Religous Argumentationating

[Nephew Twiddleton]

ph, it seems to me like you're spouting a mishmash of other people's ideas. You could at least rephrase "Cosmic zombie Jew" to make it at least seem like there is a possibility that you arrived to a similar conclusion independently.

[Phox]

Yeah, theres about 14 different definitions for witch, but the common assumption is the implication of gothic satanism, which isnt real.

The only real problem I have with taking the bible seriously, aside from circular logic, is the superiority complex that usually accompanies a bible thumping monotheist.

Phox, earlier I said

if you have original texts or proper translations then Ill take it seriously

So no, I dont have them. Problem is, neither do the majority of the followers.

Okay, but you obviously don't know shit about translation, so you are in no position to say what a "correct" translation is. I have 8 different translations of the Bible sitting on my top shelf. Plus, the NT in Greek. Therefore, I may make a linguistic argument. You, have no firsthand knowledge of the original texts, except what you read on whiny Wicca sites, evidently. (Seriously, if you're going to bring up mistranslations, why not bring up "homosexual"? "Witch" makes it all to obvious where you did your research.)

Therefore, your arguments are invalid, because you are trying to pigeonhole anyone who might want to make a Christian argument. Once again, that ain't me, but fair is fair. Either you say what an acceptable translation is  (you can't), or you allow whatever people want to use.

P.S. I'm a  Gothic Satanist.

[pH]

Gothic satanism isnt a goth who is a satanist, just like Gothic architecture, the German Goth tribe, and Goth music are all different things.
Satanism (that i know of) has two branches that dislike eachother, luciferan and something else that i forget. Technically, Gothic Satanism is stuff like the witches in Hamlet. Mixing dogs tails, newts, bat wings, etc. while chanting, with pointy hats and warts and such. Are there people who follow that? Sure, mental cases and angst-ridden teens trying to be rebellious and badass. Is there a serious established religion of it? Maybe an underground cult of a few people, I'll give you that.

www.evilbible.com, maintained by an ordained priest.

[Requia ☣]

As long as you're on the topic Phoxie, what's your take on the suffering a witch to live bit?

[pH]

As long as you're on the topic Phoxie, what's your take on the suffering a witch to live bit?

I'd like to know too.

I have no problem if you show me I'm wrong, I'll change what I say, but until then I'm gonna keep going at it.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Gothic satanism isnt a goth who is a satanist, just like Gothic architecture, the German Goth tribe, and Goth music are all different things.
Satanism (that i know of) has two branches that dislike eachother, luciferan and something else that i forget. Technically, Gothic Satanism is stuff like the witches in Hamlet. Mixing dogs tails, newts, bat wings, etc. while chanting, with pointy hats and warts and such. Are there people who follow that? Sure, mental cases and angst-ridden teens trying to be rebellious and badass. Is there a serious established religion of it? Maybe an underground cult of a few people, I'll give you that.

www.evilbible.com, maintained by an ordained priest.

There's Luciferianism, Theistic Satanism, LaVeyan Satanism, Demonolatry and of course your anti-Semitic varieties of Satanism. Adding Gothic to the list is just silly. It's already covered under other things. You missed the obvious joke.

[pH]

I think early on in this thread we established that I'm generally oblivious like that.

[Requia ☣]

As long as you're on the topic Phoxie, what's your take on the suffering a witch to live bit?

I'd like to know too.

I have no problem if you show me I'm wrong, I'll change what I say, but until then I'm gonna keep going at it.

No see, you're working with a collection of stuff that isn't even tertiary knowledge, then challenging the expert to override that.  This makes you an idiot even if you're right.

[pH]

I have no problem being an idiot, I think we established that earlier too.

[Prince Glittersnatch III]

I have no problem being an idiot, I think we established that earlier too.

You know in the age of Google theres really no excuse for not knowing things like this.
Theres no time limit on your posts, you can take as long as you want to write a well informed, carefully thought out reply.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

From the wikipedia (yeah, yeah I know):

The words "witch" and "witchcraft" appear in some English versions of the Christian Holy Bible. One verse that is probably responsible for more deaths of suspected witches than any other passage from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) is Exodus 22:18. In the King James Version, this reads: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." The precise meaning of the Hebrew word kashaph, here translated as 'witch' and in some other modern versions, 'sorceress', is uncertain. In the Septuagint it was translated as pharmakeia, meaning 'poisoner', and on this basis, Reginald Scot claimed in the 16th century that 'witch' was an incorrect translation and poisoners were intended.[6] His theory still holds some currency, but is not widely accepted, and in Daniel 2:2 kashaph is listed alongside other magic practitioners who could interpret dreams: magicians, astrologers and Chaldeans.

The Judeo-Christian abhorrence of witches was not peculiar to them. The pagan Roman Empire, Egyptian Empire and Babylonian Empires all developed laws against malevolent witchcraft. The ancient Code of Hammurabi specifically called for death to witches, and also proscribed false accusations of witchcraft:

   If a man has laid a charge of witchcraft and has not justified it, he upon whom the witchcraft is laid shall go to the holy river; he shall plunge into the holy river and if the holy river overcome him, he who accused him shall take to himself his house.

[Golden Applesauce]

If you have original texts or proper translations then Ill take it seriously, but I know specific things got mistranslated, like "suffer not a witch to live" was originally "suffer not a poisoner to live"

I know that the Romans equated witchcraft (in the "black magic" sense) with poisoning, in that they were both ways to make someone sick/dead/have a bunch of failed crops without being manly and knifing them in public.  I don't know if that's relevant to the translation there or not.  But I kind of get the impression that you only know a tiny amount about Christianity, but think that the bits you do know that most people don't make you some kind of scholar.  Seriously, though, the KJV is a Catholic translation?  IT HAS KING JAMES RIGHT IN THE TITLE, FFS.

[East Coast Hustle]

If my religion is more fake and ridiculous than other religions, it means you find certain religions less fake and ridiculous.
Okay, basic look at general christianity.
Cosmic zombie jew died to remove an evil that was put inside you because a woman who was made out of a rib was tricked into eating an apple by a talking snake thousands of years ago, so we need to worship him by telepathically telling him he is our master, and symbolically eating his flesh and drinking his blood.
But no, general idea that everything will end up in an equilibrium of some kind, magick doesnt work, and there are no sentient or corporeal higher powers, thats the crazy shit right there.

1) You seem to be arguing as though someone in this thread is defending christianity as being a useful model.

2) Your last sentence, while a reasonably sensible stance to take, is in no way shape or form compatible with any kind of Wicca.

[Requia ☣]

If my religion is more fake and ridiculous than other religions, it means you find certain religions less fake and ridiculous.
Okay, basic look at general christianity.
Cosmic zombie jew died to remove an evil that was put inside you because a woman who was made out of a rib was tricked into eating an apple by a talking snake thousands of years ago, so we need to worship him by telepathically telling him he is our master, and symbolically eating his flesh and drinking his blood.
But no, general idea that everything will end up in an equilibrium of some kind, magick doesnt work, and there are no sentient or corporeal higher powers, thats the crazy shit right there.

1) You seem to be arguing as though someone in this thread is defending christianity as being a useful model.

2) Your last sentence, while a reasonably sensible stance to take, is in no way shape or form compatible with any kind of Wicca.

He's a list arguer, he can only give arguments he's heard from other people, and only against religions that fit certain preconcieved notions.

[Phox]

As long as you're on the topic Phoxie, what's your take on the suffering a witch to live bit?

Honestly, no idea, because I don't do Hebrew. In my readings, I have found indication that PH is on the right track, though it varies from "poisoner" to "potion-maker" to even "medicine-giver". I cannot express an opinion on which is accurate, and whether or not "witches" would fall under that category ( there IS contention that regardless of what the word means, it may in fact, still include witches under its purview.)