Thread is now about Holist.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Two words:  Pet Sounds


Which, incidentally, was an influence on The Beatles when they were making Sgt. Pepper.

So, one boy band influenced another.  Not precisely a shock.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And again, Sloop John B was the most blatant rip off of a people's heritage since Elvis crapped all over Black folks.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

They are awful. But you know what? They probably love music and love to play, and furthermore, they're probably still better at it than anyone here.

My argument isn't that they were not good vocalists and musicians (they were), but that they were culturally sterile.  They were a museum piece for the previous decade.

True; my point is separate from your point.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

They are awful. But you know what? They probably love music and love to play, and furthermore, they're probably still better at it than anyone here.

My argument isn't that they were not good vocalists and musicians (they were), but that they were culturally sterile.  They were a museum piece for the previous decade.

True; my point is separate from your point.

And valid.  I freely admit that I have the musical talent of a lichen.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

They are awful. But you know what? They probably love music and love to play, and furthermore, they're probably still better at it than anyone here.

My argument isn't that they were not good vocalists and musicians (they were), but that they were culturally sterile.  They were a museum piece for the previous decade.

True; my point is separate from your point.

And valid.  I freely admit that I have the musical talent of a lichen.

I can carry a tune, that's about it. But that kind of thing is sheer torture for amateur musicians. I see it in the glass world, too, the bitter bitter jealousy when someone is wildly successful and some of the part-timers, the hobbyists, are whispering to each other behind his back "But his work isn't even that good" and "Your beads are nicer than that".

And sometimes, I look at the work of the successful artist, and I can see that they are churning out different versions of the same thing, sometimes not even an especially complicated thing, and commanding top dollar for it... but I can also see that they have ten years of practice under their belt, and that they spend 20 hours a week behind the torch (this is a lot of time to spend torching, each hour of torching generates about 2 hours of non-torch work), so that they have the precision and skill to produce exactly what they want to produce every time. Do they lose their vision, doing what is essentially production work? Sometimes. Usually they gradually evolve, trying new things, finding a few things that sell well and working on those until they get burnt out on them and then shifting to something else. But, even when what they're making lacks vision, when it's just the same damn thing rehashed over and over and over again, they're still more technically skilled than the hobbyists who are sniping at them from the sidelines, and that's what drives the hobbyists crazy.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

They are awful. But you know what? They probably love music and love to play, and furthermore, they're probably still better at it than anyone here.

My argument isn't that they were not good vocalists and musicians (they were), but that they were culturally sterile.  They were a museum piece for the previous decade.

True; my point is separate from your point.

And valid.  I freely admit that I have the musical talent of a lichen.

I can carry a tune, that's about it. But that kind of thing is sheer torture for amateur musicians. I see it in the glass world, too, the bitter bitter jealousy when someone is wildly successful and some of the part-timers, the hobbyists, are whispering to each other behind his back "But his work isn't even that good" and "Your beads are nicer than that".

And sometimes, I look at the work of the successful artist, and I can see that they are churning out different versions of the same thing, sometimes not even an especially complicated thing, and commanding top dollar for it... but I can also see that they have ten years of practice under their belt, and that they spend 20 hours a week behind the torch, so that they have the precision and skill to produce exactly what they want to produce every time. Do they lose their vision, doing what is essentially production work? Sometimes. Usually they gradually evolve, trying new things, finding a few things that sell well and working on those until they get burnt out on them and then shifting to something else. But, even when what they're making lacks vision, when it's just the same damn thing rehashed over and over and over again, they're still more technically skilled than the hobbyists who are sniping at them from the sidelines, and that's what drives the hobbyists crazy.

Same thing, PRECISELY.  The amateur musician hates the successful musician, and calls him/her a sellout.

Also, part & parcel of many forms of art is the ability to do things consistently.  In my brief stint in the comics biz, I noticed that the very hardest part for the artist is doing the same face the same way every panel.  It stands out like a sore thumb when a character's chin is different in every panel.

And how do you gain the ability to do that?  Part of it is talent...But the majority is sitting there, hour after hour, day after day, year after year, DRAWING.  It's bone-grinding WORK.

And the sheer number of hobbyists who can't understand why they aren't working for DC or Marvel or Image because Mommy and their friends told them they're "really good at this" is staggering.  I have a buddy over at Dark Horse who is responsible for the hatemail bag.  99% of what he gets is people complaining about the artwork, self-described "part-timers" who "would do a better job if the industry wasn't sewn up".  He occasionally calls them on their bluffs.  They almost never respond, and when they do, it's universally crap.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Remember when P3NT was all excited about being able to do the "eskimo roll" on BOTH SIDES?

At first I was like..."Okaaay".  Then I realized I was saying it in a warm, dry chair, and not in the fucking North Sea in a teeny little boat.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

And that's where the "only in it for the money and not the love of music" claim falls apart. People go into dentistry or get an MBA for the paycheck. They don't spend ten or twenty or thirty years practicing diligently for hours every day to learn to be skilled at something difficult that almost nobody ever actually gets paid for, on the off chance that they'll make it big. That may be part of the dream -- hell, I always dreamed of someday making beads for a living, and people thought I was crazy, they actually laughed at me -- but it's ridiculous to imagine it's the primary motivator.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Remember when P3NT was all excited about being able to do the "eskimo roll" on BOTH SIDES?

At first I was like..."Okaaay".  Then I realized I was saying it in a warm, dry chair, and not in the fucking North Sea in a teeny little boat.

See, that's love.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And that's where the "only in it for the money and not the love of music" claim falls apart. People go into dentistry or get an MBA for the paycheck. They don't spend ten or twenty or thirty years practicing diligently for hours every day to learn to be skilled at something difficult that almost nobody ever actually gets paid for, on the off chance that they'll make it big. That may be part of the dream -- hell, I always dreamed of someday making beads for a living, and people thought I was crazy, they actually laughed at me -- but it's ridiculous to imagine it's the primary motivator.

I think the primary motivator is the spotlight¹ and the ability to be heard. 




¹ Except for drummers who are born, live, and die in the back, in the dark.  Like Morlocks.

[LMNO]

[AFK]

And that's where the "only in it for the money and not the love of music" claim falls apart. People go into dentistry or get an MBA for the paycheck. They don't spend ten or twenty or thirty years practicing diligently for hours every day to learn to be skilled at something difficult that almost nobody ever actually gets paid for, on the off chance that they'll make it big. That may be part of the dream -- hell, I always dreamed of someday making beads for a living, and people thought I was crazy, they actually laughed at me -- but it's ridiculous to imagine it's the primary motivator.

Of course everyone who goes into music does so because they enjoy performing or creating music.  That isn't argued at all.  However, with corporate rock, or pop, mainstream, whatever you want to call it, a machine comes along and plunks 4 or 5 of those wide-eyed dreamers and outs them on an assembly lone and tells them exactly what to do, what buttons to push to make this stale, sterile, pre-packaged music.


It's like taking the person who had a dream of being a famous potter renowned for their pottery prowess, and then sitting them in front of a machine to pull a lever that produces assembly-line, plastic vases. 


Fuck that shit!  I'd rather encourage that person to shun The Machine and make their own stuff.


That's one reason I hate corporate music. 

[P3nT4gR4m]

I'm kinda ashamed to admit it but the beach boys are a guilty pleasure of mine but, that said, I totally agree with part 4

[Don Coyote]

That's a lot like why when I was into pottery I spent so much time on the wheel trying to make identical pieces. There were students in that ckass that didn't get it, but Professor Dick understood.  Granted I fucking suck,  more so in that I haven't done any pottery for close to 10 years.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Part 3

Thing about being around artists of any kind is, you're going to meet some interesting people.  Back in 1985 or so, there was a joint in Chicago called The Cabaret Metro.  It was an awful little shithole of a place, but I saw Lou Reed there, and Black Flag, and a bunch of other great acts.  The only constant there was Jerry the Skinhead.

Jerry was this skinny little guy who bounced for the place.  Bald, Doc Martins, stripey pants, suspenders, white tee shirt.  And his smile.  He spent the entire evening on a folding chair, watching the crowd with this horrid little smile that said "I'll be wearing this smile when I beat you to death.  It won't change a bit."  He scared the living blue Jesus out of all of us.  There were never any fights, and that was a rough fucking crowd, even for the 80s.

The Metro wouldn't have been the same experience without him, which only goes to show that in the world of art, it's the personalities that really make the difference, even if that personality is a 2mm deep smear of glee and homicidal mania.

And it's usually personality that determines who the next big thing is.  Example:  Madonna vs Cindi Lauper.  That contest (which wasn't bitter or even recognized, I think, at the time) determined music's direction for about 5 years or so.  Cindi Lauper had a better voice, this amazing range, but she fell down flat when she allowed herself to be defined by Girls Just Wanna Have Fun...While Madonna moved from teeny bopper to one "shock" after another.  When she made the video for Like a Prayer, her career was sealed, because EVERYONE had an opinion on her at that point.  Not only the burning crosses thing, but she made suckface with Thank You Black Jesus.  And everyone was like "HEY!  JESUS WASN'T BLACK!  AND WHY'S THAT THERE WHITE WOMAN MAKIN' KISSY FACE WITH HIM?"  Pissed EVERYONE off, usually for multiple reasons.  Cindi Lauper was never heard from again.  Which is kind of a shame.  She seemed so nice.

It's hard to remember how disturbing that video was when it came out, given that by today's standards, it was pretty small potatoes.  But at the time it gave people the screaming jimjams, and that's what most people want in their art.  They WANT to hate it, to get really, really fucking angry.  They WANT to be upset...Just so they can remember what an honest emotion FEELS like.  And they weren't going to get that shit from The Beach Boys, that's for fucking sure.  There's a band that came out of the gate stale.  Wait, they get a chapter all to themselves, because they were so fucking awful.  So, yeah, that's next.

To be continued

Cyndi tried. IIRC, Chuck Berry was the only person before her to have a song in the top 40 about masturbation (My Ding A Ling), and he was a man. A bad, bad swarthy man who did armed robberies before he started making money. CYNDI HAD A TOP 40 SONG ABOUT A WOMAN JACKING OFF. But I think a lot of people MISSED that point (or possibly didn't give a fuck, which is uncharacteristic for americans...maybe they were too busy worrying about satanic messages in Judas Priest lyrics or something) the same way they're missing the fact that Miley Cyrus did A NAKED VIDEO WITH SNOT, while they're screeching about her twerking and making a self-depreciating remark about "tiny strokes". Miley covers a LOT more bases, though. Cyndi should've been more Miley.

Also: LOLZ, resident bop bag thinks that Madonna is "evenly matched" vocally with a woman who has a four or five octave range.