How many people think men and women would think the same if not for culture?

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

as how genes express themselves and how the brain forms changes based on the environment, then sex differences in the brain (hotly contested area, btw) seem from what I have read, to actually not be a major hardwired-from-the-factory  thing at all.

Tarod, I'd recommend Delusions Of Gender by Cordelia Fine. She has some interesting things to say about how culture influences the science behind trying to see if there are sex differences between the brain, and there is also this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3176412/ that states brains are intersex and not exactly gendered at all.


As for gender and brains (I'm taking gender to be different from the biological sex) and this is anecdote, one of my MtF friends had their estrogen vs testosterone levels checked and her t was very low.

Androgen imbalance; EFO, who identifies as agender, also has an androgen imbalance. In her case she decided to treat it, partly because she also has very heavy periods and the treatment helps with that.

FTR the treatment has also helped with her depression.

Also FTR, I have a hypothesis that one or more of our environmental pollutants is an androgen disruptor and that we will see more and more such disorders along with a decrease in male fertility.

That reminded me of all those warnings in the 90's to throw out old plastic containers used for food and drinks, lest they give your sons hormone problems. Turns out those were endocrine disruptors, though. http://e.hormone.tulane.edu/learning/wildlife-effects.html

Either way, it doesn't look good for the future.

[Ben Shapiro]

Thanks for the info.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

as how genes express themselves and how the brain forms changes based on the environment, then sex differences in the brain (hotly contested area, btw) seem from what I have read, to actually not be a major hardwired-from-the-factory  thing at all.

Tarod, I'd recommend Delusions Of Gender by Cordelia Fine. She has some interesting things to say about how culture influences the science behind trying to see if there are sex differences between the brain, and there is also this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3176412/ that states brains are intersex and not exactly gendered at all.


As for gender and brains (I'm taking gender to be different from the biological sex) and this is anecdote, one of my MtF friends had their estrogen vs testosterone levels checked and her t was very low.

Androgen imbalance; EFO, who identifies as agender, also has an androgen imbalance. In her case she decided to treat it, partly because she also has very heavy periods and the treatment helps with that.

FTR the treatment has also helped with her depression.

Also FTR, I have a hypothesis that one or more of our environmental pollutants is an androgen disruptor and that we will see more and more such disorders along with a decrease in male fertility.

That reminded me of all those warnings in the 90's to throw out old plastic containers used for food and drinks, lest they give your sons hormone problems. Turns out those were endocrine disruptors, though. http://e.hormone.tulane.edu/learning/wildlife-effects.html

Either way, it doesn't look good for the future.

Yeah, the awesome part is how all the chemicals that are endocrine disruptors were also part of their manufacturing process and also are byproducts of the manufacturing or decomposition process of a lot of other things, and now they are persistent parts of our environment that aren't going to break down anytime soon. Go industry!

[Chelagoras The Boulder]

Gender is thought to be a socially constructed concept these days, and attempts to raise a "gender-neutral" child haven't panned out. Boys generally get the message that they're supposed to use every toy like a gun and girls generally learn to play house. Short of tossing young boys and girls into remote pieces of wilderness, Hatchet-style, to see how they develop without the influence of society, i don't think we can properly control for social expectations. Heck, even if we could, the fact that it's so hard to do may be evidence that we like knowing what our social expectations are, even if we don't necessarily follow them.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Gender is thought to be a socially constructed concept these days, and attempts to raise a "gender-neutral" child haven't panned out. Boys generally get the message that they're supposed to use every toy like a gun and girls generally learn to play house. Short of tossing young boys and girls into remote pieces of wilderness, Hatchet-style, to see how they develop without the influence of society, i don't think we can properly control for social expectations. Heck, even if we could, the fact that it's so hard to do may be evidence that we like knowing what our social expectations are, even if we don't necessarily follow them.

Balls.  I don't think it's a social construct.  I do think it is too rigid, though.  No provisions are made for children (or, hell, adults) that do not fit precisely into one role or another.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Gender is thought to be a socially constructed concept these days, and attempts to raise a "gender-neutral" child haven't panned out. Boys generally get the message that they're supposed to use every toy like a gun and girls generally learn to play house. Short of tossing young boys and girls into remote pieces of wilderness, Hatchet-style, to see how they develop without the influence of society, i don't think we can properly control for social expectations. Heck, even if we could, the fact that it's so hard to do may be evidence that we like knowing what our social expectations are, even if we don't necessarily follow them.

Balls.  I don't think it's a social construct.  I do think it is too rigid, though.  No provisions are made for children (or, hell, adults) that do not fit precisely into one role or another.

I think "boys are this and girls are this" is a construct. Boys and girls may tend towards certain traits in general, but the differences between individuals are much larger than between genders. I have yet to meet a kid that's "100%" feminine or masculine, most of them fall generally on one side when it comes to a lot of stuff, but will be neutral or over on the other side in a couple other things. Boys who like trucks, yelling, soccer and wearing necklaces; girls who like pretty dresses, brushing their hair, cute animals and power tools.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Gender is thought to be a socially constructed concept these days, and attempts to raise a "gender-neutral" child haven't panned out. Boys generally get the message that they're supposed to use every toy like a gun and girls generally learn to play house. Short of tossing young boys and girls into remote pieces of wilderness, Hatchet-style, to see how they develop without the influence of society, i don't think we can properly control for social expectations. Heck, even if we could, the fact that it's so hard to do may be evidence that we like knowing what our social expectations are, even if we don't necessarily follow them.

Balls.  I don't think it's a social construct.  I do think it is too rigid, though.  No provisions are made for children (or, hell, adults) that do not fit precisely into one role or another.

I think "boys are this and girls are this" is a construct. Boys and girls may tend towards certain traits in general, but the differences between individuals are much larger than between genders. I have yet to meet a kid that's "100%" feminine or masculine, most of them fall generally on one side when it comes to a lot of stuff, but will be neutral or over on the other side in a couple other things. Boys who like trucks, yelling, soccer and wearing necklaces; girls who like pretty dresses, brushing their hair, cute animals and power tools.

Depends what you consider to be our default state, I suppose.  I am trying and failing to think of a culture that hasn't got clearly defined gender roles, though some of them are far stricter than others.  Also, those gender roles are more or less identical from one culture to another (though correlation does not imply causation, of course).

I think the gender roles are based on primate behavior...Which is the best reason I can think of for weakening them.  It may have worked for primitive humans, but we (supposedly) aren't primitive anymore.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Gender is thought to be a socially constructed concept these days, and attempts to raise a "gender-neutral" child haven't panned out. Boys generally get the message that they're supposed to use every toy like a gun and girls generally learn to play house. Short of tossing young boys and girls into remote pieces of wilderness, Hatchet-style, to see how they develop without the influence of society, i don't think we can properly control for social expectations. Heck, even if we could, the fact that it's so hard to do may be evidence that we like knowing what our social expectations are, even if we don't necessarily follow them.

Balls.  I don't think it's a social construct.  I do think it is too rigid, though.  No provisions are made for children (or, hell, adults) that do not fit precisely into one role or another.

Of course it's a social construct, as is demonstrated by the fact that different cultures have different gender roles. Sex is real, gender is an invention. In one society women own the property and work the farmland, in another women hunt and men stay home with the children. In one women make themselves pretty with paint and colored fabric and shiny decorations, in another men do.

Gender is an invention, and we have designed it to be binary in response to the idea of binary sexes, but there's no particular reason for it to be binary, and also no particular reason for it to be linked to sex.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Gender is thought to be a socially constructed concept these days, and attempts to raise a "gender-neutral" child haven't panned out. Boys generally get the message that they're supposed to use every toy like a gun and girls generally learn to play house. Short of tossing young boys and girls into remote pieces of wilderness, Hatchet-style, to see how they develop without the influence of society, i don't think we can properly control for social expectations. Heck, even if we could, the fact that it's so hard to do may be evidence that we like knowing what our social expectations are, even if we don't necessarily follow them.

Balls.  I don't think it's a social construct.  I do think it is too rigid, though.  No provisions are made for children (or, hell, adults) that do not fit precisely into one role or another.

I think "boys are this and girls are this" is a construct. Boys and girls may tend towards certain traits in general, but the differences between individuals are much larger than between genders. I have yet to meet a kid that's "100%" feminine or masculine, most of them fall generally on one side when it comes to a lot of stuff, but will be neutral or over on the other side in a couple other things. Boys who like trucks, yelling, soccer and wearing necklaces; girls who like pretty dresses, brushing their hair, cute animals and power tools.

Depends what you consider to be our default state, I suppose.  I am trying and failing to think of a culture that hasn't got clearly defined gender roles, though some of them are far stricter than others.  Also, those gender roles are more or less identical from one culture to another (though correlation does not imply causation, of course).

I think the gender roles are based on primate behavior...Which is the best reason I can think of for weakening them.  It may have worked for primitive humans, but we (supposedly) aren't primitive anymore.

Which primates?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Gender is thought to be a socially constructed concept these days, and attempts to raise a "gender-neutral" child haven't panned out. Boys generally get the message that they're supposed to use every toy like a gun and girls generally learn to play house. Short of tossing young boys and girls into remote pieces of wilderness, Hatchet-style, to see how they develop without the influence of society, i don't think we can properly control for social expectations. Heck, even if we could, the fact that it's so hard to do may be evidence that we like knowing what our social expectations are, even if we don't necessarily follow them.

Balls.  I don't think it's a social construct.  I do think it is too rigid, though.  No provisions are made for children (or, hell, adults) that do not fit precisely into one role or another.

I think "boys are this and girls are this" is a construct. Boys and girls may tend towards certain traits in general, but the differences between individuals are much larger than between genders. I have yet to meet a kid that's "100%" feminine or masculine, most of them fall generally on one side when it comes to a lot of stuff, but will be neutral or over on the other side in a couple other things. Boys who like trucks, yelling, soccer and wearing necklaces; girls who like pretty dresses, brushing their hair, cute animals and power tools.

Depends what you consider to be our default state, I suppose.  I am trying and failing to think of a culture that hasn't got clearly defined gender roles, though some of them are far stricter than others.  Also, those gender roles are more or less identical from one culture to another (though correlation does not imply causation, of course).

I think the gender roles are based on primate behavior...Which is the best reason I can think of for weakening them.  It may have worked for primitive humans, but we (supposedly) aren't primitive anymore.

Which primates?

The ones that spent 2,000,000 years killing things with blunt objects.   

As I said, correlation does not equal causation.  I have NO idea if gender roles were "natural" for early humans and early to middle civilization.  Hence the "I think".

I will of course welcome the input of people that know what they're talking about (ie, not me).

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Of course it's a social construct, as is demonstrated by the fact that different cultures have different gender roles. Sex is real, gender is an invention. In one society women own the property and work the farmland, in another women hunt and men stay home with the children. In one women make themselves pretty with paint and colored fabric and shiny decorations, in another men do.

Gender is an invention, and we have designed it to be binary in response to the idea of binary sexes, but there's no particular reason for it to be binary, and also no particular reason for it to be linked to sex.

The bolded part is about halfway into my skull.  I realize it when it is pointed out, but I don't yet think of it that way without being prompted.

Cancel everything I said in this thread.   

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Of course it's a social construct, as is demonstrated by the fact that different cultures have different gender roles. Sex is real, gender is an invention. In one society women own the property and work the farmland, in another women hunt and men stay home with the children. In one women make themselves pretty with paint and colored fabric and shiny decorations, in another men do.

Gender is an invention, and we have designed it to be binary in response to the idea of binary sexes, but there's no particular reason for it to be binary, and also no particular reason for it to be linked to sex.

The bolded part is about halfway into my skull.  I realize it when it is pointed out, but I don't yet think of it that way without being prompted.

Cancel everything I said in this thread.   

It is really not an easy concept, to be fair, especially when we've been raised our entire lives to assume gender is real and immutable.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Of course it's a social construct, as is demonstrated by the fact that different cultures have different gender roles. Sex is real, gender is an invention. In one society women own the property and work the farmland, in another women hunt and men stay home with the children. In one women make themselves pretty with paint and colored fabric and shiny decorations, in another men do.

Gender is an invention, and we have designed it to be binary in response to the idea of binary sexes, but there's no particular reason for it to be binary, and also no particular reason for it to be linked to sex.

The bolded part is about halfway into my skull.  I realize it when it is pointed out, but I don't yet think of it that way without being prompted.

Cancel everything I said in this thread.   

It is really not an easy concept, to be fair, especially when we've been raised our entire lives to assume gender is real and immutable.

Well, yes, but while I am not stupid, I am a little dense, and I have to learn things a whole bunch of times.

I understand this can be frustrating for those around me.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I get it; I'm a slow processer myself. I'm smart, I'm just not quick.

[tarod]

I wonder if lions would still form prides if they weren't raised by other lions.