Author Topic: Stop demonizing medication.  (Read 6403 times)

chaotic neutral observer

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #75 on: October 14, 2020, 10:09:53 pm »
I'm replying to your post before you edited it.  Seriously, stop that.

Those quack remedies are being used to treat life-threatening illnesses, and people have died as a result.

Do you see why lending that type of pseudoscience legitimacy, even if it's only to call it "harmless" might be a problem?

No, because those people are just dumb
Seriously, if someone has been convinced that homeopathy is equivalent to modern medical care, and they die because they don't get treatment, you would call them "dumb"?

I would say they were the victim of fraud.

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and they see bad homeopaths,
How do you tell the difference between a good homeopath and a bad one?

At least with a medical doctor, I can assume that they've gone through a pretty intensive education, and if they screw up badly enough, they'll hopefully lose their license to practice.

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there should be more homeopaths like the one my FIL goes to mentioned above who are more honest with their patients  about what it can potentially do and when to say “fuck that” and pursue actual modern medical treatment.
Relying on the placebo effect in lieu of actual treatment is inherently dishonest.  There is no such thing as an honest homeopath.
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The Johnny

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2020, 10:22:28 pm »

I wanna reply when im finished with some things in a couple hours, but i wanted to chip in and say that editing posts is kind of cancerous, but whatever.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

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Fomalhaut

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2020, 10:27:49 pm »

I wanna reply when im finished with some things in a couple hours, but i wanted to chip in and say that editing posts is kind of cancerous, but whatever.

I do it to add thoughts, fix, and clarify, but there’s no way to go back and see my edit history as I can tell, so I’ll stop that habit.

Fomalhaut

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2020, 10:30:51 pm »
I'm replying to your post before you edited it.  Seriously, stop that.

Those quack remedies are being used to treat life-threatening illnesses, and people have died as a result.

Do you see why lending that type of pseudoscience legitimacy, even if it's only to call it "harmless" might be a problem?

No, because those people are just dumb
Seriously, if someone has been convinced that homeopathy is equivalent to modern medical care, and they die because they don't get treatment, you would call them "dumb"?

I would say they were the victim of fraud.

Quote
and they see bad homeopaths,
How do you tell the difference between a good homeopath and a bad one?

At least with a medical doctor, I can assume that they've gone through a pretty intensive education, and if they screw up badly enough, they'll hopefully lose their license to practice.

Quote
there should be more homeopaths like the one my FIL goes to mentioned above who are more honest with their patients  about what it can potentially do and when to say “fuck that” and pursue actual modern medical treatment.
Relying on the placebo effect in lieu of actual treatment is inherently dishonest.  There is no such thing as an honest homeopath.

All of your comments are ignoring the fact that I already clarified that the particular homeopath I’m familiar with is ALSO a regular medical doctor, so that would answer all of these questions. The only thing close to a “good” one would be both, and wisely and honestly discern for their patients whether or not Placebo could potentially help them in place of chemical or invasive treatment.

The Johnny

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2020, 10:33:39 pm »
I personally abuse the "preview" function in the posting interface, works wonders to review the formatting and re-reading oneself before posting.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

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Fomalhaut

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #80 on: October 14, 2020, 11:19:03 pm »
The other point that was either ignored or I didn’t make well was that, since these people are being rendered victims of fraud due to the lack of legitimacy, another way to look at it would be to lend it more legitimacy so that there are more doctors who are BOTH regular medical doctors and certified in Homeopathy, therefore there will be more “good homeopaths” around.

I know it’s mind-blowing, but they really do apparently exist.

If we have an issue from people killing themselves trying to do Homeopathy alone still in the 21st century, rather than further attack it, which alienates those people and made them seek their own alternative to begin with, we could stop some of the stigma and reformulate how we look at this. Maybe certify more regular doctors in it for the pursuit of further studying the Placebo Effect in a wise and ethical manner and better make  sure people aren’t killing themselves out of distrust for one system or another.

You don’t have to agree, I already said that I respect that you personally found my original comparison between Homeopathy  and Psychiatry non-apt. Don’t even really know where this is going anymore beyond cyclical arguing intended to get me to ultimately say you’re right about everything and I’m not.

Is that what you want?

Dude, you’re right. I see the light. I have been talking foolish, and whole science of Psychiatry is totally legitimate. It’s not at all even comparable to a pseudoscience. Imma start shitting all over anybody who thinks it might be, too, now. I love this Cult!

chaotic neutral observer

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2020, 11:25:34 pm »
All of your comments are ignoring the fact that I already clarified that the particular homeopath I’m familiar with is ALSO a regular medical doctor, so that would answer all of these questions.

The existence of a homeopath who happens to have an MD doesn't obviate my questions, nor does it address my comments.  Let's review.


No, because those people are just dumb
Seriously, if someone has been convinced that homeopathy is equivalent to modern medical care, and they die because they don't get treatment, you would call them "dumb"?
Someone sees that there are MDs who are also "trained" in homeopathy, and assumes this means homeopathy is legitimate.  They go and visit a non-MD homeopath (why not? they're both certified by the homeopathy board), instead of getting real treatment, and they die.

Is this person dumb for dying just because they didn't get the memo that homeopathy is entirely useless?


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there should be more homeopaths like the one my FIL goes to mentioned above who are more honest with their patients  about what it can potentially do and when to say “fuck that” and pursue actual modern medical treatment.
Relying on the placebo effect in lieu of actual treatment is inherently dishonest.  There is no such thing as an honest homeopath.
If an MD is prescribing homeopathy, a treatment that claims to have curative properties, but has none, then that MD is acting unethically.  A non-MD homeopath may, in fact, even believe in the treatment, but an MD is in the position of either believing in it (which indicates incompetence) or not believing in it, and falsely representing it to the patient (dishonesty).  An MD who only prescribes homeopathy for minor ailments may be doing no direct harm, but legitimizing fake cures is harmful at a systemic level.

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The only thing close to a “good” one would be both, and wisely and honestly discern for their patients whether or not Placebo could potentially help them in place of chemical or invasive treatment.
As I implied above, an MD who prescribes homeopathy is either incompetent or a fraud.  If you want to invoke the placebo effect, homeopathy is just about the worst possible option, since it's based on a lie.  Tell the patient to eat more apples, or pomegranates, or whatever, and tell them it will improve their general health, and their minor condition should clear up in a week or so.
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chaotic neutral observer

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2020, 11:37:03 pm »
The other point that was either ignored or I didn’t make well was that, since these people are being rendered victims of fraud due to the lack of legitimacy, another way to look at it would be to lend it more legitimacy so that there are more doctors who are BOTH regular medical doctors and certified in Homeopathy, therefore there will be more “good homeopaths” around.
No competent, ethical MD would touch that garbage.  There is no benefit to legitimatizing homeopathy.

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I know it’s mind-blowing, but they really do apparently exist.
It's not mind-blowing.  I was wondering if it was possible for a homeopath to lose their license, and the first thing google showed me was an MD that lost their medical license for practicing homeopathy.  https://quackwatch.org/homeopathy/reg/metzler/

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If we have an issue from people killing themselves trying to do Homeopathy alone still in the 21st century, rather than further attack it, which alienates those people and made them seek their own alternative to begin with, we could stop some of the stigma and reformulate how we look at this.
I hadn't heard that people were killing themselves with self-service homeopathy.  I mean, how would you even do that?  Water overdose?

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Maybe certify more regular doctors in it for the pursuit of further studying the Placebo Effect in a wise and ethical manner and better make  sure people aren’t killing themselves out of distrust for one system or another.
How is wasting an MDs time certifying in quackery useful?  They've got enough real continuing education to deal with.

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You don’t have to agree, I already said that I respect that you personally found my original comparison between Homeopathy  and Psychiatry non-apt. Don’t even really know where this is going anymore beyond cyclical arguing intended to get me to ultimately say you’re right about everything and I’m not.

Is that what you want?
No.  It's not enough for you to say I'm right.  You have to show evidence of thought.

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Dude, you’re right. I see the light. I have been talking foolish, and whole science of Psychiatry is totally legitimate.
I haven't made that claim.  If you are seriously making that claim, I'll attack that, too.
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Fomalhaut

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2020, 11:38:17 pm »
I better love this cult too, “God” knows it’s brought me enough financial ruin and social alienation that I’m much better off loving it than questioning it.

Sorry, gotta get to my mental health meeting, it’s the only kind of in-person social interaction I have anymore since my fall from “normal” to  “boxed and labeled, subhuman failure” in our increasingly homogenous society.

At least my meds keep me from feeling the real brunt of the pain from it all.

My apologies again for even deigning to have thoughts that did not fit The Holy Narrative.

Fomalhaut

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2020, 11:43:24 pm »
You right, the Placebo Effect is horrible and dangerous, why would we ever want to figure out why it works or how to harness it? Man, forgive me, I’m just so stupid and crazy. What I was thinking coming in here and bothering you nice, enlightened folks with all this shit.

Fomalhaut

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2020, 11:46:37 pm »
*What was I thinking. See, I’m so stupid and crazy that I mistype stuff sometimes. Which is why I was editing my posts, I should have just kept them there so you guys could rightfully judge me as the idiot I am for not having perfectly on-point grammar and cognitive ability despite all these psych meds.

chaotic neutral observer

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2020, 11:49:06 pm »
You right, the Placebo Effect is horrible and dangerous, why would we ever want to figure out why it works or how to harness it?
I didn't say the placebo effect was dangerous.  If you actually read my second-to-last post, I suggested a mechanism by which it could (maybe) be invoked beneficially.  I'm not sure why you might think that homeopathic treatments have a monopoly on the placebo effect.

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Man, forgive me, I’m just so stupid and crazy. What I was thinking coming in here and bothering you nice, enlightened folks with all this shit.
No worries, this is the most fun I've had here all week.
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chaotic neutral observer

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #87 on: October 14, 2020, 11:50:20 pm »
I personally abuse the "preview" function in the posting interface, works wonders to review the formatting and re-reading oneself before posting.
Yeah, me too.
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Fomalhaut

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #88 on: October 14, 2020, 11:55:38 pm »
You right, the Placebo Effect is horrible and dangerous, why would we ever want to figure out why it works or how to harness it?
I didn't say the placebo effect was dangerous.  If you actually read my second-to-last post, I suggested a mechanism by which it could (maybe) be invoked beneficially.  I'm not sure why you might think that homeopathic treatments have a monopoly on the placebo effect.

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Man, forgive me, I’m just so stupid and crazy. What I was thinking coming in here and bothering you nice, enlightened folks with all this shit.
No worries, this is the most fun I've had here all week.

In actuality I really do have stuff to do, and I’m  too tired to read your posts anymore. Glad to hear that you had fun though! I found it fun too, even if you didn’t intend for me to.

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2020, 12:51:38 am »
Will just add though, I do agree that Homeopathy doesn’t have a monopoly on the Placebo Effect.

 Maybe I was making it sound like I thought that, but no, that’s just how I think it “works” if it ever does “work”.  But certainly, if people are hell bent on having Homeopathy thrown out entirely, they can go right ahead.

I don’t believe in the stuff to defend it that much, I’m just also not butthurt that people have healed themselves with it via Placebo Effect enough to shit all over them and their perceived experience because their experience doesn’t match what I think to be true and possible. People accidentally kill themselves all the time doing dumb shit, including taking other people’s pharmaceutical drugs. Doctors kill people all the time making medical mistakes. I hope someday we can eradicate all avoidable deaths. If phasing out the practice of Homeopathy is a step in that direction because more people are convinced it does more harm than good, then fine by me.

Using it to potentially study The Placebo Effect in non-life threatening circumstances  was just the only possible reason I could come up with on the fly to not throw it out entirely.