretty fucked up.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #536 on: August 15, 2012, 08:59:38 pm »
I CAN NAME THAT TUNE IN TWO NOTES!

It sounds sort of like "SHUT YOUR FAGGOT MOUTH".

Or "WHAT, ARE YOU ON THE RAG OR SOMETHING?"

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Salty

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #537 on: August 15, 2012, 09:00:11 pm »
Garbo, this whole cis man tears thing is retarded. That's got nothing to do with communication and everyuing to do with catagorizing people that is, in the end, always harmful. I am certainly not trying to police anyones tone. But that doesn't make it not stupid.

What Roger said.

I'm actually kind of shocked.
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #538 on: August 15, 2012, 09:00:31 pm »
Garbo, this whole cis man tears thing is retarded. That's got nothing to do with communication and everyuing to do with catagorizing people that is, in the end, always harmful. I am certainly not trying to police anyones tone. But that doesn't make it not stupid.

What Roger said.

I'm actually kind of shocked.

STOP TRYING TO POLICE THEIR TONE!

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #539 on: August 15, 2012, 09:01:57 pm »
I feel like I just watched Martin Luther King tell a Jewish joke.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.