REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

All I know is that they arrested a man here for buying an extra package of sudafed to take to camp with him.  The extra pack put them over the limit.  Despite common sense, the man was arrested and arraigned.

Welcome to the land of the free, the home of the brave and the trashcan of a million screaming noses.

[AFK]

There will always be instances where enforcement goes too far, but that is the case with any policy, ordinance, or law.  But I absolutely reject the idea that it is the norm and that the escalation of meth use is to be put squarely on the shoulders of law enforcement and prisons. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

There will always be instances where enforcement goes too far, but that is the case with any policy, ordinance, or law.  But I absolutely reject the idea that it is the norm and that the escalation of meth use is to be put squarely on the shoulders of law enforcement and prisons. 

The "going too far" bit is hardwired into the law, here.  It is in fact the norm.  If your household uses too much sudafed - even if you can prove you were doing so legally and within the suggested usage of the drug - the person who bought the overage goes to jail.

[Cain]

If police associations lobbied for the law or supported it, then they are, even in a small way, responsible for its failings and the continued growth of meth.  They chose a strategy which didn't work and I'm sure if they had asked a couple of criminologists and practising prosecutors, would've known didn't work.  In the good old days, in the military, we used to hang people for failures like that.  Not that it really helped any (the command also, amusingly, chose the wrong strategy) but it did stop the same gang of idiots making the same mistakes over and over again.

[Disco Pickle]

It's perfectly ok to potentially incarcerate and ruin the lives of otherwise law abiding citizens as long as we're able to catch the real criminals and force them to find black market solutions to people's addictions.

Because prohibiting drugs has always made them harder to get your hands on.

right?

"We're making a better world.  All of them.  Better worlds."

[AFK]

If police associations lobbied for the law or supported it, then they are, even in a small way, responsible for its failings and the continued growth of meth.  They chose a strategy which didn't work and I'm sure if they had asked a couple of criminologists and practising prosecutors, would've known didn't work.  In the good old days, in the military, we used to hang people for failures like that.  Not that it really helped any (the command also, amusingly, chose the wrong strategy) but it did stop the same gang of idiots making the same mistakes over and over again.

Yes, if.  I'm not aware of any police unions doing so, and it certainly didn't happen in my state.  Putting cold medicines behind the counter was a good faith effort to keep people from establishing DIY meth labs.  It really wasn't as much intended to trip up or combat big time criminal organizations or meth operations.  And as noted in what Telarus posted, there are other factors in the rise of meth and a significant source is the stuff coming from Mexico. 

I'm all for re-examining policies to see what can be done differently, but I just don't like the blame game especially when it is based in an emotional culture of distrust for law enforcement and not hard-linked facts. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm all for re-examining policies to see what can be done differently, but I just don't like the blame game especially when it is based in an emotional culture of distrust for law enforcement and not hard-linked facts. 

The guy was arrested.  That's a hard-linked fact.

[AFK]

Yes, and as I said there will be cases where it goes too far but that is different then a general, blanket indictment of law enforcement such as the one Telarus made. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yes, and as I said there will be cases where it goes too far but that is different then a general, blanket indictment of law enforcement such as the one Telarus made. 

It can be difficult to remain objective in the face of a minority that are always in the spotlight. I know some cops that are good people, that just want to help (first hand). I know some cops that confiscate pot and don't charge the person (first hand). I know some cops that take the confiscated pot to strip clubs and trade it for lap dances (second hand)... and I know some cops that are complete and utter assholes (first hand, second hand, third hand).

Even though I KNOW good cops, when shit happens I find myself throwing them all in a lump. Its not fair, but its human.

[Epimetheus]

Despite common sense

Ah. No such thing, nowadays.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yes, and as I said there will be cases where it goes too far but that is different then a general, blanket indictment of law enforcement such as the one Telarus made. 

It can be difficult to remain objective in the face of a minority that are always in the spotlight. I know some cops that are good people, that just want to help (first hand). I know some cops that confiscate pot and don't charge the person (first hand). I know some cops that take the confiscated pot to strip clubs and trade it for lap dances (second hand)... and I know some cops that are complete and utter assholes (first hand, second hand, third hand).

Even though I KNOW good cops, when shit happens I find myself throwing them all in a lump. Its not fair, but its human.

I don't know any good cops.  Not one.  Well, one detective, but he's become a drunk.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yes, and as I said there will be cases where it goes too far but that is different then a general, blanket indictment of law enforcement such as the one Telarus made. 

It can be difficult to remain objective in the face of a minority that are always in the spotlight. I know some cops that are good people, that just want to help (first hand). I know some cops that confiscate pot and don't charge the person (first hand). I know some cops that take the confiscated pot to strip clubs and trade it for lap dances (second hand)... and I know some cops that are complete and utter assholes (first hand, second hand, third hand).

Even though I KNOW good cops, when shit happens I find myself throwing them all in a lump. Its not fair, but its human.

I don't know any good cops.  Not one.  Well, one detective, but he's become a drunk.

Well, you live in Arizona... I think there's only about 23 good 'people' in Arizona. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yes, and as I said there will be cases where it goes too far but that is different then a general, blanket indictment of law enforcement such as the one Telarus made. 

It can be difficult to remain objective in the face of a minority that are always in the spotlight. I know some cops that are good people, that just want to help (first hand). I know some cops that confiscate pot and don't charge the person (first hand). I know some cops that take the confiscated pot to strip clubs and trade it for lap dances (second hand)... and I know some cops that are complete and utter assholes (first hand, second hand, third hand).

Even though I KNOW good cops, when shit happens I find myself throwing them all in a lump. Its not fair, but its human.

I don't know any good cops.  Not one.  Well, one detective, but he's become a drunk.

Well, you live in Arizona... I think there's only about 23 good 'people' in Arizona. 

Also, my cousins who are cops in Peel County, Ontario, and in the OPP.  They are cunts, one and all, and shouldn't be trusted with enough power to go to the bathroom themselves, let alone carry a gun.

[Telarus]

Just want to point out that the article was reasonable and balanced until the bolded sentence, which, is 100% horseshit.  The reasons to put cold medicines behind the counter were many but I can tell you that one of them was NOT to pad the bank accounts of wardens and police chiefs.  It was partly in response to kids and others getting recipes to make meth off the internet, getting the stuff at the pharmacy, and making small batches of meth for personal use/experimentation at home.  As with any policy, there is never 100% guarantee it will have the impact you hope for.  So obviously, those who make the policies need to take this data and information into account and adjust.  

But it really is disgusting to me, as someone who works shoulder to shoulder with people in law enforcement, to take this and turn it on law enforcement officials and blame them.  

I agree with you. The bolded part was from the Boing Boing post (not my statement as Tosk had suggested), and it set off my bias alarm. Which is why I tracked down the original article ( http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_drug_war_tracking_meth ), but the bias is there too (just in this case, pro-LE glossing over of facts), which makes the Boing Boing bias reactionary (not excusable, but more understandable).

But, whatever the opinions, the fact remains that this law CREATED a new 'sub-criminal' black market, which drove up meth use and caught up more people in the prison-for-profit system. The yahoo article I cited directly compares this to Oregon's success (we made pseudo-effedrine prescription only, to the wailing and nashing of teeth of multi-national drug companies).

So, we have 2 models enacted in similar cultures with 2 distinct results. One pandered to the multinational drug companies and increased use and societal involvement in the meth trade, the other did not. The results really speak for themselves.

:Edit: I also have a 'real human' point of contact with LEOs. My martial arts Sensei is a local county Deputy.

[AFK]

Other factors are at play, too, such as meth trafficking by Mexican cartels and new methods for making small amounts of meth.

Given the other factors, and the Mexican cartels are a significant factor and contributor to the meth trade in America, I argue that one cannot definitively state the cause in the increase of meth busts and meth use is due to the cited policy.