Author Topic: Stop demonizing medication.  (Read 6385 times)

The Johnny

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2020, 01:02:13 am »
Regardless of my prediction that there will be sooner or later an "UNLIMITED" thread, here's what i think from what i read since my last post in this thread:

*CNO: im not much for "results oriented thinking", but im glad antidepressants benefitted you even if it was by random chance and sheer luck in the diagnosis... also, i do agree that making any kind of comparison between placebos and psychiatric medication is just silly... just because they are prescribed compulsively and without good reason, doesnt mean they dont have a real and objective effect on brain chemistry... the question of if your condition was purely organical or psychical could currently be irrelevant to you as a patient, but to me as a practitioner would be of interest, even if its already "cured", but i dont think either of us wants to get into that.

*Fomalhaut: ive dealt with psychiatric communities, and yeah, grand majority of them get obese and "sleepy" all the time due to the secondary effects of the medication... liver problems, i think sometimes diabetes and who knows what else... so indeed theres a problem with that, but its also true that as time passes, its getting better with less destructive side effects.

*In general:

-While psychiatry is a pseudoscience in its diagnosis, the medication they peddle in itself is a product of a very rigurous and scientific process with precise doses... medication is a precise tool which unfortunately gets wrongfully utilized.

-One problem with homeopathy, is that as far as im informed, the literal unregulated TRASH they peddle does not follow a precise and scientific manufacturing process, that is to say, the milligrams of substances present in a given dose of whatever, have extreme variance, thats some of the reasons people die from it.

-So besides the unregulated remedies of homeopathy, the issue of placebos is an entirely different subject, because a placebo is defined by having literally no active substances, and working purely by "suggestion" (or as sometimes its called "deception").

-The thing with suggestion is that it implies many more things than its generally thought of, and its the direct successor of hypnotic practice, and while CNO just sees it as fraudulent and unethical, i see it as something more than that.

(continued in next post, just in case my browser dies or refreshes for some random reason)
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The Johnny

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2020, 01:32:37 am »

As i was saying, placebo comes under the category of suggestion, which is the successor to hypnosis... is it fraudulent and unethical? Yes and no... this type of "cure" or "treatment" only exists because people DEMAND an organic explanation or medicational solution to their psychic problems.

"Doctor! I have this migraine, paralysis or twitch that I have seen over two dozen medical specialists and all of them cannot find a physiological reason for it! They tell me im in perfect health and that i must be either crazy or simulating! Since OBVIOUSLY im not crazy nor simulating, i will continue on my quest for the holy grail - which coincidentally i found with a homeopath!"

I have collegues that are medical doctors, and they have a certain subset of patients that are not exactly hypochondriacs, but similar to them, and they wont ever stop complaining about their imaginary illness... so these patients either accept a referral to psychotherapy, or get prescribed a placebo. That is to say, they either manage to accept they have a psychological problem, or get treated like children with a magical pill.

Now, the real problem with all suggestion based treatments, be it placebo pills, hypnosis and possibly DBT, is that the patient becomes dependant on the practitioner and submissive to its authority and judgement... they get "cured" for a couple of months, but they always come back, because their "physical illness" is just a displacement of their "mental illness".

But you see, there's people that either have zero capacity for introspection, or combatively refuse to have insight... for such cases is it such a crime to treat them with placebos if thats what they so desperately desire?
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Fomalhaut

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2020, 02:01:01 am »
I like your posts, Johnny. Theyíre very insightful. I like CNOís posts too, they made me think more about stuff. Sorry if neither of you guys like my posts. I really was only slightly kidding when I said meds have made my cognitive abilities worse, but I actually am diagnosed a flavor of  ďcrazyĒ and need the real, psychoactive ones.

Editing ONLY to add: also have a slowly healing TBI, it can make conversations even in real life hard, I have memory problems due to them, hence the constant adding of ideas I forgot to put, and my impulse control sometimes just isnít what it used to be (already not the best, being in my early 20ís) in regards to things like posting before previewing.

Personally donít see whatís so wrong and unethical about doctors using the ďmagical pillĒ for those patients.  Can ultimately see now why straight up having them use the Homeopathic version of a magical pill isnít necessary for that, and could do more harm than good rather than be totally neutral.

 I donít see how itís so harmfully unethical if it works for some, since a lot psych meds do have a lot of harmful side effects (excluding SSRIs alone), so if some peopleís issues can be fixed with Placebo, thatís neat for them. It reminds me of telling yourself a glass of milk will get you out of a bad acid trip and make your trip better, and it working, they just really want a doctor to give them the glass of milk and the milk to be a pill for some reason.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 03:37:24 am by Fomalhaut »

Fomalhaut

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2020, 02:57:14 am »
If people are considered by the children with their magical pills taking up medical time and resources, one thing they could try instead of plunging them into potentially harmful psychoactive drug treatment so long as they continue to not harm themselves or others, is attempt to teach them that thatís what theyíre doing, so they can then get out of their proverbial bad trips by themselves, using a glass of milk or whatever they want. If their belief that itís the pill is that troublesome.

In the event that they do anything harmful to themselves or others, we already have shit tons of mechanics to make sure people end up locked up against their will and force fed the psych meds. Happens all the time. Other people go in voluntarily all the time.

Just like Homeopathy doesnít have a monopoly on the Placebo Effect , Psychiatry doesnít have a (complete) monopoly on Mental Health, and I personally think thatís a good thing for now since most of the meds slowly kill people and plenty of people who believe in the ďmagic pillsĒ  arenít hurting anybody,  but other people are free to disagree with me, I donít care.

Fomalhaut

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2020, 02:57:52 am »
*concerned by the children with their magic pills, damnit.

chaotic neutral observer

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2020, 04:56:06 am »
*CNO: im not much for "results oriented thinking",[...]... the question of if your condition was purely organical or psychical could currently be irrelevant to you as a patient, but to me as a practitioner would be of interest, even if its already "cured", but i dont think either of us wants to get into that.
I suspect my issues are fundamentally organic, although of course I don't have conclusive evidence for this.  I would much prefer it if they had traced it down to a specific root cause, rather than simply giving my condition a label, and nodding sagely once the SSRIs cut in, but the mental health system has limited resources, and the science may simply not exist yet.

Quote
-One problem with homeopathy, is that as far as im informed, the literal unregulated TRASH they peddle does not follow a precise and scientific manufacturing process, that is to say, the milligrams of substances present in a given dose of whatever, have extreme variance, thats some of the reasons people die from it.

-So besides the unregulated remedies of homeopathy, the issue of placebos is an entirely different subject, because a placebo is defined by having literally no active substances, and working purely by "suggestion" (or as sometimes its called "deception").
As I understand it, homeopathic solutions are, by nature, diluted to the point where there is no (or almost no) active ingredient present, so I consider them to be effectively placebos, albeit coated with a very heavy layer of pseudoscience.


As i was saying, placebo comes under the category of suggestion, which is the successor to hypnosis... is it fraudulent and unethical? Yes and no... this type of "cure" or "treatment" only exists because people DEMAND an organic explanation or medicational solution to their psychic problems.

[...]

I have collegues that are medical doctors, and they have a certain subset of patients that are not exactly hypochondriacs, but similar to them, and they wont ever stop complaining about their imaginary illness... so these patients either accept a referral to psychotherapy, or get prescribed a placebo. That is to say, they either manage to accept they have a psychological problem, or get treated like children with a magical pill.
This seems like a grey area.  Presenting someone with fake cures for real problems (like homeopathy does), I obviously object to.  But, if someone isn't genuinely ill, and prescribing them a placebo alleviates the symptoms of their hypochondria...well, it's not an ideal solution, but I can't easily dismiss it as unethical.  It depends on the context.  There is a certain symmetry to treating fake ailments with fake medicines.
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Doktor Howl

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #96 on: October 15, 2020, 12:41:48 pm »
Homeopathy is just magical thinking.

If you're sick, that's dangerous.

That's all.
Information wants to be wrong.

The Johnny

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #97 on: October 15, 2020, 02:45:41 pm »
*CNO: im not much for "results oriented thinking",[...]... the question of if your condition was purely organical or psychical could currently be irrelevant to you as a patient, but to me as a practitioner would be of interest, even if its already "cured", but i dont think either of us wants to get into that.
I suspect my issues are fundamentally organic, although of course I don't have conclusive evidence for this.  I would much prefer it if they had traced it down to a specific root cause, rather than simply giving my condition a label, and nodding sagely once the SSRIs cut in, but the mental health system has limited resources, and the science may simply not exist yet.

Quote
-One problem with homeopathy, is that as far as im informed, the literal unregulated TRASH they peddle does not follow a precise and scientific manufacturing process, that is to say, the milligrams of substances present in a given dose of whatever, have extreme variance, thats some of the reasons people die from it.

-So besides the unregulated remedies of homeopathy, the issue of placebos is an entirely different subject, because a placebo is defined by having literally no active substances, and working purely by "suggestion" (or as sometimes its called "deception").
As I understand it, homeopathic solutions are, by nature, diluted to the point where there is no (or almost no) active ingredient present, so I consider them to be effectively placebos, albeit coated with a very heavy layer of pseudoscience.


As i was saying, placebo comes under the category of suggestion, which is the successor to hypnosis... is it fraudulent and unethical? Yes and no... this type of "cure" or "treatment" only exists because people DEMAND an organic explanation or medicational solution to their psychic problems.

[...]

I have collegues that are medical doctors, and they have a certain subset of patients that are not exactly hypochondriacs, but similar to them, and they wont ever stop complaining about their imaginary illness... so these patients either accept a referral to psychotherapy, or get prescribed a placebo. That is to say, they either manage to accept they have a psychological problem, or get treated like children with a magical pill.
This seems like a grey area.  Presenting someone with fake cures for real problems (like homeopathy does), I obviously object to.  But, if someone isn't genuinely ill, and prescribing them a placebo alleviates the symptoms of their hypochondria...well, it's not an ideal solution, but I can't easily dismiss it as unethical.  It depends on the context.  There is a certain symmetry to treating fake ailments with fake medicines.

Eh, i mean, Bach Flowers are the archetypical homeopathic treatment which is just brandy, water and ground up flowers, which is practically impossible to get harm from them... the problem is that some homeopaths wanna play "undeducated witch" and create herbal remedies with plants that actually have active ingredients, and since they dont have a strict manufacturing process, the dosage is always fucked... thats why i say that homeopaths peddle not only placebos. Maybe its a latin phenomena where homeopaths are also almost always part shaman-wannabes.

From my perspective theres no "fake ailments/illness", its just a matter of bad diagnosis: what you might call a "fake physiological illness" i would call it a "real mental illness"... that these people are dead set on getting their real mental illness treated thru physiological solutions, just speaks of their stubborness and the magnitude of their mental illness.

And well, so called "depression", hallucinations and a range of ailments with physiological manifestations are just symptoms for which the root cause can be wildly different... but a lot of people dont care about root causes and want to just get by and "hopefully it will go away eventually" or "this is good enough" attitude... a lot of people are stuck (or feel like they are) in bad life situations, and if they feel like theyre impossibly stuck then they just want remedies without rubbing their noses against something they cannot change... when people want to change their situation, and can do it, thats when introspection into inner conflict can be beneficial.

Dealing with trauma is a bit different, because thats like going to the gym - it takes actual emotional work to grind down the effect that those memories have on us, and well, a lot of people dont want to allocate resources on that or have different priorities.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Fomalhaut

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #98 on: October 15, 2020, 03:50:05 pm »
Im just gonna be annoying and make one more post in a different sort of vein :


If you are reading this thread and suffer from PTSD/Trauma (my flavor of crazy),  try looking into EFT. It feels silly to do at first but can help, works similarly to acupuncture without the needles (or so the people who developed it say, I donít personally know a lot about the science behind it, just am using it)

Also EMDR, if you can afford it or find a therapist that works on a sliding scale and need a therapistsí help working through some of the more intense shit.

And Iíve personally had some success with using NLP Trauma techniques (yeah, another thing thatís considered pseudoscience, Iím not a commercial for it, just tried some of their Trauma Healing mind tricks, and noticed it was helpful for me.)

ETA: OBVIOUSLY talk to your doctor or therapist before doing anything that you are concerned may make things worse, and donít get off of your SSRIs and sedatives without talking to them. They will probably be familiar with all those things, my doctor  wasnít even against the NLP despite its dodgy ďscientificĒ status, but did warn me  that itís not a gentle approach. The techniques Iíve tried basically amount to forcing your mind repeatedly to conjure up another memory when faced with triggering stimuli, so that the stimuli becomes associated with the new, happier memory rather than the old, intrusive, traumatic one.. It is difficult, and helps to have a buddy or actual NLP practitioner do it with you to ingrain the technique, but technically it can be done alone at home, for triggers that donít precede harmful behaviors but just bad feelings. I dont know, helped me to get over some triggers so far. You obviously have to know what your triggers are before trying it. Okay, I fucked up and edited again, so Iím gonna fuck off now.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 04:26:16 pm by Fomalhaut »

The Johnny

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #99 on: October 15, 2020, 05:18:13 pm »

That's just an attempt at displacing and repressing traumatic memories/representations without actually treating them, but Į\_(ツ)_/Į
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Fomalhaut

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #100 on: October 15, 2020, 05:28:25 pm »

That's just an attempt at displacing and repressing traumatic memories/representations without actually treating them, but Į\_(ツ)_/Į

Like  I said, Iíve just found it helpful for some tiggers. My doctor saw nothing wrong with it, and itís helped me to just live my life in a calmer fashion. Like not getting upset at seeing bloody violence on TV at other peopleís homes. I changed it from triggering a memory of  seeing real life bloody violence to reminding me of a different memory of just watching TV about something else. Who the fuck does that hurt? If people donít like it, no one will ever force them to do it. But some of us with issues just want to be able to live our lives more in peace for now and But I get it, every attempt to share something Iíve found personally helpful is stupid, I was stupid to join this forum, I will leave you all to your stuff that you do here.

You may think thereís a quick fix that every single person can do to automatically ďtreatĒ traumatic memories, but I have never met a doctor so far that thought that. Forgive me.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 05:33:03 pm by Fomalhaut »

chaotic neutral observer

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #101 on: October 15, 2020, 05:46:20 pm »
If you are reading this thread and suffer from PTSD/Trauma (my flavor of crazy),  try looking into EFT. It feels silly to do at first but can help, works similarly to acupuncture without the needles (or so the people who developed it say, I donít personally know a lot about the science behind it, just am using it)
Acupuncture is just as much nonsense as homeopathy.  The difference is that it's older (which gives it a veneer of respectability), and originates in the far-east (which makes it mystical).

It seems like you're doing a lot of things that are founded in woo.  Maybe they make you feel better temporarily, but are they actually fixing anything?
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The Johnny

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #102 on: October 15, 2020, 05:48:05 pm »
I never said a quick fix existed, but if were not being civil about it, by all means try to find a cure in pseudoscience, nobody cares.

And i mean, if you want us to just nod our heads without giving our own thoughts on the matter, i think you got the wrong place. This is not a "safe-space", some say "Discordia is not nice", so do whatever. Welcome to my ever growing ignore list.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Fomalhaut

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #103 on: October 15, 2020, 05:51:17 pm »
I realize Iíve embarrassed myself by trying to join in on this forum and hope that you all enjoyed being condescending intellectuals at a traumatized young womanís expense. Iím sorry that I try to keep an open mind and am open to things that help after years of pain and torment, and sorry that I try to be nonjudgmental and friendly after it all, so maybe I really donít fit in with Discordians. Sorry that I thought maybe Iíd be anything close to like minded with people here because of the dumb books Iíve read. Iím just lonely and want to be helpful and have intellectually stimulating conversations with people but I, obviously canít hack it with you guys.

Stupid me for trying. 

I wish all of you the best in life.

The Johnny

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Re: Stop demonizing medication.
« Reply #104 on: October 15, 2020, 05:52:59 pm »
Ah yes, and one more thing, who has the audacity of accussing others of suggesting "quick and easy fixes" when they think that tapping their forehead and thinking happy thoughts is a solution to ANYTHING.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner