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[Cain]

You say "born stupid", I say "conditioned not to be curious outside of their experiences."

Which is still a survival trait in much of the world, where being too curious of things outside ones experience may involve a whole range of new and potentially fatal experiences if that line of enquiry is not soon curtailed.

[LMNO]

No argument from me.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So you guys think that NOBODY is just naturally limited by natural stupidity?

In a separate but related question, do you only recognize defect-based forms of mental retardation?

Some of the people who are born stupid probably suffer from environmental toxicity in the womb... fetal alcohol syndrome is common, for instance. Do you not believe that brain damage from fetal alcohol syndrome or oxygen deprivation or other parthenogens could result in irrecoverable stupidity?

I said that most people could do better, but some people have the misfortune to be born stupid. Hence my choice to have compassion. Are you seriously arguing that NO ONE is born stupid, and therefore there is no reason behind such a compassion?

Clinically, "Mental Retardation" has a cutoff line, above which people who are unfortunate are still limited, but do not qualify as disabled. Mental ability exists in a spectrum. Some of the people are near one edge of the spectrum, some are near the other edges, some people are nearer the center. Some of the people are not limited enough to be defined as retarded, but they are pretty close. I don't like retarded people, but I do feel sorry for them.

[AFK]

So you guys think that NOBODY is just naturally limited by natural stupidity?

Natural stupidity sounds like one of those things when you ask 100 different people you'll get 100 different answers/definitions.

In a separate but related question, do you only recognize defect-based forms of mental retardation?

Some of the people who are born stupid probably suffer from environmental toxicity in the womb... fetal alcohol syndrome is common, for instance. Do you not believe that brain damage from fetal alcohol syndrome or oxygen deprivation or other parthenogens could result in irrecoverable stupidity?

It's still a birth defect.  I'd say it's in the same class as mental retardation. 

I said that most people could do better, but some people have the misfortune to be born stupid. Hence my choice to have compassion. Are you seriously arguing that NO ONE is born stupid, and therefore there is no reason behind such a compassion?

Again, I don't think anyone is born stupid.  Anyone who finds the desire and will to learn will do so.  It's not a matter of stupidity, it's a matter of drive.  This of course can be stifled by environment, but short of birth defect or other physiological harm or malady, I believe there is always potential. 

Clinically, "Mental Retardation" has a cutoff line, above which people who are unfortunate are still limited, but do not qualify as disabled. Mental ability exists in a spectrum. Some of the people are near one edge of the spectrum, some are near the other edges, some people are nearer the center. Some of the people are not limited enough to be defined as retarded, but they are pretty close. I don't like retarded people, but I do feel sorry for them.

That's an interesting perspective.  When you say you don't like "retarded people" are you talking clinical or your definition of "retarded" or "naturally stupid"?

[hunter s.durden]

Clinically, "Mental Retardation" has a cutoff line, above which people who are unfortunate are still limited, but do not qualify as disabled.

I don't generally go around giving IQ tests to the people I meet, but in short, no.

If you are not actually retarded or insane, you get no sympathy.

Actually, even if you are, I sometimes get a "survival of the fittest" mentality.
But I'm insane.

[LMNO]

"environmental toxisity" =/= genetic.

I was asking if intelligence is genetic, not if you can fuck up an infant's brain.

[Cain]

I can fuck up an infants brain

Just play this to them on constant loop from about the age of 3 months onwards.

[Triple Zero]

the cool stupid people usually have some kind of thing they're not stupid at, to make up for it.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So you guys think that NOBODY is just naturally limited by natural stupidity?

I think that there are probably some hardware limitations to each individual. However, I doubt that the hardware limitations are as detrimental to the individual's ability to learn, as software limitations (environment, psychological imprinting etc).

In a separate but related question, do you only recognize defect-based forms of mental retardation?

Some of the people who are born stupid probably suffer from environmental toxicity in the womb... fetal alcohol syndrome is common, for instance. Do you not believe that brain damage from fetal alcohol syndrome or oxygen deprivation or other parthenogens could result in irrecoverable stupidity?

Retardation, in my view, is a statement that something has gone wrong and slowed/decreased/harmed the functionality of the individuals brain at some physical level. Maybe due to disease, womb environment (eating lead?) or physical environment (see Wild Children, the movie 'Nell', some of the kids I've tried to teach to read). Doesn't matter if its genetic, due to a car accident, due to huffing gasoline or due to having idiot redneck parents that think their child "shouldn't read more better than them".

I said that most people could do better, but some people have the misfortune to be born stupid. Hence my choice to have compassion. Are you seriously arguing that NO ONE is born stupid, and therefore there is no reason behind such a compassion?

I'm not saying that.

Clinically, "Mental Retardation" has a cutoff line, above which people who are unfortunate are still limited, but do not qualify as disabled. Mental ability exists in a spectrum. Some of the people are near one edge of the spectrum, some are near the other edges, some people are nearer the center. Some of the people are not limited enough to be defined as retarded, but they are pretty close. I don't like retarded people, but I do feel sorry for them.

"The most thoroughly and relentlessly Damned, banned, excluded, condemned, forbidden, ostracized, ignore, suppressed, repressed, robbed, brutalized and defamed of all Damned Things is the individual human being. The social engineers, statistician, psychologist, sociologists, market researchers, landlords, bureaucrats, captains of industry, bankers, governors, commissars, kings and presidents are perpetually forcing this Damned Thing into carefully prepared blueprints and perpetually irritated that the Damned Thing will not fit into the slot assigned it. The theologians call it a sinner and try to reform it. The governor calls it a criminal and tries to punish it. the psychologist calls it a neurotic and tries to cure it. Still, the Damned Thing will not fit into their slots. " - Hagbard Celine

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

"environmental toxisity" =/= genetic.

I was asking if intelligence is genetic, not if you can fuck up an infant's brain.

And I said that I don't know, but that it's probably a combination of genes and environment. Being born stupid isn't necessarily the result of genetics.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am not replying to anything else tonight because I don't have time. Perhaps tomorrow.

[LMNO]

At the risk of sounding concillatory, perhaps you can agree to the statement, "Some people are born with brains that for some reason do not function as well as others."


In this way, we aren't talking about intelligence, we're talking about the hardware potential.

We can also separate the people who are stupid because of physical means, and people who are stupid because of psychological means.


Now, I don't think either of us has a way of saying what percentage of people have poorly functioning hardware, but I would hazard that it is far less than the amount of people who believe the ads on TV.

Which is what we were talking about in the first place.

[East Coast Hustle]

fuck stupid people.

srsly, get them the fuck off of my rock.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

At the risk of sounding concillatory, perhaps you can agree to the statement, "Some people are born with brains that for some reason do not function as well as others."


In this way, we aren't talking about intelligence, we're talking about the hardware potential.

We can also separate the people who are stupid because of physical means, and people who are stupid because of psychological means.


Now, I don't think either of us has a way of saying what percentage of people have poorly functioning hardware, but I would hazard that it is far less than the amount of people who believe the ads on TV.

Which is what we were talking about in the first place.

There seem to be many layers of Stupid though. Stupid, in the sense that some hardware has malfunctioned (in the womb, after getting dropped on ones head, or after huffing Jenkem); Stupid in the sense that they are illiterate, uninformed, or maybe superstitious; Stupid in the sense that they have a different set of knowledge than society in general (like that TV is full of manipulative ads, designed to psychologically affect your perception of reality)... that is, they may be able to skin a deer, run a trot line, create beautiful wood furniture, know every local plant and critter, what's good to eat, what's good for medicine etc. Yet, if we drop that person in a city, they might be considered a royal idiot (particularly if the latter two forms of Stupid are combined as often seems to be the case in Rural US). Then of course there's the Stupid that comes from being lazy and not having any concern for  learning; the Stupid that comes from thinking you aren't Stupid (see FSM) and the Stupid that comes from having no program/training which discusses cause and effect, responsibility or consequences. I'm sure there are lots more possibilities for Stupid...

I think, though, that this covers some instances of dumb from the womb and many instances of stupid by virtue of programming. We also have some instances where 'Stupid' may be a social statement where only some kinds of knowledge are considered 'smart'.

maybe?

[LMNO]

There seem to be many layers of Stupid though. Stupid, in the sense that some hardware has malfunctioned (in the womb, after getting dropped on ones head, or after huffing Jenkem);

This is one kind of stupid.

Stupid in the sense that they are illiterate, uninformed, or maybe superstitious; Stupid in the sense that they have a different set of knowledge than society in general. Then of course there's the Stupid that comes from being lazy and not having any concern for  learning; the Stupid that comes from thinking you aren't Stupid (see FSM) and the Stupid that comes from having no program/training which discusses cause and effect, responsibility or consequences. I'm sure there are lots more possibilities for Stupid...

This is another kind of stupid.


Yes, I'm only giving two options.


In one kind of stupid, you will never get smarter, no matter how hard you try, because you are actually physically limited by your hardware.

In the other kind, you have the potential to become smarter in anything, if you decide to (not that it's in any way easy, but that's not the point).