Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Apple Talk => Topic started by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:01:36 am

Title: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:01:36 am
Quote
Okay, let's get one thing straight:  This ain't a rant.  It isn't a sermon.  It isn't your Holy Man™ dispensing mana from heaven in those big, heavy cans.  It is an invitation to discuss the future of this board in a manner which may or may not get results...By which I do not mean the admin style, etc, of the board, but the way in which we as members use it.  The following are my ideas and comments and ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN AS ADMIN WRIT, but rather my own personal opinion as a member.  Are we clear on that?  Good, good.  If the following makes your butt ache or causes any stern damage, take it up with me, do not assume that it is the admin group or board at large that has wounded your inner child.  And there WILL be some wounding, because there's been some shit that I've been wanting to say for a very long time.  Contrariwise, some of you may have something to say to me, and that's fine.  Lay it all out in the open, but don't be a big fucking pussy about it.  If it's on your ass, spew it.  That being said, here goes:

1.  PD is not your personal blog.  It is also not your fan club, your crying shoulder, or anything else like that.  Nor is it mine or anyone else's.  If you cannot find a way to make the insipid details of your personal life funny or interesting, perhaps you should consider posting it on facebook.  Seriously, when I log onto PD, I do not want to hear about the condition of your vagina, your school funding issues, your love life, or any of that shit unless you make it entertaining1.  I honestly don't give a shit, otherwise.  It's fucking annoying.  I come to PD for the weird and the challenging, not to be bushwhacked in 5 threads about your TMI bullshit.  Your life just isn't that interesting, and neither is mine.  MAKE it interesting, or go tell Zuckerberg's yahoos about it.  Or at least make a blog thread that is advertised as such, so that people who don't want to hear about your latest romantic disaster don't have to fucking look at your mess.  FFS.

2.  If you can't be arsed to comment meaningfully on other peoples' threads, don't cry when your thread gets nothing but mittens or a fast trip to page 5.  This is a two way street.  You post content, and you read other peoples' content.  Well, you don't have to do either, but the penalties for not doing so are sort of built in.  This does not mean that you have to post in every single new thread:  Some people can't be bothered with politics, etc, and that's fine.  But if you are here ONLY for people to read your shit, and that's it, resign yourself to being the next Sepia...A great writer who hardly anyone reads, because he isn't engaged at all with the board, other than to post his own work (and because - while his style is great - he's been writing basically the same thing for 8 years, which is one risk of not engaging...Feedback comes in conversations, not in mittens).

3.  On that note, emotes are not an acceptable substitute for conversation.  Mittens are not a reply, they are an indication that either the person didn't read the post (in which case, why answer?), or that the post didn't have anything that stood out (in which case you should say so).  We are NOT here to uncritically accept the work of our peers, but to comment, discuss, tear apart (if need be), etc, the work in question.  

4.  If you KNOW a subject will bring down a shitstorm and - knowing this - you post a thread about that subject, don't start fucking bitching when that shitstorm arrives.  And if you do, for fuck's sake don't be a passive-aggressive shitbag about it.  If you KNOW that a drug thread is going to spin out of control instantly, either don't post a thread that says "I'll just leave this here" as if you aren't going to engage, then engage, then get all fucking weepy about the results, flounce a dozen fucking times, and then forever after treat everyone on the board like they aren't real people, simply because your rectum burns.  Talking to you, RWHN, if it ain't obvious enough, but it goes for anyone else who starts a thread about a hot-button topic and then starts to settle at the stern when people do EXACTLY WHAT YOU EXPECTED THEM TO DO.  If you are willing to take the pounding and smile, by all means post the thread...But if not, don't be a big fucking nancy when the inevitable happens.  You fucking KNEW what was coming, so why the FUCK are you upset?

5.  We're getting stale.  In my own case, my rants and sermons have sounded much the same since about 2005, now that I look back on them, and the fiction angle was played out a year ago.  We've done some amazing fucking things here...Epic rants, WOMP, GASMs, Intermittens, BIP, etc.  But they've been done, and it's high time we came up with something new.  I don't mean WE CAN NEVER WOMP AGAIN, ARRRG or anything like that.  I mean that we need to find a new project, a new focus, something fresh that we can sink our teeth into.  We have some creative bastards here (Payne, Nigel, LMNO, and of course Cram, among others).  There must be something we can whip up.  Not asking for results THIS MINUTE - I don't want to force things - but we should all be thinking here and there about what to do next.  And then doing it without fanfare, to see if it catches on spontaneously.

6.  I do not expect people to like me.  Most people don't.  However, I am not necessarily always the bad guy, and if you insist that I am the default villain in every situation, I will happily jump up and down on you with cleats.  The days of my merciful and tolerant forbearance are gone.  That being said, I expect the same in return, and if I jump your shit and you don't like it much, you can either jump back, or PM me.  If it really bugs you, I can and will simply stop paying attention to you2, provided you do not take that as license to fuck with me.  I think pretty much everyone here should expect the same thing of each other.  If you CAN'T get along with someone, ignore them.  If you are shitting on someone and they PM you and ask you to stop, give it some serious thought.

7.  The past is the past.  There never fucking was a "classic age of PD", unless you count the fucking "cookies & pie, stabbity stabbity tequila faceraping bats" era.  PD has its highs and lows, and its feuds...However, there is nothing saying that a feud has to be permanent3.  Hell, if Fomentor came back today, I might not exactly welcome him with open arms, but I'm reasonably certain I wouldn't shit all over him.  It's been 2 years.  It's over.  While I am not exactly the forgiving kind, there is such a thing as too much baggage.  There is no need to dredge up old shit that can do nothing but smash any new shit that's coming along.

8.  Noobs.  What to do?  Easy.  If you want to push their buttons to see what they're made out of, go ahead.  If you want to be nice to them and see how THAT works out, go ahead.  But for fuck's sake, let them at least open their fucking mouths before you decide if they're Gandhi or Mussolini.  Talking to you, Phox, et al.  If you see a REASON to poop on them, go nuts.  If, however, they just said "Hi!", and you shit on them, they'll probably leave (Doing so in an over-the-top, joking manner is in my opinion okay, since if they have no sense of humor, this ain't for them) before they have a chance to engage.  I would.  ON THE OTHER HAND:  Nobody here is the official guardian of noobs.  If you feel a noob is being treated like shit, perhaps a PM to the offender might be in order before dispensing your disapproval.  There is very probably a reason for it, and if there isn't, you can always shit on the offender after learning this.  I value established members more than noobs, for the most part, and I'm almost always gonna side with the established members if shit goes sideways.  I am also gonna reserve a bucket of my finest poop for anyone who automatically decides that a new guy must be right and the old-timers must be wrong, because you WANT to believe that the new guy will be awesome, or dig your shit, or whatever.

9.  The board loading issues, search functions, etc.  This place hangs a dozen times a day, the page load time is outrageous, and half the time it times out.  Apparently, this only happens on the American side of the Atlantic, but it's gotten so fucking bad that I - the greatest PD junkie in its history - often leave for a weekend because I get really sick of timeouts and lost responses.  There has to be some solution for this...Trip & Faust, I've been asking around, and it's not just me.  Also, the search function thing...I know it's fucking bolluxed to hell and gone, but is there any way we can restore it or fix it?  

10.  It is my opinion that it's time to revise the banning rules.  Someone like infinity shock or DECI4 who is obviously only here to shit all over everything should not be given the ability to do so just so we can be all self-righteous about our policies as compared to theirs.  I am not in favor of being allowed to go all Mol on people because they made me all butthurt, but neither do I see any point in allowing a shitneck to derail the entire fucking boards so we can wank off to our own virtue.  I'm not proposing a specific policy here, just proposing that the current policy isn't working well.  It's also something that should be discussed by the board at large, not just the admins.

Or Kill Me.




1  Unfortunately, the only way you will know if it is entertaining is by noticing whether or not people give a shit.

2  Except Babylon Horuv.  He's on my shit list until the end of fucking time.

3  Unless you're Hugh or Lauren.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Pæs on December 20, 2011, 01:10:59 am
In response to 3: Why not do away with mittens entirely?

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.

8: Again not related to the main point, I think using PMs to clear up potential misunderstandings should be used more often, rather than immediately jumping on the most offensive interpretation of a post and derailing shit with arguments based on nothing.

10: Yes, fuck those guys. I am all for a revision of the banning rules.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 01:11:55 am
Quote
10.  It is my opinion that it's time to revise the banning rules.  Someone like infinity shock or DECI4 who is obviously only here to shit all over everything should not be given the ability to do so just so we can be all self-righteous about our policies as compared to theirs.  I am not in favor of being allowed to go all Mol on people because they made me all butthurt, but neither do I see any point in allowing a shitneck to derail the entire fucking boards so we can wank off to our own virtue.  I'm not proposing a specific policy here, just proposing that the current policy isn't working well.  It's also something that should be discussed by the board at large, not just the admins.

As far as this goes, I agree. It get's very distracting with people like this. You end up having to wade through so much shit that you end up throwing it or contributing to it. Like me and Phox going all Irish on them. Which was fun for us, but I'm pretty sure boring as all fuck for the rest of you (and I apologize for my part in that).
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 01:14:45 am

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.


I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 01:17:41 am
4.  If you KNOW a subject will bring down a shitstorm and - knowing this - you post a thread about that subject, don't start fucking bitching when that shitstorm arrives.  And if you do, for fuck's sake don't be a passive-aggressive shitbag about it.  If you KNOW that a drug thread is going to spin out of control instantly, either don't post a thread that says "I'll just leave this here" as if you aren't going to engage, then engage, then get all fucking weepy about the results, flounce a dozen fucking times, and then forever after treat everyone on the board like they aren't real people, simply because your rectum burns.  Talking to you, RWHN, if it ain't obvious enough, but it goes for anyone else who starts a thread about a hot-button topic and then starts to settle at the stern when people do EXACTLY WHAT YOU EXPECTED THEM TO DO.  If you are willing to take the pounding and smile, by all means post the thread...But if not, don't be a big fucking nancy when the inevitable happens.  You fucking KNEW what was coming, so why the FUCK are you upset?

DON'T POST ANYTHING WE (TGRR and Nigel) DON'T LIKE!!!!!

This is part of the cancer that is killing the place. 
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Pæs on December 20, 2011, 01:18:07 am

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.


I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.
I guess the actual complaint is closer to "I am sick of putting time into a WOMP and get two of these guys:  :lulz: out of it, so it feels like it's no longer worthwhile.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:18:13 am

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.


I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.

If you have fun doing them, do them.  Just don't do them because it's "tradition" or any shit like that.  I typically go 6 months without WOMPING, then dump a dozen at once.  Likewise, I may not stop ranting, but I am no longer going to rant because I feel its expected of me, etc (funny how you get weird delusions of grandeur, ain't it?).

And Paes, I agree:  The mittens emote needs to die a horrible fucking death.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:19:45 am
4.  If you KNOW a subject will bring down a shitstorm and - knowing this - you post a thread about that subject, don't start fucking bitching when that shitstorm arrives.  And if you do, for fuck's sake don't be a passive-aggressive shitbag about it.  If you KNOW that a drug thread is going to spin out of control instantly, either don't post a thread that says "I'll just leave this here" as if you aren't going to engage, then engage, then get all fucking weepy about the results, flounce a dozen fucking times, and then forever after treat everyone on the board like they aren't real people, simply because your rectum burns.  Talking to you, RWHN, if it ain't obvious enough, but it goes for anyone else who starts a thread about a hot-button topic and then starts to settle at the stern when people do EXACTLY WHAT YOU EXPECTED THEM TO DO.  If you are willing to take the pounding and smile, by all means post the thread...But if not, don't be a big fucking nancy when the inevitable happens.  You fucking KNEW what was coming, so why the FUCK are you upset?

DON'T POST ANYTHING WE (TGRR and Nigel) DON'T LIKE!!!!!

This is part of the cancer that is killing the place. 

That isn't what I said, you fucked up little pussy.  Grow the fuck up.

You are such a passive-aggressive little shitstain, RWHN.  You have been for at least 2 years.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 01:26:07 am
4.  If you KNOW a subject will bring down a shitstorm and - knowing this - you post a thread about that subject, don't start fucking bitching when that shitstorm arrives.  And if you do, for fuck's sake don't be a passive-aggressive shitbag about it.  If you KNOW that a drug thread is going to spin out of control instantly, either don't post a thread that says "I'll just leave this here" as if you aren't going to engage, then engage, then get all fucking weepy about the results, flounce a dozen fucking times, and then forever after treat everyone on the board like they aren't real people, simply because your rectum burns.  Talking to you, RWHN, if it ain't obvious enough, but it goes for anyone else who starts a thread about a hot-button topic and then starts to settle at the stern when people do EXACTLY WHAT YOU EXPECTED THEM TO DO.  If you are willing to take the pounding and smile, by all means post the thread...But if not, don't be a big fucking nancy when the inevitable happens.  You fucking KNEW what was coming, so why the FUCK are you upset?

DON'T POST ANYTHING WE (TGRR and Nigel) DON'T LIKE!!!!!

This is part of the cancer that is killing the place.  

Dude, I got sick of drug threads almost immediately. I think I actively took part in one, and then threw my hands up and walked away from it because it was just a whole lot of arguing. I glance at them time and again if they come up, but they're just as bad as fluff threads. There's no headway. There's no exchanging of ideas. It's pointless, like two people watching each other jerk off.


5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.


I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.
I guess the actual complaint is closer to "I am sick of putting time into a WOMP and get two of these guys:  :lulz: out of it, so it feels like it's no longer worthwhile.


I do like a pat on the back, but usually what I'm really looking forward to is the response of the person I womped. The anticipation is kinda fun too, like waiting to unwrap a Christmas present. For example, I was very pleased that Trip thought me womping him as Tin Tin was the shit. It made my day.




5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.


I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.

If you have fun doing them, do them.  Just don't do them because it's "tradition" or any shit like that.  I typically go 6 months without WOMPING, then dump a dozen at once.  Likewise, I may not stop ranting, but I am no longer going to rant because I feel its expected of me, etc (funny how you get weird delusions of grandeur, ain't it?).

And Paes, I agree:  The mittens emote needs to die a horrible fucking death.

I try and keep it so that I'm not posting pointless womps. I tend to dump on a specific individual (usually Coyote) so I can concentrate on that person and see what comes out of it. And now I got him with ridiculous shades that I like to toss in every now and again.


ETA: Fixed for quote fail.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Freeky on December 20, 2011, 01:41:05 am

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.


I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.

If you feel like it is a big waste of time and effort, don't do it.  I find WOMP an easier form of content well not easier but it COMES to me easier, much easier than commenting on the newest horrible thing that is going to ruin my life and my home in great big leaps and bounds down the road.  

I agree with what Trip said in the other thread, alerting people to the horror is important, but not everyone can take the rage and fucking with people and turn it into energy.  Mirth is important, too.  

As a support point for number 2, there are a LOT of strong personalities here, and they don't agree on a lot of those topics that spiral into a horrible shitfest within ten pages.  You can hardly expect once the conversation gets nasty that people will just take that lying down.  So number two was less "If you post something I don't like I'm going to shit on you," it's more like "Hey, just a heads up, these topics are going to cause a ruckus because people are passionate about their opinions on them, and if you are going into this thread topic knowing you won't back down from your position it is pretty dumb of you to expect them to do so."  

The fact that Roger is the one that brought up this point shouldn't be an issue, but because he IS such a powerful personality, well,  

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y153/Meiintas/WOMPage/Rogerdidit.jpg)
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 01:47:50 am

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.


I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.

If you feel like it is a big waste of time and effort, don't do it.  I find WOMP an easier form of content well not easier but it COMES to me easier, much easier than commenting on the newest horrible thing that is going to ruin my life and my home in great big leaps and bounds down the road.  

Not exactly what I said. I can see where you would take that meaning. I don't think that womp is a waste of time and effort. Actually, I find it a suitable replacement for the drawings I used to do (no longer have an audience), which admittedly were crude, but entertaining for both myself and the viewer. It was basically analog womp. Used to do it all the time with coworkers I was close with as of 6 years ago. So, now, instead of drawing my coworkers on envelopes, I superimpose your faces on pictures off of google. Just as rewarding, but also just as time consuming. Except now I'm not getting paid for it while the boss isn't looking.

 :wink:
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 01:49:07 am

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.


I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.

If you feel like it is a big waste of time and effort, don't do it.  I find WOMP an easier form of content well not easier but it COMES to me easier, much easier than commenting on the newest horrible thing that is going to ruin my life and my home in great big leaps and bounds down the road.  

Not exactly what I said. I can see where you would take that meaning. I don't think that womp is a waste of time and effort. Actually, I find it a suitable replacement for the drawings I used to do (no longer have an audience), which admittedly were crude, but entertaining for both myself and the viewer. It was basically analog womp. Used to do it all the time with coworkers I was close with as of 6 years ago. So, now, instead of drawing my coworkers on envelopes, I superimpose your faces on pictures off of google. Just as rewarding, but also just as time consuming. Except now I'm not getting paid for it while the boss isn't looking.

 :wink:

Or in other words, I like you guys.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Kai on December 20, 2011, 01:49:28 am
I agree with all points except the last one. That road is such a slippery slope that I say the moderators shouldn't even tread near it.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Freeky on December 20, 2011, 01:50:50 am

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.


I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.

If you feel like it is a big waste of time and effort, don't do it.  I find WOMP an easier form of content well not easier but it COMES to me easier, much easier than commenting on the newest horrible thing that is going to ruin my life and my home in great big leaps and bounds down the road.  

Not exactly what I said. I can see where you would take that meaning. I don't think that womp is a waste of time and effort. Actually, I find it a suitable replacement for the drawings I used to do (no longer have an audience), which admittedly were crude, but entertaining for both myself and the viewer. It was basically analog womp. Used to do it all the time with coworkers I was close with as of 6 years ago. So, now, instead of drawing my coworkers on envelopes, I superimpose your faces on pictures off of google. Just as rewarding, but also just as time consuming. Except now I'm not getting paid for it while the boss isn't looking.

 :wink:

:lol:  I saw your post after I'd posted my thing.  I didn't mean to harp on a thing that had been clarified.  My bad.   :)
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Phox on December 20, 2011, 02:08:37 am
In regards to 2 and 3, I have been trying to do that less, and have taken to reading and not commenting when I have nothing meaningful to say (which is most of the damn time, it would seem). I haven't completely gotten out of it, because I appreciate a great deal of the content posted and often wish to let people know that I read it. There's a bit of a paradox, I think, though because on the one hand, we want to encourage meaningful discussion and so forth but at the same time, when people don't respond at all, I feel like some posters say "fuck it" and don't bother posting more content. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I get that sense sometimes.

I am not quite of a mind to articulate my thoughts on the rest of the discussion at this time, but I will certainly be keeping these points in mind.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 02:12:10 am
In regards to 2 and 3, I have been trying to do that less, and have taken to reading and not commenting when I have nothing meaningful to say (which is most of the damn time, it would seem). I haven't completely gotten out of it, because I appreciate a great deal of the content posted and often wish to let people know that I read it. There's a bit of a paradox, I think, though because on the one hand, we want to encourage meaningful discussion and so forth but at the same time, when people don't respond at all, I feel like some posters say "fuck it" and don't bother posting more content. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I get that sense sometimes.

I am not quite of a mind to articulate my thoughts on the rest of the discussion at this time, but I will certainly be keeping these points in mind.

No, I see exactly what you're saying. I often feel the same way about Cain's threads, like, I want him to know I've read his thread, but I just don't have anything insightful to say.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 03:42:27 am
I have five minutes before I have to be out the door, but PERHAPS NO BIG SURPRISE I completely agree with Roger, including (and especially) the points that involve my own shortcomings. It has nothing to do with "don't post things that Nigel and Roger don't like"; it has everything to do with "if you post something you know will stir shit up, be prepared to defend it with reason and citations if necessary, and don't go all whiny and passive-aggressive if you can't."

And seriously with the unending blog shit and personal drama. I am FAR from innocent on this front, and I am even sick of my own shit. If you can't tell an interesting/funny story about it, maybe reconsider whether posting about your ass polyps is going to be interesting or elucidating to anyone but yourself, in which case, that's what your diary is for. Just my opinion.

I am more tentative about #10, but only if we all redevelop the intestinal fortitude to just ignore stupid trolls, which used to work just fine.

And FFS stop acting oppressed if someone you feel intimidated by for some reason disagrees with, challenges, or critiques your post, and if you go all monkey screechy about it don't whine when they decide that for their own personal purposes you're a fucktard and don't deserve the respect or time of reasonable discourse.

Lastly, n00bs. Sometimes people show up and don't post anything intended to impress anyone or push anyone's buttons. Sometimes they just sort of read a bit and then start making  thoughtful contributions to threads they read. Not unsurprisingly, those people tend not to get jumped on, and in fact for the most part nobody ever makes a big deal about them being a n00b. We seem to have picked up one such in just the past week, but nobody's noticed because he/she/it hasn't said anything button-pushy enough to receive pushback. These are the new people who tend to stick around, and the ones that go all "ALL WOMEN SHOULD BE PROSTITUTES" or "MAGICKS IS REAL" are seriously not really people most of us WANT the board to be populated by. Am I completely off-base? Even so, I do agree that we should exercise a little more restraint when it comes to the 50-post rule, unless they're being all-out offensive.

That said, when we go trolling and people follow us back here, it makes perfect sense to give them more wiggle room because we're the ones who got them riled in the first place.

I have more thoughts on all of this but I have to go. More tomorrow.

Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 03:45:34 am
One last thing: THANK FUCKING FUCK ECH killed Open Bar, because the board is more active tonight, across more subs, than I've seen it in months.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Don Coyote on December 20, 2011, 03:53:05 am

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.


I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.

If you have fun doing them, do them.  Just don't do them because it's "tradition" or any shit like that.  I typically go 6 months without WOMPING, then dump a dozen at once.  Likewise, I may not stop ranting, but I am no longer going to rant because I feel its expected of me, etc (funny how you get weird delusions of grandeur, ain't it?).

And Paes, I agree:  The mittens emote needs to die a horrible fucking death.

That is basically why I don't WOMP much.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Luna on December 20, 2011, 04:02:25 am
I have read all this, and am pondering. 

I'm having fun playing with WOMPs, and will keep doing them as the spirit moves me.  (And when pics like the one Telarus dropped in my lap of the Disney drag princesses hit my screen.)  And, yeah, it's more fun when the person you WOMPs decides to hit back.  (Paes, you're awesome, and I ain't through with you, yet.)

Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Richter on December 20, 2011, 04:17:24 am
Valid points.  The bit about constructive response is especially worthwhile.  This is a two way thing.  Being a cognizant reader of what other people are posting, and putting out constructive replies is going to work out good for everyone.  Especially being on reduced posting, trying to be content even if I'm jsut bouncing off of someone else's content is my only hope of keeping relevant.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 05:53:26 am

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.


I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.

If you have fun doing them, do them.  Just don't do them because it's "tradition" or any shit like that.  I typically go 6 months without WOMPING, then dump a dozen at once.  Likewise, I may not stop ranting, but I am no longer going to rant because I feel its expected of me, etc (funny how you get weird delusions of grandeur, ain't it?).

And Paes, I agree:  The mittens emote needs to die a horrible fucking death.

That is basically why I don't WOMP much.

Your WOMPS are of epic, epic weirdness and I love them. Just saying.

I love WOMPing (and I usually crack myself up all over the place while I'm making one) but it is far easier and less time consuming for me to write, and less likely for me to lose my place in the middle when I'm interrupted.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nast on December 20, 2011, 05:59:30 am
I was forced to play "The Interactive Justin Bieber Dress Up Game" for 6 months because I accidently clicked a pop-up on the side of my email window. It left me a ragged shell of my former self.
               \
(http://images.playpink.com/img/justin-bieber.jpg)


In happier news, I'll spend more time posting here, probably about food.

Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Freeky on December 20, 2011, 06:07:10 am
I was forced to play "The Interactive Justin Bieber Dress Up Game" for 6 months because I accidently clicked a pop-up on the side of my email window. It left me a ragged shell of my former self.
               \
(http://images.playpink.com/img/justin-bieber.jpg)


In happier news, I'll spend more time posting here, probably about food.



:x  That sounds terrible! 
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 06:29:39 am
I was forced to play "The Interactive Justin Bieber Dress Up Game" for 6 months because I accidently clicked a pop-up on the side of my email window. It left me a ragged shell of my former self.
               \
(http://images.playpink.com/img/justin-bieber.jpg)


In happier news, I'll spend more time posting here, probably about food.



That should make Roger feel a lot better about the Russian virus he got on his computer.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Demolition_Squid on December 20, 2011, 10:46:39 am
Okay, I largely agree... point by point:

1) I always feel uncomfortable discussing my own personal life and reading about other people's makes me feel like a voyeur.

2) That's fair, and I've probably been guilty of deciding that I have nothing meaningful to add. I will personally make more of an effort to engage (again).

3) :mittens: (someone had to oh god don't hurt me)

4) Totally agree.

5) I like the writing and the rants and everything else, but I see what you mean. I'm not sure what the new direction could be, but I guess that's the point you are making. Will think on this some more.

6) I like you Roger. Heck, far as I can remember, you've never even ripped into me, and you once said I was 'alright'.  :)

7) See my signature.

8) Pretty much agree, but I'm terrible with names and tend to judge on a case by case basis anyway (especially as I view without signatures/avatars at work)

9) Can't comment on this as PD.com seems to work perfectly fine over in the UK. I suspect a conspiracy of redcoats claiming revenge for what you bastards did to all the tea. Revenge rides a slow horse.

10) This is where I'm not so sure. PD.com's banning policy is one of the things which really sets it apart from other forums. If we do need to change it up, I would like to suggest all the decisions be made openly, and I assume bannings already need the support of the majority of mods. I do agree that people who are just here to shit on everything is a major drag and seems to be becoming more of a problem.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 10:54:58 am
4.  If you KNOW a subject will bring down a shitstorm and - knowing this - you post a thread about that subject, don't start fucking bitching when that shitstorm arrives.  And if you do, for fuck's sake don't be a passive-aggressive shitbag about it.  If you KNOW that a drug thread is going to spin out of control instantly, either don't post a thread that says "I'll just leave this here" as if you aren't going to engage, then engage, then get all fucking weepy about the results, flounce a dozen fucking times, and then forever after treat everyone on the board like they aren't real people, simply because your rectum burns.  Talking to you, RWHN, if it ain't obvious enough, but it goes for anyone else who starts a thread about a hot-button topic and then starts to settle at the stern when people do EXACTLY WHAT YOU EXPECTED THEM TO DO.  If you are willing to take the pounding and smile, by all means post the thread...But if not, don't be a big fucking nancy when the inevitable happens.  You fucking KNEW what was coming, so why the FUCK are you upset?

DON'T POST ANYTHING WE (TGRR and Nigel) DON'T LIKE!!!!!

This is part of the cancer that is killing the place. 

That isn't what I said, you fucked up little pussy.  Grow the fuck up.

You are such a passive-aggressive little shitstain, RWHN.  You have been for at least 2 years.

Spare me the internet tough guy, please, this isn't my first turkey trot.  I'm a bit more resilient than your average noob.  And don't talk to me about being a pussy.  Why don't you go whine some more about people not posting when you want them to.  Here's a clue.  People have fucking jobs, they have fucking lives.  People are getting promoted, getting new jobs.  Life is happening. 

That doesn't mean the discordia stops. It just means the postings here slow down.  So fucking what.  But, yes, why don't you threaten to take your toys and go home.  THAT will solve things!
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 10:58:27 am
I don't know how many times I've seen this cycle before.  The board sucks, so maybe if we screech a little bit about who is posting bad shit and what people SHOULD be posting about, it will magically get better.  I'm not saying there aren't some valid points, but at some point you are trying to herd cats.  Order the disorder. 

But just for the record, I sure as hell am NOT going to stop posting things I want to post and talk about just because it ruffles a couple of peoples' feathers.  This is a community and we all get different things from this community and give different things to this community.  You can't make, or guilt, people into posting what YOU want them to post.  That's not going to make anything better. 
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Pæs on December 20, 2011, 11:04:41 am
But just for the record, I sure as hell am NOT going to stop posting things I want to post and talk about just because it ruffles a couple of peoples' feathers.  This is a community and we all get different things from this community and give different things to this community.  You can't make, or guilt, people into posting what YOU want them to post.  That's not going to make anything better. 
This is kind of where I was coming from with my concern in the other thread and with burning Open Bar and the comment about dropping anything that looks like it.

I'm not going to miss Open Bar but the amount of traffic it got seems to suggest that it's something people are looking to use the site for.
Can't we find better ways to get what we want out of the board without forbidding boring stories?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 11:06:02 am
Lastly, I would humbly suggest that there might be a bit of a cult of personality that has developed around this place that makes the dynamics challenging at times.  Whether anyone cares to admit to it or not, there is definitely a popular pecking order around these parts, and you can even see it demonstrated in this thread.  Now, perhaps the rest of the board is cool with this, I can only assume they are since it's happened.  ECH in another thread said something about changing this place to the TGRRandNIGEL.com board or something, and it was a one off joke, but there is a nugget of truth to that, I think.  

Sure, cast that criticism aside as "whining".  But it's the goddamned truth and I know I'm not the only one that has made that observation.  But, that's just the way the board has evolved, and I don't think that is something where you can just wave a magic wand and undo it, and I'm not necessarily suggesting it should be undone.  But it IS a characteristic of this board.  It just is.  

I've adapted, I can roll with it.  I personally don't give a fuck about Tucson, I don't give a fuck about Portland, I don't give a fuck about Mr. Language, or what happens at the power plant.  And I'm sure you guys could give a fuck about what happens in my office.  I originally came here for the Discordia, but that doesn't really seem to happen much anymore.  Now, I come for a little fun every now and again to break up the monotony of my day.  So I'll just make my own little Discordia.  

Anyway, take those musings for what you think they are worth.  
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 11:06:28 am
YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Pæs on December 20, 2011, 11:08:14 am
I wish "WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE BOARD HOW DO WE FIX IT?" was limited to one thread to make it easier to discuss.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Pæs on December 20, 2011, 11:11:09 am
I'm going to post my comment from the other thread here so that I can refer to it more easily while reading this thread.

Quote
This thread got me thinking about the criticism of organisations in The Coming Insurrection.

Quote
Organizations are attractive due to their apparent consistency – they have a history, a head office, a name, resources, a leader, a strategy and a discourse. They are nonetheless empty structures, which, in spite of their grand origins, can never be filled. In all their affairs, at every level, these organizations are concerned above all with their own survival as organizations, and little else. Their repeated betrayals have often alienated the commitment of their own rank and file. And this is why you can, on occasion, run into worthy beings within them. But the promise of the encounter can only be realized outside the organization and, unavoidably, at odds with it.

While I wouldn't attack PD.com with quite the same criticism, I think it's important to recognise that some people aren't here to contribute to MY understanding of Discordia. For some our posters, just being a part of this community as a community rather than as a means to advance Discordianism, is their aim. The sharing of what is seen as "the banal details of their lives" is a pretty normal part of the friendship they have with a lot of the other members. If that's not what some people want out of the site, I think we need to decide whether we can tell others that they're not allowed to get that here anymore; that efforts like this one need to be understood from the perspective of the members who will reply with "oh, so I can't contribute content, I guess I'm not wanted here anymore".

Do we risk their leaving by demanding that the evolution of Discordianism become our focus and restricting their ability to chat about their day?
Would their leaving actually be helpful in increasing content?

I stayed cause it turns out I love you guys
Not to imply that Cramulus is ONLY here to develop the community as a social community, but this post is a good example of what is keeping some people here.


What's the point in critiquing anything or engaging in real discussion when it all results in a nest of passive-aggressive snarking and whining? People say ridiculous things in order to get a reaction and then instead of engaging with people criticizing them or trying to improve their work, they either lash out, or they withdraw and sulk. It's like a whole generation of adult intellectual exercise has fallen out the window, and all that's left is a pile of mittens and butthurt.
This is a problem that, for those of us who are here to engage in real discussion, needs to be addressed. There's a lot of personal attachment to ideas, and hollering and screeching in response to people digging in and the discussion turning into a flame war.

In part, you've addressed it here:
Tip, though; if you are criticized, rather than taking it personally, brushing it off, or, worst of all, digging in and going defensive, just absorb it, say "thank you", and remember that you can always simply not use criticism that truly doesn't work for you.

But I wonder if we need to develop better tools and methods for addressing arguments that people are too invested in without triggering their "I AM BEING ATTACKED" circuitry.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Demolition_Squid on December 20, 2011, 11:16:37 am
I don't know how many times I've seen this cycle before.  The board sucks, so maybe if we screech a little bit about who is posting bad shit and what people SHOULD be posting about, it will magically get better.  I'm not saying there aren't some valid points, but at some point you are trying to herd cats.  Order the disorder. 

But just for the record, I sure as hell am NOT going to stop posting things I want to post and talk about just because it ruffles a couple of peoples' feathers.  This is a community and we all get different things from this community and give different things to this community.  You can't make, or guilt, people into posting what YOU want them to post.  That's not going to make anything better. 

But nothing you've said implies you think there is anything of value to be found in them.

What you have done is kicked and screamed about Roger and Nigel (again) as though that is somehow more constructive than what Roger did, which was by the way not JUST saying he sees no point in posting any more.

So, you've seen this cycle a lot. Do you have anything constructive to add about how we might get around it? What direction we might go in? Or, are you just going to post passive aggressive shit like:

Quote from: My Lady is a Cantaloupe
YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

And make yourself into a caricature rather than engage with any actual conversation?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Pæs on December 20, 2011, 11:22:38 am
Lastly, I would humbly suggest that there might be a bit of a cult of personality that has developed around this place that makes the dynamics challenging at times.  Whether anyone cares to admit to it or not, there is definitely a popular pecking order around these parts, and you can even see it demonstrated in this thread.  Now, perhaps the rest of the board is cool with this, I can only assume they are since it's happened.  ECH in another thread said something about changing this place to the TGRRandNIGEL.com board or something, and it was a one off joke, but there is a nugget of truth to that, I think.  

Sure, cast that criticism aside as "whining".  But it's the goddamned truth and I know I'm not the only one that has made that observation.  But, that's just the way the board has evolved, and I don't think that is something where you can just wave a magic wand and undo it, and I'm not necessarily suggesting it should be undone.  But it IS a characteristic of this board.  It just is.  
SECRET: You're not allowed to acknowledge the pecking order, not because it's insulting to suggest that we'd recognise such a thing, but because denial of it is a fantastic method of driving to insanity the people who think they've recognised it and would like to blame it for their unpopularity.

I've adapted, I can roll with it.  I personally don't give a fuck about Tucson, I don't give a fuck about Portland, I don't give a fuck about Mr. Language, or what happens at the power plant.  And I'm sure you guys could give a fuck about what happens in my office.  I originally came here for the Discordia, but that doesn't really seem to happen much anymore.  Now, I come for a little fun every now and again to break up the monotony of my day.  So I'll just make my own little Discordia.    
I don't have any particular interest in Tucson or Portland either, but I learn about them as I would learn about your office if it was being used as a point of reference in your expression of your ideas. General trivial shit about the mythology of those places doesn't interest me, but people write what they know, so it's not so surprising that their environments feature heavily in their posts.

I don't like that you're not here for the Discordia anymore, but I don't know what to suggest to change that, so I guess I'll just leave that part alone.

Also, some of what DS said.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 20, 2011, 11:40:56 am
Sometimes I have something creative to contribute, more often I'm too busy and I just skim the pics thread and read a rant or two. Every time a thread like this happens I chuckle a bit. The "purpose" of this board? Srsly? What, like some kind of holy discordian crusade? Change the world?

Fuck that shit, wouldn't change it if I could. I'm having way too much fun laughing at it just the way it is. But that's just me. There's a fair few posters here who want to do just that and good luck to them. Go raise the profile of eris or get more converts or cause a war or a ceasefire or whatever the fuck it is you want to do. I'm perfectly cool with that. Just don't expect any help from me. Not to say you wont get it but just don't expect it from me. I'm mainly here for cheap yuks and a bit of craic with a bunch of people who I know are good for it.

If that gets your panties in a knot then either change the rules and ban me or suck it the fuck up. I am not an all singing, all dancing disciple of discordia. I don't come here to work. I don't have an agenda and I sure as fuck aint interested in furthering any one elses.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Phox on December 20, 2011, 11:45:19 am
RWHN, in all seriousness, I wonder about your motivation for coming back.
it seems that the last few times you've returned after a flounce, you've almost immediately began rehashing the same old fights that caused you to leave in the first place. You have continued to harp on the same issues with Nigel and TGRR. And, as DS has pointed out, you haven't really made a positive contribution to this thread, and yet you feel the need to get on a soapbox and... say nothing of value. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against you personally, but I seriously do not understand what point you are trying to make right now.

For the record, I'll go ahead and say I care about Tuscon and Portland. I care about Mr. Language and the plant, because Nigel and Roger are my friends. So, if that's what they want to talk about, then I'll listen. That is separate from the mythology of Tuscon and the Dark Empress, which is probably one of the most entertaining mythologies that I've heard recently. For me at least, that hasn't gotten stale yet, and while others may disagree, I'd rather have stale stories about them than yet another rehash of the same drug debate that has evidently been going on here since the year dot.  
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Pæs on December 20, 2011, 12:01:24 pm
The topic has me wondering whether a Discordian imageboard might be a useful project for discussion of Discordia without the same style of associated community... and threads which are getting less attention naturally falling off the page.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 01:06:42 pm
I don't know how many times I've seen this cycle before.  The board sucks, so maybe if we screech a little bit about who is posting bad shit and what people SHOULD be posting about, it will magically get better.  I'm not saying there aren't some valid points, but at some point you are trying to herd cats.  Order the disorder. 

But just for the record, I sure as hell am NOT going to stop posting things I want to post and talk about just because it ruffles a couple of peoples' feathers.  This is a community and we all get different things from this community and give different things to this community.  You can't make, or guilt, people into posting what YOU want them to post.  That's not going to make anything better. 

But nothing you've said implies you think there is anything of value to be found in them.

Well, I decided to start with the one where I got singled out.  But for the record, I like 2,3,5, and 8.  The rest I don't think really amount to much.  Especially the bit about the n00bs.  This place just can't help itself when it comes to n00bs and trolls.  There's lots of bellyaching and complaining, yet, y'all jump right in and feed it.  If you guys REALLY didn't like that shit you would ignore it. 

Quote
What you have done is kicked and screamed about Roger and Nigel (again) as though that is somehow more constructive than what Roger did, which was by the way not JUST saying he sees no point in posting any more.

Because whether you want to see it or not, that particular dynamic between those two is part of why, for better or for worse, the board is what it is today.  Look at the Discordianism v SubG thread.  Look at how they snarked at Cram for expressing an opinion.  Why the fuck would anyone want to discuss anything contrary to THEIR opinion if that's the way it's going to go?  It IS content killer. 

Quote
So, you've seen this cycle a lot. Do you have anything constructive to add about how we might get around it? What direction we might go in?

Well, for starter, a little more respect amongst users, especially those who've been around for awhile, would be good.  Yeah, it still burns me a bit that I was called a fraud and everyone sat on their thumbs.  It bothers me to see someone like Cram get some snark for voicing an opinion.  Yeah, I know, I know, "Discordia is not nice..."  But really, there is a way for that to exist AND for us to be a little more respectful to each other.  But if we're just going to be a pack of tough-guys, well, you guys are going to be talking to yourselves for quite a while. 

THAT SAID, the lives of the old guard have changed.  We are getting older.  We have new and different responsibilities.  You can't force content.  But, we can look at board dynamics and address those.  Before TGRR or Nigel goes off into hyperbolic hysterics, NO, I'm not saying you have to treat everyone like they are delicate little flowers.  But maybe, just maybe, we can stop right before we go into character assassination mode. 

Or is that too much to ask? 
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: LMNO on December 20, 2011, 01:15:44 pm
Hmm.  Interesting OP.

It's helped coalesce some thoughts/feelings.

PD.com, perhaps, should not be treated as a passive social board... it should be treated as an active Interesting™ board.

It might be that we have fallen into "F5" mode because of this.  If the majority of posts are status updates, that is information from your personal world that we can passively observe.  Essentially, there is no communication.  We live our IRL, and then tell you about it.  Hit Refresh.

If we look at the threads that we have more or less agreed are the most interesting, it's when we start doing something together, something that can't be found IRL.  BIP, Spiders (the essays and the games), Nessies, Muppets {The Real Story}, Chao te Ching, trolling/safaris... Even the better politics threads have an element of collaboration rather than soliloquy.

I know, it's hard.  I've been a empty well, as far as words or ideas go (I've been a bit better with music, but that's a fairly one-sided passive trip, as well).  And one of the hardest things is the realization that for every five ideas thrown onto the board, maybe one will stick.  So you have to get ready for an 80% failure rate.  But perhaps, one thing we should keep in mind is that even negative feedback can be interesting, as long as you explain yourself.  Simply posting "this sucks" doesn't work.  Break it down, self-analyze, explain why it sucks.  Conversely, I don't have a problem with the mittens, I have a problem with only mittens.  Mittens should be a "Yes, and..." thought.  Add a thought.  And don't be afraid to embarass yourself.  It's only pixels on a screen.

So yeah.  Active, and Interesting.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Khore on December 20, 2011, 01:18:18 pm
Come on, we are Discordians, we have no rules. We are free man.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 01:18:55 pm
RWHN, in all seriousness, I wonder about your motivation for coming back.

I only left out of some weird paranoia linked to this job I've applied for.  I quickly realized that was a little wacky so I came back.  VOILA!
 
Quote
it seems that the last few times you've returned after a flounce, you've almost immediately began rehashing the same old fights that caused you to leave in the first place. You have continued to harp on the same issues with Nigel and TGRR. And, as DS has pointed out, you haven't really made a positive contribution to this thread, and yet you feel the need to get on a soapbox and... say nothing of value. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against you personally, but I seriously do not understand what point you are trying to make right now.

I spoke my piece about what I see as part of the problem, if that is not of any value to you then so be it.  Maybe it isn't of value to anyone.  But I am a part of this community.  I've been a part of this community for 6+ years.  I've been an active member of this community.  So I'm going to throw my two cents out, if they are duds for the rest of you, oh well, my loss.  But, I WILL SURVIVE!!!!   :)

Quote
For the record, I'll go ahead and say I care about Tuscon and Portland. I care about Mr. Language and the plant, because Nigel and Roger are my friends. So, if that's what they want to talk about, then I'll listen. That is separate from the mythology of Tuscon and the Dark Empress, which is probably one of the most entertaining mythologies that I've heard recently. For me at least, that hasn't gotten stale yet, and while others may disagree, I'd rather have stale stories about them than yet another rehash of the same drug debate that has evidently been going on here since the year dot.  

Well, I gather that quite a few folks around here do like that stuff.  I'm pretty sure I am in the minority.  Oh well.  
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Demolition_Squid on December 20, 2011, 01:24:16 pm
I don't know how many times I've seen this cycle before.  The board sucks, so maybe if we screech a little bit about who is posting bad shit and what people SHOULD be posting about, it will magically get better.  I'm not saying there aren't some valid points, but at some point you are trying to herd cats.  Order the disorder. 

But just for the record, I sure as hell am NOT going to stop posting things I want to post and talk about just because it ruffles a couple of peoples' feathers.  This is a community and we all get different things from this community and give different things to this community.  You can't make, or guilt, people into posting what YOU want them to post.  That's not going to make anything better. 

But nothing you've said implies you think there is anything of value to be found in them.

Well, I decided to start with the one where I got singled out.  But for the record, I like 2,3,5, and 8.  The rest I don't think really amount to much.  Especially the bit about the n00bs.  This place just can't help itself when it comes to n00bs and trolls.  There's lots of bellyaching and complaining, yet, y'all jump right in and feed it.  If you guys REALLY didn't like that shit you would ignore it. 

Quote
What you have done is kicked and screamed about Roger and Nigel (again) as though that is somehow more constructive than what Roger did, which was by the way not JUST saying he sees no point in posting any more.

Because whether you want to see it or not, that particular dynamic between those two is part of why, for better or for worse, the board is what it is today.  Look at the Discordianism v SubG thread.  Look at how they snarked at Cram for expressing an opinion.  Why the fuck would anyone want to discuss anything contrary to THEIR opinion if that's the way it's going to go?  It IS content killer. 

Quote
So, you've seen this cycle a lot. Do you have anything constructive to add about how we might get around it? What direction we might go in?

Well, for starter, a little more respect amongst users, especially those who've been around for awhile, would be good.  Yeah, it still burns me a bit that I was called a fraud and everyone sat on their thumbs.  It bothers me to see someone like Cram get some snark for voicing an opinion.  Yeah, I know, I know, "Discordia is not nice..."  But really, there is a way for that to exist AND for us to be a little more respectful to each other.  But if we're just going to be a pack of tough-guys, well, you guys are going to be talking to yourselves for quite a while. 

THAT SAID, the lives of the old guard have changed.  We are getting older.  We have new and different responsibilities.  You can't force content.  But, we can look at board dynamics and address those.  Before TGRR or Nigel goes off into hyperbolic hysterics, NO, I'm not saying you have to treat everyone like they are delicate little flowers.  But maybe, just maybe, we can stop right before we go into character assassination mode. 

Or is that too much to ask? 

See, that's a lot more to go on than attacking Roger and Nigel.

I find it difficult to empathise with the newbie thing, because I never went through it. But that is an issue which has been raised. I don't think anyone wants it to keep continuing.

Whether or not we can (or should) soften the board tone is a different question. The fiasco where you were called a fraud is probably the biggest example lately, where that bad feeling got spread out everywhere and actively made the board a shitty place to be for about a week.

It used to be that we tried to keep our disagreements in the individual threads, and approach the content as content regardless of who it came from. Obviously, that can't happen all the time, but I do think it would be better if we could move back towards that a bit. Being able to express a dissenting opinion is also vitally important, and I am also sick of people threatening to pick up their ball and go home if they feel challenged.  

I think point 3 of the OP dealt with this. I think it needs to be taken to heart. If people want non-vapid commentary, they need to be able to have a discussion, rather than a screaming match or a hissy fit.

I guess there's a difference between being 'soft and fluffy' and not going to personal attacks immediately, and perhaps we should acknowledge that?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 01:29:34 pm
I have no problem having passionate exchanges on topics.  Lord knows I've been involved in many outside of the drug debates.  In fact, I still remember my first throw-down which was actually with LMNO.  It went on for pages and pages, and was pretty heated, but he didn't attack me personally and vice versa.  We survived and he's one of the posters I admire most on this site.  But where I do have the problem is when it gets personal and posters are attacked personally.  And I'm not just talking about me but I've seen it happen in other fights with other long-time members. 

So I think one thing we ALL can do to make things better around here is to acknowledge that we don't go THERE.  We put 110% into our opinion on whatever the topic may be but we don't go THERE and attack the person.  I think that could go a long way to making this place more conducive to information exchange and content. 
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Demolition_Squid on December 20, 2011, 01:36:17 pm
I have no problem having passionate exchanges on topics.  Lord knows I've been involved in many outside of the drug debates.  In fact, I still remember my first throw-down which was actually with LMNO.  It went on for pages and pages, and was pretty heated, but he didn't attack me personally and vice versa.  We survived and he's one of the posters I admire most on this site.  But where I do have the problem is when it gets personal and posters are attacked personally.  And I'm not just talking about me but I've seen it happen in other fights with other long-time members. 

So I think one thing we ALL can do to make things better around here is to acknowledge that we don't go THERE.  We put 110% into our opinion on whatever the topic may be but we don't go THERE and attack the person.  I think that could go a long way to making this place more conducive to information exchange and content. 

I would agree with this...

But then there are occasions where a personal attack is well deserved. The two off the top of my head are Babylon Horuv, and Triple Zero's fantastic takedown of Disco Pickle, both of which, in my opinion, richly deserve(d) what they got.

So I think overall it needs to be a bit more nuanced, and nobody should be saying 'no no personal attacks are always wrong always', but some awareness that it may be a contributing factor to the bigger problems is probably reasonable.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 01:55:31 pm
Come on, we are Discordians, we have no rules. We are free man.

There are always going to be rules of some sort.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Khore on December 20, 2011, 02:02:15 pm
Come on, we are Discordians, we have no rules. We are free man.

There are always going to be rules of some sort.
Ok. I prefer fewer rules and more free as possible.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 02:08:37 pm
Come on, we are Discordians, we have no rules. We are free man.

Who was talking about rules?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 02:09:03 pm
Come on, we are Discordians, we have no rules. We are free man.

There are always going to be rules of some sort.
Ok. I prefer fewer rules and more free as possible.

I think you're really missing the point of the thread.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Khore on December 20, 2011, 02:14:19 pm
Dammit :oops:
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 02:14:48 pm
Lastly, I would humbly suggest that there might be a bit of a cult of personality that has developed around this place that makes the dynamics challenging at times.

Whose fault is that?  Should Nigel and I stop posting?  Should we maybe turn the mind control lasers down a bit?  What?  I mean, I'd think that someone worried about that might try to make this the board they want it to be.  I have never used my admin status to enforce my personal opinion, and I never will.  That being the case, there's nothing here that makes me any more influential than you.

Because whether you want to see it or not, that particular dynamic between those two is part of why, for better or for worse, the board is what it is today.  Look at the Discordianism v SubG thread.  Look at how they snarked at Cram for expressing an opinion.  Why the fuck would anyone want to discuss anything contrary to THEIR opinion if that's the way it's going to go?  It IS content killer. 

Um, so, Nigel and I are not allowed to an express an opinion?  Or are you suggesting that Cram can snark and we can't?  Or perhaps you are saying Cram can't speak up for himself?  I might have missed it, but I didn't see you diving in to take up his cause at the time.

Besides, as you have said at least twice, we exist only for your entertainment.  I fail to see the problem.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 02:15:37 pm
YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

Whoops.  Missed this.

Nothing to see here.  Silly me, I thought you were actually trying to make a point.

It takes a bit of getting used to, this object of entertainment thing.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Faust on December 20, 2011, 02:17:42 pm
While pretty much everything posted in the OP is pretty spot on, the act of posting it can alienate people.
The comment about Nigel and roger dominating most of the board isn't entirely fair or accurate. The do have a disproportionately higher post count then others, but it hasn't changed. Not in years. What has happened is there has been a decline in the frequency others would post. If you click on the stats button on the front page you can see that the amount of new posts and the amount of new threads per month has declined steadily for almost a year now.

New people don't stay long, the people who were here have left or cut down on their posting, the simple fact of the matter is we need fresh blood for fresh ideas. In the past we've gotten members from place like MW, COG or the like, but with the recent T2 fiasco, all we've gotten are a couple of braindead bozo's who think they are trolling us.

I've been meaning to get some technology based discussion going because over the last year that is what my focus has been on entirely, I'll see if I can wrangle stuff over the next while.

Quote
9.  The board loading issues, search functions, etc.  This place hangs a dozen times a day, the page load time is outrageous, and half the time it times out.  Apparently, this only happens on the American side of the Atlantic, but it's gotten so fucking bad that I - the greatest PD junkie in its history - often leave for a weekend because I get really sick of timeouts and lost responses.  There has to be some solution for this...Trip & Faust, I've been asking around, and it's not just me.  Also, the search function thing...I know it's fucking bolluxed to hell and gone, but is there any way we can restore it or fix it?  
You think we haven't been working on this. TWO Years we have been doing our best to find sources of downtime.

Problem: The site is inherently unstable, prone to lagging or timing out.

Diagnosis: The database is too big to be used on a live forum, specifically the messages column. Certain features place more of a strain on the site then others, some have been identified, many more have not. The site operates optimally with no extra resources being needed when these glitches are not occurring.

Treatment: Any of the features that cause a systemic CRASH of the site such as the search function have been disabled, the feature could be re enabled but any time a person searches the site WILL go down. Over the next couple of weeks I will be watching for these queries and see if they can be modified so that they don't instantly hog all the resources, otherwise they can be disabled.

Quick fix: The problem is the size of the messages table, if we keep throwing large amounts of data overboard all features including search will resume functioning appropriately. The downside is that it means ejecting large segments of data from the forum.

I want to avoid quick fix so I will continue trying to find specific queries that cause these lags. But for the next two weeks I want to see can just the forum function when all other services have been disabled. So if anything doesn't work for the next two weeks such as the WIKI or the like, please don't freak out.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 02:21:58 pm
While pretty much everything posted in the OP is pretty spot on, the act of posting it can alienate people.

Yeah, but drastic measures were necessary, IMO.


The comment about Nigel and roger dominating most of the board isn't entirely fair or accurate.

What's fair & accurate got to do with it?

The do have a disproportionately higher post count then others, but it hasn't changed. Not in years. What has happened is there has been a decline in the frequency others would post. If you click on the stats button on the front page you can see that the amount of new posts and the amount of new threads per month has declined steadily for almost a year now.

New people don't stay long, the people who were here have left or cut down on their posting, the simple fact of the matter is we need fresh blood for fresh ideas. In the past we've gotten members from place like MW, COG or the like, but with the recent T2 fiasco, all we've gotten are a couple of braindead bozo's who think they are trolling us.

I've been meaning to get some technology based discussion going because over the last year that is what my focus has been on entirely, I'll see if I can wrangle stuff over the next while.

Quote
9.  The board loading issues, search functions, etc.  This place hangs a dozen times a day, the page load time is outrageous, and half the time it times out.  Apparently, this only happens on the American side of the Atlantic, but it's gotten so fucking bad that I - the greatest PD junkie in its history - often leave for a weekend because I get really sick of timeouts and lost responses.  There has to be some solution for this...Trip & Faust, I've been asking around, and it's not just me.  Also, the search function thing...I know it's fucking bolluxed to hell and gone, but is there any way we can restore it or fix it?  
You think we haven't been working on this. TWO Years we have been doing our best to find sources of downtime.

Problem: The site is inherently unstable, prone to lagging or timing out.

Diagnosis: The database is too big to be used on a live forum, specifically the messages column. Certain features place more of a strain on the site then others, some have been identified, many more have not. The site operates optimally with no extra resources being needed when these glitches are not occurring.

Treatment: Any of the features that cause a systemic CRASH of the site such as the search function have been disabled, the feature could be re enabled but any time a person searches the site WILL go down. Over the next couple of weeks I will be watching for these queries and see if they can be modified so that they don't instantly hog all the resources, otherwise they can be disabled.

Quick fix: The problem is the size of the messages table, if we keep throwing large amounts of data overboard all features including search will resume functioning appropriately. The downside is that it means ejecting large segments of data from the forum.

I want to avoid quick fix so I will continue trying to find specific queries that cause these lags. But for the next two weeks I want to see can just the forum function when all other services have been disabled. So if anything doesn't work for the next two weeks such as the WIKI or the like, please don't freak out.

I appreciate all the effort Faust.  Is there any way you can post updates in the metaboards, as progress is made?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Faust on December 20, 2011, 02:26:57 pm
Will do.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 03:20:04 pm
Quote from: Roger
9.  The board loading issues, search functions, etc.

This is noted, important and indeed very much on my mind.

As far the loading issues go: Faust and I are busy tweaking the server configuration and forum code several times per week, every time either of us thinks of something that might improve performance, we shoot eachother a PM and try it out. Sometimes it improves a littlebit, but never any real big solid gains. It's also hard to test when everybody is apparently affected differently depending on access time of day and geographic location.

About the search function. Believe me, I want it back too, I just need to find out how. The angle I'm currently looking at, is to load the forum posts into a separate system, a specialized full-text search software that keeps its own optimized index of posts and search-terms, separate from the SMF database. That might mean it's not always up-to-date with the live forum, but even if it is updated only once a week, that's good enough for 99% of searches. There's several open-source solutions for this kind of software, I need to download one, install and see how easy it is to load SMF posts into it. And of course see whether it's lighter on the server than SMF's search.

Finally, a lot of these problems would be solved if we simply had a more powerful and dedicated server. I believe Faust has his eye on a certain deal, but I forget how or what or when. But better deals are always welcome, so if ANYONE READING THIS knows of a decent deal on a dedicated server, that is located in Ireland or at least in Europe we'd love to hear about it.




I find it a suitable replacement for the drawings I used to do (no longer have an audience), which admittedly were crude, but entertaining for both myself and the viewer. It was basically analog womp. Used to do it all the time with coworkers I was close with as of 6 years ago.

I don't think you have lack of an audience, but rather lack of a scanner to use to post your drawings? I'd love to see your drawings, especially if you draw us!
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Cramulus on December 20, 2011, 03:23:06 pm
I have no problem having passionate exchanges on topics.  Lord knows I've been involved in many outside of the drug debates.  In fact, I still remember my first throw-down which was actually with LMNO.  It went on for pages and pages, and was pretty heated, but he didn't attack me personally and vice versa.  We survived and he's one of the posters I admire most on this site.  But where I do have the problem is when it gets personal and posters are attacked personally.  And I'm not just talking about me but I've seen it happen in other fights with other long-time members. 

So I think one thing we ALL can do to make things better around here is to acknowledge that we don't go THERE.  We put 110% into our opinion on whatever the topic may be but we don't go THERE and attack the person.  I think that could go a long way to making this place more conducive to information exchange and content. 

Khara said it well too:

Quote
the criticism ... to take it or give it with any grace or maturity


This, totally this.

I don't see a lot of helpful critique and useful feedback loops anymore. Well, people are really critical, but it is typically served with a side of mockery and judgment, which is pretty much guarantees the rest of the thread is an attack/defense and no information is exchanged.

It's not just Nigel and Roger, it's all over the board. Just the other week I was shocked to see LMNO drop a  (paraphrasing) "YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD" on our old friend Iptuous over some insignificant difference of opinion. Or that trans kid explaining why he's thankful for his unique reality tunnel, and it turned into LOOK AT WHAT A MAGICAL AND UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE YOU ARE. It's really low quality "discussion", definitely not "jailbreaking". It's hard for me to read threads like that and go "Yeah, these are my people. I want to share all sorts of interesting things with them."

We can all agree this is a risky environment for unpopular ideas. Everything gets so intense and personal and judgmental. Quick on the trigger. If you're wondering why people don't post as much, a big factor is because of the hostile atmosphere. If it it weren't so pissy, I think there'd be more/better threads. It's made us insular.

A snapshot of the problem: Our eyes move in an F pattern when we read a post. (myself included) You read the first line, then you scan down the side, then you go back and pick out the one thing that you disagree with, and respond to that. That's not limited to PD, it's all over the internet, but it's gotten markedly worse here. Recently I've felt like a lot of our threads have the same tone as youtube comments, albeit with better vocabulary/grammar.




tl;dr summary:
           PD in 2011: "Get TUFF, Get ZEN, or GTFO
                                      ... where'd everybody go?"
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 03:28:11 pm

I find it a suitable replacement for the drawings I used to do (no longer have an audience), which admittedly were crude, but entertaining for both myself and the viewer. It was basically analog womp. Used to do it all the time with coworkers I was close with as of 6 years ago.

I don't think you have lack of an audience, but rather lack of a scanner to use to post your drawings? I'd love to see your drawings, especially if you draw us!

That is a fair assessment, I guess what I meant was that I don't have any coworkers to do that anymore, nor can I quite get away with drawing at work anymore since my position is no longer one that requires a pencil.

I do miss drawing sometimes, and I'll see if Pickles has a scanner, since that sounds like a lot of fun. I'm sure he does, he has a lot of computer equipment. Plus there is some stuff that I have made that I would like to put on here but have since lost the files to and only have them as paper copies. I could always redo them too, though.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Cramulus on December 20, 2011, 03:35:09 pm
10.  It is my opinion that it's time to revise the banning rules.  Someone like infinity shock or DECI4 who is obviously only here to shit all over everything should not be given the ability to do so just so we can be all self-righteous about our policies as compared to theirs.  I am not in favor of being allowed to go all Mol on people because they made me all butthurt, but neither do I see any point in allowing a shitneck to derail the entire fucking boards so we can wank off to our own virtue.  I'm not proposing a specific policy here, just proposing that the current policy isn't working well.  It's also something that should be discussed by the board at large, not just the admins.

I'm iffy on this because we often have trouble distinguishing actual trolls from people who just suck.


deci4 and infinityshock sucked, but they weren't a big deal, no? They made less than 75 posts (combined), right? And in all of those cases, if we just ignored them instead of flaming them (which is what they want), they'd lose interest and go away.


I also think the measures we've already taken against those dudes are, in the long run, more effective than banning.



Just my two cents.
  I could be convinced otherwise, and I'm open minded about changing our policy- but that's my opinion as it stands now.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 03:36:01 pm
Lastly, I would humbly suggest that there might be a bit of a cult of personality that has developed around this place that makes the dynamics challenging at times.  Whether anyone cares to admit to it or not, there is definitely a popular pecking order around these parts, and you can even see it demonstrated in this thread.  Now, perhaps the rest of the board is cool with this, I can only assume they are since it's happened.  ECH in another thread said something about changing this place to the TGRRandNIGEL.com board or something, and it was a one off joke, but there is a nugget of truth to that, I think.  

Sure, cast that criticism aside as "whining".  But it's the goddamned truth and I know I'm not the only one that has made that observation.  But, that's just the way the board has evolved, and I don't think that is something where you can just wave a magic wand and undo it, and I'm not necessarily suggesting it should be undone.  But it IS a characteristic of this board.  It just is.  

I've adapted, I can roll with it.  I personally don't give a fuck about Tucson, I don't give a fuck about Portland, I don't give a fuck about Mr. Language, or what happens at the power plant.  And I'm sure you guys could give a fuck about what happens in my office.  I originally came here for the Discordia, but that doesn't really seem to happen much anymore.  Now, I come for a little fun every now and again to break up the monotony of my day.  So I'll just make my own little Discordia.  

Anyway, take those musings for what you think they are worth.  

So... people with strong personalities, opinions and a high rate of posting should stop?

Yeah, that'll really improve the board.

Are people still allowed to criticize other people's behavior, or is that to be verboten too?

Oh wait, I almost forgot; we're just toys to you. A sociological experiment. Carry on.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Demolition_Squid on December 20, 2011, 03:36:24 pm
I have no problem having passionate exchanges on topics.  Lord knows I've been involved in many outside of the drug debates.  In fact, I still remember my first throw-down which was actually with LMNO.  It went on for pages and pages, and was pretty heated, but he didn't attack me personally and vice versa.  We survived and he's one of the posters I admire most on this site.  But where I do have the problem is when it gets personal and posters are attacked personally.  And I'm not just talking about me but I've seen it happen in other fights with other long-time members. 

So I think one thing we ALL can do to make things better around here is to acknowledge that we don't go THERE.  We put 110% into our opinion on whatever the topic may be but we don't go THERE and attack the person.  I think that could go a long way to making this place more conducive to information exchange and content. 

Khara said it well too:

Quote
the criticism ... to take it or give it with any grace or maturity


This, totally this.

I don't see a lot of helpful critique and useful feedback loops anymore. Well, people are really critical, but it is typically served with a side of mockery and judgment, which is pretty much guarantees the rest of the thread is an attack/defense and no information is exchanged.

It's not just Nigel and Roger, it's all over the board. Just the other week I was shocked to see LMNO drop a  (paraphrasing) "YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD" on our old friend Iptuous over some insignificant difference of opinion. Or that trans kid explaining why he's thankful for his unique reality tunnel, and it turned into LOOK AT WHAT A MAGICAL AND UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE YOU ARE. It's really low quality "discussion", definitely not "jailbreaking". It's hard for me to read threads like that and go "Yeah, these are my people. I want to share all sorts of interesting things with them."

We can all agree this is a risky environment for unpopular ideas. Everything gets so intense and personal and judgmental. Quick on the trigger. If you're wondering why people don't post as much, a big factor is because of the hostile atmosphere. If it it weren't so pissy, I think there'd be more/better threads. It's made us insular.

A snapshot of the problem: Our eyes move in an F pattern when we read a post. (myself included) You read the first line, then you scan down the side, then you go back and pick out the one thing that you disagree with, and respond to that. That's not limited to PD, it's all over the internet, but it's gotten markedly worse here. Recently I've felt like a lot of our threads have the same tone as youtube comments, albeit with better vocabulary/grammar.




tl;dr summary:
           PD in 2011: "Get TUFF, Get ZEN, or GTFO
                                      ... where'd everybody go?"


It makes sense if you think about it;

The site became more about personalities and the people behind the screen, so the discussion became personal and judgemental in a way it wasn't when it was more about ideas in general.

I think Roger's (and others) point about ideas stagnating and we having reached 'consensus' may ring true, on some level. It doesn't help that things seem to have coalesced around relatively depressing conclusions. I don't believe that the future is necessarily one of doom and gloom (although I certainly think we're heading that way...), what I'd like to do, is try and shake things up in myself so I can see ways out.

If I had to use one word to sum up the zeitgeist of the modern age, it is 'trapped'. We're trapped in obligations to work, to our ties to money, in our jobs or lack of them. It is hard to feel completely free, and although we search for our elusive slack, I don't think any of us get it very often, do we?

Maybe that'll be my project for 2012. Curly's Hunt for Slack was fun to write. CAN we help each other find it out there in realspace?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 03:38:09 pm
YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 03:41:00 pm
Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Demolition_Squid on December 20, 2011, 03:47:43 pm
YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?

You're being unfair. I called him on it, he gave a non-aggressive answer which had some actually good points.

Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

That's the trouble, isn't it? We all work ridiculously hard just to stand still. I forget who, but someone earlier said we need to bring the mirth back to Discordia, and I think there's definitely truth there. I'd like to laugh regularly, not just until I'm screaming.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 03:52:31 pm
YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?

You're being unfair. I called him on it, he gave a non-aggressive answer which had some actually good points.

Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

That's the trouble, isn't it? We all work ridiculously hard just to stand still. I forget who, but someone earlier said we need to bring the mirth back to Discordia, and I think there's definitely truth there. I'd like to laugh regularly, not just until I'm screaming.

Looking around, there isn't a whole lot of the regular kind of mirth available.  Our governments are turning into something unspeakable, our populations think this is a good thing, and even the people who should know better spend all their time pulling up planks from the bottom of the lifeboat to hit each other with.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 03:53:45 pm
It's not just Nigel and Roger, it's all over the board. Just the other week I was shocked to see LMNO drop a  (paraphrasing) "YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD" on our old friend Iptuous over some insignificant difference of opinion. Or that trans kid explaining why he's thankful for his unique reality tunnel, and it turned into LOOK AT WHAT A MAGICAL AND UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE YOU ARE. It's really low quality "discussion", definitely not "jailbreaking". It's hard for me to read threads like that and go "Yeah, these are my people. I want to share all sorts of interesting things with them."

Well, then.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 20, 2011, 03:55:24 pm
Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

Quote from: Melvin Udall
I'm drowning here, and you're describing the water!

Feeling trapped is a perfectly natural reaction to the human condition. Trapped on too many levels to even begin to describe. But that hasn't stopped this board from describing a few new ways anyway. Or framing some in new ways at least. (BIP to name but one)

Thing is it's only trapped if you see it that way. Easy for me to say but that's downplaying how hard it actually is. A lot of the negative crit on this board seems to me like a lot of the negative crit I see IRL. "You can't X because of constraint Y"

Sometimes this is real - You cant fly because of gravity/lack of wings

Sometimes it's bullshit and based on constraints the critic has imposed on themself.

The bugbear topics - Drugs, Magqiweke, Anarchy

The longer the board goes on and the more consensus is enforced by the hooting an hollering the more trapped we become. Eventually complete stagnation is inevitable* All constraints true - nothing is possible.







* no, not really. That's just an example of a false constraint.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 03:55:59 pm
YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?

You're being unfair. I called him on it, he gave a non-aggressive answer which had some actually good points.

Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

That's the trouble, isn't it? We all work ridiculously hard just to stand still. I forget who, but someone earlier said we need to bring the mirth back to Discordia, and I think there's definitely truth there. I'd like to laugh regularly, not just until I'm screaming.

Looking around, there isn't a whole lot of the regular kind of mirth available.  Our governments are turning into something unspeakable, our populations think this is a good thing, and even the people who should know better spend all their time pulling up planks from the bottom of the lifeboat to hit each other with.

So what's the best way to make mirth in these times? And are there still ways to do it in ways that make subtle alterations to the machine?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 03:57:55 pm
So what's the best way to make mirth in these times? And are there still ways to do it in ways that make subtle alterations to the machine?

Apparently, I am unqualified to answer that.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Demolition_Squid on December 20, 2011, 03:59:38 pm
YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?

You're being unfair. I called him on it, he gave a non-aggressive answer which had some actually good points.

Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

That's the trouble, isn't it? We all work ridiculously hard just to stand still. I forget who, but someone earlier said we need to bring the mirth back to Discordia, and I think there's definitely truth there. I'd like to laugh regularly, not just until I'm screaming.

Looking around, there isn't a whole lot of the regular kind of mirth available.  Our governments are turning into something unspeakable, our populations think this is a good thing, and even the people who should know better spend all their time pulling up planks from the bottom of the lifeboat to hit each other with.

You're right, of course.

But politics isn't everything. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these things are good, or even acceptable, but if we just spend all our time staring at politics, we're going to become suicidally depressed. We need some sort of balance, I think, if we want to breathe new life and new ideas into the place.

So what's the best way to make mirth in these times? And are there still ways to do it in ways that make subtle alterations to the machine?

Apparently, I am unqualified to answer that.

Not sure where you got this from, but I hope you appreciate the irony in that you raised issues, people largely agreed with you (though you must surely have expected some disagreement), and now you are getting defensive.

Just saying.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 04:00:06 pm
YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?

You're being unfair. I called him on it, he gave a non-aggressive answer which had some actually good points.

His post came a fair bit before your post, so I hadn't got to it yet when I replied. I appreciated that you also saw that and were willing to say so.

And yes, I might be being unfair, but to be a little fair for a moment, he's been taking potshots at me for months. If not years. So pardon me if I'm slightly perturbed that he's once again turning an unrelated thread into "taking jabs at Nigel".
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Cain on December 20, 2011, 04:01:37 pm
"An army that waits is soon an army at war with itself."
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Faust on December 20, 2011, 04:02:54 pm

So... people with strong personalities, opinions and a high rate of posting should stop?


Yes they should reduce their posting, unless they want to end up on their own posting to an audience that does not exist. No one wants to read endless posts by one person
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: LMNO on December 20, 2011, 04:03:21 pm
Quote from: Cram
I was shocked to see LMNO drop a  (paraphrasing) "YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD" on our old friend Iptuous over some insignificant difference of opinion.

1. I was drunk.
2. I have a very quick temper when it comes to implications of homophobia.  
3. The issue more or less resolved itself in the light of the next day.
4. Ipt, if I haven't explicitly said it, I apologize for going off the rails like that.
5. Profit?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 04:04:03 pm
Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

Quote from: Melvin Udall
I'm drowning here, and you're describing the water!

Feeling trapped is a perfectly natural reaction to the human condition. Trapped on too many levels to even begin to describe. But that hasn't stopped this board from describing a few new ways anyway. Or framing some in new ways at least. (BIP to name but one)

Thing is it's only trapped if you see it that way. Easy for me to say but that's downplaying how hard it actually is. A lot of the negative crit on this board seems to me like a lot of the negative crit I see IRL. "You can't X because of constraint Y"

Sometimes this is real - You cant fly because of gravity/lack of wings

Sometimes it's bullshit and based on constraints the critic has imposed on themself.

The bugbear topics - Drugs, Magqiweke, Anarchy

The longer the board goes on and the more consensus is enforced by the hooting an hollering the more trapped we become. Eventually complete stagnation is inevitable* All constraints true - nothing is possible.







* no, not really. That's just an example of a false constraint.

If I get what you're saying, it's that to a degree, we've imposed this sense of stagnation upon ourselves.

I agree that having some debate and making arguments for and against something would make this place more robust, and generate some interesting ideas, is that the problem is is that they always seem to come back to those bugbears that you're talking about (add libertarianism to the list).

So what else can we talk about that we can disagree about?

Also in response, yeah, the IRL feeling of being stuck is partially self-imposed as well, but I think that quite a few of us have that, and it's affecting us here.

Open Bar is a prime example of that- it became a place where we all just posted the minutiae of our lives, and drained the energy from the rest of the board. We got used to complaining about ourselves and our lives instead of coming here as an outlet, or to find a place to collaborate on stuff that might pull us out of this stuck feeling.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 04:05:25 pm
So what's the best way to make mirth in these times? And are there still ways to do it in ways that make subtle alterations to the machine?

Apparently, I am unqualified to answer that.

Well, I asked the question and made no indication to say that you were unqualified. So I value your input as I would anyone else's.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 04:05:44 pm
So far we've established that the problem is more than just Roger and Nigel, (I mean, obviously the problem is Roger and Nigel, but they're not the only ones) and that part of fixing the problem is that Roger and Nigel should post less.

OK then.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 04:07:41 pm
Not sure where you got this from, but I hope you appreciate the irony in that you raised issues, people largely agreed with you (though you must surely have expected some disagreement), and now you are getting defensive.

Just saying.

"It's not just Roger and Nigel..."
- Cram

It is a given that Roger and Nigel are bad guys, apparently.  It goes without saying, it is blatantly obvious that we are going to be a large part of the problem.  It is because of us and those who act like us that Cram doesn't feel that we are a group he wants to be a part of.  WE ARE THE VILLAINS.  EVERY PROBLEM PD HAS IS DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF US AND OUR BAD INFLUENCE.  PERIOD.

I mean, I was being totally unreasonable when Cram said that a lot of my beliefs are "wankery".  I should have let Zenpeanut cry on my shoulder because of the vicious bigotry inherent in not being able to use the women's bathroom (which is right the fuck up there with Harvey Milk and Matthew Shepherd).  

You're right, I'm just being all defensive and shit.  Or words to that effect.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 04:08:19 pm
So far we've established that the problem is more than just Roger and Nigel, (I mean, obviously the problem is Roger and Nigel, but they're not the only ones) and that part of fixing the problem is that Roger and Nigel should post less.

OK then.

Yeah, for SCIENCE, I think we should test this hypothesis.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 04:09:19 pm
"An army that waits is soon an army at war with itself."

Yep.

As usual, Cain hits the nail on the fucking head.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 04:09:34 pm
"An army that waits is soon an army at war with itself."

I see your point, and I agree. My last effort didn't go so well though, so I was kind of hoping someone else would suggest a campaign.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 04:09:58 pm
So far we've established that the problem is more than just Roger and Nigel, (I mean, obviously the problem is Roger and Nigel, but they're not the only ones) and that part of fixing the problem is that Roger and Nigel should post less.

OK then.

Yeah, for SCIENCE, I think we should test this hypothesis.

For SCIENCE!
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: LMNO on December 20, 2011, 04:11:07 pm
[Insert polite request not to let the thread get bogged down in snark]


I think this site needs more collaboration.  We need to choose something on which we can work on, here, in real time as opposed to in real life.  

I'm not saying, "let's organize!"  I'm saying, "let's play with each other!"1

We don't have to make rules or labels, but we shouldn't do the equivalent of ranting to ourselves, either.









1
  :lmnuendo:
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Demolition_Squid on December 20, 2011, 04:11:31 pm
Not sure where you got this from, but I hope you appreciate the irony in that you raised issues, people largely agreed with you (though you must surely have expected some disagreement), and now you are getting defensive.

Just saying.

"It's not just Roger and Nigel..."
- Cram

It is a given that Roger and Nigel are bad guys, apparently.  It goes without saying, it is blatantly obvious that we are going to be a large part of the problem.  It is because of us and those who act like us that Cram doesn't feel that we are a group he wants to be a part of.  WE ARE THE VILLAINS.  EVERY PROBLEM PD HAS IS DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF US AND OUR BAD INFLUENCE.  PERIOD.

I mean, I was being totally unreasonable when Cram said that a lot of my beliefs are "wankery".  I should have let Zenpeanut cry on my shoulder because of the vicious bigotry inherent in not being able to use the women's bathroom (which is right the fuck up there with Harvey Milk and Matthew Shepherd).  

You're right, I'm just being all defensive and shit.  Or words to that effect.
So far we've established that the problem is more than just Roger and Nigel, (I mean, obviously the problem is Roger and Nigel, but they're not the only ones) and that part of fixing the problem is that Roger and Nigel should post less.

OK then.

What we've established is that part of the problem is that it feels like people are far too willing to jump straight to personal attacks. You and Roger are the most active posters on the board, and therefore have made the largest number of attacks.

Is this in some way surprising? Would either you or Roger not say that you are quick to attack people on a personal level? It is a fair criticism as far as I can see.

Also, the passive-aggressive 'ok then' responses are pretty frustrating after calling RWHN out for being passive-aggressive. Fair enough, nobody likes to be criticised, but if you want to actually discuss what the problems are, somewhere where you ARE to a large part invested in the atmosphere of the place, you shouldn't be surprised when people say 'well actually, I'd like it if you didn't do XYZ so much...'

Nowhere has anybody said you two are EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG WITH PD. What we've said is that we'd like to move away from certain behaviours.

Do you disagree with this? Can you please just say so if you do rather than demonstrating the point in the most frustrating way possible?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 04:13:04 pm
[Insert polite request not to let the thread get bogged down in snark]


I think this site needs more collaboration.  We need to choose something on which we can work on, here, in real time as opposed to in real life.  

I'm not saying, "let's organize!"  I'm saying, "let's play with each other!"1

We don't have to make rules or labels, but we shouldn't do the equivalent of ranting to ourselves, either.









1
  :lmnuendo:

Yes, I agree with this.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Demolition_Squid on December 20, 2011, 04:14:04 pm
[Insert polite request not to let the thread get bogged down in snark]


I think this site needs more collaboration.  We need to choose something on which we can work on, here, in real time as opposed to in real life.  

I'm not saying, "let's organize!"  I'm saying, "let's play with each other!"1

We don't have to make rules or labels, but we shouldn't do the equivalent of ranting to ourselves, either.









1
  :lmnuendo:

I would be psyched to work with you guys. I don't have as much free time as I'd like, but I'd be willing to throw my hat in where I can. I might even go trolling, even if it isn't my forte, if that is what people want to do.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Cramulus on December 20, 2011, 04:15:42 pm
Not sure where you got this from, but I hope you appreciate the irony in that you raised issues, people largely agreed with you (though you must surely have expected some disagreement), and now you are getting defensive.

Just saying.

"It's not just Roger and Nigel..."
- Cram

It is a given that Roger and Nigel are bad guys, apparently.  It goes without saying, it is blatantly obvious that we are going to be a large part of the problem.  It is because of us and those who act like us that Cram doesn't feel that we are a group he wants to be a part of.  WE ARE THE VILLAINS.  EVERY PROBLEM PD HAS IS DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF US AND OUR BAD INFLUENCE.  PERIOD.

I mean, I was being totally unreasonable when Cram said that a lot of my beliefs are "wankery".  I should have let Zenpeanut cry on my shoulder because of the vicious bigotry inherent in not being able to use the women's bathroom (which is right the fuck up there with Harvey Milk and Matthew Shepherd).  

You're right, I'm just being all defensive and shit.  Or words to that effect.

you know, my post was responding to RWHN's suggestion that you and nigel are a lion's share of the problem. The whole sentence goes "It's not just roger and nigel, it's everybody". Should I have said "It's everybody except roger and nigel?" I thought I was sticking up for you cats. Well I guess I didn't use enough e-prime, and now you're treating my post like a personal attack exclusively about you two. I await the beautiful fairy princess shtick to mock the suggestion that anybody should ever chill out. While you're working on that, I'll be on google reader.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 04:16:19 pm
Also, the passive-aggressive 'ok then' responses are pretty frustrating after calling RWHN out for being passive-aggressive.

That wasn't passive-aggressive, that was a bit of unwarranted shock and surprise.

I was honestly gobsmacked.  What the hell can you say to something like that?

I posted this thread in an attempt to find the root cause of the problems at PD.  Apparently, that root cause has been found.  Mission successful, even if it turned out that the root cause was me.

 :lulz:

Now, I'm a good maintenance man, always have been.  When troubleshooting a problem, you first must find the root cause of failure, and then address it.

Consider it addressed.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: hoopla on December 20, 2011, 04:16:24 pm
I think Roger's post is spot on, and I apologize for not posting more and better.  I tend to scan threads while my computer is automating other stuff, and I am largely distracted 95% of the time.  Really I shouldn't post at all, it isn't fair to the people who are here every day and paying full attention.... but I love you guys and can't stay away.  I even dream about you fuckers.  More often than I am willing to admit.

Let me just say this... if there WAS a RogerAndNigel.com... I would read it.  So there.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 04:17:16 pm
"An army that waits is soon an army at war with itself."

I see your point, and I agree. My last effort didn't go so well though, so I was kind of hoping someone else would suggest a campaign.

I guess part of it is that I'm largely not entertained by trolling campaigns. I see their value and think it's a necessary part of Discordia, but unless I'm delivering a quick thing like on Yahoo Answers, it's not really my trip. I guess I'm still feeling around for what division I belong in, to continue Cain's analogy.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Cain on December 20, 2011, 04:18:04 pm
I wasn't just talking about trolling.  To clarify.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 04:19:46 pm
Not sure where you got this from, but I hope you appreciate the irony in that you raised issues, people largely agreed with you (though you must surely have expected some disagreement), and now you are getting defensive.

Just saying.

"It's not just Roger and Nigel..."
- Cram

It is a given that Roger and Nigel are bad guys, apparently.  It goes without saying, it is blatantly obvious that we are going to be a large part of the problem.  It is because of us and those who act like us that Cram doesn't feel that we are a group he wants to be a part of.  WE ARE THE VILLAINS.  EVERY PROBLEM PD HAS IS DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF US AND OUR BAD INFLUENCE.  PERIOD.

I mean, I was being totally unreasonable when Cram said that a lot of my beliefs are "wankery".  I should have let Zenpeanut cry on my shoulder because of the vicious bigotry inherent in not being able to use the women's bathroom (which is right the fuck up there with Harvey Milk and Matthew Shepherd).  

You're right, I'm just being all defensive and shit.  Or words to that effect.

you know, my post was responding to RWHN's suggestion that you and nigel are a lion's share of the problem. The whole sentence goes "It's not just roger and nigel, it's everybody". Should I have said "It's everybody except roger and nigel?" I thought I was sticking up for you cats. Well I guess I didn't use enough e-prime, and now you're treating my post like a personal attack exclusively about you two. I await the beautiful fairy princess shtick to mock the suggestion that anybody should ever chill out. While you're working on that, I'll be on google reader.

This is how I read your post, too.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 04:21:05 pm
I think Roger's post is spot on, and I apologize for not posting more and better.  I tend to scan threads while my computer is automating other stuff, and I am largely distracted 95% of the time.  Really I shouldn't post at all, it isn't fair to the people who are here every day and paying full attention.... but I love you guys and can't stay away.  I even dream about you fuckers.  More often than I am willing to admit.

Let me just say this... if there WAS a RogerAndNigel.com... I would read it.  So there.

Yep. Telarus showed up in one of mine a couple of nights ago.

As would I.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Faust on December 20, 2011, 04:21:36 pm
It would be nice if this thread doesn't devolve into the same bitching we've seen, it doesn't help and we've seen the exact same thing several times before.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 04:22:46 pm
I wasn't just talking about trolling.  To clarify.

I figured. But trolling is probably the most common outward activity here.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 04:22:55 pm
I don't think I'm all that easy to offend, but I am pretty offended right now.

Maybe PD should make double-posting against the rules. Most often, I only do that in threads when I missed all the action and want to comment on multiple posts that happened while I was off. I did it quite a bit in Open bar, because I figured, who the hell cares, anyway?

As far as personal attacks, I may attack an idea, I may attack a behavior, but I am generally careful not to attack a person, with an exception; I have a long memory for people who have called me a bitch or a slut, or pulled out the "I don't like you, personally" card, and I don't apply my normal rules to those people. Unless they apologize, in which case it's starting from scratch.

But anyway. I am not interested in defending myself, here.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Demolition_Squid on December 20, 2011, 04:23:34 pm
Also, the passive-aggressive 'ok then' responses are pretty frustrating after calling RWHN out for being passive-aggressive.

That wasn't passive-aggressive, that was a bit of unwarranted shock and surprise.

I was honestly gobsmacked.  What the hell can you say to something like that?

I posted this thread in an attempt to find the root cause of the problems at PD.  Apparently, that root cause has been found.  Mission successful, even if it turned out that the root cause was me.

 :lulz:

Now, I'm a good maintenance man, always have been.  When troubleshooting a problem, you first must find the root cause of failure, and then address it.

Consider it addressed.

I'm not sure how to respond to this post as you seem intent on making me paint you as the villain when that has never been the intent of anything I've posted.

If the responses genuinely weren't meant as passive-aggressive, I apologize; that's how it came across to me.

You yourself said, however;

Quote from: TGGR
3.  On that note, emotes are not an acceptable substitute for conversation.  Mittens are not a reply, they are an indication that either the person didn't read the post (in which case, why answer?), or that the post didn't have anything that stood out (in which case you should say so).  We are NOT here to uncritically accept the work of our peers, but to comment, discuss, tear apart (if need be), etc, the work in question.  

All that anyone is saying is we would like to tear apart the work, without tearing apart the people.

I'm sorry you seem to think that it is meant as an attack on you. I don't think anyone, with the possible exception of RWHN, meant it as such. I don't see how this is such a controversial idea, myself.

(Editted to fix quoting fail)
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Demolition_Squid on December 20, 2011, 04:26:08 pm
I don't think I'm all that easy to offend, but I am pretty offended right now.

Maybe PD should make double-posting against the rules. Most often, I only do that in threads when I missed all the action and want to comment on multiple posts that happened while I was off. I did it quite a bit in Open bar, because I figured, who the hell cares, anyway?

As far as personal attacks, I may attack an idea, I may attack a behavior, but I am generally careful not to attack a person, with an exception; I have a long memory for people who have called me a bitch or a slut, or pulled out the "I don't like you, personally" card, and I don't apply my normal rules to those people. Unless they apologize, in which case it's starting from scratch.

But anyway. I am not interested in defending myself, here.

I'm sorry, I honestly tend to associate you with being fairly willing to rip into someone if they've got on your bad side. You should not feel like you need to defend yourself, because this is supposed to be a constructive thread.

If you don't do the behaviour that is being complained about; fantastic! Just keep on not doing it, and presumably things will get better. I apologize if I've mischaracterized you in any way, it was not my intent.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 04:27:10 pm
It would be nice if this thread doesn't devolve into the same bitching we've seen, it doesn't help and we've seen the exact same thing several times before.

This. Threads like this always make me perk up and start wagging my tail, and then it gets bogged down in stuff that really has nothing to do with it, and is based off of one person either saying something potentially inflammatory without clarification or second thought or misreading someone else's post, or both.

I'd like to keep wagging my tail this time.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 04:28:33 pm
All that anyone is saying is we would like to tear apart the work, without tearing apart the people.

I'm sorry you seem to think that it is meant as an attack on you. I don't think anyone, with the possible exception of RWHN, meant it as such. I don't see how this is such a controversial idea, myself.

Gonna digest shit for a bit, try to see things the way you're seeing them, decide if I want to carry on with this Discordian thing.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Faust on December 20, 2011, 04:31:14 pm
Maybe PD should make double-posting against the rules. Most often, I only do that in threads when I missed all the action and want to comment on multiple posts that happened while I was off. I did it quite a bit in Open bar, because I figured, who the hell cares, anyway?

I wouldn't really say that double posting is what I was describing, it's merely that a large majority of replies made to a thread are generally made by the same handful of people. Every thread gets a back and forth with a couple of people, especially on later pages, and that's good to encourage, but it would be nice to see that more with a larger group of people.
And even with that back and forth, someone else might make a response and be completely ignored because it's in the middle of that kind of thing, seeing more discussion of those posts that get left behind would instantly make threads more interesting.

Bear in mind, I'm not insulting anyone, this is entirely based on my subjective experience of the forum, everyone gets something different from each thread, it's just something I've noticed as a common trend.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 04:34:53 pm
I don't think I'm all that easy to offend, but I am pretty offended right now.

Maybe PD should make double-posting against the rules. Most often, I only do that in threads when I missed all the action and want to comment on multiple posts that happened while I was off. I did it quite a bit in Open bar, because I figured, who the hell cares, anyway?

As far as personal attacks, I may attack an idea, I may attack a behavior, but I am generally careful not to attack a person, with an exception; I have a long memory for people who have called me a bitch or a slut, or pulled out the "I don't like you, personally" card, and I don't apply my normal rules to those people. Unless they apologize, in which case it's starting from scratch.

But anyway. I am not interested in defending myself, here.

I'm sorry, I honestly tend to associate you with being fairly willing to rip into someone if they've got on your bad side. You should not feel like you need to defend yourself, because this is supposed to be a constructive thread.

If you don't do the behaviour that is being complained about; fantastic! Just keep on not doing it, and presumably things will get better. I apologize if I've mischaracterized you in any way, it was not my intent.

In my opinion, which is not humble, the main reason for that is because most people, even intelligent people, cannot tell the difference between someone calling their idea idiotic, and calling them idiotic. Or the difference between someone telling them that their behavior is childish, and calling them a childish person.

Fuck, there is one poster here (used to be a couple of them) who seems to feel personally attacked when nobody's even talking about them. And I usually get the blame, because I am apparently just that bad of a person.

Anyway, I'm going to go cool my heels and soothe my bruised feelings for a while.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 04:35:31 pm
I'm not sure how to respond to this post as you seem intent on making me paint you as the villain when that has never been the intent of anything I've posted.

Wasn't talking about you.  I was talking about the people who don't feel that I - or we (either Nigel and I, or the board at large) - are worthy of being people they'd like to associate with.

Maybe this is more what they want:

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=31075.0

Who the fuck knows?

I don't know what the fuck I want to do right now, so I'm not going to do anything.  I'll be back when I get my head straight.  Or not.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 04:46:27 pm
Okay, it's not "or not".

I'm just having a little trouble dealing with the notion that someone I respect doesn't want to be associated with me.

Still cogitating.  More coherent response later.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 04:46:54 pm
I wasn't just talking about trolling.  To clarify.

I figured. But trolling is probably the most common outward activity here.

This might be a good idea to riff on. Not everyone's cut out for trolling but would still like to be a part of something.

How can we encourage more activity in O:MF?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 04:50:20 pm
Okay, it's not "or not".

I'm just having a little trouble dealing with the notion that someone I respect doesn't want to be associated with me.

Still cogitating.  More coherent response later.

I don't think I caught any post here suggesting that someone you respect doesn't want to associate with you.

If you're talking about Cram, I'm pretty sure what he meant was that the pointless drama that we often see here makes it difficult for him to connect to Discordia, not anyone specifically.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 04:52:45 pm
Okay, it's not "or not".

I'm just having a little trouble dealing with the notion that someone I respect doesn't want to be associated with me.

Still cogitating.  More coherent response later.

I don't think I caught any post here suggesting that someone you respect doesn't want to associate with you.

If you're talking about Cram, I'm pretty sure what he meant was that the pointless drama that we often see here makes it difficult for him to connect to Discordia, not anyone specifically.

I don't see how that makes a difference.  We have failed to live up to certain standards.

Some change needs to take place, at least as far as I myself am concerned.  I do not yet know what that change has to be, so I need to think about it some more.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 04:56:10 pm
I wasn't just talking about trolling.  To clarify.

I figured. But trolling is probably the most common outward activity here.

This might be a good idea to riff on. Not everyone's cut out for trolling but would still like to be a part of something.

How can we encourage more activity in O:MF?

Start a thread there on this. I don't have time right now, but I can dump some ideas later.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 05:02:44 pm
Okay, it's not "or not".

I'm just having a little trouble dealing with the notion that someone I respect doesn't want to be associated with me.

Still cogitating.  More coherent response later.

I don't think I caught any post here suggesting that someone you respect doesn't want to associate with you.

If you're talking about Cram, I'm pretty sure what he meant was that the pointless drama that we often see here makes it difficult for him to connect to Discordia, not anyone specifically.

I don't see how that makes a difference.  We have failed to live up to certain standards.

Some change needs to take place, at least as far as I myself am concerned.  I do not yet know what that change has to be, so I need to think about it some more.

I can see the difference. It's not a failing to living up to certain standards, it's just a weariness with certain aspects of the board seeming a bit overwhelming and drowning out the good bits.

This thread is a prime example. This is a good thread. But now there's a lot of drama going on now because RWHN said something stupid and didn't bother to complete his thought right away so that it looked like an ad hominem attack.

And you're not the only one who thought he was just shitting on you and Nigel. I did too, and wanted to tell him to STFU unless he planned to contribute to the thread. Because I'm annoyed that these threads always get derailed too. Turns out he wasn't being a complete asshole, but that soured the mood for the whole thread thus far.

And he was defending you, after all. A lot of PD drama involves you and Nigel because someone else always starts shit with you. That doesn't mean the drama's your fault, or hers, nor does it mean that Cram is even suggesting that.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 05:04:39 pm
I wasn't just talking about trolling.  To clarify.

I figured. But trolling is probably the most common outward activity here.

This might be a good idea to riff on. Not everyone's cut out for trolling but would still like to be a part of something.

How can we encourage more activity in O:MF?

Start a thread there on this. I don't have time right now, but I can dump some ideas later.

Ok cool.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 05:23:15 pm
Anyway, I shouldn't be putting words in Cram's mouth, as I'm sure he can explain himself and his posts well enough on his own, and who knows, I may be way off. That's just how I interpreted what he said, and don't consider it as saying that he doesn't want to associate with you. I guess it just bothers me, because you two are friends, and I consider you both friends as well.


For the record, I would like to continue associating with most of the people on PD, including you.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 05:31:26 pm
YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?

You're being unfair. I called him on it, he gave a non-aggressive answer which had some actually good points.

Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

That's the trouble, isn't it? We all work ridiculously hard just to stand still. I forget who, but someone earlier said we need to bring the mirth back to Discordia, and I think there's definitely truth there. I'd like to laugh regularly, not just until I'm screaming.

Found it.

In fact, I wonder if what the board needs in general is more mirth*. We might be just about all horrored out. The tone is bitter lately, and jaded... and for good reason. I mean, look at this fucking world. But we're IN it, and now that what we've been predicting for so long is actually going down, maybe we need something else to make this an island of sanity in the sea of insanity?

I know I've had about enough of bitterness.










*Not just silliness. Funniness.


Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 20, 2011, 05:33:23 pm

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.


I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.

If you have fun doing them, do them.  Just don't do them because it's "tradition" or any shit like that.  I typically go 6 months without WOMPING, then dump a dozen at once.  Likewise, I may not stop ranting, but I am no longer going to rant because I feel its expected of me, etc (funny how you get weird delusions of grandeur, ain't it?).

And Paes, I agree:  The mittens emote needs to die a horrible fucking death.

We haven't been using it correctly for years now anyway. It was supposed to be given to someone who performed a spectacular act of ownage, not just as general acclaim.

For those who weren't around before the great regime change, the mittens emote was originally the "W" in "owned!"
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 05:35:21 pm

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.


I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.

If you have fun doing them, do them.  Just don't do them because it's "tradition" or any shit like that.  I typically go 6 months without WOMPING, then dump a dozen at once.  Likewise, I may not stop ranting, but I am no longer going to rant because I feel its expected of me, etc (funny how you get weird delusions of grandeur, ain't it?).

And Paes, I agree:  The mittens emote needs to die a horrible fucking death.

We haven't been using it correctly for years now anyway. It was supposed to be given to someone who performed a spectacular act of ownage, not just as general acclaim.

For those who weren't around before the great regime change, the mittens emote was originally the "W" in "owned!"

That actually makes a lot more sense now.

Providing that it doesn't get the boot, I will try to only use it in that context from now on.

What about fuck mittens?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 20, 2011, 06:03:18 pm
Okay, it's not "or not".

I'm just having a little trouble dealing with the notion that someone I respect doesn't want to be associated with me.

Still cogitating.  More coherent response later.

I don't think I caught any post here suggesting that someone you respect doesn't want to associate with you.

If you're talking about Cram, I'm pretty sure what he meant was that the pointless drama that we often see here makes it difficult for him to connect to Discordia, not anyone specifically.

I don't see how that makes a difference.  We have failed to live up to certain standards.

Some change needs to take place, at least as far as I myself am concerned.  I do not yet know what that change has to be, so I need to think about it some more.

I can see the difference. It's not a failing to living up to certain standards, it's just a weariness with certain aspects of the board seeming a bit overwhelming and drowning out the good bits.

This thread is a prime example. This is a good thread. But now there's a lot of drama going on now because RWHN said something stupid and didn't bother to complete his thought right away so that it looked like an ad hominem attack.

And you're not the only one who thought he was just shitting on you and Nigel. I did too, and wanted to tell him to STFU unless he planned to contribute to the thread. Because I'm annoyed that these threads always get derailed too. Turns out he wasn't being a complete asshole, but that soured the mood for the whole thread thus far.

And he was defending you, after all. A lot of PD drama involves you and Nigel because someone else always starts shit with you. That doesn't mean the drama's your fault, or hers, nor does it mean that Cram is even suggesting that.

Said it as well or better than I could have.

I have to admit, it took ALOT of restraint for me to not respond to RWHN's initial post ITT publicly, but doing so would have just been feeding into what we're all explicitly talking about trying to avoid.

In the spirit of fair critique, though, it would have been alot better if nobody else had responded to that post either. If we're not going to feed into idiots like DECI4 or Infinityshock's little parades of idiocy we should stick to that resolve even if the poster in question has been here doing that crap for years.

As for the original 10 ideas, I find value in almost all of them, even the ones I might not explicitly agree with 100%, and there are several that I do agree with 100% (or near enough as to make no effective difference).

However...

I am going to draw the line at revising the banning rules. As Cram said, the measures we already have to deal with people like that seem to be sufficient, and the first line of defense, as always, is to just not feed the trolls.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 06:07:18 pm
I am going to draw the line at revising the banning rules. As Cram said, the measures we already have to deal with people like that seem to be sufficient, and the first line of defense, as always, is to just not feed the trolls.

Oh, sure.  I didn't expect that to gain much traction, because who polices the police, right?  It was just an idle thought, based on the extremely low quality of counter-trolling we experienced from totse2.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Cain on December 20, 2011, 06:11:16 pm
I think the semi-formal semi-ad hoc system we use for dealing with such people we have right now works fairly well:

if its obvious someone is here for no other reason than to troll, and
if they are trolling badly, and
if an admin proposes that they be banned not because of a personal vendetta but because of general suckitude and waste of server space, and
if no other admin can come up with a good reason to object

Then we flush the fucker out the airlock in the most amusing or personally satisfying means to hand.

I believe these standards are somewhat similar to those which will land you on the US assassination list, but I can live with that.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 06:43:47 pm
Lastly, I would humbly suggest that there might be a bit of a cult of personality that has developed around this place that makes the dynamics challenging at times.

Whose fault is that?  Should Nigel and I stop posting?  Should we maybe turn the mind control lasers down a bit?  What?  I mean, I'd think that someone worried about that might try to make this the board they want it to be.  I have never used my admin status to enforce my personal opinion, and I never will.  That being the case, there's nothing here that makes me any more influential than you.

It's nobody's fault, per se.  It's just the way it has evolved.  Should you stop posting?  Of course the fuck not.  And I said pretty clearly that I am not suggesting that even if the dynamic could change that it should change.  I'm just pointing out what I feel and what I observe.  If I'm in the minority, which clearly I am, I'm in the minority.  But I'm still going to voice my opinion just like everyone else. 

Quote
Because whether you want to see it or not, that particular dynamic between those two is part of why, for better or for worse, the board is what it is today.  Look at the Discordianism v SubG thread.  Look at how they snarked at Cram for expressing an opinion.  Why the fuck would anyone want to discuss anything contrary to THEIR opinion if that's the way it's going to go?  It IS content killer. 

Um, so, Nigel and I are not allowed to an express an opinion?  Or are you suggesting that Cram can snark and we can't?  Or perhaps you are saying Cram can't speak up for himself?  I might have missed it, but I didn't see you diving in to take up his cause at the time.

No, you're right, I didn't.  I wanted to.  In fact I started composing a post and then stopped.  I regret not stepping in and saying something. 

Quote
Besides, as you have said at least twice, we exist only for your entertainment.  I fail to see the problem.

Uh, no.  I said I come here for entertainment.  I don't get out of this sight what I did when I first joined.  I don't feel the same camaraderie, I don't feel the same energy.  It doesn't call to me anymore to jump in and produce content.  So, I come here for a few nyuks during down time at work and to hang out with a few spags I like.   
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 06:48:01 pm
I have no problem having passionate exchanges on topics.  Lord knows I've been involved in many outside of the drug debates.  In fact, I still remember my first throw-down which was actually with LMNO.  It went on for pages and pages, and was pretty heated, but he didn't attack me personally and vice versa.  We survived and he's one of the posters I admire most on this site.  But where I do have the problem is when it gets personal and posters are attacked personally.  And I'm not just talking about me but I've seen it happen in other fights with other long-time members. 

So I think one thing we ALL can do to make things better around here is to acknowledge that we don't go THERE.  We put 110% into our opinion on whatever the topic may be but we don't go THERE and attack the person.  I think that could go a long way to making this place more conducive to information exchange and content. 

Khara said it well too:

Quote
the criticism ... to take it or give it with any grace or maturity


This, totally this.

I don't see a lot of helpful critique and useful feedback loops anymore. Well, people are really critical, but it is typically served with a side of mockery and judgment, which is pretty much guarantees the rest of the thread is an attack/defense and no information is exchanged.

It's not just Nigel and Roger, it's all over the board. Just the other week I was shocked to see LMNO drop a  (paraphrasing) "YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD" on our old friend Iptuous over some insignificant difference of opinion. Or that trans kid explaining why he's thankful for his unique reality tunnel, and it turned into LOOK AT WHAT A MAGICAL AND UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE YOU ARE. It's really low quality "discussion", definitely not "jailbreaking". It's hard for me to read threads like that and go "Yeah, these are my people. I want to share all sorts of interesting things with them."

We can all agree this is a risky environment for unpopular ideas. Everything gets so intense and personal and judgmental. Quick on the trigger. If you're wondering why people don't post as much, a big factor is because of the hostile atmosphere. If it it weren't so pissy, I think there'd be more/better threads. It's made us insular.

A snapshot of the problem: Our eyes move in an F pattern when we read a post. (myself included) You read the first line, then you scan down the side, then you go back and pick out the one thing that you disagree with, and respond to that. That's not limited to PD, it's all over the internet, but it's gotten markedly worse here. Recently I've felt like a lot of our threads have the same tone as youtube comments, albeit with better vocabulary/grammar.




tl;dr summary:
           PD in 2011: "Get TUFF, Get ZEN, or GTFO
                                      ... where'd everybody go?"


You're right.  It isn't just Rog and Nigel.  Everybody contributes to this place which means everyone contributes to the overall dynamic.  As I've laid out before, I humbly suggest a bit more respect for posters we disagree with.  You can vehemently disagree but you can do that without getting personal. 

Yeah, I'm a monkey, I am still pissed for being called a fraud and I've yet to receive any apologies from anyone who contributed to that.  It does piss me off as a long time contributor to this place.  Yes, I still have some animosity towards the particular individuals who participated in that.  But I think the concerns I raised are still valid.  But of course I'm just one small voice amongst many. 
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 06:57:00 pm
All that anyone is saying is we would like to tear apart the work, without tearing apart the people.

I'm sorry you seem to think that it is meant as an attack on you. I don't think anyone, with the possible exception of RWHN, meant it as such. I don't see how this is such a controversial idea, myself.

It's not an attack on anyone.  It is an honest observation.  I mean, is it really that big a deal to ask people to be respectful to each other? 
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Luna on December 20, 2011, 07:01:34 pm
Nobody is "one small voice" around here.

People react to what's posted, whether it's you, or any of a dozen "big guns" I could name, or if it's one of the brain dead trolls we get.  

Do I post every time I see something I disagree with?  Nope.  Sometimes it's because I can't articulate an argument (which tells me I need to rethink my position), and others, it's because I can see there's not going to be changing somebody's mind.

But, agree or disagree, I try to listen... even to, maybe ESPECIALLY to, the ones I disagree with.

I don't need a mirror.  There's one on the bathroom wall.  I'm here to challenge myself to think differently, to think better.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BabylonHoruv on December 20, 2011, 07:46:43 pm
I have no problem having passionate exchanges on topics.  Lord knows I've been involved in many outside of the drug debates.  In fact, I still remember my first throw-down which was actually with LMNO.  It went on for pages and pages, and was pretty heated, but he didn't attack me personally and vice versa.  We survived and he's one of the posters I admire most on this site.  But where I do have the problem is when it gets personal and posters are attacked personally.  And I'm not just talking about me but I've seen it happen in other fights with other long-time members. 

So I think one thing we ALL can do to make things better around here is to acknowledge that we don't go THERE.  We put 110% into our opinion on whatever the topic may be but we don't go THERE and attack the person.  I think that could go a long way to making this place more conducive to information exchange and content. 

I would agree with this...

But then there are occasions where a personal attack is well deserved. The two off the top of my head are Babylon Horuv, and Triple Zero's fantastic takedown of Disco Pickle, both of which, in my opinion, richly deserve(d) what they got.

So I think overall it needs to be a bit more nuanced, and nobody should be saying 'no no personal attacks are always wrong always', but some awareness that it may be a contributing factor to the bigger problems is probably reasonable.

Yes I did, and will in the future repeatedly I am sure.

I do hope me being a shitbag doesn't meant that every time I post something it gets ignored on that basis though.  There are occasions when I have a unique perspective that is not simply wrongtarded.  That being said I think that with a few exceptions people do generally recognize those occasions when that happens.

I think the level of personal attacks that have been leveled at RWHN were out of line and detracted from the actual discussion at hand.  I doubt that is the only case of them being an obstacle to discussion but it is the one that I have noticed the most.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Juana on December 20, 2011, 08:16:46 pm
Other than this post, Babylon, I have taken up the policy of totally ignoring you. I have to really like the thread to even post if you're the last poster, because you're disgusting and bring the ick factor with you wherever you go (sorry, I'm generally all for "your kink is not my kink", but I draw the line at snuff, necrophilia, and pedophilia). Also, you say stupid shit far too often. Others have called you out on this far better than I (Nigel's response to "I used to know a teenage hooker who liked it!" for example), so I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 08:30:14 pm
Babylon, honestly, even reading your posts makes me kick myself for doing it, and I have never, ever seen you offer a "unique perspective" that was not wrongtarded. The few times I have seen you post anything that wasn't totally stupid, it has been to repeat what someone else said better a few posts prior. It is seriously hard to believe that someone as intellectually incompetent and generally repugnant as yourself can even exist, and every day I hope that you'll do something that might get you banned.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Phox on December 20, 2011, 11:19:02 pm
RWHN, in all seriousness, I wonder about your motivation for coming back.

I only left out of some weird paranoia linked to this job I've applied for.  I quickly realized that was a little wacky so I came back.  VOILA!
 
Quote
it seems that the last few times you've returned after a flounce, you've almost immediately began rehashing the same old fights that caused you to leave in the first place. You have continued to harp on the same issues with Nigel and TGRR. And, as DS has pointed out, you haven't really made a positive contribution to this thread, and yet you feel the need to get on a soapbox and... say nothing of value. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against you personally, but I seriously do not understand what point you are trying to make right now.

I spoke my piece about what I see as part of the problem, if that is not of any value to you then so be it.  Maybe it isn't of value to anyone.  But I am a part of this community.  I've been a part of this community for 6+ years.  I've been an active member of this community.  So I'm going to throw my two cents out, if they are duds for the rest of you, oh well, my loss.  But, I WILL SURVIVE!!!!   :)

Quote
For the record, I'll go ahead and say I care about Tuscon and Portland. I care about Mr. Language and the plant, because Nigel and Roger are my friends. So, if that's what they want to talk about, then I'll listen. That is separate from the mythology of Tuscon and the Dark Empress, which is probably one of the most entertaining mythologies that I've heard recently. For me at least, that hasn't gotten stale yet, and while others may disagree, I'd rather have stale stories about them than yet another rehash of the same drug debate that has evidently been going on here since the year dot.  

Well, I gather that quite a few folks around here do like that stuff.  I'm pretty sure I am in the minority.  Oh well.  
Condescension aside, fair enough.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 21, 2011, 12:27:14 am
What am I?  A humidifier? 
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: LMNO on December 21, 2011, 01:02:46 am
Well, I never took you for one who was into dry humor.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: rong on December 21, 2011, 02:51:08 am
I love dry humor
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 21, 2011, 05:11:47 pm
I love dry humor

We don't care.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 25, 2011, 08:08:47 am
I'm not even sure I know what dry humour even is. Is it the sort of humour that you laugh at despite knowing it's not really funny?

Or the sort that takes you to a place where there should be funny, but isnt?
Is there an opposite type of humour, called "wet humour"?

Because that sounds like it would be funnier.
Funny that threatens to make you piss yourself. Out of something other than sheer ennui.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 25, 2011, 02:24:32 pm
Dry humor is more sarcastic and deadpan and a tad bit critical. Its still funny but its more like horrormirth than safer forms of humor. Not the same thing of course but akin.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 25, 2011, 08:59:31 pm
Dry humor is more sarcastic and deadpan and a tad bit critical. Its still funny but its more like horrormirth than safer forms of humor. Not the same thing of course but akin.

Interesting. "Dry" humour in Dutch, or saying something [humorous] "dryly", afaik just means "deadpan", possibly so much it borders on the absurd, but not necessarily sarcastic or critical.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: rong on December 25, 2011, 11:20:57 pm
i always took dry humor to be humor that is funny, but doesn't say, "hey, look at me? i'm a joke!"

aside:  i fucking hate it when people start laughing at their own jokes before their even done telling them.  they are usually the only one laughing.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 26, 2011, 12:22:55 am
Just read back, and I got it. Dry humour is spilling a drink over someone, then telling them

"It's OK, just reach over there and put the dehumidifier on".

Which they do, but because of their wet fingers, they get a good jolt from the mains, then wet themselves in electric convulsions.

When they come round on the floor, you then inform them that you were "Taking the piss about the dehumidifier, but . . . . well, you obviously know that now". Then, if that person laughs, is that because of  "dry humour"?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: trix on December 26, 2011, 12:48:55 am
Read the OP, read the first page or two of comments, then skipped the rest because it's christmas and I'm low on time.

Just wanted to say two things:
First, I vote to keep the ban rules the same.  One of my favorite things about this board is that it embraces chaos right down to the rule set.  I missed whatever drama has Roger riled up this time, as my life has gotten busy as all hell lately, but I don't think anything is worth changing the rules over.

Second, and as for most of the rest of the OP, while your points do make sense, fuck you, this is discordia.  The boards get fast, slow, stop, run, and contain everything from swear words to facebook bullshit to a pictures of a duck's cock.  Sounds pretty discordian to me.  Most of the time it's pretty easy to tell from topic titles or at worst a short glance into the topic, whether or not the topic is facebookish drama or someone rant or what.  If it appears to be something you aren't interested in reading, fuckin don't.  It really is that easy.

I also think part of the slowness is the crazy amounts of time you spend here reading everything.  I can't even find the time to keep up with one single subforum let alone the entire board.   Does not look slow from where I am sitting.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 26, 2011, 02:21:03 am
I missed whatever drama has Roger riled up this time,

Sucks to be you then, doesn't it?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 26, 2011, 02:50:08 am
Duck's cock? I must have missed that.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 26, 2011, 02:51:17 am
Duck's cock? I must have missed that.

It's a Milwaukee thing.  It's sort of like Kent, except without as high a degree of culture as you'd expect.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: trix on December 26, 2011, 02:52:35 am
I missed whatever drama has Roger riled up this time,

Sucks to be you then, doesn't it?

Yeah, I've been crying inconsolably ever since I realized I missed some drama.  Why didn't I get the memo!?

Duck's cock? I must have missed that.

Heh, chosen at random.  Figured a decent chance it's here somewhere though.  Next time I get a sec I'll go find one.  Just for completeness.

ETA: NSFW (http://raincoaster.com/2007/08/21/weirdest-penis-ev-ar/)
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 26, 2011, 02:55:57 am

Yeah, I've been crying inconsolably ever since I realized I missed some drama.  Why didn't I get the memo!?


Well, yeah.  I mean, here the drama is all over, and you're determined to get your share.  Can't say I blame you, of course.  It was some high quality drama, though it had nothing to do with my suggestion to revisit the ban rules.  Really, Trix, I'd expect you to read a bit more carefully than that when you stalk me.  I have very high standards for my stalkers, and you're going to have to up your game a bit.

Just saying.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Telarus on December 26, 2011, 02:59:12 am
Just saying.

 :evil: :lol:
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 26, 2011, 03:00:57 am
Duck's cock? I must have missed that.

It's a Milwaukee thing.  It's sort of like Kent, except without as high a degree of culture as you'd expect.
I always thought a Duck would have had a Drake, rather than a Cock. (Or maybe a"Quacka Cloaca"?)
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 26, 2011, 03:04:19 am
Duck's cock? I must have missed that.

It's a Milwaukee thing.  It's sort of like Kent, except without as high a degree of culture as you'd expect.
I always thought a Duck would have had a Drake, rather than a Cock. (Or maybe a"Quacka Cloaca"?)

It's theirs, and they can call it anything they like.

Actually, I owe Trix a small debt of gratitude.  Having read his windy shit about "the declining quality of my rants/hateshitting/whatever", I got to thinking, and now I'm only going to rant when the mood hits me, rather than because I feel I should.  Somehow I got myself feeling obligated at a religious level, and now I've seen the light...Which is why I've slowed down a tad.  I'm mostly just writing horrible letters to politicians, these days.

Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 26, 2011, 03:11:46 am
Duck's cock? I must have missed that.

It's a Milwaukee thing.  It's sort of like Kent, except without as high a degree of culture as you'd expect.

There are 2 Kents, one North of (I think) the Medway, and one South. Depending on which side of the this sewerage ditch of a river you hail from, you are either a Kentish Man, or a Man of Kent. No-one ever goes there anyway. We don't like to go much further East than Marlborough. Not since that business with the Kite and the Helicopter.

And if Kent's so great, how come the Duke of Kent never goes near the fookin' place?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 26, 2011, 03:12:32 am
Duck's cock? I must have missed that.

It's a Milwaukee thing.  It's sort of like Kent, except without as high a degree of culture as you'd expect.

There are 2 Kents, one North of (I think) the Medway, and one South. Depending on which side of the this sewerage ditch of a river you hail from, you are either a Kentish Man, or a Man of Kent. No-one ever goes there anyway. We don't like to go much further East than Marlborough. Not since that business with the Kite and the Helicopter.

And if Kent's so great, how come the Duke of Kent never goes near the fookin' place?

Probably for the same reason my landlord avoids me like the plague.   :lol:
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 26, 2011, 03:14:39 am
Duck's cock? I must have missed that.

It's a Milwaukee thing.  It's sort of like Kent, except without as high a degree of culture as you'd expect.
I always thought a Duck would have had a Drake, rather than a Cock. (Or maybe a"Quacka Cloaca"?)

It's theirs, and they can call it anything they like.

Actually, I owe Trix a small debt of gratitude.  Having read his windy shit about "the declining quality of my rants/hateshitting/whatever", I got to thinking, and now I'm only going to rant when the mood hits me, rather than because I feel I should.  Somehow I got myself feeling obligated at a religious level, and now I've seen the light...Which is why I've slowed down a tad.  I'm mostly just writing horrible letters to politicians, these days.


You should write to their Wives instead. Far more likely to get a response too. I would have thought.
eta; "Dr Mr Clinton . . . . . "
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 26, 2011, 03:16:48 am
Duck's cock? I must have missed that.

It's a Milwaukee thing.  It's sort of like Kent, except without as high a degree of culture as you'd expect.
I always thought a Duck would have had a Drake, rather than a Cock. (Or maybe a"Quacka Cloaca"?)

It's theirs, and they can call it anything they like.

Actually, I owe Trix a small debt of gratitude.  Having read his windy shit about "the declining quality of my rants/hateshitting/whatever", I got to thinking, and now I'm only going to rant when the mood hits me, rather than because I feel I should.  Somehow I got myself feeling obligated at a religious level, and now I've seen the light...Which is why I've slowed down a tad.  I'm mostly just writing horrible letters to politicians, these days.


You should write to their Wives instead. Far more likely to get a response too. I would have thought.

I feel uncomfortable asking a man's wife if his decisions are due to fetal alcohol sydrome or terminal syphilis. 

Which is another way of saying, "I like to torment the staffers who actually read the letters.", and I assign myself bonus points every time I get a non-form letter in response (which isn't often, no matter how loudly I bray).
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: trix on December 26, 2011, 03:24:41 am
Duck's cock? I must have missed that.

It's a Milwaukee thing.  It's sort of like Kent, except without as high a degree of culture as you'd expect.
I always thought a Duck would have had a Drake, rather than a Cock. (Or maybe a"Quacka Cloaca"?)

It's theirs, and they can call it anything they like.

Actually, I owe Trix a small debt of gratitude.  Having read his windy shit about "the declining quality of my rants/hateshitting/whatever", I got to thinking, and now I'm only going to rant when the mood hits me, rather than because I feel I should.  Somehow I got myself feeling obligated at a religious level, and now I've seen the light...Which is why I've slowed down a tad.  I'm mostly just writing horrible letters to politicians, these days.



Probably moot at this point but, that windy shit really was intended as a joking bunch of BS to poke you with a stick.  Boredom relief, is all.  If you took that as my true opinion of the quality of your rants, that was not my intent.  I chose you as a target because your rants are some of my favorite to read, and no other reason.

I am, however, waiting with baited breath the next couple chapters of the Discordian Handbook or whatever it's called.  That thread full of tips on starting running and maintaining a cabal.  I have found that to be endlessly useful.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 26, 2011, 03:27:41 am
Duck's cock? I must have missed that.

It's a Milwaukee thing.  It's sort of like Kent, except without as high a degree of culture as you'd expect.
I always thought a Duck would have had a Drake, rather than a Cock. (Or maybe a"Quacka Cloaca"?)

It's theirs, and they can call it anything they like.

Actually, I owe Trix a small debt of gratitude.  Having read his windy shit about "the declining quality of my rants/hateshitting/whatever", I got to thinking, and now I'm only going to rant when the mood hits me, rather than because I feel I should.  Somehow I got myself feeling obligated at a religious level, and now I've seen the light...Which is why I've slowed down a tad.  I'm mostly just writing horrible letters to politicians, these days.



Probably moot at this point but, that windy shit really was intended as a joking bunch of BS to poke you with a stick.  Boredom relief, is all.  If you took that as my true opinion of the quality of your rants, that was not my intent.  I chose you as a target because your rants are some of my favorite to read, and no other reason.

I am, however, waiting with baited breath the next couple chapters of the Discordian Handbook or whatever it's called.  That thread full of tips on starting running and maintaining a cabal.  I have found that to be endlessly useful.

1.  Well, there's the law of unintended consequences for you...Or maybe LMNO's Axiom in a slightly different context.

2.  Well, I stopped writing that 2-3 years ago, so don't hold your breath too long.  It occurred to me that expecting what works for me to work for other people was kind of silly...and besides, it gets in the way of the old drama, doesn't it?  I mean, while I'm busy writing things like that, I could be picking fights and suggesting odd changes to the rules.

TGRR,
A big cunt, but not as big as your GF's.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 26, 2011, 04:38:15 am
Duck's cock? I must have missed that.

It's a Milwaukee thing.  It's sort of like Kent, except without as high a degree of culture as you'd expect.
I always thought a Duck would have had a Drake, rather than a Cock. (Or maybe a"Quacka Cloaca"?)

It's theirs, and they can call it anything they like.

Actually, I owe Trix a small debt of gratitude.  Having read his windy shit about "the declining quality of my rants/hateshitting/whatever", I got to thinking, and now I'm only going to rant when the mood hits me, rather than because I feel I should.  Somehow I got myself feeling obligated at a religious level, and now I've seen the light...Which is why I've slowed down a tad.  I'm mostly just writing horrible letters to politicians, these days.


You should write to their Wives instead. Far more likely to get a response too. I would have thought.

I feel uncomfortable asking a man's wife if his decisions are due to fetal alcohol sydrome or terminal syphilis.  

Which is another way of saying, "I like to torment the staffers who actually read the letters.", and I assign myself bonus points every time I get a non-form letter in response (which isn't often, no matter how loudly I bray).

Ah, OK, that sounds all good too. Remind the Toadying little fuckers just what a sack of pus they're working for, kinda thing?  Just be careful not to lose control of those emotions. (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/Landover%20emotes/taz.gif)  :lulz:
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 26, 2011, 10:52:35 am
i always took dry humor to be humor that is funny, but doesn't say, "hey, look at me? i'm a joke!"

But isn't that pretty much exactly what "deadpan" means?

Just read back, and I got it. Dry humour is spilling a drink over someone, then telling them

"It's OK, just reach over there and put the dehumidifier on".

Which they do, but because of their wet fingers, they get a good jolt from the mains, then wet themselves in electric convulsions.

When they come round on the floor, you then inform them that you were "Taking the piss about the dehumidifier, but . . . . well, you obviously know that now". Then, if that person laughs, is that because of  "dry humour"?

Nononono, it also needs to be deadpan. So it's when the police finds the dessicated mummified corpse three weeks later.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 26, 2011, 11:26:53 am
Like Horatio Cain on CSI Miami?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: rong on December 26, 2011, 01:03:16 pm
i think deadpan refers only to the delivery while dry humor could also be situational.  i.e. all deadpan is dry, but not all dry is deadpan.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Faust on December 26, 2011, 02:51:39 pm
i always took dry humor to be humor that is funny, but doesn't say, "hey, look at me? i'm a joke!"

But isn't that pretty much exactly what "deadpan" means?

Just read back, and I got it. Dry humour is spilling a drink over someone, then telling them

"It's OK, just reach over there and put the dehumidifier on".

Which they do, but because of their wet fingers, they get a good jolt from the mains, then wet themselves in electric convulsions.

When they come round on the floor, you then inform them that you were "Taking the piss about the dehumidifier, but . . . . well, you obviously know that now". Then, if that person laughs, is that because of  "dry humour"?

Nononono, it also needs to be deadpan. So it's when the police finds the dessicated mummified corpse three weeks later.
Deadpan is generally without any emotion, you can have dry humour that isn't without emotion, just as long as its not really jovial or lively.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 26, 2011, 05:10:43 pm
Why is all this thoughtful conversation on this fucking thread?  Trix was just in here, asking for his fair share of the drama and shit, and here YOU guys are having a fucking rational conversation.

What the hell is WRONG with people these days?  I mean, aside from LMNO.  I know what's wrong with him.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 26, 2011, 05:32:08 pm
I can see how "jovial, lively" Deadpan has the potential to jump across the divide to full on creepy Clowning. And how that's too close to fear to be actual humour.

 I've got 'dry' down now like Roger Moore as Bond, turning his head, and just raising an eyebrow when Miss Funnyfanny walks in. Dry as in needing minimal input to distinguish an (old tired, and overused) implied gag. He did it better on The Saint first anyway.

Doesn't actually have to be funny to work either. Which is pretty unusual.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 26, 2011, 07:03:56 pm
dry humor is that old-timey, witty wordplay humor.  I instantly think of someone like Groucho, or an Abbot and Costello routine.  It's not sight-gags, or potty humor.  It tickles your brain.  It sometimes takes a little extra effort to "get", as opposed to seeing Jim Carey make stupid faces.  That is easy to "get", but is much less fulfilling, in my opinion. 

Punnery is often a form of dry humor, thought not always. 
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 26, 2011, 07:37:52 pm
I pondered punnery, but perceived it's predilection for a preposterously posed premise, to be perturbing, perverse, and ponderously predictable. 
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 26, 2011, 08:10:55 pm
I queried the quote, the quip, and the question, but kwudn't kwite quasp the quoncept . . .
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: trix on December 26, 2011, 09:56:18 pm
I queried the quote, the quip, and the question, but kwudn't kwite quasp the quoncept . . .

Shouldn't stretch the syllables so, it's a sucky surrendor showing your struggle to say sentances somewhat strung together.

Reminds me of that beginning part of "V for Vendetta" when V first met Evey.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 26, 2011, 11:20:03 pm
I queried the quote, the quip, and the question, but kwudn't kwite quasp the quoncept . . .

Shouldn't stretch the syllables so, it's a sucky surrendor showing your struggle to say sentances somewhat strung together.

Reminds me of that beginning part of "V for Vendetta" when V first met Evey.
Thanks trix,
Distended vowels eh? Then instead of vowels I shall stretch the premise of your critique a little, and wholeheartedly agree with your observation that my writing is indeed, on a par with Moore's. (Thanks again) And furthermore, that gives me full mandate to stretch beyond recognition any vowels I choose.   
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Reginald Ret on December 27, 2011, 01:25:00 am
dry humor is that old-timey, witty wordplay humor.  I instantly think of someone like Groucho, or an Abbot and Costello routine.  It's not sight-gags, or potty humor.  It tickles your brain.  It sometimes takes a little extra effort to "get", as opposed to seeing Jim Carey make stupid faces.  That is easy to "get", but is much less fulfilling, in my opinion. 

Punnery is often a form of dry humor, thought not always. 
I disagree with this tiny bit, I've made some people laugh their ass off by deadpanly pointing out sight-gags. And as has already been established:
i think deadpan refers only to the delivery while dry humor could also be situational.  i.e. all deadpan is dry, but not all dry is deadpan.
Punnery often has a deadpan-esque delivery but doing it completely deadpan would take a great deal of fun out of it. It's the twinkle in the eye of the punner that triggers the attention puns need to become truly side-splitting. An unconsidered pun misses its point   It is the 'did he really? no ho wouldn't... aw fuck he did' thought that elicits the groan.
Dry humour to me is strenghtening the element of surprise by making a joke in a way that does not sound like it's a joke but judging from its contents could not be anything else.
This includes all deadpan jokes(including externally caused sight-gags if done deadpan),
puns if the victim thinks fast enough to surprise himself by translating the pun before knowing/realizing what it will be,
and Politics.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2011, 02:48:12 am
I queried the quote, the quip, and the question, but kwudn't kwite quasp the quoncept . . .

Shouldn't stretch the syllables so, it's a sucky surrendor showing your struggle to say sentances somewhat strung together.

Reminds me of that beginning part of "V for Vendetta" when V first met Evey.

"Surrender".

TGRR,
Guardian of the Queen's English.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 27, 2011, 10:18:31 am
I queried the quote, the quip, and the question, but kwudn't kwite quasp the quoncept . . .

Shouldn't stretch the syllables so, it's a sucky surrendor showing your struggle to say sentances somewhat strung together.

Reminds me of that beginning part of "V for Vendetta" when V first met Evey.
"Sentences"
BB. If we are to guard the sacred mother tongue from the decay of colonial abuse, it's spelling is the place to start.   
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: trix on December 27, 2011, 11:34:14 am
oh no grammer police everywhere!
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Cain on December 27, 2011, 11:53:24 am
Oh no, Grammar Police everywhere!

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 27, 2011, 01:22:44 pm
oh no grammer police everywhere!
That would be "Grammar". Happy to help, but it seems Cain is a little quicker off the mark.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: LMNO on December 27, 2011, 01:24:21 pm
Grammar got run over by a reign, dear.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 27, 2011, 01:40:32 pm
dry humor is that old-timey, witty wordplay humor.  I instantly think of someone like Groucho, or an Abbot and Costello routine.  It's not sight-gags, or potty humor.  It tickles your brain.  It sometimes takes a little extra effort to "get", as opposed to seeing Jim Carey make stupid faces.  That is easy to "get", but is much less fulfilling, in my opinion. 

Punnery is often a form of dry humor, thought not always. 
I disagree with this tiny bit, I've made some people laugh their ass off by deadpanly pointing out sight-gags.

Fair enough.  I should have said "not usually". 
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 27, 2011, 01:41:10 pm
Grammar got run over by a reign, dear.

Kelsey?

Oh please, oh please, oh please....
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2011, 05:38:09 pm
oh no grammer police everywhere!

"Grammar".

You're welcome.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Don Coyote on December 27, 2011, 05:48:10 pm
In any case, that would be Spelling Police.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 27, 2011, 06:04:21 pm
In any case, that would be Spelling Police.
We'll have no wiccans here!
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: LMNO on December 27, 2011, 06:15:22 pm
In any case, that would be Spelling Police.


I WILL EAT YOUR SOUL!
                 \
(http://static.tvguide.com/MediaBin/Galleries/Celebrities/A_F/Aa_Ah/Aaron_Spelling/1/aaron-spelling2.jpg)
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 27, 2011, 06:21:04 pm
oh no grammer police everywhere!

You're a student, right?

Think of it as free tutoring.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: trix on December 28, 2011, 09:51:03 pm
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: EK WAFFLR on December 28, 2011, 09:52:14 pm
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS

That's GRAMMAR.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 28, 2011, 10:00:27 pm
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS


 :regret:
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Don Coyote on December 28, 2011, 11:12:09 pm
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS

Comparing people who are only helping you with your poor spelling with minions of a totalitarian and fascist regime that committed genocide and other atrocities is in terribly poor tastes.

Saying that spelling is the same as grammar is just ignorant.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Freeky on December 28, 2011, 11:16:56 pm
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS


 :regret:

I would just like to say that this is amazing ohmygod its an emote fuck yeah
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Juana on December 28, 2011, 11:26:31 pm
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS


 :regret:

I would just like to say that this is amazing ohmygod its an emote fuck yeah
^^^ That. I fucking love it!
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: BadBeast on December 28, 2011, 11:57:49 pm
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/Infographics/demotivational-posters-grammar.jpg)
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 29, 2011, 12:00:45 am
In any case, that would be Spelling Police.

ZOMG SYNTAX POLICE!
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: trix on December 29, 2011, 12:27:16 am
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS

Comparing people who are only helping you with your poor spelling with minions of a totalitarian and fascist regime that committed genocide and other atrocities is in terribly poor tastes.

Saying that spelling is the same as grammar is just ignorant.

Really?  Did I make it too subtle for you?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 29, 2011, 12:30:26 am
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS

Comparing people who are only helping you with your poor spelling with minions of a totalitarian and fascist regime that committed genocide and other atrocities is in terribly poor tastes.

Saying that spelling is the same as grammar is just ignorant.

Really?  Did I make it too subtle for you?

Dig your heels in.  Show that other monkey who's boss.

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn117/mattbrill/screamingmonkey.jpg)
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Freeky on December 29, 2011, 12:32:25 am
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS

Comparing people who are only helping you with your poor spelling with minions of a totalitarian and fascist regime that committed genocide and other atrocities is in terribly poor tastes.

Saying that spelling is the same as grammar is just ignorant.

Really?  Did I make it too subtle for you?

Jesus fuck, either make a meaningful contribution or SHUT THE FUCK UP you goddamn IDIOT.


Yeah, just shut up. 
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Don Coyote on December 29, 2011, 03:33:55 am
In any case, that would be Spelling Police.

ZOMG SYNTAX POLICE!

:spittake:
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: trix on December 29, 2011, 05:27:15 am
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS

Comparing people who are only helping you with your poor spelling with minions of a totalitarian and fascist regime that committed genocide and other atrocities is in terribly poor tastes.

Saying that spelling is the same as grammar is just ignorant.

Really?  Did I make it too subtle for you?

Jesus fuck, either make a meaningful contribution or SHUT THE FUCK UP you goddamn IDIOT.


Yeah, just shut up. 

For a group that loves trolling as much as this one, you guys snatch the bait faster then starving piranhas
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Pæs on December 29, 2011, 06:48:54 am
Did I miss a thread where trix decided to give up on trying to be interesting and turned into this?
Was he like this all along?
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Luna on December 29, 2011, 01:10:35 pm
Did I miss a thread where trix decided to give up on trying to be interesting and turned into this?
Was he like this all along?

More or less, sadly.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 29, 2011, 02:49:09 pm
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS

Comparing people who are only helping you with your poor spelling with minions of a totalitarian and fascist regime that committed genocide and other atrocities is in terribly poor tastes.

Saying that spelling is the same as grammar is just ignorant.

Really?  Did I make it too subtle for you?

Jesus fuck, either make a meaningful contribution or SHUT THE FUCK UP you goddamn IDIOT.


Yeah, just shut up. 

For a group that loves trolling as much as this one, you guys snatch the bait faster then starving piranhas

While your presentation is a step above "DERP, I WAS TROLLING THE WHOLE TIME!", your actual content is pretty much exactly that.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Reginald Ret on December 29, 2011, 05:08:46 pm
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS


 :regret:

I would just like to say that this is amazing ohmygod its an emote fuck yeah
I HAVE AN EMOTE?! YAY!
What happens if you change your screenname to an emote?
Dammit, nothing.
...
Untill someone uses my name! muhahaw!
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 29, 2011, 07:56:53 pm
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS

Comparing people who are only helping you with your poor spelling with minions of a totalitarian and fascist regime that committed genocide and other atrocities is in terribly poor tastes.

Saying that spelling is the same as grammar is just ignorant.

Really?  Did I make it too subtle for you?

PEDANTRY POLICE!
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 29, 2011, 07:57:47 pm
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS

Comparing people who are only helping you with your poor spelling with minions of a totalitarian and fascist regime that committed genocide and other atrocities is in terribly poor tastes.

Saying that spelling is the same as grammar is just ignorant.


Really?  Did I make it too subtle for you?

Jesus fuck, either make a meaningful contribution or SHUT THE FUCK UP you goddamn IDIOT.


Yeah, just shut up. 

For a group that loves trolling as much as this one, you guys snatch the bait faster then starving piranhas

ZOMG TROLLING POLICE!
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 29, 2011, 07:58:38 pm
STOP CORRECTING MY GRAMMER YOU NAZIS


 :regret:

I would just like to say that this is amazing ohmygod its an emote fuck yeah
I HAVE AN EMOTE?! YAY!
What happens if you change your screenname to an emote?
Dammit, nothing.
...
Untill someone uses my name! muhahaw!

Quoting to see what happens
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: LMNO on December 29, 2011, 08:04:59 pm
The emotes are case sensitive.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Freeky on December 29, 2011, 08:07:49 pm
The emotes are case sensitive.

Still nothing.  Even if you stick a space between :Regret: with a lowercase r and the = in the quote tag.  :(
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Reginald Ret on December 29, 2011, 10:20:55 pm
The emotes are case sensitive.

Still nothing.  Even if you stick a space between :Regret: with a lowercase r and the = in the quote tag.  :(
:argh!: Quote tags do not execute emotes, not surprising actually.
Oh well, time to change my nick to lowercase and wait untill a spelling nazi adresses me.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: AFK on December 30, 2011, 12:29:50 am
The emotes are case sensitive.

CAPITALIST PIGS!!!
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 30, 2011, 01:41:48 am
Did I miss a thread where trix decided to give up on trying to be interesting and turned into this?
Was he like this all along?

He's been stuck in noob mode since he got here.  He's still trying to show us all.

You know, instead of being a biped.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Reginald Ret on December 30, 2011, 01:50:42 pm
This Biped has a new pair of stomping boots!
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-10kAq8MeMS8/Tv29CZNvukI/AAAAAAAAAVc/Tpsdf-dRIW8/s1024/Picture0043.jpg)

Alright my fellow Bipeds, the time has come!
It is time to put on your stomping boots and to finally execute all those Plans.
The Plans you never let bear fruit just because they are 'unsafe' or 'stupid' or 'too weird'.
I say no more! This New Year's eve Sciencewill be done.
If no injuries or arrests are reported in the first week of 2012 We will all know cowardice just by looking in the mirror!
I promise you this: If my imagination fails me and i can't think of anything else i will drink all that is left of the homemade edible pepperspray i made last summer. Results will be posted in horrible detail and with pics if possible.


edit: Plan got changed, best friend got testicular cancer. surgery succesful. waiting on recovery from surgery and after that more tests. 95% chance of full recovery. Probably will still drink 50/50 pepperspray/vodka mix. If only to make him laugh :P Took the glorious bastard about 1 minute to start making bad jokes about losing his marble etc etc. Things will turn out fine, but not in the mood for other shit.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: trix on January 02, 2012, 02:28:11 am
Did I miss a thread where trix decided to give up on trying to be interesting and turned into this?
Was he like this all along?

He's been stuck in noob mode since he got here.  He's still trying to show us all.

You know, instead of being a biped.

Show you all?  It amused me to respond in a trollish way.  No grand scheme involved, old-timer.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Don Coyote on January 02, 2012, 04:50:24 am
Did I miss a thread where trix decided to give up on trying to be interesting and turned into this?
Was he like this all along?

He's been stuck in noob mode since he got here.  He's still trying to show us all.

You know, instead of being a biped.

Show you all?  It amused me to respond in a trollish way.  No grand scheme involved, old-timer.

Maybe the next time you have that urge, don't.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: navkat on January 02, 2012, 10:42:13 am
I have mixed feelings on the OP.

1. No, this isn't a personal blog site but Apple Talk isn't an inappropriate place for personal shit. We're all fucked up in some way and for many of us, this really has become sort of like a church congregation. I've been thoroughly absorbed in my own bullshit but I do give a shit about many of you weirdos on a human compassion level. I don't mind hearing about people's baggage aslong as it's not histrionic or incessantly whiny. I know y'all have been, at times, a factor in my fight to keep myself out of some pretty dark places and much of that is due to the fact that you guys "get it." It's impossible to feel alone at the edge of madness when you're in a community that has borne witness to many of its members doing shit like eat a fistful of peyote and run stark-screaming-naked through the american desert because the frontal-lobe cleaning-lady went on an extended vaycay to Tahiti.

2. Agreed...in part. I know I'm sort of a drifter but I'm enjoying you guys. I don't get butthurt about my shit getting ignored because I know I'm sort of a pick-and-choosy participator. I kinda like being this board's flaky, batshit little sister: I pop in from San Diego to drop off souvinirs, tell some stories, d a few loads of laundry, sometimes borrow money and then run off with some rock band to Chicago for a few months. I think we should all have the liberty to pick our levels of participation and roles.

3. Disagree. I don't mind mittens or emotes. Let's face it: we're all used-up interweb whores who are basically jaded. Emotes were cute, then lametarded, now they've come full circle to useful simply because they're shorthand to express what we've all said with every possible combination of words already. I'm happy and grateful to get mittens or a smile. You are not required to say something cever every minute of the fucking day.

4. Agreed. Completely. Shitstorms are awesome. By all means, please do start them. Also, butthurt should be kept to a minimum by now unless yr a noob. We're all a bunch of jackasses and psychos.

5. No comment. I don't feel like I have the right since I'm more of a lone wolf joiner than a leader here. I have my own brand of whimsy. I sometimes play along and then flounce. I consider you gays to be forces of nature. I enjoy you all muchly. Thank you for letting me play.

6. I love you, Roger. I think you're usually pretty reasonable and fair. You'll post an acutely biting shitstorm like this, poking fingers at everyone and later, poke at yourself for your own poking. I dig it.

7. Agreed. I also feel like people should make continual efforts at logic-based revisionist attitudes--this includes towards each other. Try again to understand and re-evaluate what the other guy's saying before running your biased mouth.

8. Agreed. We need new blood. 50 post head start was swell...maybe expand that to 100? Maybe give the status an ominous countdown message just to shake em up and keep it fair? Like Wog Day during the Shellbacking initiation, for instance (Navy trad. Google it): the Polywogs get to fuck with the elders for a while before hell is unleashed upon their assholes.

9. No opinion.

10. I like conservative banning practices. We're the fucking Order of Chaos, not a fucking AA Yahoo group. To your credit, I've never seen you ban unnecessarily. Threats of violence, getting ruthlessly or unethically AND relentlessly personal/brutal, posting anything that could result in IRL consequences (eg: child pron) and a healthy dose of case-by-case common sense is the capital thing. I personally detest cruelty and schadenfreude.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 03, 2012, 03:31:41 pm
Did I miss a thread where trix decided to give up on trying to be interesting and turned into this?
Was he like this all along?

He's been stuck in noob mode since he got here.  He's still trying to show us all.

You know, instead of being a biped.

Show you all?  It amused me to respond in a trollish way.  No grand scheme involved, old-timer.

It amused me to respond to your trollish response in a patronizing, condescending way.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2021, 05:28:01 pm
4.  If you KNOW a subject will bring down a shitstorm and - knowing this - you post a thread about that subject, don't start fucking bitching when that shitstorm arrives.  And if you do, for fuck's sake don't be a passive-aggressive shitbag about it.  If you KNOW that a drug thread is going to spin out of control instantly, either don't post a thread that says "I'll just leave this here" as if you aren't going to engage, then engage, then get all fucking weepy about the results, flounce a dozen fucking times, and then forever after treat everyone on the board like they aren't real people, simply because your rectum burns.  Talking to you, RWHN, if it ain't obvious enough, but it goes for anyone else who starts a thread about a hot-button topic and then starts to settle at the stern when people do EXACTLY WHAT YOU EXPECTED THEM TO DO.  If you are willing to take the pounding and smile, by all means post the thread...But if not, don't be a big fucking nancy when the inevitable happens.  You fucking KNEW what was coming, so why the FUCK are you upset?

DON'T POST ANYTHING WE (TGRR and Nigel) DON'T LIKE!!!!!

This is part of the cancer that is killing the place. 

That isn't what I said, you fucked up little pussy.  Grow the fuck up.

You are such a passive-aggressive little shitstain, RWHN.  You have been for at least 2 years.

Spare me the internet tough guy, please, this isn't my first turkey trot.  I'm a bit more resilient than your average noob.  And don't talk to me about being a pussy.  Why don't you go whine some more about people not posting when you want them to.  Here's a clue.  People have fucking jobs, they have fucking lives.  People are getting promoted, getting new jobs.  Life is happening. 

That doesn't mean the discordia stops. It just means the postings here slow down.  So fucking what.  But, yes, why don't you threaten to take your toys and go home.  THAT will solve things!

When anyone wants to know why RWHN is permabanned, this sort of shit is why.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2021, 06:37:57 pm
He was actually banned for banning the rest of us from a site of his, but this sort of shit is what led up to it.
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: rong on April 20, 2021, 01:02:04 pm
https://www.cancercenter.com/community/blog/2018/10/the-cancer-and-autoimmune-disease-connection (https://www.cancercenter.com/community/blog/2018/10/the-cancer-and-autoimmune-disease-connection)
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Bovine19 on May 06, 2021, 02:41:30 am
*giggles*
Title: Re: 10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 06, 2021, 04:23:42 am
*giggles*

Oh, hi RWHN.

Bye, RWHN.