Warning: IRC log being posted ITT
<Cram>: you should be able to make sense of this text without being a PD member.
<nobody>: he screwed more women then anyone i ever knew
<Burns>: i agree
<nobody>: my advice is make it suck less then the bip
<Burns>: then edit it
<Cram>: in what ways do you think the bip sucks?
<nobody>: it was pedestrian, boring, not funny or interesting at all
<Burns>: how would you have done it differently?
<ENKI-][>: what is it that you guys are working on?
<Cram>: the sacred chao te ching
<ENKI-][>: ah
<ENKI-][>: i'll take a look at that. i haven't actually taken a look at the progress since the original post
<nobody>: i would of made it funny
<Cram>: nobody: that's a very challenging and lofty goal!
<nobody>: the bip didn't even try to be funny as far as i can tell, except in one small place
<Cram>: yeah it wasn't really supposed to be humorous
<Burns>: YOU'RE A PRISONER OF YOUR BELIEFS, NOBODY, YOUR CRITICISM OF THE BIP IMPRISIONS YOU
<ENKI-][>: :-)
<Burns>: actually i like it not necessarily being funny
<nobody>: i think discordian works that aren't funny are sorta missing the point
<nobody>: i really think the theme of discordianism, when you boil it all down, is...
<nobody>: enlightenment through absurdity
<ENKI-][>: well, one way to make it funny without it being funny is to be so self-conciously serious that it ends up coming out the other end
<ENKI-][>: i have an example of what i mean somewhere. sec.
<nobody>: i dig ya enki
<nobody>: i don't think the bip qualifies though
<nobody>: the bip is some srs guy yelling at everyone to wake up
<nobody>: its just tired, cliche, and boring
<Cram>: I don't think you can reduce discordia to one simple "mission statement" like that.
<ENKI-][>: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_1KlWFJyA [TITLE: Tetris - The Movie VIEWS: 483905 FAVES: 830 RATING: 4 RATERS: 2207 UPLOADED: wwwBLACK20com ]
<Cram>: eh maybe you find it tired and cliche -- it actually helped me out quite a bit in my life, when I found it.
<Idem>:
<Cram>: have you tried to write discordian literature? It's a very interesting process to me. forces you to examine all those assumptions you've got. In the end I think humor is a tool, but it's not the central feature.
<Burns>: i think it takes a humorous attitude to really grasp the seriousness of the BIP
<Cram>: also, it's nearly impossible for nonprofessionals to be "funny" on cue. Which means if humor is the litmus test for discordian works, well, none of us are good discordians then :-P
<Burns>: when you can laugh at your OWN BIP, then you've gotten to a workable place
<Cram>: but I'll point out that lots of Discordian texts arne't actually "funny".. Thornley's essay on Zenarchy comes to mind. Very highly discordian, and contains very few jokes.
<Cram>: our intent with the sacred chao te ching is certainly not to create a funnybook. If there are some lulz in it, so be it, but that's not the focus
<Idem>: yes
<ENKI-][>: well, your intent, Cram. :-)
<Cram>: fair enough
<ENKI-][>: but i would agree with the assessment that discordian texts don't have to be funny
<ENKI-][>: (take nearly everything on PD, particularly the rants. mostly angry, not funny)
<nobody>: i wouldn't consider the bip to be a discordian work
<Cram>: and what, pray tell, are your requirements?
Burns is off to edit a bit...ttyl
<nobody>: mostly that it at least vaguely follows the enlightenment through absurdity theme
<nobody>: actually i guess that'd be my only requirement at all
<Cram>: I think it does follow that theme, personally
<ENKI-][>: for what it's worth, i wouldn't put the BIP necessarily into the discordian category, but it fits into the same category as the PD and a number of other works that are pre-discordian and ostensibly unrelated: which is to say, it falls into the category of works that involve the goal of actively recognizing the difference between percieved reality and objective reality.
<badge>: how is that not discordian
<ENKI-][>: i mean, PD and some of RAW's stuff does that through enlightenment-through-absurdity
<ENKI-][>: and the BIP does not, in my opinion.
<ENKI-][>: i'd just say that that stuff isn't solely the domain of discordianism.
<ENKI-][>: my $0.02
<Cain>: Asurdism has to be funny. therefore, Camus and the BIP =/= Absurdist. obviously :p
<ENKI-][>: i thought camus was supposed to be existentialist <_<
<Cain>: nope
<Cram>: I think it's problematic to define "discordian works" too rigidly. We don't have dogma, after all. Evaluating whether or not something is discordian based on its adherence to some unspoken principle sounds kind of dogmatic to me.
<badge>: I thought the central point of discordianism is perceived vs objective reality
<ENKI-][>: point taken.
<nobody>: ok then, call everything discordian
<nobody>: sorta dilutes the point, but whatevs
<ENKI-][>: it's a central point, and probably bigger on PD than elsewhere.
<Cram>: well it's not an All or Nothing issue
<Idem>:
<Idem>: yes
<Cain>: false dchotomy
<ENKI-][>: but i wouldn't say it's the only point
<Cram>: Uncle BadTouch takes the Everything is Discordia approach... like MileyGASM... taking it too far, I think
<Idem>: I didn't really pick up many points in teh PD
<Cram>: he claims she's a discordian because she's in a photo giving the peace sign, and was born on the 5th. or something
<Cain>: thats because Uncle BadTouch is a fuckwit
<badge>: nobody what is the point then
<Idem>: first read it when I was ~14 though
<Idem>: found it hilarious
<ENKI-][>: you can certainly make a good argument for most things with the everything is discordia approach
<badge>: you can make an argument, don't know if it's going to be "good" though
<Cram>: I think it's easier to say something is Discordian than it is to say something isn't Discoridan.
<ENKI-][>: depends more upon your rhetorical skill than the facts :-)
<nobody>: the point is everything is about as realistic as one certain thing, that you can skew your view on the universe and still be ok, that it's actually desirable, and the point is came to in a roundabout way
<nobody>: through surrealism, absurdity, and other funny stuff
<Idem>: yes
<badge>: wat
<Idem>: saying "that wall is discordian" could make perfect sense
<Idem>: but saying that the wall is not discordian requires specification
<nobody>: now the apocrypha discordia, thats a great discordian work
<Cain>: absurdism and surrealism =/= necessarily funny, nothing
<ENKI-][>: Cain: ostensibly, surrealism shouldn't be funny except perhaps in retrospect
<ENKI-][>: at least, to my understanding
<Cain>: well it can be funny, yes. but it doesn't have to be, its not a necessary requirement for that category of work
<ENKI-][>: but it wouldn't be the first time i totally misunderstood the point of an art movement
<nobody>: when i use surrealism, i'm not really talking about the art movement
<nobody>: i'm more talking about the juxtoposition of expectations
<ENKI-][>: i'd think that if you started laughing at the output of your automatic writing or drawing while you were doing it it might have a censoring effect
<nobody>: really i'm talking about a certain sort of absurdity i guess
<ENKI-][>: but it would likely be quite silly afterwards. for example, in exquisite corpse
<Cain>: Andre Breton: "Surrealism is based on the belief in the superior reality of certain forms of previously neglected associations, in the omnipotence of dream, in the disinterested play of thought. It tends to ruin once and for all all other psychic mechanisms and to substitute itself for them in solving all the principal problems of life."
<nobody>: like a pyramid with an eye on top, but also a nose
<ENKI-][>: the ears have walls.
<nobody>: when i say surrealism, its more in the sense of non sequitors
<Cram>: again, I think it's kind of limiting to reduce Discordia to "enlightenment through non sequitor". Humor is the motif, but it's not the *point*, if there is one anyway
<nobody>: mebbe its sorta limiting, but its a joke
<Cram>: is it a joke?
<nobody>: we're essentially the people taking the joke waaaaay too far
<Cram>: probably true. but that don't mean we're doing it wrong.
<badge>: nobody if that's your definition of surrealism you should stop saying surrealism, because you're wrong
<nobody>: well, i think we are doing it wrong if we loose the humor
<nobody>: -o
<Cram>: you're taking humor pretty seriously!
Cram snickers
<Cain>: obviously if not every work contains humour, we must be trying to get rid of it
<ENKI-][>: unfunny jokes are the best kind!
<nobody>: surrealism:
<nobody>: : the principles, ideals, or practice of producing fantastic or incongruous imagery or effects in art, literature, film, or theater by means of unnatural or irrational juxtapositions and combinations
<nobody>: from merriam webster
<Cain>: I got mine from Andre Breton
<Cain>: who may just know
<Idem>:
<Cain>: since he founded
<nobody>: it really doesn't have to refer to the fucking art movement
<Cain>: and led, the surrealist art movement
<nobody>: fuck him and fuck his movement
<nobody>: naming a movement something doesn't need to ruin the damn word for every other purpose forever
<Cain>: you're just upset because you cant make words mean what you want
<ENKI-][>: reminds me somewhat of a punchline i remember from somewhere. "salvador dali is my favourite author! can't paint for beans, though."
<Cain>: lol
<nobody>: i can make words mean what i want you beanhead
<ENKI-][>: i agree somewhat with that statement. i like his writing better than i like his painting.
<nobody>: ;-)
<Cain>: yeah, if you want to appear psychotic
<badge>: nobody, you can but you just can't expect to communicate well with anyone else
<nobody>: anyway, i have to go to w*rk
<ENKI-][>: nobody: when i use a word, it means exactly what i want it to! no more, no less! *falls off a wall*
<nobody>: i leave you with this
<Cram>: lol\
<nobody>: surrealism was a word before it was a specific art movement and it meant something, the movement didn't change that
<Cram>: I leave you with this: http://discordia.wikia.com/wiki/Bad_Discordians :-)
<ENKI-][>: the word preceeded the movement?
<ENKI-][>: i thought the word was derived from the movement, myself...
<nobody>: i dunno, i just made up the idea
<nobody>: look into it
<badge>: checking OED
<badge>: it's not even IN my OED
<badge>: how old is this thing? goddam
<ENKI-][>: you have a hardcopy?
<Cain>: I looked into it. I found no evidence of surrealism as a body of work or method or style preceeding the surrealist movement
<Cain>: the word "surreal" existed
<Cain>: but the "ism" is kind of important
<ENKI-][>: how much older is 'surreal'?
<badge>: much like...oh..."discordianism"
<ENKI-][>: it looks like it's derived from the french, but you can never tell with the way some words will take the b in sub and replace it with the letter that follows it
<ENKI-][>: i forget the term for that
if discordianism involved enlightenment through absurdity, nobody would be a fucking buddha. that's all i have to say.
nobody is a fucking moron.
Absurdity is a tool and maybe a realization.
But even in the more important sense, 'getting the joke' as I've seen it referred to around here, absurdity is hardly the only way to get it.
humor is the fulcrum, the work being accomplished can be heavy (serious ) and the energy required to do the lifting can be large but by having humor (absurdity) put in the right place at the right time gets the job done with greater efficiency ...
Oh, for fuck sake. :x
Nobody needs to read the PD again, and pay attention this time.
I'm not involved in the BIP, but take a passing interest every so often
I just wanna point out to nobody that as far as I know there is nothing really stopping him from creating his own project...
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on June 02, 2009, 06:38:48 PM
I'm not involved in the BIP, but take a passing interest every so often
I just wanna point out to nobody that as far as I know there is nothing really stopping him from creating his own project...
I've noticed that there are a lot more people who are interested in telling other people how they "should have done" a project than there are people who are interested in doing their own projects.
The BiP is a work... its placement as Discordian... seems to be in the minds of Discordians that wrote it... which seems true of Every Discordian Work. :wink:
On the one hand, I grok what nobody is trying to say. Without the context of PD.com as host, and the individual at PD.com helping people perceive the BiP as Discordian, I don't know that a random reader would think 'Discordian' when they read it. Obviously, what "is" Discordian seems like a silly argument no matter which side you're on. But the BiP , as compared with the body of (what is generally considered by many discordians as) existant Discordian works, seems like a marked departure from what is generally considered 'Discordian'.
If we had the Wise Book of Baloney, The PD, the Apocrypha, Zenarchy, etc... and the BiP. We could easily play the old Sesame St game "One of these things is not like the other"... However, that doesn't make it 'not Discordian', it just makes its 'a sort of Discordian as defined by the Discordians that wrote it'. We've all been through the 'It's harsh, its not funny, its preachy, its evangelical, its telling you TRUTH etc etc and tI think those are valid criticisms, when compared with existing Discordian writings. However, I don't think one must compare one Discordian writing with another to determine if it 'is Discordian'.
If I had to slot the BiP somewhere, it would probably be as a RAW inspired essay, more than a Discordian one. That is, its message and argument seem, to me, more closely aligned with the concepts RAW was hyperfocused on than those that Thornley, Benares, Hill etc were focused on. A post-Illuminatus/Cosmic Trigger/Prometheus Rising kind of Discordia, modified by the Stark Fist method of the Sub Geniuses.
Maybe the better question is "Should we pigeonhole the BiP as a Discordian writing?"
Nobody is mixing the Medium with the Message.
While the way the
PD was written* did stress "sillyness" and attempted jokes, that seemed to be the way they were trying to slip the other stuff in there.
There's nothing inherently "funny" about the Lo5, Starbuck's Pebbles, The (An)Eristic Illusions, or the Creative/Destructive grid.
I don't see any humor in the First Revelation of Eris:
QuoteYou have built for yourselves psychic suits of armor, and clad in them, your vision is restricted, your movements are clumsy and painful, your skin is bruised, and your spirit is broiled in the sun.
I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and I tell you that you are free.
The parable of the Bitter Tea isn't really that funny.
The Sermon on Ethics and Love is bittersweet and cynical.
The Legend of Greyface has this as the moral: "mankind has since been suffering from a psychological and spiritual imbalance. Imbalance causes frustration, and frustration causes fear. And fear makes for a bad trip. Man has been on a bad trip for a long time now." Ha-ha?
They spend an entire page to discuss entropy. In a very non-humorous way.
The whole section on the Sacred Chao doesn't have a single joke.
"Nonsense as Salvation" isn't about being funny, it's about "Salvation from an ugly and barbarous existence that is the result of taking order so seriously and so seriously fearing contrary orders and disorder, that GAMES are taken as more important than LIFE; rather than taking LIFE AS THE ART OF PLAYING GAMES."
The rest is simply the spoonful of sugar to make the rest of it go down. The
PD used humor to get its message across, but the message itself isn't really all that funny.
Until you understand it. And then, it's more like Horrormirth.
*And let's not forget it was only the POEE Cabal's interpretation...
The bit about reality grids ("The Sacred Chao", pg 49) and Starbuck's Pebbles are two of what I would consider the most important parts of the PD, and they aren't exactly a barrel of lulz.
And the BIP has plenty of funny shit, it was just more hard-edged (dare I say, Darker and Edgier, but only just). The interview with the "real" Queen of England, the Parable of the Gong, and Roger's "What the Hell Are You Doing?" are funny as hell, and several, if not most, of the other pieces have at least one joke or gag in them.
But then again, so what if the BIP is considered only sort of Discordian? There's really nothing wrong with that, as far as I'm concerned. Some people will be attracted to the PD, others will be attracted to the BIP, and some will be attracted to both. They both lead to similar (albeit not identical) trains of thought while presenting their ideas in very different packaging. If someone who would really grok the ideas as they are presented in the PD gets exposed to the BIP as their first "Discordian" work, they might be turned off to the whole thing and never bother with the PD, or vice-versa.
Quote from: LMNO on June 02, 2009, 06:55:34 PM
Nobody is mixing the Medium with the Message.
While the way the PD was written* did stress "sillyness" and attempted jokes, that seemed to be the way they were trying to slip the other stuff in there.
There's nothing inherently "funny" about the Lo5, Starbuck's Pebbles, The (An)Eristic Illusions, or the Creative/Destructive grid.
I don't see any humor in the First Revelation of Eris:
QuoteYou have built for yourselves psychic suits of armor, and clad in them, your vision is restricted, your movements are clumsy and painful, your skin is bruised, and your spirit is broiled in the sun.
I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and I tell you that you are free.
The parable of the Bitter Tea isn't really that funny.
The Sermon on Ethics and Love is bittersweet and cynical.
The Legend of Greyface has this as the moral: "mankind has since been suffering from a psychological and spiritual imbalance. Imbalance causes frustration, and frustration causes fear. And fear makes for a bad trip. Man has been on a bad trip for a long time now." Ha-ha?
They spend an entire page to discuss entropy. In a very non-humorous way.
The whole section on the Sacred Chao doesn't have a single joke.
"Nonsense as Salvation" isn't about being funny, it's about "Salvation from an ugly and barbarous existence that is the result of taking order so seriously and so seriously fearing contrary orders and disorder, that GAMES are taken as more important than LIFE; rather than taking LIFE AS THE ART OF PLAYING GAMES."
The rest is simply the spoonful of sugar to make the rest of it go down. The PD used humor to get its message across, but the message itself isn't really all that funny.
Until you understand it. And then, it's more like Horrormirth.
*And let's not forget it was only the POEE Cabal's interpretation...
I think all of this is true in some sense.
That is, the first edition of the PD, at least according to Omar, Mal etc was intentionally absurdist humor. Mal-2 was a hardcore atheist and was interested, first and foremost in exposing religion via reductio ad absurdum. In the process of collecting this silly joke and that weird pesudo-religious essay, something further clicked... the memes they were collecting became a memetic entity and grew from there.
I think that the later editions of the PD and other works by the authors tried to walk the line of 'mastering nonsense as well as they mastered sense'... so that both were exposed as being Absurd. This (IMO) seems to be one of the areas that the BiP is somewhat weak on. IE it feels like a serious book that seriously takes itself seriously. That's not necessarily 'not Discordian', but it does seem to skirt the edge of recognizing the absurdity of the Reality we live in. At the end, we have no final analysis that says "And we wrote all of this from the comfort of our cell, we have no idea if this is true, or just mad scribblings inspired by a life sentence in our own BiP". At the end, you feel as though the author/s have 'laid down the Truth', rather than played a game of ordering and disordering.
Everytime someone critiques the BiP, I try to see why... and generally, it boils down to 'Too Serious, Not Funny, Not Absurd, Not Optimistic..." I have begun to think that all of those critiques may really be trying to state the same thing. I have no delusion that Discordian works MUST have absurdity, or must not take themselves seriously... but I certainly understand why some people might. I don't think it has anything to do with 'needing to reread the PD' or Not Really Understanding Discordianism... but rather its an expectation for the game, for the sense/nonsense for the unseriousness in the final assessment.
We can find serious essays in the PD, as LMNO points out, but they are juxtaposed with unserious essays/rants/songs/pictures. The beauty of the final essay on Salvation is that it deconstructs the entire PD, everything they've just told you is still a game, ordering and disordering, sense and nonsense to expose the absurdity of the whole shebang. Indeed, I have come to think that these very arguments about the BiP Discordian credentials are a shining example of this absurdity. Sense (the BiP) vs. Nonsense (mosbunal existing Discordian writings) = People arguing about what is or isn't discordian (Absurdity)... the extraction is at a much higher level than we're used to (ie entire works of sense vs nonsense) rather than both in a single book, but the basic idea seems right.
If the BiP had poked at itself, as well as it poked at the reader, I think more people would perceive it as naturally Discordian. Since it doens't tend to poke at itself, it seems understandable that some people find it 'undiscordian'.... whatever that may mean.
:lulz:
Quote from: Cainad on June 02, 2009, 07:01:34 PM
But then again, so what if the BIP is considered only sort of Discordian? There's really nothing wrong with that, as far as I'm concerned. Some people will be attracted to the PD, others will be attracted to the BIP, and some will be attracted to both. They both lead to similar (albeit not identical) trains of thought while presenting their ideas in very different packaging. If someone who would really grok the ideas as they are presented in the PD gets exposed to the BIP as their first "Discordian" work, they might be turned off to the whole thing and never bother with the PD, or vice-versa.
A very good point. If 'Discordian' is not really definable, than either side of the argument is correct. It's Discordian for the sorts of people that consider the BiP Discordian, its not Discordian for the people that don't consider the BiP Discordian. Trying to force the issue one way or the other is ...
Absurd ;-)
Quote from: Nigel on June 02, 2009, 06:45:59 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on June 02, 2009, 06:38:48 PM
I'm not involved in the BIP, but take a passing interest every so often
I just wanna point out to nobody that as far as I know there is nothing really stopping him from creating his own project...
I've noticed that there are a lot more people who are interested in telling other people how they "should have done" a project than there are people who are interested in doing their own projects.
Agree
What this comes down to in my mind is something doesn't speak to that person for what ever reason. Which is alright. As I said many times I'm not a fan of RAW, and never had been.
Start your own thing... of course I understand that a lot of time there is no time - oh boy do I understand....
But look at other religions - some teacher gives a lesson and then there is a million interpretations of his teachings
I guess the same should apply for made up religions... in fact it should probably apply even more for made up religions, since we have the ability and duty of just making it up on the spot.
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on June 02, 2009, 07:21:47 PM
Quote from: Nigel on June 02, 2009, 06:45:59 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on June 02, 2009, 06:38:48 PM
I'm not involved in the BIP, but take a passing interest every so often
I just wanna point out to nobody that as far as I know there is nothing really stopping him from creating his own project...
I've noticed that there are a lot more people who are interested in telling other people how they "should have done" a project than there are people who are interested in doing their own projects.
Agree
What this comes down to in my mind is something doesn't speak to that person for what ever reason. Which is alright. As I said many times I'm not a fan of RAW, and never had been.
Start your own thing... of course I understand that a lot of time there is no time - oh boy do I understand....
But look at other religions - some teacher gives a lesson and then there is a million interpretations of his teachings
I guess the same should apply for made up religions... in fact it should probably apply even more for made up religions, since we have the ability and duty of just making it up on the spot.
you mean, as if we were all Popes? :fnord:
Quote from: RatThat's not necessarily 'not Discordian', but it does seem to skirt the edge of recognizing the absurdity of the Reality we live in. At the end, we have no final analysis that says "And we wrote all of this from the comfort of our cell, we have no idea if this is true, or just mad scribblings inspired by a life sentence in our own BiP". At the end, you feel as though the author/s have 'laid down the Truth', rather than played a game of ordering and disordering.
Ahem...
Quote from: BIP, pages 14-15The guy sitting next to you, they're focusing on completely different things than you are. Their entire upbringing has pretty much determined what they're going to pay attention to, just as your entire life up to this point has shaped what you're looking at right now. You know what this means, right? This means that everyone is living in a different Idea of the Universe than everyone else. It's a miracle that we can agree on anything. Just imagine, billions of people, all looking out at a different Universe from between the bars of their own personal Prison. "Okay, big guy," you say, "So what's really out there, if you're so smart?" I have to tell you...
I don't know. I have the same blinders that you do. I live in the same kind of box. But I will say one thing. My saying "I don't know" doesn't mean, "I don't know, and I don't care, because there's no way to escape the biology of my sense." I say, "I don't know, but I want to find out. I want to try and see and feel as much as I can, I don't want to take somebody's word for it, I want to keep exploring, and figuring shit out. I want to walk out of my Prison Cell, even if I just end up in another one. I'm not content only seeing a fraction of what's out there.
Because hey, who knows what kind of fun I'm missing?
I don't like Rata's answers.
Therefore, he is not Discordian.
After all, I like Discordianism.
But I do not like Rata's answers.
Ta-da! Cold hard logic.
(http://brendenwood.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/hughjackmanstandingovation.gif)
Discordianism is what you want it to be. That's why you're all a bunch of popes in the first place.
Quote from: B_R|S on June 02, 2009, 08:58:48 PM
Discordianism is what you want it to be. That's why you're all a bunch of popes in the first place.
Bollocks. I joined this band of spags hoping it was a way to get rich quick.
When I think of Discordian works being "funny," I tend to think of them as being funny in that the reaction you have to them is laughter. That doesn't necessarily mean they are jokes or that they are humorous, but there's something in the snap at the end of a piece of Discordian literature that evokes laughter -- and it usually isn't "funny" laughter like you'd have after somebody just told a joke, but the kind of laughter you have when you don't know how else to react, and screaming would be inappropriate for some reason.
I'd say that jokes have punchlines, and Discordian works have snaplines. They can both make you laugh, but only one of them stings.
Quote from: vexati0n on June 02, 2009, 09:35:14 PM
When I think of Discordian works being "funny," I tend to think of them as being funny in that the reaction you have to them is laughter. That doesn't necessarily mean they are jokes or that they are humorous, but there's something in the snap at the end of a piece of Discordian literature that evokes laughter -- and it usually isn't "funny" laughter like you'd have after somebody just told a joke, but the kind of laughter you have when you don't know how else to react, and screaming would be inappropriate for some reason.
I'd say that jokes have punchlines, and Discordian works have snaplines. They can both make you laugh, but only one of them stings.
Excellent observation... I like 'snaplines'.
But I think the BIP qualifies because it has that atmosphere of someone just coming out and telling you what you have already been suspecting but didn't want to admit to yourself. It isn't as light-hearted or as silly as the PD, but it's still a slap in the face forcing you to come to terms with what's "really bugging you."
riffing on nobody's assertation that discordia is "enlightenment through absurdity", the BIP could be considered discordian because it suggests that you estrange youself from your identity.
Estrange really is a good word for it --
Estrange
1 : to remove from customary environment or associations
2 : to arouse especially mutual enmity or indifference in where there had formerly been love, affection, or friendliness
Quote from: vexati0n on June 02, 2009, 10:00:22 PM
But I think the BIP qualifies because it has that atmosphere of someone just coming out and telling you what you have already been suspecting but didn't want to admit to yourself. It isn't as light-hearted or as silly as the PD, but it's still a slap in the face forcing you to come to terms with what's "really bugging you."
I think its the "really" bit that bugs some people... even in the self-deprecating bit LMNO quoted... it was self-deprecation on the part of the author, not the work. The author admits he doesn't know much outside his cell... but still assumes that the Cell is real and the BiP is a prison etc etc... there isn't a "wipe thine ass on what is written" vibe to it at all... for some Discordians (including me the first time I read it) it seems to come across as alien from a Discordian perspective.
I still think absurdism is the key, I note that since I tried to post this and failed, Cramulus has made a very good comment on that.
Quote from: Cramulus on June 02, 2009, 10:02:46 PM
riffing on nobody's assertation that discordia is "enlightenment through absurdity", the BIP could be considered discordian because it suggests that you estrange youself from your identity.
Estrange really is a good word for it --
Estrange
1 : to remove from customary environment or associations
2 : to arouse especially mutual enmity or indifference in where there had formerly been love, affection, or friendliness
The BiP and the PD both seem to push absurdest thought 'Reality is what you make it, the 'purpose of life' is what you define'. Estranging yourself from your identity is an excellent addition to that for both books... and I'd argue that we could probably point to 'mosbunal' "Discordian" writings and see very similar underlying currents.
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on June 02, 2009, 06:14:28 PM
nobody is a fucking moron.
I beginning to think this statement is correct
big time
for starters, I believe the BIP to be a Discordian work because it has been written by Discordian Popes as the result of a Discussion on Discordian Matters.
(shut up--I'm not going to define Discordian Matters for you, does Nobody think for himself anymore?)
and then, I may agree with LMNO, there were lots of serious pieces in the PD, they all just happened to be sprinkled with drawings and quotes and little absurdities in the margins. the BIP doesn't really have much of that. I think it would go down a lot better with your average Discordian critic if the BIP had more fnords and absurd bits in the margins to sugarcoat it for the pineal23flazzle*. I'm not sure if it should have those, but that's what sets it apart from the PD, mostly.
* defined as that bit of the brain which responds positively to deep philosophical stuff coated in absurd bits in the margins
LMNO pretty much nailed it in my estimation. I think there is a reason the PD has that tagline near the end, "If you think this was just a ha-ha, go read it again."
I think the BIP has a tagline too, "If you think this is just a bunch of doom and gloom, go read it again."
Because I don't understand how anyone can read the thing, I mean really read it and consider it, and come up with the conclusions that it is a)too dark and b) not discordian. Of course it is Discordian, because it is addressing some of the same philosophical ideas embedded and spelled out in the PD. It is just more streamlined for his and her pleasure. And also I think it was helpful to give it a modernized treatment, for the kids of today.
I would go further and suggest it is a GOOD thing that a Discordian work strips away the cliche and superficial nyuks to reinforce the idea that Discordianism isn't just about running around town with your buddies shouting out fnords to everyone. Discordianism is more than being a Monty Python tribute comedy act.
To me Discordianism is really about reframing and reconsidering your thinking mechanisms. That you've been on autopilot for all of these years and the PD and the BIP are both suggesting you take a step back, and really examine how you think and how you react to the world. BIP isn't dark, it IS hopeful. Because I think it is a powerful gift and tool for a person to really be able to understand why they are where they are and what kind of thinking got them, and those around them, in that very spot. That's my two cents anyway.
I admit in advance this may be a stupid suggestion
but the BIP was originally conceived of with energy intended for "the PD 06"...
Maybe it's time to write the BIP 09?
It's a bit unsettling that we started this three fucking years ago...
Anyway, if we were to do this again, I'd suggest alternating nonlulz pieces (2 man con, etc) with lulzy pieces (parable of the sacred bull, et al). So, it sort of alternates amusing anectdotes with srzbznz.
I think it is a good idea.
The trick is getting it to happen to completion.
Though, considering we have, what, 4 or 5 issues of Intermittens, it may not be that lofty of a goal.
We have had some interesting discussions since BIP. Of course the Shrapnel/Paths stuff comes to mind for me. I could work that into a more focused essay.
The BIP isn't exactly a Discordian work.
Hey, I'm sorry.
I dunno what for yet, but I think I'm going to get told soon.
I might be sorry that I didn't pick a side, but I'm selling a case anyway. That's kinda disingenuous. Or I might be sorry that I'm criticizing the BIP, because I've definitely never put up my own Discordian works on a site, and I do think that's a pretty noble goal. Or, I dunno. Maybe I'm sorry that I'm going to opine that there are things that really fnord
aren't Discordian, which runs counter to the spirit of the movement.
The BIP isn't exactly Discordian because it's selling us something. Specifically, it's selling us fnord.
Here's what the first page of the BIP says, but I'm going to help you see the fnords. Some of them.
QuoteYou think you just woke up here one day, right? FNORD Think again. It was your whole life that brought you to this. Fact is, you were born to be here. Go ahead, look around. I'll be here when you get back.
Looks smaller than it is, don't it? Sometimes, it doesn't even feel all that bad. But stillÉ You look through those FNORD bars, and you see all that you're FNORD missing. Hopes. Dreams. What could-have-been. Here, put your palms up to the Black Iron, grab the FNORD bars, let me show you something.
FNORD Feel that? That's all the books you've read. And that entire FNORD wall over there is your adolescence. Look FNORD up: It's your CD collection. The FNORD floor you woke up on? Your parents. Like I said, you were born to be here. It's your life, it's the FNORD cold FNORD trap of your own existence. You painted yourself into a FNORD corner.
So, now you're wondering why you feel FNORD trapped here, in your own life. Why now, why today, can you see the FNORD bars of a Black Iron FNORD Prison that you made for yourself? Because you stopped reacting, and took a couple of steps forward. You thought you could do what you wanted, you tried to be self reliant, and FNORD bang. You smacked your head against the FNORD wall.
What's that? Yeah. That's when the FNORD claustrophobia sets in. When you didn't know you were FNORD trapped, everything was fine. But now that you know, you can see your entire, FNORD tired, FNORD monotonous life stretch out before you, FNORD trapped in these 4 walls, these 6 sides. Breathe, kid. It's just abject FNORD FNORD panic that you're feeling right now. Some even say that this is what FNORD death feels like: An unchanging life, immune and FNORD unfeeling to what you FNORD really want.
Look around you. Look at these cold, FNORD black bars. The FNORD colorless ceiling. The FNORD hard ground. FNORD That's your universe. That's the world you're going to be living in for the FNORD rest of your life here in FNORD Prison. You're going to live out your life in FNORD quiet FNORD desperation. Or, not so quiet if you decide to take the rife/bell tower route. Either way, FNORD long or FNORD short, it'll feel the same. FNORD Dead, unchanging.
So, if you're interested, I'd like to invite you to a jailbreak... (DRONF!) Just turn around.
It's bad juju, man. We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively? This is our left-foot path.
But here's the deal: That doesn't quite make it not-Discordian. This was written by someone who knows there are fnords out there. The thing is, I'm not sold they can really
see them. This is black magic written by Good Charlotte. You've got the candles and you've a candance and I hope to somebody's God you remembered the salt, but I'd still bet against you on demons showing up.
Until you know what you want, you can only get things you don't. Do you want to chase them out of the darkness with the slavering jaws of FNORDs? Then you're going to need to be a lot more ruthless. Do you want to play the kindly woodsman like Omar and Mal? Then drop the wolfman mask.
Hail Eris. But hot or cold, man, or she's gonna spit it out.
Ummm...the tone of the BIP is intentionally unsettling. It's a big part of the delivery.
Are you saying that because it isn't fluffy hippy mumbo-jumbo it isn't "Discordian"? If so, please step back for a moment and rebuke yourself for such a flagrant oversight. Thank you.
I am not.
Good, because we get lots those!
But what do you mean by the BIP running contrary to the spirit of Discordianism?
You've claimed to be 16 on these boards. Is this accurate?
If you're comfortable with it, I'm also curious what gender you consider yourself. (Your posts indicate androgyny; is this an accurate gender assessment?) I am not concerned with your sex.
I'm asking because your post content is not significant enough for me to build a profile, and my initial post is clearly insufficient to communicate with you. I'm not interested in talking over or around you. My next query, regardless of the answers to the previous two, will be how much of the 'background' Discordian material you're familiar with (The writings of RAW, Leary's works, Taoism, the contents of either the original or refurbished POEE.org, etc. Semiotics and experimental linguistics would be on the list, but your post content does touch on those subjects). If there's something else you think would be more relevant instead, please share that.
I'm a little disturbed that you want me to give background information about myself in response to a question about an earlier post. But I'll go along with it. I am in fact 16. And gender, er, well, I don't give that sort of thing much thought. Doesn't weigh on my mind much. So let's just say androgynous. I've read RAW and both the original and refurbished and POEE site. I do have a passing interest in linguistics. I enjoy Japanese traditional arts and assorted custard desserts. Any more information and you'll have to buy me lunch.
Anyway, back to the original topic: The thing I was confused about is that you seem to believe that the way in which the BIP uses fnords offensively makes in not quite Discordian. What is it about using fnords to affect others and their thought processes unDiscordian? Is it so even when the intent is to alter their thought processes towards a more liberated state?
Quote from: ArafelisYou've claimed to be 16 on these boards. Is this accurate?
If you're comfortable with it, I'm also curious what gender you consider yourself. (Your posts indicate androgyny; is this an accurate gender assessment?) I am not concerned with your sex.
I'm asking because your post content is not significant enough for me to build a profile, and my initial post is clearly insufficient to communicate with you. I'm not interested in talking over or around you. My next query, regardless of the answers to the previous two, will be how much of the 'background' Discordian material you're familiar with (The writings of RAW, Leary's works, Taoism, the contents of either the original or refurbished POEE.org, etc. Semiotics and experimental linguistics would be on the list, but your post content does touch on those subjects). If there's something else you think would be more relevant instead, please share that.
You don't need to know everything about a person to talk to them. Surprisingly, because I am capable of using language, I am capable of expressing quite complicated ideas to a broad audience, people who I may never know at all! This is why we have things like 'the written word'. It's pretty astounding, I know.
Regardless. I'm interested in your dismissal, and the rather strange way you are choosing to go about challenging the assertion that the BIP isn't a Discordian work. Since you seem to think this is relevent; I'm very familiar with the background material referenced, excluding Taoism.
Discordian works, however, are a particular subset of the broader context, so the rest is only arguably related. It has been established, I think, that the majority of people here believe the primary characteristic of Discordian work to be an attempt to broaden the horizons of readers (who we may never meet or know in any real sense!) outside of the general assumptions that they live their daily lives in.
You could consider it fighting FNORDS with FNORDS if you like. But I suspect if you keep using that terminology, you might get lynched. :wink:
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 06:38:29 AMThe BIP isn't exactly a Discordian work.
Hey, I'm sorry.
I dunno what for yet, but I think I'm going to get told soon.
I might be sorry that I didn't pick a side, but I'm selling a case anyway. That's kinda disingenuous. Or I might be sorry that I'm criticizing the BIP, because I've definitely never put up my own Discordian works on a site, and I do think that's a pretty noble goal. Or, I dunno. Maybe I'm sorry that I'm going to opine that there are things that really fnordaren't Discordian, which runs counter to the spirit of the movement.
The BIP isn't exactly Discordian because it's selling us something. Specifically, it's selling us fnord.
Here's what the first page of the BIP says, but I'm going to help you see the fnords. Some of them.
QuoteYou think you just woke up here one day, right? FNORD Think again. It was your whole life that brought you to this. Fact is, you were born to be here. Go ahead, look around. I’ll be here when you get back.
Looks smaller than it is, don’t it? Sometimes, it doesn’t even feel all that bad. But stillÉ You look through those FNORD bars, and you see all that you’re FNORD missing. Hopes. Dreams. What could-have-been. Here, put your palms up to the Black Iron, grab the FNORD bars, let me show you something.
FNORD Feel that? That’s all the books you’ve read. And that entire FNORD wall over there is your adolescence. Look FNORD up: It’s your CD collection. The FNORD floor you woke up on? Your parents. Like I said, you were born to be here. It’s your life, it’s the FNORD cold FNORD trap of your own existence. You painted yourself into a FNORD corner.
So, now you’re wondering why you feel FNORD trapped here, in your own life. Why now, why today, can you see the FNORD bars of a Black Iron FNORD Prison that you made for yourself? Because you stopped reacting, and took a couple of steps forward. You thought you could do what you wanted, you tried to be self reliant, and FNORD bang. You smacked your head against the FNORD wall.
What’s that? Yeah. That’s when the FNORD claustrophobia sets in. When you didn’t know you were FNORD trapped, everything was fine. But now that you know, you can see your entire, FNORD tired, FNORD monotonous life stretch out before you, FNORD trapped in these 4 walls, these 6 sides. Breathe, kid. It’s just abject FNORD FNORD panic that you’re feeling right now. Some even say that this is what FNORD death feels like: An unchanging life, immune and FNORD unfeeling to what you FNORD really want.
Look around you. Look at these cold, FNORD black bars. The FNORD colorless ceiling. The FNORD hard ground. FNORD That’s your universe. That’s the world you’re going to be living in for the FNORD rest of your life here in FNORD Prison. You’re going to live out your life in FNORD quiet FNORD desperation. Or, not so quiet if you decide to take the rife/bell tower route. Either way, FNORD long or FNORD short, it’ll feel the same. FNORD Dead, unchanging.
So, if you’re interested, I’d like to invite you to a jailbreak... (DRONF!) Just turn around.
It's bad juju, man. We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively? This is our left-foot path.
But here's the deal: That doesn't quite make it not-Discordian. This was written by someone who knows there are fnords out there. The thing is, I'm not sold they can really see them. This is black magic written by Good Charlotte. You've got the candles and you've a candance and I hope to somebody's God you remembered the salt, but I'd still bet against you on demons showing up.
Until you know what you want, you can only get things you don't. Do you want to chase them out of the darkness with the slavering jaws of FNORDs? Then you're going to need to be a lot more ruthless. Do you want to play the kindly woodsman like Omar and Mal? Then drop the wolfman mask.
Hail Eris. But hot or cold, man, or she's gonna spit it out.
I would really appreciate if you could try to make this point again without using the word Fnord. The PD itself only uses the word as a nonsense word, but you seem to be going with the "invisible word signifiying unconscious discomfort" as put forth in the Illuminatus Trilogy, which is a work of fiction and weaves a rather specific concept partly borrowed from 1984 into the overall conspiracy story of the book, and then, as an afterthought attaches the word Fnord from the PD to this concept.
Now that it's a work of fiction doesn't really matter of course, the PD itself isn't entirely factual either ;-) But it would help if we had an idea exactly up until where you are going along with the (still rather vague) definition of the word in the conspiracy story of the Illuminatus trilogy (I presume that you consider the bit about little kids being brainwashed in schools with "you cant see the fnords or they will eat you" as untrue, for instance).
This is one reason why it would be useful if you could reformulate your argument in modern day language. Another reason is that quite a number of the people on this board have never read the Illuminatus Trilogy, actually there's a good amount of them that have never read the entire PD either. Still some of them consider themselves Discordians, and some of their opinions are considered valuable.
The third and IMO most important reason is that being able to formulate your argument without "Discordian Jargon" shows that you actually are aware of what you are specifically trying to express, that you are capable of thinking for yourself and having critical thoughts about your
own opinions and not just parrotting someone else's words and ideas.
And as for your reading list. A lot of us disagree at least in part with some or more of the concepts explained in the writings of RAW, Leary's works, Taoism and the contents of either the original or refurbished POEE.org (and the PD and the I3 and the Schrodinger Cat Trilogy and Quantum Psychology and Prometheus Rising and ...) there are some really cool ideas in there, but you are generally better off describing them in your own words than saying "If you had read Leary, you'd know that in the 7th circuit molecular DNA consciousness, telepathy through time is in fact possible" because that will be met with ummm .. well :)
Semiotics however, are cool (IMO). You'll find that there are a couple of cunning linguists at this forum that can discuss this subject with a high level of background knowledge. The point however is that the scientific field of semiotics is transparent about separating the unproven theories from the proven and the false ones.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 06:38:29 AM
Do you want to play the kindly woodsman like Omar and Mal?
No.
Thank christ! Finally, someone has arrived who's obviously qualified to teach us all how to be really real discordians. For realness!
Face it everyone - it's what this board needs. In fact it's way overdue.
Please do as it asks and provide as much personal information as is required to assist the expert in their wisdom impartation.
I'm a 50ft tall lesbian trapped in a mans body with a slight speech impediment and a chainsaw fetish - what am I doing wrong? How do I become a proper discordian?
Yes, because one party needs to have personal information about the other in order for there to be effective discussion! But only one, of course.
I'm a houseplant with an interest in geoscience. My hobbies include origami, reading, and welcoming our new all-knowing Discordian overlords.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 06:38:29 AM
The BIP isn't exactly a Discordian work.
Hey, I'm sorry.
I dunno what for yet, but I think I'm going to get told soon.
I might be sorry that I didn't pick a side, but I'm selling a case anyway. That's kinda disingenuous. Or I might be sorry that I'm criticizing the BIP, because I've definitely never put up my own Discordian works on a site, and I do think that's a pretty noble goal. Or, I dunno. Maybe I'm sorry that I'm going to opine that there are things that really fnordaren't Discordian, which runs counter to the spirit of the movement.
The BIP isn't exactly Discordian because it's selling us something. Specifically, it's selling us fnord.
Discordian works can't sell something? Really? The Illuminatus Triliogy isn't selling something? "Reality Is What You Can Get Away With" isn't selling something? Cosmic Trigger, Angel Tech, Zenarchy... not selling eh?
Quote
It's bad juju, man. We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively? This is our left-foot path.
One requires both feet to walk.
Quote
But here's the deal: That doesn't quite make it not-Discordian. This was written by someone who knows there are fnords out there. The thing is, I'm not sold they can really see them. This is black magic written by Good Charlotte. You've got the candles and you've a candance and I hope to somebody's God you remembered the salt, but I'd still bet against you on demons showing up.
Even Egrigores need a day off sometimes.
Quote
Until you know what you want, you can only get things you don't. Do you want to chase them out of the darkness with the slavering jaws of FNORDs? Then you're going to need to be a lot more ruthless. Do you want to play the kindly woodsman like Omar and Mal? Then drop the wolfman mask.
Hail Eris. But hot or cold, man, or she's gonna spit it out.
I wouldn't tell Eris what she likes... I did that once and well, it wasn't pretty.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 06, 2009, 03:40:04 PM
Quote
It's bad juju, man. We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively? This is our left-foot path.
One requires both feet to walk.
Also also also...
FALSE DICHOTOMY! \
:hashishim:
Sorry, I just love saying that.
Quiet you guys, this guy here is out of the box (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=21014.msg711411#msg711411) and just doesnt need a crowbar anymore.
He'd probably prefer if you put away the torches and pitchforks too.
HE'S OUT OF THE FUCKING BOX
Nah
probably just hopped into Thurnley's and Hill's box
Something about the whole fucking attitude reminds me of cartesian dualityism :roll:
LALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU FROM OUTSIDE MY BOX
Quote from: Nasturtiums on June 06, 2009, 09:42:39 AM
I'm a little disturbed that you want me to give background information about myself in response to a question about an earlier post. But I'll go along with it. I am in fact 16. And gender, er, well, I don't give that sort of thing much thought. Doesn't weigh on my mind much. So let's just say androgynous. I've read RAW and both the original and refurbished and POEE site. I do have a passing interest in linguistics. I enjoy Japanese traditional arts and assorted custard desserts. Any more information and you'll have to buy me lunch.
Anyway, back to the original topic: The thing I was confused about is that you seem to believe that the way in which the BIP uses fnords offensively makes in not quite Discordian. What is it about using fnords to affect others and their thought processes unDiscordian? Is it so even when the intent is to alter their thought processes towards a more liberated state?
I want that information because I feel like the top level post ought to answer your question, but it obviously doesn't. So I need to know who I'm talking to in order to craft something a little bit more targeted. It's not your name, sex, and blood type I need to do that -- just a general sense of who you are, who you consider yourself to be. I took the time to read back into your post history about a year, but a lot of your posts are really... well,
short.
I'd be happy to buy you lunch, if you want to fly me out to sunny California from the.. well, also sunny, presently, but that's kind of an aberration... depths of the Philadelphia suburbs. I'm not thinking that's much for a good economic trade-off, so I guess my question is, do you take gift cards?
No, not really. Anyway:
"Fnord" is used by the authors of the Principia Discordia elsewhere to mean words, terminology, and conventions that are designed to interrupt someone's ability to objectively analyze a situation. We see this shit all the time in the media. I mean, headlines are built for it. Take the headline of a local paper from not to long ago: "SWINE FLU SUSPECTED IN COUNTY." You read the article and discover that there is (at least) one person in the county who was tested at a hospital for swine flu. There are no results back yet.
Does that mean people ought to be worried about swine flu? Hell fucking no. But what is the effect -- arguably the intended effect -- of printing a headline like that?
One of the things we've got going for us as Discordians is the ability to see these "fnords." (They're not quite what Wikipedia calls 'weasel words', necessarily, so I'm just going to keep calling them fnords.) We can read that headline and laugh about it, or phone the editor, or whatever. But one of the things very
rarely done in the original body of Discordian works was to
use fnords as a tactic against other people, or at least people we're trying to sort-of-actively convert.
That doesn't mean anything that does so automatically is not-Discordian. OM and other pranks are pretty much
all about the care and fneeding of fnords. But it's a bit like the 'black magic' of Discordianism. So first, I'm cautioning the authors to be aware of that.
Then I'm going on to say that if that's their goal, they're not doing it very well. At least, not well enough. In my endlessly over-humble opinion. If you want to scare somebody, to fuck with their sense of grounding and reality and make them think they're standing on a crumbling sand bar in an ocean filled with shoggoths and the shark from Jaws, you don't do it by running up to them and shouting, "YOU'RE STANDING ON A SANDBAR IN THE MIDDLE OF SHOGGOTH-OCEAN. ALSO THE SHARK FROM JAWS IS THERE." Which is kind of how the BIP reads to me. I don't doubt it was cathartic to write, and it's a bit cathartic to
read, if you're already In On It. But that's not quite the same.
I'm trying to offer kind of a key to the original post, rather than a complete re-post. Does my OP make more sense to you now?
QuoteYou don't need to know everything about a person to talk to them. Surprisingly, because I am capable of using language, I am capable of expressing quite complicated ideas to a broad audience, people who I may never know at all! This is why we have things like 'the written word'. It's pretty astounding, I know.
Yeah, but it's not always that effective. Who do you communicate better with: a crowd of strangers, or a group of people you know?
Okay, okay, for you it may be the crowd of strangers. For me, it's the other one. (And I feel bad, because I want to reply to this flood of responses right now, but I don't have the time to read up on all the people I'm replying to.)
QuoteDiscordian works, however, are a particular subset of the broader context, so the rest is only arguably related. It has been established, I think, that the majority of people here believe the primary characteristic of Discordian work to be an attempt to broaden the horizons of readers (who we may never meet or know in any real sense!) outside of the general assumptions that they live their daily lives in.
I think this conversation is one we're going to be having for a while. I don't think that assumption is wrong, but I think there is a lot more, or at least potentially more, to what Discordian works mean/contain/
do.
QuoteYou could consider it fighting FNORDS with FNORDS if you like. But I suspect if you keep using that terminology, you might get lynched.
Oh, geez. Surrealistic suburban noir always gives me gas.
QuoteThis is one reason why it would be useful if you could reformulate your argument in modern day language. Another reason is that quite a number of the people on this board have never read the Illuminatus Trilogy, actually there's a good amount of them that have never read the entire PD either. Still some of them consider themselves Discordians, and some of their opinions are considered valuable.
The third and IMO most important reason is that being able to formulate your argument without "Discordian Jargon" shows that you actually are aware of what you are specifically trying to express, that you are capable of thinking for yourself and having critical thoughts about your own opinions and not just parrotting someone else's words and ideas.
It's jargon, sure, but in-community jargon. I think I explained above pretty well what I mean when I say 'fnord,' although I'm a bit surprised to find that the community congregated around PD doesn't already have a solid sense of it. I can understand that there's a varying level of 'background literacy,' but I feel a bit like a Jewish scholar who's being asked to talk about Judaism to a group of rabbis, but not use the term 'mitzvah' because not everybody knows exactly what it means or where it's from.
I knew I was going to be sorry for something. ;) I'm going to leave my reply to Nasturtiums as my 'proof' I have some kind of idea of what I'm talking about -- and my explanation of the term. I feel a bit too besieged at the moment to really try the tabula rasa thing just yet.
QuoteI'm bored, and I don't like your tone or word choices.
Geez, I always thought the T-Shirt was a lie, but here I am: I slept, and the clowns ate me.
QuoteDiscordian works can't sell something? Really? The Illuminatus Triliogy isn't selling something? "Reality Is What You Can Get Away With" isn't selling something? Cosmic Trigger, Angel Tech, Zenarchy... not selling eh?
I'd characterize several of those works as selling as little as possible, and one of the things they're not explicitly not selling is fnords. But I'll accept my chastisement meekly. Ish.
QuoteLALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU FROM OUTSIDE MY BOX
You keep your ears in your vagina? :?
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 06:38:29 AM
The BIP isn't exactly a Discordian work.
Hey, I'm sorry.
I dunno what for yet, but I think I'm going to get told soon.
I might be sorry that I didn't pick a side, but I'm selling a case anyway. That's kinda disingenuous. Or I might be sorry that I'm criticizing the BIP, because I've definitely never put up my own Discordian works on a site, and I do think that's a pretty noble goal. Or, I dunno. Maybe I'm sorry that I'm going to opine that there are things that really fnordaren't Discordian, which runs counter to the spirit of the movement.
The BIP isn't exactly Discordian because it's selling us something. Specifically, it's selling us fnord.
Here's what the first page of the BIP says, but I'm going to help you see the fnords. Some of them.
QuoteYou think you just woke up here one day, right? FNORD Think again. It was your whole life that brought you to this. Fact is, you were born to be here. Go ahead, look around. I'll be here when you get back.
Looks smaller than it is, don't it? Sometimes, it doesn't even feel all that bad. But stillÉ You look through those FNORD bars, and you see all that you're FNORD missing. Hopes. Dreams. What could-have-been. Here, put your palms up to the Black Iron, grab the FNORD bars, let me show you something.
FNORD Feel that? That's all the books you've read. And that entire FNORD wall over there is your adolescence. Look FNORD up: It's your CD collection. The FNORD floor you woke up on? Your parents. Like I said, you were born to be here. It's your life, it's the FNORD cold FNORD trap of your own existence. You painted yourself into a FNORD corner.
So, now you're wondering why you feel FNORD trapped here, in your own life. Why now, why today, can you see the FNORD bars of a Black Iron FNORD Prison that you made for yourself? Because you stopped reacting, and took a couple of steps forward. You thought you could do what you wanted, you tried to be self reliant, and FNORD bang. You smacked your head against the FNORD wall.
What's that? Yeah. That's when the FNORD claustrophobia sets in. When you didn't know you were FNORD trapped, everything was fine. But now that you know, you can see your entire, FNORD tired, FNORD monotonous life stretch out before you, FNORD trapped in these 4 walls, these 6 sides. Breathe, kid. It's just abject FNORD FNORD panic that you're feeling right now. Some even say that this is what FNORD death feels like: An unchanging life, immune and FNORD unfeeling to what you FNORD really want.
Look around you. Look at these cold, FNORD black bars. The FNORD colorless ceiling. The FNORD hard ground. FNORD That's your universe. That's the world you're going to be living in for the FNORD rest of your life here in FNORD Prison. You're going to live out your life in FNORD quiet FNORD desperation. Or, not so quiet if you decide to take the rife/bell tower route. Either way, FNORD long or FNORD short, it'll feel the same. FNORD Dead, unchanging.
So, if you're interested, I'd like to invite you to a jailbreak... (DRONF!) Just turn around.
It's bad juju, man. We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively? This is our left-foot path.
But here's the deal: That doesn't quite make it not-Discordian. This was written by someone who knows there are fnords out there. The thing is, I'm not sold they can really see them. This is black magic written by Good Charlotte. You've got the candles and you've a candance and I hope to somebody's God you remembered the salt, but I'd still bet against you on demons showing up.
Until you know what you want, you can only get things you don't. Do you want to chase them out of the darkness with the slavering jaws of FNORDs? Then you're going to need to be a lot more ruthless. Do you want to play the kindly woodsman like Omar and Mal? Then drop the wolfman mask.
Hail Eris. But hot or cold, man, or she's gonna spit it out.
"If you think this all was just a ha-ha, go back and read it again."
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 06:38:29 AM
The BIP isn't exactly a Discordian work.
Hey, I'm sorry.
I dunno what for yet, but I think I'm going to get told soon.
I might be sorry that I didn't pick a side, but I'm selling a case anyway. That's kinda disingenuous. Or I might be sorry that I'm criticizing the BIP, because I've definitely never put up my own Discordian works on a site, and I do think that's a pretty noble goal. Or, I dunno. Maybe I'm sorry that I'm going to opine that there are things that really fnordaren't Discordian, which runs counter to the spirit of the movement.
The BIP isn't exactly Discordian because it's selling us something. Specifically, it's selling us fnord.
Here's what the first page of the BIP says, but I'm going to help you see the fnords. Some of them.
QuoteYou think you just woke up here one day, right? FNORD Think again. It was your whole life that brought you to this. Fact is, you were born to be here. Go ahead, look around. I'll be here when you get back.
Looks smaller than it is, don't it? Sometimes, it doesn't even feel all that bad. But stillÉ You look through those FNORD bars, and you see all that you're FNORD missing. Hopes. Dreams. What could-have-been. Here, put your palms up to the Black Iron, grab the FNORD bars, let me show you something.
FNORD Feel that? That's all the books you've read. And that entire FNORD wall over there is your adolescence. Look FNORD up: It's your CD collection. The FNORD floor you woke up on? Your parents. Like I said, you were born to be here. It's your life, it's the FNORD cold FNORD trap of your own existence. You painted yourself into a FNORD corner.
So, now you're wondering why you feel FNORD trapped here, in your own life. Why now, why today, can you see the FNORD bars of a Black Iron FNORD Prison that you made for yourself? Because you stopped reacting, and took a couple of steps forward. You thought you could do what you wanted, you tried to be self reliant, and FNORD bang. You smacked your head against the FNORD wall.
What's that? Yeah. That's when the FNORD claustrophobia sets in. When you didn't know you were FNORD trapped, everything was fine. But now that you know, you can see your entire, FNORD tired, FNORD monotonous life stretch out before you, FNORD trapped in these 4 walls, these 6 sides. Breathe, kid. It's just abject FNORD FNORD panic that you're feeling right now. Some even say that this is what FNORD death feels like: An unchanging life, immune and FNORD unfeeling to what you FNORD really want.
Look around you. Look at these cold, FNORD black bars. The FNORD colorless ceiling. The FNORD hard ground. FNORD That's your universe. That's the world you're going to be living in for the FNORD rest of your life here in FNORD Prison. You're going to live out your life in FNORD quiet FNORD desperation. Or, not so quiet if you decide to take the rife/bell tower route. Either way, FNORD long or FNORD short, it'll feel the same. FNORD Dead, unchanging.
So, if you're interested, I'd like to invite you to a jailbreak... (DRONF!) Just turn around.
It's bad juju, man. We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively? This is our left-foot path.
But here's the deal: That doesn't quite make it not-Discordian. This was written by someone who knows there are fnords out there. The thing is, I'm not sold they can really see them. This is black magic written by Good Charlotte. You've got the candles and you've a candance and I hope to somebody's God you remembered the salt, but I'd still bet against you on demons showing up.
Until you know what you want, you can only get things you don't. Do you want to chase them out of the darkness with the slavering jaws of FNORDs? Then you're going to need to be a lot more ruthless. Do you want to play the kindly woodsman like Omar and Mal? Then drop the wolfman mask.
Hail Eris. But hot or cold, man, or she's gonna spit it out.
http://discordia.wikia.com/wiki/Pinealist
I'd consider myself more of an anerist than an erist. But that's my first encounter with that wiki -- thanks for that, whatever else your intentions were.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 08:43:42 AM
You've claimed to be 16 on these boards. Is this accurate?
If you're comfortable with it, I'm also curious what gender you consider yourself. (Your posts indicate androgyny; is this an accurate gender assessment?) I am not concerned with your sex.
I'm asking because your post content is not significant enough for me to build a profile, and my initial post is clearly insufficient to communicate with you. I'm not interested in talking over or around you. My next query, regardless of the answers to the previous two, will be how much of the 'background' Discordian material you're familiar with (The writings of RAW, Leary's works, Taoism, the contents of either the original or refurbished POEE.org, etc. Semiotics and experimental linguistics would be on the list, but your post content does touch on those subjects). If there's something else you think would be more relevant instead, please share that.
I'm so glad you've come to show us what a Really Real Discordian is like!
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 07:14:33 PM
"Fnord" is used by the authors of the Principia Discordia elsewhere to mean words, terminology, and conventions that are designed to interrupt someone's ability to objectively analyze a situation. We see this shit all the time in the media. I mean, headlines are built for it. Take the headline of a local paper from not to long ago: "SWINE FLU SUSPECTED IN COUNTY." You read the article and discover that there is (at least) one person in the county who was tested at a hospital for swine flu. There are no results back yet.
Does that mean people ought to be worried about swine flu? Hell fucking no. But what is the effect -- arguably the intended effect -- of printing a headline like that?
One of the things we've got going for us as Discordians is the ability to see these "fnords." (They're not quite what Wikipedia calls 'weasel words', necessarily, so I'm just going to keep calling them fnords.) We can read that headline and laugh about it, or phone the editor, or whatever. But one of the things very rarely done in the original body of Discordian works was to use fnords as a tactic against other people, or at least people we're trying to sort-of-actively convert.
Dare I say... fucking DUH. Why are you explaining, and overexplaining, the buttfuckingly obvious?
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 08:12:39 PM
It seemed like a good idea at the time. Why'd you feel it necessary to quote my entire post for a one-line reply, then rip off've P3nT4gR4m's insults? Surely you've got a few of your own.
That's not your entire post, Brain Trust.
And why would you think I read Pent's posts? Fuck that guy. :lulz:
Quote from: Nigel on June 06, 2009, 07:49:56 PM
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 06:38:29 AM
The BIP isn't exactly a Discordian work.
Hey, I'm sorry.
I dunno what for yet, but I think I'm going to get told soon.
I might be sorry that I didn't pick a side, but I'm selling a case anyway. That's kinda disingenuous. Or I might be sorry that I'm criticizing the BIP, because I've definitely never put up my own Discordian works on a site, and I do think that's a pretty noble goal. Or, I dunno. Maybe I'm sorry that I'm going to opine that there are things that really fnordaren't Discordian, which runs counter to the spirit of the movement.
The BIP isn't exactly Discordian because it's selling us something. Specifically, it's selling us fnord.
Here's what the first page of the BIP says, but I'm going to help you see the fnords. Some of them.
QuoteYou think you just woke up here one day, right? FNORD Think again. It was your whole life that brought you to this. Fact is, you were born to be here. Go ahead, look around. I'll be here when you get back.
Looks smaller than it is, don't it? Sometimes, it doesn't even feel all that bad. But stillÉ You look through those FNORD bars, and you see all that you're FNORD missing. Hopes. Dreams. What could-have-been. Here, put your palms up to the Black Iron, grab the FNORD bars, let me show you something.
FNORD Feel that? That's all the books you've read. And that entire FNORD wall over there is your adolescence. Look FNORD up: It's your CD collection. The FNORD floor you woke up on? Your parents. Like I said, you were born to be here. It's your life, it's the FNORD cold FNORD trap of your own existence. You painted yourself into a FNORD corner.
So, now you're wondering why you feel FNORD trapped here, in your own life. Why now, why today, can you see the FNORD bars of a Black Iron FNORD Prison that you made for yourself? Because you stopped reacting, and took a couple of steps forward. You thought you could do what you wanted, you tried to be self reliant, and FNORD bang. You smacked your head against the FNORD wall.
What's that? Yeah. That's when the FNORD claustrophobia sets in. When you didn't know you were FNORD trapped, everything was fine. But now that you know, you can see your entire, FNORD tired, FNORD monotonous life stretch out before you, FNORD trapped in these 4 walls, these 6 sides. Breathe, kid. It's just abject FNORD FNORD panic that you're feeling right now. Some even say that this is what FNORD death feels like: An unchanging life, immune and FNORD unfeeling to what you FNORD really want.
Look around you. Look at these cold, FNORD black bars. The FNORD colorless ceiling. The FNORD hard ground. FNORD That's your universe. That's the world you're going to be living in for the FNORD rest of your life here in FNORD Prison. You're going to live out your life in FNORD quiet FNORD desperation. Or, not so quiet if you decide to take the rife/bell tower route. Either way, FNORD long or FNORD short, it'll feel the same. FNORD Dead, unchanging.
So, if you're interested, I'd like to invite you to a jailbreak... (DRONF!) Just turn around.
It's bad juju, man. We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively? This is our left-foot path.
But here's the deal: That doesn't quite make it not-Discordian. This was written by someone who knows there are fnords out there. The thing is, I'm not sold they can really see them. This is black magic written by Good Charlotte. You've got the candles and you've a candance and I hope to somebody's God you remembered the salt, but I'd still bet against you on demons showing up.
Until you know what you want, you can only get things you don't. Do you want to chase them out of the darkness with the slavering jaws of FNORDs? Then you're going to need to be a lot more ruthless. Do you want to play the kindly woodsman like Omar and Mal? Then drop the wolfman mask.
Hail Eris. But hot or cold, man, or she's gonna spit it out.
http://discordia.wikia.com/wiki/Pinealist
Learn2scroll, Train Bust.
Also: Basically what you're saying is you think like Pent, but slower?
Quoting that post was significant for the setup, with the link being the punchline.
Did Pent post that link first?
Oh. I didn't think so.
By the way, Arafailis: http://discordia.wikia.com/wiki/Really_Real_Discordians
Congratulations on being a cliche.
C'mon, kiddo, follow the parsing! What I said was, you quoted an entire post for a single line reply (your first post). Then, in your second post, you did the other thing.
Your, uh, wiki page. That you created just now. It says things on it I find amusing. Can I subscribe to your newsletter? ;) (I may have done so already!)
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 07:14:33 PM"Fnord" is used by the authors of the Principia Discordia elsewhere to mean words, terminology, and conventions that are designed to interrupt someone's ability to objectively analyze a situation.
:cn:, no really. cite the PD for me on Fnords. Only page 10 shows the word a couple of times, but doesn't really say anything about it, or use it in that fashion.
QuoteOne of the things we've got going for us as Discordians is the ability to see these "fnords." (They're not quite what Wikipedia calls 'weasel words', necessarily, so I'm just going to keep calling them fnords.) We can read that headline and laugh about it, or phone the editor, or whatever. But one of the things very rarely done in the original body of Discordian works was to use fnords as a tactic against other people, or at least people we're trying to sort-of-actively convert.
except for some Discordians that like writing "Fnord" on dollar bills.
or taking Fnord to mean what you're describing here (which is again slightly different from the one RAW made up--really it would help if you'd use normal words to express your thoughts),
there is the disinformation spreading Adam Weishaupt Society Cabal, they employed headlines that (I think) you would consider to be Fnords.
and the situational sign pranksters, partly inspired by RAW's Markov Chaney character, changing signs into things that are even more infuriating to people, making them more Fnordy, right? the point there is to slowly but deliberately push the signs into absurdity, hopefully making people a bit more aware.
the BIP employs these "Fnords" for yet another reason. not to subconsciously worry people, either. some of the examples you picked are obviously just artistic license and writing style. but others are on purpose, a slap in the face, not to scare or confuse or hide, but really the opposite. it forces people to consider things they would rather not, things they might be trying to run away from. I'd call those inverted Fnords, if anything.
QuoteQuoteDiscordian works, however, are a particular subset of the broader context, so the rest is only arguably related. It has been established, I think, that the majority of people here believe the primary characteristic of Discordian work to be an attempt to broaden the horizons of readers (who we may never meet or know in any real sense!) outside of the general assumptions that they live their daily lives in.
I think this conversation is one we're going to be having for a while. I don't think that assumption is wrong, but I think there is a lot more, or at least potentially more, to what Discordian works mean/contain/do.
That's why he said "primary characteristic". Not "only characteristic", so yeah there's more.
And if you believe the primary characteristic to be something else, good for you.
But there's not much use in discussing which view of Discordianism is the right one, now is there? Ask two discordians, get three answers, after all.
And FTR, I don't believe it's the primary one either, but just one of the many possible characteristics that a Discordian work can have.
QuoteQuoteThis is one reason why it would be useful if you could reformulate your argument in modern day language. Another reason is that quite a number of the people on this board have never read the Illuminatus Trilogy, actually there's a good amount of them that have never read the entire PD either. Still some of them consider themselves Discordians, and some of their opinions are considered valuable.
The third and IMO most important reason is that being able to formulate your argument without "Discordian Jargon" shows that you actually are aware of what you are specifically trying to express, that you are capable of thinking for yourself and having critical thoughts about your own opinions and not just parrotting someone else's words and ideas.
It's jargon, sure, but in-community jargon. I think I explained above pretty well what I mean when I say 'fnord,' although I'm a bit surprised to find that the community congregated around PD doesn't already have a solid sense of it.
Nah it's just one of the lesser useful terms in Discordianism, I think. As I said before, in the PD it's just a nonsense word. Not until RAW uses this word as part of his Illuminatus conspiracy it--sort of--acquires the meaning you explained, except in the I3 it is an actual invisible word placed there by the Illuminati against which people are brainwashed as kids to feel discomfort about, as opposed to a partial sentence that worries people.
So that's already three different interpretations. Sometimes people will talk about "Fnord as in the Illuminatus Trilogy" to talk about the fictional invisible word, like someone would talk about "the Force in Star Wars" or "Spice in Dune".
When trying to express a concept like yours, however, there are usually regular English words or phrases that express the same notion, except with more nuance and accuracy instead of vague ambiguity. Like, for example, FUD (Fear Uncertainty & Doubt) or indeed "weasel phrase", etc.
In that sense, a lot of us do have a solid sense of the word Fnord, it just happens to be different from your sense of it. Which makes sense, because it's not really a rigidly defined word.
QuoteI can understand that there's a varying level of 'background literacy,' but I feel a bit like a Jewish scholar who's being asked to talk about Judaism to a group of rabbis, but not use the term 'mitzvah' because not everybody knows exactly what it means or where it's from.
No, rather think of it as speaking to a group of christians, jews and atheists with various backgrounds in religion, and being asked not to refer to the Commandments by their number because everybody orders them differently and has a vastly different interpretation of them.
QuoteI knew I was going to be sorry for something. ;) I'm going to leave my reply to Nasturtiums as my 'proof' I have some kind of idea of what I'm talking about -- and my explanation of the term. I feel a bit too besieged at the moment to really try the tabula rasa thing just yet.
no man, true initiation never ends. just dropping a few terms and book titles doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. (often it even signifies the opposite--you know the kind of people I talk about, right?)
I can't assume that you know what you're talking about until I know what you're talking about. I used to have a little teaching job, and the best way to show that you know what you're takling about is being able to explain it in a clear and unambiguous matter.
how about instead of telling us we're doing it wrong, you write an essay (in the Or Kill Me subforum preferably) the way you would have explored and explained the concepts of the BIP, that jives more with your idea of Discordianism? cause even if I don't agree with you in some parts, I bet we would enjoy reading that.
we're pooping out new media all the time anyway, the BIP is just one thing among many. and there's also plans on re-issueing the thing in a 2009 edition (see the Think For Yourself subforum), so go for it :)
another thing I'd like to hear from you is if you can work out your definition of Fnords more precisely. also a separate thread in OKM subforum would be a good place--not this thread, or this forum, apart from the pool on the roof there's not much to find here for SRS BZNS discussion. Just, expect the bit about Fnords to meet more resistance than your personal vision of the BIP. But so far it seems you can take criticism fairly well, and if you can keep the condescending tone down to a minimum (exactly in the way I do not, in this post--I know, sorry), that discussion will be interesting and possibly even broaden your personal ideas about Discordianism as well (really, it can happen, even if you read all the books and got all the DVDs)
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 09:54:16 PM
C'mon, kiddo, follow the parsing! What I said was, you quoted an entire post for a single line reply (your first post). Then, in your second post, you did the other thing.
I will use small words so you can understand.
I know that I quoted your entire post when I replied with a link. I found your post funny when followed by the link to "Pinealist". Quoting your entire post was the setup, and the link was the punchline.
You, stupidly, referred to it several posts later, as if that were a bad thing.
There is no need for you to find it amusing, or even to get it.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 07:14:33 PM
QuoteThis is one reason why it would be useful if you could reformulate your argument in modern day language. Another reason is that quite a number of the people on this board have never read the Illuminatus Trilogy, actually there's a good amount of them that have never read the entire PD either. Still some of them consider themselves Discordians, and some of their opinions are considered valuable.
The third and IMO most important reason is that being able to formulate your argument without "Discordian Jargon" shows that you actually are aware of what you are specifically trying to express, that you are capable of thinking for yourself and having critical thoughts about your own opinions and not just parrotting someone else's words and ideas.
It's jargon, sure, but in-community jargon. I think I explained above pretty well what I mean when I say 'fnord,' although I'm a bit surprised to find that the community congregated around PD doesn't already have a solid sense of it. I can understand that there's a varying level of 'background literacy,' but I feel a bit like a Jewish scholar who's being asked to talk about Judaism to a group of rabbis, but not use the term 'mitzvah' because not everybody knows exactly what it means or where it's from.
The meaning of pretty much everything is debatable here, everyone has there own take on things, and I doubt very much that you were being asked because people didn't know what a fnord was in their own mind, but rather because people want to know how to read your fnords in your context, rather than their own.
Also i think its safe to say that everyone is pretty much bored of fnords by now.
And frankly, as far as BIP not being discordian... Really? Or is it just not discordian in your ultimately false/subjective world view of what is and isn't discordian?
Sorta on a tangent, but it kinda annoys me when people start defining things by what has gone before. If the authors had just written the PD
again they probably woulda suffered criticism for being unoriginal. It seems like people criticise the BIP for being
too different in comparison to what has gone before in Discordian literature. Which strikes me as a little unDiscodian, since lecturing people on being a Really Real Discordian is like.. the hip thing to do at the moment.
x
I love it when people show up and start talking about what it is to be Discordian as if no one else has ever heard of it, and explaining simple concepts as if everyone else is stupid. It's awesome.
Uncle BadTouch, anyone?
Quote"Fnord" is used by the authors of the Principia Discordia elsewhere to mean words, terminology, and conventions that are designed to interrupt someone's ability to objectively analyze a situation.
... cite the PD for me on Fnords. Only page 10 shows the word a couple of times, but doesn't really say anything about it, or use it in that fashion.
Emphasis added for reference.
QuoteBut there's not much use in discussing which view of Discordianism is the right one, now is there? Ask two discordians, get three answers, after all.
There might be a lot to be had by sharing different views, though, and even possibly arguing about what situations some of those are more useful than others in. We might mostly be relativists here, but we don't have to be subjectivists.
Or Objectivists. Those people are stinky.
Quotehow about instead of telling us we're doing it wrong, you write an essay (in the Or Kill Me subforum preferably) the way you would have explored and explained the concepts of the BIP, that jives more with your idea of Discordianism? cause even if I don't agree with you in some parts, I bet we would enjoy reading that.
I'll do something like that, but I'm not in a position to rewrite the BIP. I don't generally produce material that does what the BIP is intended for. (In fact, I think some of the only people who do are Grant Morrison and Jack Chick. One of them more hilariously than the other.) But I'm very glad you asked this -- it's exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to have in
this thread, after I saw the title. I'll take your forum recommendations to heart.
Quoteanother thing I'd like to hear from you is if you can work out your definition of Fnords more precisely.
Also gladly, and something I can do a bit faster than the other. I don't have my copy of Illuminatus! anymore, so I'm sure I'll get called on a point or five, but that's also a discussion I'm unexpectedly interested in having.
Thanks!
Edit:
QuoteSorta on a tangent, but it kinda annoys me when people start defining things by what has gone before. If the authors had just written the PD again they probably woulda suffered criticism for being unoriginal.
Damned if you're new, damned if you're old: the artist's catch-22. I'm not criticizing it for being too different, though -- I'm criticizing it because I think it could be better, at least if the intent is to serve as a introduction or even conversion to Discordianism. Borrowing a bit from an earlier metaphor, it's a bit like comparing Tchaikovsky to Good Charlotte. Are they
almost completely different, and unable to be judged by the same standards? Yeah, absolutely. Is Tchaikovsky
better than Good Charlotte? ...probably, yeah. Or at least, I'd say that Tchaikovsky has a higher musical standard (again, even though it's part of a completely different genre and era) than Good Charlotte does.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 10:25:59 PM
I'll do something like that, but I'm not in a position to rewrite the BIP. I don't generally produce material that does what the BIP is intended for.
So instead you're just going to tell us we're doin' it wrong.
Okay.
QuoteSo instead you're just going to tell us we're doin' it wrong.
Okay.
That's pretty much what critique comes down to, yeah. I'm just going to tell you that you're doing it wrong. (And how it could be made better.)
Quote from: Nigel on June 06, 2009, 10:18:28 PM
I love it when people show up and start talking about what it is to be Discordian as if no one else has ever heard of it, and explaining simple concepts as if everyone else is stupid. It's awesome.
come on, kiddo.
it's, uhm. some Discordians, eh--who am I kidding I just wanted to call you kiddo.
QuoteUncle BadTouch, anyone?
hmmmm no, he turned down the offer of going on a date with an under aged person :lol:
QuoteThere might be a lot to be had by sharing different views, though, and even possibly arguing about what situations some of those are more useful than others in. We might mostly be relativists here, but we don't have to be subjectivists.
Or Objectivists. Those people are stinky.
You'll find some agreement with those statements, yes. Check out the barstool experiment :)
QuoteQuotehow about instead of telling us we're doing it wrong, you write an essay (in the Or Kill Me subforum preferably) the way you would have explored and explained the concepts of the BIP, that jives more with your idea of Discordianism? cause even if I don't agree with you in some parts, I bet we would enjoy reading that.
I'll do something like that, but I'm not in a position to rewrite the BIP. I don't generally produce material that does what the BIP is intended for. (In fact, I think some of the only people who do are Grant Morrison and Jack Chick. One of them more hilariously than the other.) But I'm very glad you asked this -- it's exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to have in this thread, after I saw the title. I'll take your forum recommendations to heart.
Oh, I didnt mean to rewrite it. As you may have noticed, the original BIP is a collection of different authors different views on a common theme. The ideas themselves you don't seem to disagree with entirely, rather the way they're presented. There's lots of people that wrote new essays on, or related to, or building forth upon the BIP (see for example the Shrapnel and Golden Sphere of Possibility discussions in TFYS).
QuoteQuoteanother thing I'd like to hear from you is if you can work out your definition of Fnords more precisely.
Also gladly, and something I can do a bit faster than the other. I don't have my copy of Illuminatus! anymore, so I'm sure I'll get called on a point or five, but that's also a discussion I'm unexpectedly interested in having.
What matters more is your interpretation of it than how it is told in Illuminatus!.
Also, for your reference, a bit of google-fu from my part: http://www.pjosephs.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/illuminatus.html
oh by the way, it seems I was confused about the location of this thread. I wrote my replies thinking this was in Principia Discussion, not in TFYS. Please adjust your understanding accordingly.
Quote from: TSosBR! on June 06, 2009, 10:14:15 PM
And frankly, as far as BIP not being discordian... Really? Or is it just not discordian in your ultimately false/subjective world view of what is and isn't discordian?
Sorta on a tangent, but it kinda annoys me when people start defining things by what has gone before. If the authors had just written the PD again they probably woulda suffered criticism for being unoriginal. It seems like people criticise the BIP for being too different in comparison to what has gone before in Discordian literature.
this
:mittens:
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 10:25:59 PM
QuoteSorta on a tangent, but it kinda annoys me when people start defining things by what has gone before. If the authors had just written the PD again they probably woulda suffered criticism for being unoriginal.
Damned if you're new, damned if you're old: the artist's catch-22. I'm not criticizing it for being too different, though -- I'm criticizing it because I think it could be better, at least if the intent is to serve as a introduction or even conversion to Discordianism. Borrowing a bit from an earlier metaphor, it's a bit like comparing Tchaikovsky to Good Charlotte. Are they almost completely different, and unable to be judged by the same standards? Yeah, absolutely. Is Tchaikovsky better than Good Charlotte? ...probably, yeah. Or at least, I'd say that Tchaikovsky has a higher musical standard (again, even though it's part of a completely different genre and era) than Good Charlotte does.
Actually, Tchaikovsky vs Good Charlotte is more like 1984 vs The Hungry Caterpillar. A more accurate comparison would be to say that BIP vs PD is like 1984 vs Brave New World. Tchaikovsky and Good Charlotte are only linked by the fact they are
musically based in same way that the only realy link between 1984 and the Hungry Caterpillar is that they are literary works. Whereas 1984 and Brave New World are both accomplished works (as far as writing style goes) that are based on a similar subject, but express their views through different ideas. BIP is to the PD as 1984 is to Brave New World.
Sorta, don't read too much into that comparison.
the point I am trying to make is that we are not comparing two pieces of work with entirely different historical grounding and philosophical ideas so the Tchaikovsky/Good Charlotte* argument is void. We are looking at two pieces of writing that address the same issues in different ways.
x
*good charlotte are wank in this ones opinion :roll:
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 10:44:01 PM
QuoteSo instead you're just going to tell us we're doin' it wrong.
Okay.
That's pretty much what critique comes down to, yeah. I'm just going to tell you that you're doing it wrong. (And how it could be made better.)
You're a fucking idiot, I'm thinking.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 09:54:16 PM
C'mon, kiddo, follow the parsing! What I said was, you quoted an entire post for a single line reply (your first post). Then, in your second post, you did the other thing.
Your, uh, wiki page. That you created just now. It says things on it I find amusing. Can I subscribe to your newsletter? ;) (I may have done so already!)
This isn't your first time posting here, is it? :lol:
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 08:43:42 AM
You've claimed to be 16 on these boards. Is this accurate?
If you're comfortable with it, I'm also curious what gender you consider yourself. (Your posts indicate androgyny; is this an accurate gender assessment?) I am not concerned with your sex.
I'm asking because your post content is not significant enough for me to build a profile, and my initial post is clearly insufficient to communicate with you. I'm not interested in talking over or around you. My next query, regardless of the answers to the previous two, will be how much of the 'background' Discordian material you're familiar with (The writings of RAW, Leary's works, Taoism, the contents of either the original or refurbished POEE.org, etc. Semiotics and experimental linguistics would be on the list, but your post content does touch on those subjects). If there's something else you think would be more relevant instead, please share that.
Where the FUCK do we get these bozos? :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Longtime reader, first time poster.
Well, I actually just started reading the forums last night. But it felt like a long time.
My username is not unique to these boards. If you google me, you'll see other things I've done/said/been flamed for over the years. Also some people for whom this is apparently their real last name, but that's an accident, I swear.
This isn't the only username I use, but it's the one I've used longest and the one I was introduced to Discordianism under a fair many years ago.
I was invited to post here, but I'm not going to reveal by whom. When the guilty party recognizes me, I'll let him- or her- do that him- or her- self.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 10:44:01 PM
QuoteSo instead you're just going to tell us we're doin' it wrong.
Okay.
That's pretty much what critique comes down to, yeah. I'm just going to tell you that you're doing it wrong. (And how it could be made better.)
If you want something done better, what do you think is more effective... telling people that they did it wrong, or doing it your own fucking self? Maybe outlining a project, announcing it, and trying to drum up some support?
Or do you prance in with "yer doin' it wrong, hurrrr" and expect people to take it as a serious critique? A critique of a past project that's no longer being worked on... what do you expect, people to rewrite it to your specifications?
Come on.
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 06, 2009, 10:49:37 PM
come on, kiddo.
it's, uhm. some Discordians, eh--who am I kidding I just wanted to call you kiddo.
:lulz:
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 11:46:21 PM
Longtime reader, first time poster.
Well, I actually just started reading the forums last night. But it felt like a long time.
My username is not unique to these boards. If you google me, you'll see other things I've done/said/been flamed for over the years. Also some people for whom this is apparently their real last name, but that's an accident, I swear.
This isn't the only username I use, but it's the one I've used longest and the one I was introduced to Discordianism under a fair many years ago.
I was invited to post here, but I'm not going to reveal by whom. When the guilty party recognizes me, I'll let him- or her- do that him- or her- self.
I seriously doubt that anyone cares.
:lulz:
http://discordia.wikia.com/wiki/Really_Real_Discordians
That's a lot of butthurt you're packing over a minor run-in, Arafelis... did I really get to you that badly? Gotta love that you keep going back and editing it. Tenacious.
Pathetic, but tenacious.
I think the lesson to be learned from this is to be able to back up your opinions with something more substantial than "I don't like it, so it's not very Discordian".
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 11:46:21 PM
Longtime reader, first time poster.
Well, I actually just started reading the forums last night. But it felt like a long time.
My username is not unique to these boards. If you google me, you'll see other things I've done/said/been flamed for over the years. Also some people for whom this is apparently their real last name, but that's an accident, I swear.
This isn't the only username I use, but it's the one I've used longest and the one I was introduced to Discordianism under a fair many years ago.
I was invited to post here, but I'm not going to reveal by whom. When the guilty party recognizes me, I'll let him- or her- do that him- or her- self.
Well, you're off to a hell of a start. <--- Sarcasm goes here.
Holy shit.
Arafella, as the cranky old bastard whoa actually WROTE that piece, I'm impressed-- you got it in one.
I actually DID use the fnords in exactly the way you described. Everyone else "sort" of gets it, because they realized it was dark, but you're the only one to pic up on my use of fnords. Well done.
Now, would you please stop trolling the boards? I'd like to recruit you towards higher purposes.
Quote from: LMNO on June 07, 2009, 04:06:47 AM
Holy shit.
Arafella, as the cranky old bastard whoa actually WROTE that piece, I'm impressed-- you got it in one.
I actually DID use the fnords in exactly the way you described. Everyone else "sort" of gets it, because they realized it was dark, but you're the only one to pic up on my use of fnords. Well done.
Now, would you please stop trolling the boards? I'd like to recruit you towards higher purposes.
The Rain God predicts disappointment in Alphapance's near future.
Not a fucking chance. This guy is the one I've been looking for.
Don't get in my way, Rog. Thins guy really understands.
We've got one more barrier before our deep and productive friendship can get consummated, LMNO.
But hey, I'm a sucker for higher purposes. So send me your sucker-punch, and we'll see what we get.
I know sincerity doesn't show well on forums, so let me reassure you that, after trying to show these people what's going down, you're the only one who really gets it.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 11:46:21 PMI was invited to post here, but I'm not going to reveal by whom. When the guilty party recognizes me, I'll let him- or her- do that him- or her- self.
It was Ratatosk, via the Convert_Me Livejournal, with the candlestick.
Cain,
thinks pretty much everyone who has read Principia Discussion in the past two days has figured that out.
Quote from: Nasturtiums on June 07, 2009, 02:01:48 AM
I think the lesson to be learned from this is to be able to back up your opinions with something more substantial than "I don't like it, so it's not very Discordian".
Which was indeed the point of the thread. I even restated it on the second page, just for those who missed the point first time around.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 06:38:29 AM
It's bad juju, man. We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively? This is our left-foot path.
And this is a bad thing....why? I mean, apart from the fact most people who call themselves left hand pathers are usually pantywaist Satanists and wannabe Sociopaths and Ayn Rand readers and generally take the whole "I am a God" thing way too seriously, and so set themselves up for hilarious and massive falls?
It was one work, three years ago*, by several different people, written in the heat of the moment and thrown together haphazardly. You may be expecting too much in terms of consistency.
*(this being important because I'm a much better writer now then I was then. From what I can remember, at least, which admittedly isn't much).
Quote from: LMNO on June 07, 2009, 04:06:47 AMEveryone else "sort" of gets it, because they realized it was dark, but you're the only one to pic up on my use of fnords.
I'd like to recruit you towards higher purposes.
:lmnuendo:
Quote from: Arafelis on June 07, 2009, 05:45:11 AM
We've got one more barrier before our deep and productive friendship can get consummated, LMNO.
But hey, I'm a sucker for higher purposes.
:lmnuendo:
Quote from: Cain on June 07, 2009, 12:52:25 PM
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 11:46:21 PMI was invited to post here, but I'm not going to reveal by whom. When the guilty party recognizes me, I'll let him- or her- do that him- or her- self.
It was Ratatosk, via the Convert_Me Livejournal, with the candlestick.
Cain,
thinks pretty much everyone who has read Principia Discussion in the past two days has figured that out.
moi?
:lulz:
Quote from: CainIt was Ratatosk, via the Convert_Me Livejournal, with the candlestick.
Since it's going to take all of three seconds for anyone to verify that
once it's been pointed out, yeah. But the whole point was to let Tosk decide for himself how he felt about it. So, pffffbbbttt.
Quote from: Cain on June 07, 2009, 01:03:38 PM
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 06:38:29 AM
It's bad juju, man. We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively? This is our left-foot path.
And this is a bad thing....why? I mean, apart from the fact most people who call themselves left hand pathers are usually pantywaist Satanists and wannabe Sociopaths and Ayn Rand readers and generally take the whole "I am a God" thing way too seriously, and so set themselves up for hilarious and massive falls?
[/quote]
I went on to say it
wasn't necessarily a bad thing, or at least a wrong thing, if it was (as you eloquently summarized) handled better than many attempts at the same. It's never going to be a good (as in, unicorns and lollipops) thing, but that's all that "bad juju" means.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 07, 2009, 07:55:39 PM
Quote from: CainIt was Ratatosk, via the Convert_Me Livejournal, with the candlestick.
Since it's going to take all of three seconds for anyone to verify that once it's been pointed out, yeah. But the whole point was to let Tosk decide for himself how he felt about it. So, pffffbbbttt.
[/quote]
How I felt about it? Heh, well I've enjoyed it, but I am a little confused. Your post on Convert Me, seemed to bemoan the state of the 'pineal' attitude, the "not exploring further" sort of Discordian.
Quote(I think that one of the major weaknesses of Discordianism right now is that so few of its novices dig any deeper than the Principia and then weld it, with the barest of thought, to whatever form of Westernized Eastern religion they're most interested in and a slapdash of dada, when in fact the well is much deeper. But that's a discourse for another time.)
Your post showed a dissatisfaction with the Discordian of Pure POEE Nonsense. A lack of interest in going beyond where Discordianism was when Malaclypse the Younger was inspired and Lord Omar was bearing witness to the Darling of Nyx's eye. So here we have a whole bunch of Discordians romping all over the fucking place... not only beyond the basics of the PD, but to the point of finally being Discordian enough to wipe their ass on what is written.
Now, personally, I have issues with some aspects of the BiP. Some of the original authors have different views now, than they did then. If it were written today, it would probably be a different book, somewhat. Dynamic, evolving ideas are, in my opinion, what makes Discordians so much fun. So, what do you think? Is Discordianism stagnating? Are Discordians really only skimming the surface?
I mean, sure be disappointed with the Discordian that thinks the Law of Fives is a sacred occult secret... be disappointed with the Discordian that bares the game on the table... but at some point, then, the only Discordian that won't disappoint you, is you.
The hermit lives on the hill shinning his lantern of knowledge for all to see as a beacon. Alone, by himself and someday the lantern will run out cause its only got a small supply. Then he'll be an old man with no friends, alone in the dark, on a hill. He'll probably fall and break his hip.... with no Life Alert to help him when he can't get up on his own.
QuoteAlone, by himself and someday the lantern will run out cause its only got a small supply.
Don't neglect what I said to LMNO there. It's why I'm here.
QuoteSo, what do you think? Is Discordianism stagnating? Are Discordians really only skimming the surface?
Ask me again tomorrow.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 07, 2009, 07:55:39 PM
Quote from: CainIt was Ratatosk, via the Convert_Me Livejournal, with the candlestick.
Since it's going to take all of three seconds for anyone to verify that once it's been pointed out, yeah. But the whole point was to let Tosk decide for himself how he felt about it. So, pffffbbbttt.
I feel like I must be missing something, here. Is there any reason for him to even care? Why? Is it supposed to be some kind of big deal?
QuoteI feel like I must be missing something, here. Is there any reason for him to even care? Why? Is it supposed to be some kind of big deal?
I don't know if he would care or not, so I didn't presume to make the choice for him.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 07, 2009, 07:55:39 PM
Quote from: CainIt was Ratatosk, via the Convert_Me Livejournal, with the candlestick.
Since it's going to take all of three seconds for anyone to verify that once it's been pointed out, yeah. But the whole point was to let Tosk decide for himself how he felt about it. So, pffffbbbttt.
Quote from: Cain on June 07, 2009, 01:03:38 PM
Quote from: Arafelis on June 06, 2009, 06:38:29 AM
It's bad juju, man. We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively? This is our left-foot path.
And this is a bad thing....why? I mean, apart from the fact most people who call themselves left hand pathers are usually pantywaist Satanists and wannabe Sociopaths and Ayn Rand readers and generally take the whole "I am a God" thing way too seriously, and so set themselves up for hilarious and massive falls?
I went on to say it wasn't necessarily a bad thing, or at least a wrong thing, if it was (as you eloquently summarized) handled better than many attempts at the same. It's never going to be a good (as in, unicorns and lollipops) thing, but that's all that "bad juju" means.
if it isn't bad or wrong why use the word bad?
Quote
bad juju
1. an action that is likely to be harmful in a "karmic" way, that is, a harmful action that may bring about the same action on oneself.
(we might hope our own prison bars are offensively abused karmicly by fnords as a result of our own using them that way)
and why should we care if its not unicorns and lollipops kind of use of fnords? this isn't wicca shocking offending and creating chaos with peoples views is what i thought we strive for?
Quote from: fomenter on June 07, 2009, 08:39:38 PM
if it isn't bad or wrong why use the word bad?
Quote
bad juju
1. an action that is likely to be harmful in a "karmic" way, that is, a harmful action that may bring about the same action on oneself.
(we might hope our own prison bars are offensively abused karmicly by fnords as a result of our own using them that way)
Am I fulfillment of that wish?
Quote from: Arafelis on June 07, 2009, 08:35:57 PM
QuoteI feel like I must be missing something, here. Is there any reason for him to even care? Why? Is it supposed to be some kind of big deal?
I don't know if he would care or not, so I didn't presume to make the choice for him.
??? But everyone already knew that he posted some links over there to try to get people from there over here, and that someone from there had, indeed, ventured over. It's posted in that thread.
Pfft. Black swans, St. Jaded-ass.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 07, 2009, 09:47:07 PM
Pfft. Black swans, St. Jaded-ass.
If I were expecting it, then it's not a black swan, now is it?
Also, not to pick nits, but it's not my ass that's jaded, but the asses of my vanquished foes and forlorn lovers.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 07, 2009, 08:25:57 PMbut at some point, then, the only Discordian that won't disappoint you, is you.
What, him??
Are you sure?
QuoteThe hermit lives on the hill shinning his lantern of knowledge for all to see as a beacon. Alone, by himself and someday the lantern will run out cause its only got a small supply. Then he'll be an old man with no friends, alone in the dark, on a hill. He'll probably fall and break his hip.... with no Life Alert to help him when he can't get up on his own.
Dude that's like the saddest story EVER. You know this poor guy? Why aren't you helping him?
Here, I set up a PayPal fund (http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/05136/5748f2ec.jpg), if everybody donates a few bucks, we might be able to buy him a flashlight or a prosthetic hip or something.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 07, 2009, 09:20:09 PM
But it might've been the nice guy.
Nuh-uh. Not Ratatosk. He likes watching old demented people stumbling about in the dark while he just stands by, doing nothing, until one of them breaks a hip. Do you really think Rat would have invited a nice guy to this forum?
Fuck off Ratatosk, the Law of Fives is a sacred occult secret. :lulz:
Quote from: Nigel on June 07, 2009, 09:50:39 PM
Also, not to pick nits, but it's not my ass that's jaded, but the asses of my vanquished foes and forlorn lovers.
Briefly, Burns ponders what that might actually be like to have his ass jaded this way.... :aaa:
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 07, 2009, 10:05:33 PM
Dude that's like the saddest story EVER. You know this poor guy? Why aren't you helping him?
Here, I set up a PayPal fund (http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/05136/5748f2ec.jpg), if everybody donates a few bucks, we might be able to buy him a flashlight or a prosthetic hip or something.
I KNEW it.
Quote from: B_R|S on June 07, 2009, 10:50:58 PM
Quote from: Nigel on June 07, 2009, 09:50:39 PM
Also, not to pick nits, but it's not my ass that's jaded, but the asses of my vanquished foes and forlorn lovers.
Briefly, Burns ponders what that might actually be like to have his ass jaded this way.... :aaa:
:mrgreen::hi5::fap:
yanno, it's not a discordian work to me, i realize it is to many of you, and that's fine. part of being discordian is being able to decide for yourself what is discordian. i never really meant any SRS VALUE JUDGEMENTS. to me it's not great and not discordian. if it's discordian to you, great. if it helps you, great. i'll keep my own counsel. arguing at great length over what is discordian is... well, it does help to have a little common ground to work with i guess. i just now realized this irc log from a week or so was posted, and figured if you guys spent all this time discussing my ideas i oughtta weigh in. i was apparently wrong about surrealism being a word before the movement, sorry about, but when i use the word surrealism i mean more like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surreal_humour anyway, to all the haters and people who say i'm a fucking moron and all that, well i love you too sweet-tits.
Why isn't it Discordian?
why is it?
seriously, i think i made my case for that at the begining of the thread, in that irc log that was posted. if you disagree, that's fine, it can be discordian to you. i'll keep in mind that it's discordian to a large percentage of people who consider themselves discordians. i'm not saying i'm a "really real discordian", or that you're "doing it wrong", just that i think differently. i feel that the core principle of discordianism is enlightment through absurdity, and the BIP doesn't really convey that to me. you did read the first post right?
Quote from: nobody on June 08, 2009, 08:35:53 PM
why is it?
seriously, i think i made my case for that at the begining of the thread, in that irc log that was posted. if you disagree, that's fine, it can be discordian to you. i'll keep in mind that it's discordian to a large percentage of people who consider themselves discordians. i'm not saying i'm a "really real discordian", or that you're "doing it wrong", just that i think differently. i feel that the core principle of discordianism is enlightment through absurdity, and the BIP doesn't really convey that to me. you did read the first post right?
No. I'm lazy and I'd rather you just tell me now, in the moment. So that's it? The BIP isn't absurd enough for you and that's why it isn't Discordian? How do you come to the assessment that Discordia and Absurdity has to have a firm link?
Actually, the BIP is pretty absurd, but you seem to be getting caught up on the fact you have to do a little work on your own to get there.
BIP =/= Fish Slapping Dance
No, I suppose the BIP doesn't convey enlightenment through absurdity. It's pretty straightforward and its jokes are not goofball-zany.
It does, however, convey its ideas through what might be seen as a type of Absurdism, because it denies that our ideas about the meaning of life, the universe, and everything are anything but ideas. Such beliefs are therefore absurd, because they have no relationship to objective reality except through the mind of the believer.
This is something that the PD and the BIP have in common, even if they approach it from wildly different angles. Starbuck's Pebbles and the Reality Grids are metaphors for ideas that are similar to ideas from Absurdism. In this sense, I argue that the BIP is indeed a Discordian work. Stylistic and metaphorical differences are irrelevant.
But I suppose something needs to be clarified: what do you mean by "enlightenment"? When you refer to enlightenment through absurdity, do you mean that the style of goofy, zany humor is critical to this enlightenment?
Quote from: LMNO on June 08, 2009, 08:47:25 PM
Actually, the BIP is pretty absurd, but you seem to be getting caught up on the fact you have to do a little work on your own to get there.
BIP =/= Fish Slapping Dance
Well, you know what?
Butts on your face.
:asshat:
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on June 08, 2009, 08:54:57 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 08, 2009, 08:47:25 PM
Actually, the BIP is pretty absurd, but you seem to be getting caught up on the fact you have to do a little work on your own to get there.
BIP =/= Fish Slapping Dance
Well, you know what?
Butts on your face.
I redact my previous statement in favor of this much better one.
Absurdism as philosophy is not necessarily HUMOR
Nonsense as salvation doesn't necessarily require Pythonesque Routines.
I think that absurdism is an integral part of Discordianism. Not absurdism humor, necessarily (though I think this is very important for a number of reasons), but rather it appears as a branch of Absurdist Philosophy. Perhaps a giant Absurdist Memetic Entity if you will...
Absurdism, in its most simple form says that there is no meaning to life, except that meaning which you give to life.
The Law of Fives is a practical example in giving meaning to the meaningless. Starbuck's Pebbles are another. The Sermon on Ethics and Love supply an Absrudist punchline. Reality Grids and Reality Tunnels are models of HOW the brains/minds of people create 'meaning' over the meaningless.
In this way, I think that the BiP fits as Absurdist and Discordian. I don't think its the best Discordian work ever... but it displays ACTION on the part of some Discordians. So many Discordian groups seem intent on remembering the holydays and replaying the old memes... But chaos is active and dynamic and pushes forward.
So the PD may have been one stage in the evolutuion of Discordian Philosophy. the BiP may be another and hopefully there will be even more in the future... maybe 20 years from now, the BiP will look like some deformed fish that was not of any value except to act as a stepping stone to a better specimen.
I have plenty of 'critiques' of the BiP in style, word choice, vibe... but that doesn't mean its not Discordian. Eris can be a bitch.
This entire discussion is retarded. It's like saying pizza is Italian food, but arguing that pasta primavera isn't because it isn't based on bread.
Quote from: vexati0n on June 08, 2009, 10:14:09 PM
This entire discussion is retarded. It's like saying pizza is Italian food, but arguing that pasta primavera isn't because it isn't based on bread.
this
Or, rather, like why rap sucks but nu-metal is AWSUM!!11!122!
PD.com: Having the retarded discussions, so you don't have to.
perhaps we should create a discordian taxonomy for the various types of works, carefully classifying and labeling the different writings in a hierarchical structured system using Latin based names??
i prefer the official discordian document numbering system, specifically the range between "this blows" and "let's keep it,"
"is verbera" and "permissum nos servo is"
Discussing whether something is Discordian isn't very Discordian.
Quote from: Nigel on June 08, 2009, 10:51:43 PM
Discussing whether something is Discordian isn't very Discordian.
I'd just like to say that this statement is
very Discordian.
Quote from: Nigel on June 08, 2009, 10:51:43 PM
Discussing whether something is Discordian isn't very Discordian.
Oh
yeah?
Well, saying something "isn't very Discordian"
isn't very Discordian, spag!
Except when it is.
I don't think that any of you guys are discordians. you're not anal enough.
Anal?
Quote from: Cramulus on June 08, 2009, 11:04:02 PM
I don't think that any of you guys are discordians. you're not doing anal enough.
Quote from: TSosBR! on June 08, 2009, 11:11:41 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 08, 2009, 11:04:02 PM
I don't think that any of you guys are discordians. you're not doing anal enough.
speak for yourself.
:lulz:
the "The BIP is not a Discordian work" thread is not a discordist thread: discuss
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on June 08, 2009, 11:59:37 PM
the "The BIP is not a Discordian work" thread is not a discordist thread: discuss
Well, its CERTAINLY a Discordist thread. Whether its a Discordia(n) thread is the question.
:lulz:
I think that this thread might be Discordian for other people, but it's not Discordian for me.
Next poster ITT is a Discordian.
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 09, 2009, 01:42:44 AM
Next poster ITT is a Discordian.
I am not a Discordian.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 09, 2009, 02:00:00 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 09, 2009, 01:42:44 AM
Next poster ITT is a Discordian.
I am not a Discordian.
That's just what a Discordian would say if they weren't a Discordian.
Quote from: Cainad on June 09, 2009, 02:10:59 AM
That's just what a Discordian would say if they weren't a Discordian.
Well that's a very Discordian observation to make. In fact, it may be
too Discordian, and therefore un-Discordian.
:sotw:
So, before the derail, we were talking about the common themes of a Discordian text, some of which were absurdity (not necessarily humourous) and, something cram said that I especially liked, estrangement. There also seems to be, as LMNO and RWHN pointed out, a primary emotional draw on the first reading, somewhat shallow, but a deeper more principled reading (going back to the PD's "if you think this all was just a ha-ha, go back and read it again") the second time through. Vex also brought up the term "snaplines" (=horrormirth?), which I thought was a nice contribution. The argument against the BIP being a discordian work seems to be that it may assume too much on the part of the audience, of "whats "really bugging you"" (rat, correct me if I'm wrong about what you were saying there)>
Then there was some talk of fnords which really hasn't been convincing yet (and is still incomplete in my estimation), so I'm going to ignore it for now.
Thoughts? Comments? Things I've missed?
You forgot the part about how the BIP is essentially an argument in favor of Intelligent design.
Was "nobody" someone who now posts on here?
Quote from: Kai on June 09, 2009, 02:51:48 AM
The argument against the BIP being a discordian work seems to be that it may assume too much on the part of the audience, of "whats "really bugging you"" (rat, correct me if I'm wrong about what you were saying there)>
Well, for me it does seem to presume quite a bit more than most other Discordian things I've read. One of the things I love about Discordianism is the ability to conclude with "... but I may be full of shit." The BiP does a good job of conveying that the authors don't claim to have escaped and have True Freedom... However, it fails to admit to the reader that there may not be a Black Iron Prison, there may not be walls and bars... it could be that our minds work in some terribly different way, which we don't yet understand and which the BiP may be a terrible metaphor for. The PD uses absurd humor, I think, to lighten the overall work and display that it should all be taken with a grain of salt. The BiP has some humor, but the humor is not self-deprecating at all, rather its like the Queen of England piece which is trying to further the argument, but with the funnay. The PD encourages the reader to 'wipe thine ass on what is written". Yet, the BiP not only doesn't encourage such a thing... but the authors and supporters seem to get very defensive any time someone does wipe their ass with what is written.
I keep going through the BiP, rethinking my old assumptions about the piece. In the end, barring my personal tastes... its the
certainty with which the BiP presents itself which I find problematic. It doesn't have to have self-deprecating humor to be Discordian, but
certainty seems problematic for Discordian writing, in my opinion.
Not that it needs to be e-Primed, I'm not saying we need a lack of certainty in every essay. But, the lack of a "However, we may be full of shit...please go think for yourself" for me, is what leaves the work feeling ... almost dogmatic on the topic:
There IS a Black Iron Prison
You ARE Trapped.
It IS made by your decisions, experiences etc.
You CANNOT escape, but you can remodel.
Now of course, we've all been through the 'work in progress/was meant to have other bits/etc' and I support that sort of dynamic thinking, the constant advance of ideas, rather than a static mudhole of "I wrote it therefore it must be 100% perfect". On the one hand, it is a fantastic project... a group of Discordians dynamically working on projects, not simply repeating the PD... thats great. Still, every time someone pops in to critique the BiP, I find myself feeling a bit icky. So many conversations about it, so many different points where both sides say "Well, thats a valid point..." but the next time someone says "This doesn't feel very Discordian"... ti seems like the 'tribe' immediately becomes defensive.
"WELL YOU GO WRITE ONE... OH YOU HAVEN"T WRITTEN ONE? WELL THEN YOU MUST BE A REALLY REAL DISCORDIAN COME TO TEACH US ALL!!!"
So maybe these two things are unrelated... perhaps the tribal defense of the work has nothing to do with its somewhat dogmatc nature. Maybe I'm just connecting pebbles here. However, to me, thats the core problem I have with the BiP currently.
I like it. I like the metaphor (as far as I take it), I like that Discordians are doing something. I think it is a Discordian work, because well, the question is stupid. I think that it doesn't appeal to a number of Discordians, though, because it seems self sure, with an IS/IS NOT vibe that many Discordians (in my experience) have a poor reaction to.
That being said, I was so inspired by the BiP that its the foundation of a Play I'm currently writing (Second Draft in the works!).
I hope that makes sense without pissing off anyone :)
Um no.
The reason I get defensive is because the argument put up against it is crap. You actually have an argument Tosk, and you're not getting treated like Nobody. Did you ever think those two things might be related.
Short summation FOR THE THIRD TIME: Nobody's argument is "I don't like it due to subjective personal preferences, therefore it is not Discordian."
That's it. Nothing more. Its like those people on certain political websites who will insist, against all political science evidence that Nazism is a "far left ideology". Why? Because they define themselves as right wing, but do not like Nazism, therefore it could not possibly have anything to do with them, in any slight way whatsoever. No, its The Other who is at fault.
Nobody defines not only his own Discordianism in very tight terms, but everyone elses as well. If anything, Nobody is the one here telling people they are doing it wrong.
This writer didn't ask to see his work, or indeed anything else you mentioned in your little screed there.
So stop misrepresenting me and my point of view, right now.
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 04:00:11 PM
Um no.
The reason I get defensive is because the argument put up against it is crap. You actually have an argument Tosk, and you're not getting treated like Nobody. Did you ever think those two things might be related.
Short summation FOR THE THIRD TIME: Nobody's argument is "I don't like it due to subjective personal preferences, therefore it is not Discordian."
That's it. Nothing more. Its like those people on certain political websites who will insist, against all political science evidence that Nazism is a "far left ideology". Why? Because they define themselves as right wing, but do not like Nazism, therefore it could not possibly have anything to do with them, in any slight way whatsoever. No, its The Other who is at fault.
Nobody defines not only his own Discordianism in very tight terms, but everyone elses as well. If anything, Nobody is the one here telling people they are doing it wrong.
This writer didn't ask to see his work, or indeed anything else you mentioned in your little screed there.
So stop misrepresenting me and my point of view, right now.
This is what I get for editing out the E Prime I originally wrote my comment with. For fucks sake.
Yes Cain, obviously I was speaking about every single author inclusively... you all behave exactly the same way due to the BiP Author Hive Mind you all share... thats obviously what I meant.
Triple Zero, its your fault... in some sense :lulz:
EDIT: Also, I think one key difference between my critique and some others... is that I have been around long enough to know how to word things for this audience. When I read nobody's post, it struck me that he may simply not have been using the best description for what he 'felt'. I had the same problem a couple years ago after my first reading of the BiP... its taken awhile to better formulate and qualify my comments, to get to the root of what I perceived.
I think its likely that what I said above, probably covers a lot of the critiques we hear... I just finally found words that appear to communicate the idea with less noise...
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 09, 2009, 04:05:00 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 04:00:11 PM
Um no.
The reason I get defensive is because the argument put up against it is crap. You actually have an argument Tosk, and you're not getting treated like Nobody. Did you ever think those two things might be related.
Short summation FOR THE THIRD TIME: Nobody's argument is "I don't like it due to subjective personal preferences, therefore it is not Discordian."
That's it. Nothing more. Its like those people on certain political websites who will insist, against all political science evidence that Nazism is a "far left ideology". Why? Because they define themselves as right wing, but do not like Nazism, therefore it could not possibly have anything to do with them, in any slight way whatsoever. No, its The Other who is at fault.
Nobody defines not only his own Discordianism in very tight terms, but everyone elses as well. If anything, Nobody is the one here telling people they are doing it wrong.
This writer didn't ask to see his work, or indeed anything else you mentioned in your little screed there.
So stop misrepresenting me and my point of view, right now.
This is what I get for editing out the E Prime I originally wrote my comment with. For fucks sake.
Yes Cain, obviously I was speaking about every single author inclusively... you all behave exactly the same way due to the BiP Author Hive Mind you all share... thats obviously what I meant.
Then maybe you should say exactly what you mean, instead of conforming to a certain style to try and make your point.
Or you can continue to mock me for your error, which you'll no doubt prefer to do.
- A Text is Discordian if enough people disagree about its Discordianity.
- A Text is Discordian if for ever and always into the future no Discordian will ever disagree with it.
- A Text is Discordian if enough Discordians make fun of other Discordians over their interpretation of the Text.
And Rat don't stop now, sarcasm is actually just another way of not really saying what you believe (and there are moments when people simply won't respond to it well..)
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 04:00:11 PM
Its like those people on certain political websites who will insist, against all political science evidence that Nazism is a "far left ideology". Why? Because they define themselves as right wing, but do not like Nazism, therefore it could not possibly have anything to do with them, in any slight way whatsoever. No, its The Other who is at fault.
I like this comparison.
"Its like those people on certain Discordian websites who will insist that the BIP is not a Discordian work. Why? Because they define themselves as Discordian, but do not like the BIP, therefore it could not possibly have anything to do with them, in any slight way whatsoever."
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 04:26:02 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 09, 2009, 04:05:00 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 04:00:11 PM
Um no.
The reason I get defensive is because the argument put up against it is crap. You actually have an argument Tosk, and you're not getting treated like Nobody. Did you ever think those two things might be related.
Short summation FOR THE THIRD TIME: Nobody's argument is "I don't like it due to subjective personal preferences, therefore it is not Discordian."
That's it. Nothing more. Its like those people on certain political websites who will insist, against all political science evidence that Nazism is a "far left ideology". Why? Because they define themselves as right wing, but do not like Nazism, therefore it could not possibly have anything to do with them, in any slight way whatsoever. No, its The Other who is at fault.
Nobody defines not only his own Discordianism in very tight terms, but everyone elses as well. If anything, Nobody is the one here telling people they are doing it wrong.
This writer didn't ask to see his work, or indeed anything else you mentioned in your little screed there.
So stop misrepresenting me and my point of view, right now.
This is what I get for editing out the E Prime I originally wrote my comment with. For fucks sake.
Yes Cain, obviously I was speaking about every single author inclusively... you all behave exactly the same way due to the BiP Author Hive Mind you all share... thats obviously what I meant.
Then maybe you should say exactly what you mean, instead of conforming to a certain style to try and make your point.
Or you can continue to mock me for your error, which you'll no doubt prefer to do.
Well, then Cain, I apologize. I should have said "SOME" of the authors, appears to take offense, or get defensive, in my opinion.
Of course, given my general (and oft mocked) opinion on saying 'all' about anything... I wouldn't think it too much of a stretch for you to have assumed I wasn't speaking about EVERY AUTHOR IN EVERY INSTANCE. Sarcasm? Sure, why not. I try to make a comment that I thought was useful and germane, and rather than discussing the useful bits and you pick up on a point you can defensively argue. Why the hell shouldn't I be sarcastic? Because I see the possibility of bars in my prison due to sombunall (after many here have pointed out the potential), I give a go at dropping the wishy washy e-primyness from my comment and the first response is because I apparently missed placing a "some" in the line about the authors.
Trip, I am saying what I think, not what I believe. The sarcasm was in regard to Cains inability (or disinterest) in assuming I was a reasonable human being... or some faxcimile thereof. My comments on the BiP stand as they are, sarcasm aside.
Or was my post still to wishy washy?
I have a feeling Rat consciously decides to turn off his E-Prime mode in cases where there's sure to be very heated opinions of the subject, just so he can turn around and say, "that's why we need SOMBUNALL."
Then again, that's a purely subjective thought, and may be completely untrue.
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 09, 2009, 04:34:35 PM
- A Text is Discordian if enough people disagree about its Discordianity.
- A Text is Discordian if for ever and always into the future no Discordian will ever disagree with it.
- A Text is Discordian if enough Discordians make fun of other Discordians over their interpretation of the Text.
- A Text is Discordian if P3nT4gR4m, Malachite, Syn, Payne or any other ranking member of the Scottish Empire says it is
TIA
(http://mostlymedia.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/catherding5.jpg)
srsly.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 09, 2009, 04:48:45 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 09, 2009, 04:34:35 PM
- A Text is Discordian if enough people disagree about its Discordianity.
- A Text is Discordian if for ever and always into the future no Discordian will ever disagree with it.
- A Text is Discordian if enough Discordians make fun of other Discordians over their interpretation of the Text.
- A Text is Discordian if P3nT4gR4m, Malachite, Syn, Payne or any other ranking member of the Scottish Empire says it is
TIA
For fuck's sake.
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2009, 04:47:49 PM
I have a feeling Rat consciously decides to turn off his E-Prime mode in cases where there's sure to be very heated opinions of the subject, just so he can turn around and say, "that's why we need SOMBUNALL."
Then again, that's a purely subjective thought, and may be completely untrue.
I hope not. I hope you can look at the past week or so of posts (since my Jailbreak post) and see a conspicuous lack of e-prime and subjective qualifiers. I may have missed one or two, but I've been consciously trying to drop that for a bit and see how things go.
Or maybe I subconsciously try to trick people into an e-primless trap. I'll have to watch and see if thats the case.
That's just what somebunall would say ...
Does the label matter THAT much? To argue for OR against it?
I think the whole argument might be beside the point or academic or something, but maybe that's me being a bitch, I dunno.
The BIP is fabulous, and that's that. It does what it needs to do, as does the PD. eot
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2009, 05:02:56 PM
Does the label matter THAT much? To argue for OR against it?
I think the whole argument might be beside the point or academic or something, but maybe that's me being a bitch, I dunno.
The BIP is fabulous, and that's that. It does what it needs to do, as does the PD. eot
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 09, 2009, 05:00:48 PM
That's just what somebunall would say ...
I love all the support I get here. Its a great place to try to 'change your cell'.
Oh wait, that was sarcasm, DAMN IT!
Err, thanks guys for the feedback. I'll try to do better next time I post.
All I was saying, in a roundabout way, is that there are times that E-Prime tends to be more useful than others.
Commenting on inflammatory topics where it might appear that you could be speaking for other people when you don't intend to appears to be one of them.
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2009, 05:19:47 PM
All I was saying, in a roundabout way, is that there are times that E-Prime tends to be more useful than others.
Commenting on inflammatory topics where it might appear that you could be speaking for other people when you don't intend to appears to be one of them.
I agree with that assessment. In retrospect, apparently I should have used e-Prime, rather than editing it out to conform to the idea that its a bar in my BiP to get rid of. In fact, had you stated that, rather than leaving me with the idea that you thought I consciously try to trap people, I would have agreed with you straight off.
Yeah, but then I sound boring.
So we all agree. The BIP is a Discordian work and nobody is an asshat. What's next on the agenda?
Anal?
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on June 09, 2009, 05:36:12 PM
So we all agree. The BIP is a Discordian work and nobody is an asshat. What's next on the agenda?
Nobody is probably an asshat... though, he may also just be inarticulate in his critique.
Otherwise, anal sounds fun!
did we just have a canonization council?
NT: Is anal Discordian?
Yes. Because much chaos can result.
Especially if you're both eating beets.
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2009, 05:45:14 PM
Yes. Because much chaos can result.
Especially if you're both eating beets.
I wonder if Lois Lane likes it.
Well, given who the founders of Discordianism were... my guess is any position with any number of individuals, or chairs in any orifice is Discordian.
Do the orifice chairs have built-in lumbar support? That is very important you know.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 09, 2009, 05:43:56 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on June 09, 2009, 05:36:12 PM
So we all agree. The BIP is a Discordian work and nobody is an asshat. What's next on the agenda?
Nobody is probably an asshat... though, he may also just be inarticulate in his critique.
Otherwise, anal sounds fun!
Oh I'm pretty sure somebody is an asshat, nobody knows the true scope.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on June 09, 2009, 05:49:44 PM
Do the orifice chairs have built-in lumbar support? That is very important you know.
"I'm a Lumbar-jack and I'm OK"
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on June 09, 2009, 05:36:12 PM
So we all agree. The BIP is a Discordian work and nobody is an asshat.
Not so quick kiddo! The Scottish Empire has not reached a satisfactory conclusion on this issue.
Moar alcohol required.
*edit* Also the Scottish Empire demands it's own emote on this websiet.
MODS!!! :argh!:
But I'm an Honorary Scott, remember? Don't I get some say?
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on June 09, 2009, 06:22:05 PM
But I'm an Honorary Scott, remember? Don't I get some say?
YUO JUST SPELLED 'SCOT' WITH TWO T'S
STATUS RESCINDED AND BOUNTY PLACED ON YER HEID :argh!:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 09, 2009, 07:02:22 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on June 09, 2009, 06:22:05 PM
But I'm an Honorary Scott, remember? Don't I get some say?
YUO JUST SPELLED 'SCOT' WITH TWO T'S
STATUS RESCINDED AND BOUNTY PLACED ON YER HEID :argh!:
That's how it looks on my birth certificate.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 09, 2009, 06:18:31 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on June 09, 2009, 05:36:12 PM
So we all agree. The BIP is a Discordian work and nobody is an asshat.
Not so quick kiddo! The Scottish Empire has not reached a satisfactory conclusion on this issue.
Moar alcohol required.
*edit* Also the Scottish Empire demands it's own emote on this websiet.
MODS!!! :argh!:
(http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/050720/112446__trainspotting_l.jpg)
This?
What I wonder is what people are hoping to accomplish with criticism of the BIP?
I haven't read it. I read part of it, then stopped. Sorry guys!
But, so the fuck what?
Taking to the authors a critique of a work that's not going to be revised seems kind of pointless to me. Sort of like finding someone's Masters thesis three years after they presented it, and giving them a fine-comb critique of it. What benefit is there, and to whom? What is the relevance? The student has graduated.
Take what you can use, discard the rest. Think for yourself. Write your own according to your reasoning.
:mittens:
heh, i specifically said in one of my posts i'm not trying to say "you're doing it wrong" yet cain accuses me of saying. being discordian is all about doing it however you want, and thinking whatever you want about whatever whenever. i'll go on forever thinking the BIP isn't a discordian work, but realizing some people feel differently about it. some people feel so differently about it they feel they need to spend hours arguing about it. are their efforts going to reshape my black iron prison? possibly, but certainly not in the way they intend.
Quote from: Nigel on June 09, 2009, 07:43:16 PM
What I wonder is what people are hoping to accomplish with criticism of the BIP?
:?
most of us involved with the production of the BIP
like hearing feedback. Even when we don't agree with it.
QuoteTaking to the authors a critique of a work that's not going to be revised seems kind of pointless to me.
who says it's not going to be revised??
I released
my version of the BIP pamphlet based on my reaction to the original
and the feedback we received here at the site. If we didn't want people to come give us feedback, why is this subforum partially titled "this is for people involved or interested in the BIP"?
Other people are free to release their own versions, as TssoBR is doing. That means it's not "done", and discussion about the BIP and its flaws shouldn't be verboten.
I mean srsly, there are
four threads in this subforum discussing the BIP right now. I just don't understand the "why are you trying to talk to us about this?" vibe. This is part of the creation process!
I'm intrigued by your wording, particularly your statements about certain things not being Discordian. Not that they don't work for your personal Discordia, but that to you they are "Not Discordian". Do you also view other people as "Not Discordian"?
In a way, I think we all have our own Discordia, and in fact in my Discordia I perceive pretty much everything as Discordian, so the idea of putting specific things outside of Discordia is interesting and confusing.
Your Discordia appears to be very, very different from mine. Do you see "Non-Discordian" things differently from "Discordian" things? Are there more or fewer "Non-Discordian" than "Discordian" things in your Discordia?
The BIP seems to have sowed some discord... are things that sow discord still "Non-Discordian" for you? If yes, how do you reconcile that apparent contradiction?
Quote from: Cramulus on June 09, 2009, 08:02:19 PM
Quote from: Nigel on June 09, 2009, 07:43:16 PM
What I wonder is what people are hoping to accomplish with criticism of the BIP?
:?
most of us involved with the production of the BIP like hearing feedback. Even when we don't agree with it.
QuoteTaking to the authors a critique of a work that's not going to be revised seems kind of pointless to me.
who says it's not going to be revised??
I released my version of the BIP pamphlet based on my reaction to the original and the feedback we received here at the site. If we didn't want people to come give us feedback, why is this subforum partially titled "this is for people involved or interested in the BIP"?
Other people are free to release their own versions, as TssoBR is doing. That means it's not "done", and discussion about the BIP and its flaws shouldn't be verboten.
I mean srsly, there are four threads in this subforum discussing the BIP right now. I just don't understand the "why are you trying to talk to us about this?" vibe. This is part of the creation process!
Well, then let me revise my statement... why don't they publish their own revision, then?
I am asking questions, not telling people to stop. Is it wrong to ask questions? I really don't get why it makes sense to write a lengthy in-depth critique of an old project with many authors, and I want to know what people's aims and goals are when they do it. I seriously want to know. You seem to be perturbed that I would ask. In fact, you say that you "Don't understand" it. :lulz: You're questioning my questioning.
It's been critiqued a bunch of times, and I don't see a whole bunch of revisions floating around.
Maybe it's time for another one. Who knows. However, the critiques seem to typically take the form of "Everything needs to be different" and in that case, it's not so much a revision as a whole new project.
I'm up for a whole new project - if someone has a theme they think can be mined deeply and in a number of interesting ways.
If this were a buffet I would take a little of General Cram's Chicken and a little of the Nigel Pow Chicken.
I agree with Cram that the feedback on the BIP can be useful. As it turns out, my sensibility on nobody's critique is that it is more along the lines of Laz's non-constructive critique. I think nobody has a very narrow view of what Discordianism is, but I suppose that is really his issue, not ours.
I also agree with Nigel in the respect that, while the BIP has been revised a couple of times, and I've shared this opinion many times I know, maybe it is just time to move on. I know, I'm a sentimental purist but I really think there was this original energy that went into the BIP and churned out what it churned out. I think perhaps it is time for a new bundle of energy to churn out something different. Perhaps it can be a new take on the territory the BIP was trying to cover, but I think maybe it just needs to be a totally new publication.
Historical perspectives are important, and I think it is important that at some point the BIP can stand alone as one of the many historical Discordian (fuck you nobody) publications along side the more notable and older ones.
So that's my drivel on the topic.
things that stir discord aren't necessarily discordian, because discordianism isn't just discord, it's a "religon" i don't really judge whether people are discordian or not, i take them at their word, and make value judgements as to whether they are "bad" or "good" at whatever filter they've asked people to view them through. there are much more non-discordian things then discordian things. things that sow discord are often non-discordian, do you think the korean war was discordian? it sure brought a lot of discord. i don't think satanic verses was discordian either, and it created lots of discord. it's absurd to think anything creating discord is explicity discordian, although i do get the point it might help things a long a little bit.
Quote from: nobody on June 09, 2009, 08:21:21 PM
things that stir discord aren't necessarily discordian, because discordianism isn't just discord, it's a "religon" i don't really judge whether people are discordian or not, i take them at their word, and make value judgements as to whether they are "bad" or "good" at whatever filter they've asked people to view them through. there are much more non-discordian things then discordian things. things that sow discord are often non-discordian, do you think the korean war was discordian? it sure brought a lot of discord. i don't think satanic verses was discordian either, and it created lots of discord. it's absurd to think anything creating discord is explicity discordian, although i do get the point it might help things a long a little bit.
Where in the BIP does it say it is trying to "stir discord"? Or that it is "just" trying to "stir discord"?
i didn't say that the BIP was, i was replying to a comment a few above mine about if i think things that stir discord are discordian. some of you people are awfully bad at paying attention to be so pedantic
For the most part, no one seems to be arguing about the mechanics of the BIP - after all, it's just a version of "reality grids".
The notable exception being Rat, which led to the GSP, and then his weird "rollercoaster/submarine" metaphor.
Most people seem to dislike the "tone" or "attitude" of the BIP, which makes me think that if we wrote it in a Douglas Adams/Terry Pratchett style, then no one would have a problem.
Which is fucking retarded.
STFU MY MOTHER WAS KILLED BY FUCKING RETARDS WHO DISLIKED SOMETHING MERELY BECAUSE IT PRESENTED IDEAS THEY MORE OR LESS AGREED WITH IN A LITERARY STYLE THEY DID NOT LIKE.
If you rewrote the BIP as well as a Douglas Adams work, I absolutely would not have a problem.
Similarly, if I finished the BIP and I wanted to kill myself the way I did after reading some of Phillip K. Dick's works for the first time, I would absolutely have no problem.
One of the points I made in my first post to this thread was that it's not either of those things. It's neither hot nor cold.
Oh, so you don't like it because it's poorly written?
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2009, 08:30:49 PMMost people seem to dislike the "tone" or "attitude" of the BIP, which makes me think that if we wrote it in a Douglas Adams/Terry Pratchett style, then no one would have a problem.
I bet if we'd insert "fnord" every 23rd word, a lot of them would simply eat it up.
Might not be a half-bad idea actually.
QuoteWhich is fucking retarded.
Yes but you gotta write for your audience right ;-)
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2009, 08:38:16 PM
Oh, so you don't like it because it's poorly written?
I don't know whether to laugh or cry right now.
Quote from: nobody on June 09, 2009, 08:26:59 PM
i didn't say that the BIP was, i was replying to a comment a few above mine about if i think things that stir discord are discordian. some of you people are awfully bad at paying attention to be so pedantic
There is this thing called the quote function.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 09, 2009, 08:39:54 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2009, 08:38:16 PM
Oh, so you don't like it because it's poorly written?
I don't know whether to laugh or cry right now.
Do both; we do.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 09, 2009, 08:34:02 PM
If you rewrote the BIP as well as a Douglas Adams work, I absolutely would not have a problem.
Similarly, if I finished the BIP and I wanted to kill myself the way I did after reading some of Phillip K. Dick's works for the first time, I would absolutely have no problem.
One of the points I made in my first post to this thread was that it's not either of those things. It's neither hot nor cold.
So in other words, you suck at follow through.
How come no one ever wants to discuss the ideas?
This reminds me of this guy in my classics class who complained that the Iliad was sexist.
Shooting the messengers is so much more fun apparently.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on June 09, 2009, 08:44:53 PM
So in other words, you suck at follow through.
I'm getting such a tl;dr vibe to what I write, here.
I don't suck at follow-through, you suck at reading. (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=21059.0)
A point I'll continue to defend even after the inevitable objection is raised that I never actually said "this sucks," merely that "it was trite," "it alienates the reader rather than drawing them in," and "is the literary equivalent of Good Charlotte."
QuoteHow come no one ever wants to discuss the ideas?
Which ideas are those, huh? The Plato's Cave allegory, or the part where Somebody Should Do Something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI4XLhY10VA) About It?
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2009, 08:45:33 PM
How come no one ever wants to discuss the ideas?
This reminds me of this guy in my classics class who complained that the Iliad was sexist.
Arson, murder and jaywalking.
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 08:51:50 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2009, 08:45:33 PM
How come no one ever wants to discuss the ideas?
This reminds me of this guy in my classics class who complained that the Iliad was sexist.
Arson, murder and jaywalking.
By which I mean, if you are going to complain about the socio-political content of the Iliad you might want to start with the aggressive war waged for profit by the Greeks. All the looting and taking slaves and women and stuff. That Achilles thought Patroclus was more worthy of fucking than a Greek woman is way down on the list of priorities.
(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk61/fnord_photo/roflbot-w8aw.jpg?t=1244577341)
Quote from: fomenter on June 09, 2009, 08:57:03 PM
(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk61/fnord_photo/roflbot-w8aw.jpg?t=1244577341)
:mittens:
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2009, 08:30:49 PM
For the most part, no one seems to be arguing about the mechanics of the BIP - after all, it's just a version of "reality grids".
Well, yes... indeed it is.
Quote
The notable exception being Rat, which led to the GSP, and then his weird "rollercoaster/submarine" metaphor.
I don't remember any rollercoasters... why do people say Rat's rollercoasters?
Though I like Rat's Rollercoaster... that may have to be some new piece!!!
Quote
Most people seem to dislike the "tone" or "attitude" of the BIP, which makes me think that if we wrote it in a Douglas Adams/Terry Pratchett style, then no one would have a problem.
I still contend that it needn't have been
humorously absurd, only that it should have taken itself less seriously. Absurd humor can go a long way to meet that goal, but its not the only way to display some humility of thought. I think
some few Discordians that have not liked the BiP are looking only for the LOLs, but I think a larger number of them are being repelled by the self-import vibe that the work gives off the first or second time through. That vibe lessens, at least for me, around the fifth time through. :lulz:
However, I agree with the idea of the BiP as a finished work and I think continual revisions of the base document weaken it. Implementing bits of it in new projects, referencing stuff from it in new projects etc can keep it alive and functioning, without losing the original. (Recall, it was only recently that the First Ed. PD saw the light of day again after decades of being lost). I don't say this because I think its flawless or that defending it as a Discordian Work is a good investment of time. Personally, I think that when some new-to-the-BiP Discordian hops in here and says "The BiP is FAIL for the following reasons" a response like "The BiP is X years old... what the fuck are you doing back there... Catch Up. *HERE IS LINK TO CURRENT PROJECTS*."
The BiP, in my opinion, has flaws. It screams at the reader at some points, it takes itself more seriously that the material warrants and I think it presents a flawed metaphor. HOWEVER, IT IS A GREAT PIECE OF WORK WHICH REPRESENTS SOME IDEAS OF SOME DISCORDIANS AT SOME POINT IN TIME.
And that last line is what's important. I think. The rest of it can be argued from Sea to Subjective Sea and we'll never get an agreeable answer :wink:
QuoteHowever, I agree with the idea of the BiP as a finished work and I think continual revisions of the base document weaken it.
I liked the pages TSosBR! posted for his revision. I don't think they're perfect, but I absolutely wouldn't call them a
weakening of the base document. He addressed the presentation from a completely different angle than how I would have done it (his is graphic; I would go literary). But it works for the same reason a (lyrical) song can be a beautiful piece of art and have lyrics that, on white paper, don't even merit as third-grade poetry.
QuoteHOWEVER, IT IS A GREAT AN IMPORTANT PIECE OF WORK WHICH REPRESENTS SOME IDEAS OF SOME DISCORDIANS AT SOME POINT IN TIME.
Yes.
One of the problem with constant revisions, over the years, of a non-technical piece of writing is that the authors change over the years, and if you continue to revise a piece you lose what it was when you wrote it. You will have a new piece that reflects where you are now, but you lose what you had when you were where you were then. Frankly, I think it's valuable to keep the old work, as much as it is to write new work.
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2009, 08:30:49 PM
Most people seem to dislike the "tone" or "attitude" of the BIP, which makes me think that if we wrote it in a Douglas Adams/Terry Pratchett style, then no one would have a problem.
Which is fucking retarded.
see, I think the medium is the message. Discussions about a meme's packaging are critical to the lifecycle of that meme. Whether we write a new BIP or not, understanding people's reaction to it is helpful for future projects.
Clearly a BIP document written in a more "zany" tone would catch
different flies than our vinegar version. That style of writing isn't common here at PD, and I'm not saying that it should be -- but hey, two discordians in two weeks have told us our work isn't funny enough. Agree or not, but I
do think that merits further discussion than a flat dismissal and a GTFO.
I dunno, I just think that in some ways we're shooting ourselves in the foot by getting into fights with everyone that doesn't like the BIP. Personally, I rely on feedback, specifically negative feedback, to get a more objective angle on my writing.
For clarity: I want to contrast the legit detailed feedback that Arefalis (bravely) provided with the totally pointless "Is it Discordian or not?" discussion, which is probably a dead end red herring.
Quote from: Nigel on June 09, 2009, 09:33:06 PM
One of the problem with constant revisions, over the years, of a non-technical piece of writing is that the authors change over the years, and if you continue to revise a piece you lose what it was when you wrote it. You will have a new piece that reflects where you are now, but you lose what you had when you were where you were then. Frankly, I think it's valuable to keep the old work, as much as it is to write new work.
Luckily, the old pdfs still exist
nothing lost at all :)
Quote from: Cramulus on June 09, 2009, 09:37:30 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2009, 08:30:49 PM
Most people seem to dislike the "tone" or "attitude" of the BIP, which makes me think that if we wrote it in a Douglas Adams/Terry Pratchett style, then no one would have a problem.
Which is fucking retarded.
see, I think the medium is the message. Discussions about a meme's packaging are critical to the lifecycle of that meme. Whether we write a new BIP or not, understanding people's reaction to it is helpful for future projects.
Clearly a BIP document written in a more "zany" tone would catch different flies than our vinegar version. That style of writing isn't common here at PD, and I'm not saying that it should be -- but hey, two discordians in two weeks have told us our work isn't funny enough. Agree or not, but I do think that merits further discussion than a flat dismissal and a GTFO.
I dunno, I just think that in some ways we're shooting ourselves in the foot by getting into fights with everyone that doesn't like the BIP. Personally, I rely on feedback, specifically negative feedback, to get a more objective angle on my writing.
For clarity: I want to contrast the legit detailed feedback that Arefalis (bravely) provided with the totally pointless "Is it Discordian or not?" discussion, which is probably a dead end red herring.
Quote from: Nigel on June 09, 2009, 09:33:06 PM
One of the problem with constant revisions, over the years, of a non-technical piece of writing is that the authors change over the years, and if you continue to revise a piece you lose what it was when you wrote it. You will have a new piece that reflects where you are now, but you lose what you had when you were where you were then. Frankly, I think it's valuable to keep the old work, as much as it is to write new work.
Luckily, the old pdfs still exist
nothing lost at all :)
Well said Cramulus!
Cramulus, I'm starting to like you a lot, and I swear it's not just for the flattery.
QuoteWhether we write a new BIP or not, understanding people's reaction to it is helpful for future projects.
Writing, compiling, and editing the BIP in the first place is, let's face it, a stunning achievement for the Discordian web presence. Lots of Discordians have
written stuff. Some of it's even good. But very few have ever
gotten together to do it. The issue that is relevant here is one of complexity: a body comprised of more than one entity has exponentially more inefficiencies in its system, yet it also has exponentially more reach. What a human being is capable of is unimagineable for ten trillion paramecium.
The fact that I am so critical (in some case, this is reactionary) of the BIP does not negate any of this. Nor does it mean I expect people to suddenly rewrite the project on my whim. The quote above summarizes very well what it
does mean, and since I feel like I'm adding little of substance overall to that, I think I might as well just stop here.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 09, 2009, 09:56:29 PM
Cramulus, I'm starting to like you a lot, and I swear it's not just for the flattery.
The WOMP is strong with him.
Quote
QuoteWhether we write a new BIP or not, understanding people's reaction to it is helpful for future projects.
Writing, compiling, and editing the BIP in the first place is, let's face it, a stunning achievement for the Discordian web presence. Lots of Discordians have written stuff. Some of it's even good. But very few have ever gotten together to do it. The issue that is relevant here is one of complexity: a body comprised of more than one entity has exponentially more inefficiencies in its system, yet it also has exponentially more reach. What a human being is capable of is unimagineable for ten trillion paramecium.
The fact that I am so critical (in some case, this is reactionary) of the BIP does not negate any of this. Nor does it mean I expect people to suddenly rewrite the project on my whim. The quote above summarizes very well what it does mean, and since I feel like I'm adding little of substance overall to that, I think I might as well just stop here.
So then, lets on to the next exciting project. Hope your stickin around.... I want to chalk up a Convert Me Win ;-)
Quote from: fomenter on June 02, 2009, 06:25:43 PM
humor is the fulcrum, the work being accomplished can be heavy (serious ) and the energy required to do the lifting can be large but by having humor (absurdity) put in the right place at the right time gets the job done with greater efficiency ...
the right joke in the right place can Carry a writing with a serious/heavy tone or help ease a "taking itself to seriously vibe" i agree the bip is done and moving on to new projects makes more sense, but its definitely a writing tool to keep in mind for future projects, the entire thing doesn't have to be humor but a little humor in the right place can make a project like this even better..
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2009, 08:45:33 PM
How come no one ever wants to discuss the ideas?
This reminds me of this guy in my classics class who complained that the Iliad was sexist.
Of course its sexist (if you are doing a presentism themed reading), but isn't the concept of the Illiad as the first real war story epic that featured war as what it is, a bloody feud for petty reasons where both sides suffer and the gods favor no one?
Quote from: Kai on June 09, 2009, 10:13:10 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2009, 08:45:33 PM
How come no one ever wants to discuss the ideas?
This reminds me of this guy in my classics class who complained that the Iliad was sexist.
Of course its sexist (if you are doing a presentism themed reading), but isn't the concept of the Illiad as the first real war story epic that featured war as what it is, a bloody feud for petty reasons where both sides suffer a/msg NickServ IDENTIFYnd the gods favor no one?
Fuck you, Kai.
Well, the Greeks didn't care about that stuff, really. Warrior ethos and all that. Yes it was petty and pointless but you got to strut around a battlefield in fricking armour, being all manly and shit.
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 10:17:59 PM
Well, the Greeks didn't care about that stuff, really. Warrior ethos and all that. Yes it was petty and pointless but you got to strut around a battlefield in fricking armour, being all manly and shit.
I don't know, Homer (or whoever started it) made it clear that no one had really won at the end, I mean, the thing ends in two funerals of great heros on both sides, the culprits who started the whole mess (Paris, Helen, Agamemnon and Achillies) walk free and no one was saved. The line that sums it up for me "In times of peace, sons bury their fathers; in times of war, fathers bury their suns". And maybe I just got it wrong with the first reading and don't really understand it yet, but thats the deeper meaning I got out of it so far.
Anyway, was just stupidly expanding upon LMNO's point, didn't really have anything to do with the discussion. Carry on.
Quote from: Kai on June 09, 2009, 10:24:08 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 10:17:59 PM
Well, the Greeks didn't care about that stuff, really. Warrior ethos and all that. Yes it was petty and pointless but you got to strut around a battlefield in fricking armour, being all manly and shit.
I don't know, Homer (or whoever started it) made it clear that no one had really won at the end, I mean, the thing ends in two funerals of great heros on both sides, the culprits who started the whole mess (Paris, Helen, Agamemnon and Achillies) walk free and no one was saved. The line that sums it up for me "In times of peace, sons bury their fathers; in times of war, fathers bury their suns". And maybe I just got it wrong with the first reading and don't really understand it yet, but thats the deeper meaning I got out of it so far.
I'm pretty sure that quote was a later addition, since it comes from Herodotus of Halicarnassus.
Did you miss the theme about greatness/glory and death, or a long yet anonymous life? I mean, that was the offer made to Achilles, and that Greek culture celebrated his choice suggests they found the former to be the right one.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 09, 2009, 08:50:39 PM
QuoteHow come no one ever wants to discuss the ideas?
Which ideas are those, huh? The Plato's Cave allegory, or the part where Somebody Should Do Something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI4XLhY10VA) About It?
You know, I really love how people think they're hot stuff for reading the BIP and thinking "Oh this is just Plato's Cave in different words."
Because it isn't. The ideas are somewhat similar, but the BIP isn't just the same old thing with a fresh coat of paint.
Plato's Cave suggests that we are only able to see shadows of what is truly real. This basically means our senses are limited, and the best we can do is recognize that what we see are but shadows or imitations of true ideal forms. The person in the cave is little more than an observer, and the allegory suggest that this is simply an inherent part of nature. It goes on to suggest that being a philosopher means that one can be aware of Really Real Reality. So it's basically an all-or-nothing deal, wherein one either knows the Really Real Truth or else one is a sucker. Which is stupid and rather masturbatory on the part of philosophers, IMO. To even think that a one-shot "enlightenment" is capable of curing one's ignorance of objective reality is, frankly, egotistical and dumb.
In the BIP, the person in the cell is much, much more than an observer, and there is far more to the process of becoming aware of objective reality. The bars of the cell are products of the prisoner's own mind. They might also be described as projected lenses of the prisoner's mind, which bring reality into focus but necessarily distort it in some way. There is no way of directly observing Really Real Reality, but it is possible to be aware that the way we perceive it is influenced by our beliefs, experiences, and biological limitations.
Just as we can take pictures of things using different ranges of the electromagnetic spectrum and thereby get a better idea of what that thing is really like, so too can the prisoner of the BIP get a better idea of what the world around him is like by taking on different perspectives or beliefs. However, just as a picture from the
entire range of the electromagnetic spectrum is both impossible to take on a single frame of film and would just look like a big mess anyway, so too is the prisoner unable to perceive the entirety of objective reality directly (the prisoner cannot remove all the bars at once or cease projecting any lens at all, in other words) and such direct observation would overwhelm the brain anyway.
In Plato's Cave, Really Real Reality is knowable by being a philosopher. In the BIP, it is not knowable, but philosophy is one of many ways in which one might get a better idea of it.
Sorry for the threadjack, and I realize that my description of Plato's Cave is so simplified and dumbed-down as to be offensive to any real student of philosophy. I'm just sick of hearing about it, and I think dismissing the BIP as a rehash of it is disingenuous.
QuoteYou know, I really love how people think they're hot stuff for reading the BIP and thinking "Oh this is just Plato's Cave in different words."
You know, I really love how people love to think other people think they're hot stuff for saying something with the slightest relationship to literature or philosophy, when in fact those other people are merely assuming basic cultural literacy on the part of their audience.
QuotePlato's Cave suggests [things that Plato probably actually meant with the cave allegory]...
I'd give you the same answer (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=21059.msg711886#msg711886) I gave Requia.
Its as if Plato's Cave and Reality Grids had a wild night at a Metaphor Mixer and woke up the next morning with a hangover, anterograde amnesia and a box of broken condoms.
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 10:27:31 PM
Quote from: Kai on June 09, 2009, 10:24:08 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 10:17:59 PM
Well, the Greeks didn't care about that stuff, really. Warrior ethos and all that. Yes it was petty and pointless but you got to strut around a battlefield in fricking armour, being all manly and shit.
I don't know, Homer (or whoever started it) made it clear that no one had really won at the end, I mean, the thing ends in two funerals of great heros on both sides, the culprits who started the whole mess (Paris, Helen, Agamemnon and Achillies) walk free and no one was saved. The line that sums it up for me "In times of peace, sons bury their fathers; in times of war, fathers bury their suns". And maybe I just got it wrong with the first reading and don't really understand it yet, but thats the deeper meaning I got out of it so far.
I'm pretty sure that quote was a later addition, since it comes from Herodotus of Halicarnassus.
Did you miss the theme about greatness/glory and death, or a long yet anonymous life? I mean, that was the offer made to Achilles, and that Greek culture celebrated his choice suggests they found the former to be the right one.
I got the theme that achilles could live a long and quiet life or stay and fight (and die young) on the shores of troy. Didn't see any glory in that.
I guess I misinterpreted the whole damn thing.
@Cainad: Right, Plato was working with the concept of eidos, these perfect type forms that all reality were just a (poor) reflection of. I would hope BIP would not be working on this idea, as it more or less was cast aside with the acceptance that types are mutable (Cf. On the Origin of Species). BIP philosophy says that not only is there no eidos, but you can make one up, we all make one up, and that eidos we make up traps us. Or something. Or I'm way way off.
Quote from: Cramulus on June 09, 2009, 09:37:30 PM
Luckily, the old pdfs still exist
nothing lost at all :)
Right, but the "old PDF's" could (and probably will, if my experience is any guide) easily just gradually be lost, and only the currently circulating whatever-we're-calling the BIP will remain. And I think that would be kind of sad. I'm far more in favor of a new project; a complete rewrite, if you will, with a different name.
Quote from: Kai on June 09, 2009, 10:36:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 10:27:31 PM
Quote from: Kai on June 09, 2009, 10:24:08 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 10:17:59 PM
Well, the Greeks didn't care about that stuff, really. Warrior ethos and all that. Yes it was petty and pointless but you got to strut around a battlefield in fricking armour, being all manly and shit.
I don't know, Homer (or whoever started it) made it clear that no one had really won at the end, I mean, the thing ends in two funerals of great heros on both sides, the culprits who started the whole mess (Paris, Helen, Agamemnon and Achillies) walk free and no one was saved. The line that sums it up for me "In times of peace, sons bury their fathers; in times of war, fathers bury their suns". And maybe I just got it wrong with the first reading and don't really understand it yet, but thats the deeper meaning I got out of it so far.
I'm pretty sure that quote was a later addition, since it comes from Herodotus of Halicarnassus.
Did you miss the theme about greatness/glory and death, or a long yet anonymous life? I mean, that was the offer made to Achilles, and that Greek culture celebrated his choice suggests they found the former to be the right one.
I got the theme that achilles could live a long and quiet life or stay and fight (and die young) on the shores of troy. Didn't see any glory in that.
I guess I misinterpreted the whole damn thing.
For my mother Thetis the goddess of silver feet tells me
I carry two sorts of destiny toward the day of my death. Either,
if I stay here and fight beside the city of the Trojans,
my return home is gone, but my glory shall be everlasting;
but if I return home to the beloved land of my fathers,
the excellence of my glory is gone, but there will be a long life
left for me, and my end in death will not come to me quickly.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 09, 2009, 10:34:17 PM
QuoteYou know, I really love how people think they're hot stuff for reading the BIP and thinking "Oh this is just Plato's Cave in different words."
You know, I really love how people love to think other people think they're hot stuff for saying something with the slightest relationship to literature or philosophy, when in fact those other people are merely assuming basic cultural literacy on the part of their audience.
QuotePlato's Cave suggests [things that Plato probably actually meant with the cave allegory]...
I'd give you the same answer (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=21059.msg711886#msg711886) I gave Requia.
Fair enough. I still think that this statement:
Quote from: Arafelis on June 09, 2009, 08:50:39 PM
QuoteHow come no one ever wants to discuss the ideas?
Which ideas are those, huh? The Plato's Cave allegory
is a disingenuous way of referring to the ideas of the BIP, but I suppose that's a matter of communication.
Quoteis a disingenuous way of referring to the ideas of the BIP, but I suppose that's a matter of communication.
It's definitely disingenuous. It's also ironic, since we just had a discussion about Plato's Cave as an idea in the BIP.
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 10:39:51 PM
Quote from: Kai on June 09, 2009, 10:36:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 10:27:31 PM
Quote from: Kai on June 09, 2009, 10:24:08 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 10:17:59 PM
Well, the Greeks didn't care about that stuff, really. Warrior ethos and all that. Yes it was petty and pointless but you got to strut around a battlefield in fricking armour, being all manly and shit.
I don't know, Homer (or whoever started it) made it clear that no one had really won at the end, I mean, the thing ends in two funerals of great heros on both sides, the culprits who started the whole mess (Paris, Helen, Agamemnon and Achillies) walk free and no one was saved. The line that sums it up for me "In times of peace, sons bury their fathers; in times of war, fathers bury their suns". And maybe I just got it wrong with the first reading and don't really understand it yet, but thats the deeper meaning I got out of it so far.
I'm pretty sure that quote was a later addition, since it comes from Herodotus of Halicarnassus.
Did you miss the theme about greatness/glory and death, or a long yet anonymous life? I mean, that was the offer made to Achilles, and that Greek culture celebrated his choice suggests they found the former to be the right one.
I got the theme that achilles could live a long and quiet life or stay and fight (and die young) on the shores of troy. Didn't see any glory in that.
I guess I misinterpreted the whole damn thing.
For my mother Thetis the goddess of silver feet tells me
I carry two sorts of destiny toward the day of my death. Either,
if I stay here and fight beside the city of the Trojans,
my return home is gone, but my glory shall be everlasting;
but if I return home to the beloved land of my fathers,
the excellence of my glory is gone, but there will be a long life
left for me, and my end in death will not come to me quickly.
can you give me the book and line number for that? I want to compare translations. thanks :)
Quote from: Kai on June 09, 2009, 10:45:21 PMcan you give me the book and line number for that? I want to compare translations. thanks :)
Richard Lattimore's and Book IX.410–16
Just so you know, I'm not taking exception to your interpretation, just pointing out the Ancient Greeks almost certainly wouldn't have thought of it that way, at least into the late Classical period (where rewriting legends to present a different meaning got more popular).
Quote from: Arafelis on June 09, 2009, 10:42:27 PM
Quoteis a disingenuous way of referring to the ideas of the BIP, but I suppose that's a matter of communication.
It's definitely disingenuous. It's also ironic, since we just had a discussion about Plato's Cave as an idea in the BIP.
Right.
Cainad,
Apparently gets all grumpy when semi-heated discussions range across multiple threads that are many pages long, each about similar subjects.
In retrospect, my post on the previous page was pretty much just reactionary bile and did not add anything new to the discussion. So I apologize to the thread in general for gumming it up.
I have reactionary bile fascination (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BileFascination).
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2009, 10:47:52 PM
Quote from: Kai on June 09, 2009, 10:45:21 PMcan you give me the book and line number for that? I want to compare translations. thanks :)
Richard Lattimore's and Book IX.410–16
Just so you know, I'm not taking exception to your interpretation, just pointing out the Ancient Greeks almost certainly wouldn't have thought of it that way, at least into the late Classical period (where rewriting legends to present a different meaning got more popular).
I found the corresponding lines at 471-478 in the same book, translation by Ennis Rees.
My goddess mother, Thetis
Of the silver feet, tells me I bear two fates
With me on my way to the grave. If I stay here
And fight about Troy, I'll never return to my home,
But men will remember my glory forever. On the other hand,
If I go back to the precious land of my fathers,
No glory at all will be mine, but life, long life,
Will be, and no early death shall ever come on me.
At this point, however, Achilles refuses Agamemnon's offer. He only enters battle later, in grief for his fallen friend Patroclus. There seemed to be no glory in it, only revenge, which I think points away from the glorification of war.
Quote from: fomenter on June 09, 2009, 08:57:03 PM
(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk61/fnord_photo/roflbot-w8aw.jpg?t=1244577341)
:spittake:
Quote from: Nigel on June 09, 2009, 10:37:04 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 09, 2009, 09:37:30 PM
Luckily, the old pdfs still exist
nothing lost at all :)
Right, but the "old PDF's" could (and probably will, if my experience is any guide) easily just gradually be lost, and only the currently circulating whatever-we're-calling the BIP will remain. And I think that would be kind of sad. I'm far more in favor of a new project; a complete rewrite, if you will, with a different name.
IAWTC
Except for typos and layout stuff, we don't rehash individual editions of Intermittens. Why can't the "larger" publications also follow this process?
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 09, 2009, 10:02:46 PM
Hope your stickin around.... I want to chalk up a Convert Me Win ;-)
Good Goddess really. I had hoped that one of the Convert_Me spags would interface with our ideas more than the shallow gloss Enders_Shadow has adopted.
I'm pretty sure I'm the one who introduced enders_shadow to Discordianism.
I accept anything this board throws at me as karmic justice.
:hashishim:
Quote from: Arafelis on June 10, 2009, 01:12:23 AM
I'm pretty sure I'm the one who introduced enders_shadow to Discordianism.
I accept anything this board throws at me as karmic justice.
http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=20433
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 10, 2009, 03:50:27 AM
Quote from: Arafelis on June 10, 2009, 01:12:23 AM
I'm pretty sure I'm the one who introduced enders_shadow to Discordianism.
I accept anything this board throws at me as karmic justice.
http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=20433
:lulz:
Nice try, Arefalis (or should I say, DAVE).
Heh. If Sun Tzu had decided to do a sequel called "The Art of Fail" This one would have a chapter all to himself :lulz:
Ok, you guys are driving me to write the Pinealist version of the BIP.
NOW LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!
\
:podpeople:
Quote from: LMNO on June 10, 2009, 01:02:42 PM
Ok, you guys are driving me to write the Pinealist version of the BIP.
NOW LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!
\
:podpeople:
DO IT
You know, I actually tried to do it this morning.
Then I threw up in my mouth a little bit.
Quote from: LMNO on June 10, 2009, 05:07:29 PMYou know, I actually tried to do it this morning.
Then I threw up in my mouth a little bit.
insert "fnord" at every 23rd word. don't look while doing it. copy "fnord" on the clipboard and go ctrl+rightarrow (23x), ctrl+v, repeatedly. scroll down so you can't see what you did, export to PDF, upload and blame Iason.
Not enough St Gulik, et al.
LMNO
-Old Skool.
Already pinealizing the BiP in my play "Prison's Just Another Word For..."
Well, not really pinealizing, but trying to walk somewhere between the PD and BiP.