Excuse me while I vomit.- Trigger Warning for Rape and Rape Culture.

[East Coast Hustle]

You don't have any idea what boundaries actually are. Personal boundaries are about what you are comfortable having done to yourself, not what you are comfortable with other people doing when it doesn't involve you personally. Those are totally different things.

You can replace that example with the difference in what the Asian culture views as personal space and what level of contact is acceptable and compare it to the American version.  A person moving from one culture to another can transition to adopt the ideas of the other culture and thus the same personal boundaries.

Thing is, we are specifically looking at western culture, and personal boundaries within that. If you want to discuss other regional social mores I'd suggest you start a new thread, because in this case, it's falling into massive derail territory.

Regardless of BF's 8 or so pages of refusing to understand why he's coming off as a creep, I think this thread has been hugely informative. Even for people like me who already view people as people and don't alter the respect accorded them based on what genitals they happen to have, there's always more to learn especially if you're on the privileged side of the gender divide. It's incredibly easy to overlook things because you're in a position of privilege even when you're aware that you're in that position.

Cool! The thing is about being someone who has privilege, is that oftentimes people without it know more about how it works to be that person than the people who have it do about those without.

I'm also glad that I'm no longer a one liner and emoticons poster these days. HEY IT ONLY TOOK 3 YEARS!

No doubt. I try very hard to be conscious of when I'm in a position of privilege, especially when it's going to alter the interpersonal dynamic between myself and someone else, but it's never going to be a thing that I'm FORCED to think about ALL THE TIME because I was lucky enough to be born as someone who, to appearances, utterly won the genetic lottery (white, male, American, not dirt-poor). It's a luxury for me to understand this sort of stuff (though I still think it's very important), not a necessity for survival.

[Pope Lecherous]

Thing is, we are specifically looking at western culture, and personal boundaries within that. If you want to discuss other regional social mores I'd suggest you start a new thread, because in this case, it's falling into massive derail territory.

The thing is IT IS extremely relevant to the current discussion because it demonstrates that people's personal boundaries are in part formed by their culture, social expectations, and the ideas an individual has about these things and related subjects.

I guess that challenging someone's personal boundaries and then respecting whatever decision they make is behavior that is fucked up and makes me a sociopath.  Of course some of you seem to believe it's not possible that i'm less afraid to connect with others than the average person, and some of you also think that i would FORCE someone to do this.  What holds me back is morality.  I firmly believe it's wrong to force people to do things, but influencing them is not wrong.

I would like your thoughts on the above quote Pixie.  Whether you believe the above is true or not, i don't know...  I insist that it is.  If i am a psychopath/sociopath that does suck for those around me and ultimately myself because i CAN destroy the lives of those around me and myself.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

I guess that challenging someone's personal boundaries and then respecting whatever decision they make is behavior that is fucked up and makes me a sociopath.  Of course some of you seem to believe it's not possible that i'm less afraid to connect with others than the average person, and some of you also think that i would FORCE someone to do this.  What holds me back is morality.  I firmly believe it's wrong to force people to do things, but influencing them is not wrong.

Maybe, just maybe, it's because your coming across as potentially aggressive and manipulative (TRYING TO INFLUENCE OTHERS IS DIFFERENT FROM ASKING THEM WHY THEY REACT THE WAY THEY DO.). This may be down to a shitty choice of language and an inability to fully articulate what you're getting at, or it's because you are a douchebag. I don't know you personally, or even very well from this forum, so I've no idea what it actually is.

PROTIP: When dealing with someone who in the scale of privilege (see Kyriarchy) has less than you do, the best thing you can do is FUCKING WELL LISTEN and not get defensive about it.  If a black lady told me I'd fucked up somehow in a conversation about race and feminism, I'd apologise and damned well listen to what she had to say.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

The creepy part is because by challenging why someone has reacted or asserted boundaries to to you, it's an aggressive action.

Whereas realising that you have made someone uncomfortable and asking why they reacted in the way they did in a way that doesn't seem like you are making out that it is an overreaction , and LISTENING TO THEM to prevent a repeat of the action that caused the response is an empathy led approach, and it's what makes a biped a biped. If they don't want to explain why, well that's their choice, and forcing the issue is what makes it a dick move.

Is that clear enough for you?

[Juana]

I just wanted to thank you ladies for this thread. Reading it has validated the feeling I've had about a certain event during my teen years.
It's also nice to know that I'm not really all that odd because I take some time before I feel comfortable with people. Seems my intuition might actually work after all.

Hey sita!

This thread is pretty awesome. I've always felt like there was something wrong with me that am always afraid of most men, strangers or not. It is good to know I'm not just crazy.

Nobody's "odd" or "has something wrong" because they realize that there's a faction of men out there who view them as prey.

TF
Likes guys. But is not a cottontail, dammit

For all that we're gaslit otherwise, this!
Also, "cottontail"? I'd never heard the word used for that. I like it.

You don't have any idea what boundaries actually are. Personal boundaries are about what you are comfortable having done to yourself, not what you are comfortable with other people doing when it doesn't involve you personally. Those are totally different things.

You can replace that example with the difference in what the Asian culture views as personal space and what level of contact is acceptable and compare it to the American version.  A person moving from one culture to another can transition by adopting the ideas of the other culture and thus the same personal boundaries.

Boundaries are about FEELING SAFE and COMFORTABLE with other people. Of course culture plays into that. I'm an American; we have big space bubbles. Keep following me when I move to accommodate my space bubble after I've told you to knock it off, and I'll make you suffer for making me feel unsafe, either during or after the fact.
(oh, wait, that's enforcing my boundaries and that's bad!)


Let me emphasize this: boundaries are what you feel safe allowing to be done to your person. They are affected by culture, yes; they change as you grow older, yes; but it is not your body, it is not your safety and another person's boundaries are not any fucking thing you have a right to mess with. You do not get to determine what feels safe for another person because you are not that other person.

I guess that challenging someone's personal boundaries and then respecting whatever decision they make is behavior that is fucked up and makes me a sociopath.  Of course some of you seem to believe it's not possible that i'm less afraid to connect with others than the average person, and some of you also think that i would FORCE someone to do this.  What holds me back is morality.  I firmly believe it's wrong to force people to do things, but influencing them is not wrong.

Here's the deal, Lech. When you plant - or try to plant - that seed of doubt in a female/woman's mind, you are feeding what we are already taught from birth: that our opinions and our feelings are not important and that yours, and men's in general, are more important. Enforcing our boundaries is an act that goes counter to our cultural conditioning - we're supposed to be meek and polite and don't worry your pretty little head, honey, and let the men do the talking. Even when we know we have every right to do so, it can be hard because we have conditioning to navigate to do so (Pixie talked about it upthread, Nigel's mentioned it (with the guy next to her at the bar who got handsy), and I've had this problem, too, on occasion, where I know I have the right to tell a guy to buzz off but end up gritting my teeth and tolerating it because I don't know how to do it in that situation while satisfying my conditioning).

By challenging a female/woman's boundaries (which is making them feel unsafe! this cannot be emphasized enough!), you are telling them that their feelings about their safety are invalid and that you, as a man, have a greater claim to their body than they do. Not everyone has beaten their conditioning enough to tell you to fuck off in every situation as it is; they sure as fuck don't need to be told they have no right to their feelings.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I guess that challenging someone's personal boundaries and then respecting whatever decision they make is behavior that is fucked up and makes me a sociopath.  Of course some of you seem to believe it's not possible that i'm less afraid to connect with others than the average person, and some of you also think that i would FORCE someone to do this.  What holds me back is morality.  I firmly believe it's wrong to force people to do things, but influencing them is not wrong.

Either you honestly don't understand what we mean when we say "boundaries" and are too hung up on being "right" to recognize it, or you have some kind of psychological/personality disorder that prevents you from understanding the nature of other people's personal boundaries, because you CAN'T simultaneously challenge someone's boundaries AND respect their decision. Those two things are mutually exclusive. The act of challenging someone's boundaries is INHERENTLY DISRESPECTFUL. Interestingly, a primary marker for Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a failure to recognize other people's boundaries as being real or valid, particularly if they are "inconvenient".

You may call it "being less afraid to connect with others", but I suspect a psychologist would call it "poor personal boundaries", because you don't seem to have a very good sense of what's appropriate and what's not in terms of interpersonal interactions. Trying to influence someone's personal boundaries IS wrong.

You may wish to read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001930/

[Pope Lecherous]

Maybe, just maybe, it's because your coming across as potentially aggressive and manipulative (TRYING TO INFLUENCE OTHERS IS DIFFERENT FROM ASKING THEM WHY THEY REACT THE WAY THEY DO.).

I asked freeky why she reacted the way she did in that situation with the guy but she never got back to me.  I don't know if she missed it or doesn't want to talk about it.  As far as asking why somebody reacts the way they do you can do this by creating a map of their values and use that hasty/simple model to anticipate their behavior or reactions.  You don't have to ask directly why for very many things at all because the more a person (candidly) speaks the more they reveal about their values and how their mind works.  I have one for everyone i ever speak to, ever. 

As for influencing someone i'll be hard pressed to see it as bad so long as it's done in an ethical manner.  Again the only thing preventing me from abusing others is a code of ethics and my personal ideas of what is right and wrong.  Much like most people who participate in civilization.

This may be down to a shitty choice of language and an inability to fully articulate what you're getting at, or it's because you are a douchebag. I don't know you personally, or even very well from this forum, so I've no idea what it actually is.

It is the first option. No doubt.  When ideas are articulated for the first time they often take on new meaning or new life.  That's a lot of what you are seeing.  My inability to convert points on a web of idea into human readable thought. Sorry to use you guys as sort of a mechanism to do this but it has been very educational.

PROTIP: When dealing with someone who in the scale of privilege (see Kyriarchy) has less than you do, the best thing you can do is FUCKING WELL LISTEN and not get defensive about it.  If a black lady told me I'd fucked up somehow in a conversation about race and feminism, I'd apologise and damned well listen to what she had to say.

This is definitely a subject  i will read more into.  As far as this discussion goes, what is at the center is that influencing others is not wrong and it can be done ethically.


ETA:  Let me catch up with your previous posts and consider them

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

This is definitely a subject  i will read more into.  As far as this discussion goes, what is at the center is that influencing others is not wrong and it can be done ethically.

Stupid puppy thinks he's the center of the universe, so what he makes up in his head as the center of the discussion must be the center of discussion for everyone. 

Like I said, narcissistic personality disorder.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Puppy, you've got something badly wrong with you.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think that it's worth stating, in the interest of maintaining fixed goalposts, that influencing the opinions and ideas of others can certainly be done ethically (we do it here all the time, after all), but challenging their personal boundaries cannot, particularly in a setting where a person with more power is trying to "influence" a person with less power. That's called "coercion" and in this context, coercion is a precursor to rape.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Motherfucker still hasn't got that attempting to influence women when they enforce boundaries heightens the anxiety around enforcing boundaries, and even if a negative impact doesn't come from him personally, it could likely come from some other dude, for fear of social repercussions that she feels is worse than having boundaries crossed.  It's some exhausting shit.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

I think that it's worth stating, in the interest of maintaining fixed goalposts, that influencing the opinions and ideas of others can certainly be done ethically (we do it here all the time, after all), but challenging their personal boundaries cannot, particularly in a setting where a person with more power is trying to "influence" a person with less power. That's called "coercion" and in this context, coercion is a precursor to rape.

Also, THIS.

[Freeky]

Bf,  I am at this point assuming you are a troll. That's why I didn't get back to you.

On the off chance you aren't, though, no, I was not afraid or uncomfortable when he said that. I was indignant and insensed (incensed?) At him trying to be pushy and shame (?) Me into continuing talking to him when, at that point, I had said several times I had to stop talking and get to sleep. It reminded me slightly of negging, only not quite.

However, I do feel extremely uncomfortable with the idea of being around him in person for reasons I can't put words to yet, only point at things such as "need to get to sleep" and "it's your choice" "NEED" vs. "CHOICE"

[Juana]

Girl, I know exactly what you're talking about and it sounds like you're riding the right motorcycle with that guy.

[Freeky]

Girl, I know exactly what you're talking about and it sounds like you're riding the right motorcycle with that guy.