Excuse me while I vomit.- Trigger Warning for Rape and Rape Culture.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

LMNO was pretty right but I'm talkIng about the men not the material. I only know what was said in The Game but I'm not familiar with anything since. The most unpleasant things I recall we're negging and basically sulking until she gives in and fucks you. Now, they're both pathetic but in a legal sense, I'm really really not convinced they're rape. I'm not about to try to say they're ethical though (they're not.)

I think most men who jump into it are guys who just want to know how to get laid and have no confidence or social skills. I think by far the majority want to be desired, not to force a woman into something she doesn't want.

Rat made some good points about deception.

There is a law in America I believe which outlines 'Rape by Deception.' I think specifically it refers to passing yourself off as another (real) person.

In Aus there was a test case "I'll have sex with you in you send me red roses (it was like, 100 or something). No roses, and pretty certain courts said no rape.

What do you think of the Assange case? Conscent IF a condom is worn followed by a rapid 'oops it magically fell off.'

Really, if every man who wasn't actually a wealthy playboy astronaught the morning after was a rapist, the rape statistics would be unfuckingimaginable.

Also are we all talking about Consent at a legal level? Or just in the common use of the word? Is there a difference?


Also as far as the 'skill' thing goes, I agree with Blackfoot just in that social skills are just that, 'skills.' Talking to people I don't intuitively click with (small town, have to do that a fair bit, can't just make friends with people like me cos they're pretty limited) so I've had to learn how to do the social thing.

Holy crap, this post speaks volumes about your level of fucked-upness in terms of the way you view women. I bet you don't think of yourself as a misogynist, either.

That's really hurtful, actually. Sorry to be a sook, and I know this is the Internet and all but, 1, I actually really value your opinion Nigel on most things and, 2, personally respect for women and equality between genders is extremely important to me on a fairly fundamental level.

This probably isn't going to shock anyone on PDcom but I do seem to word things rather badly at times, to the point of misrepresenting my views. To put it in really clear term; I find it hard to believe that one person lying to another (in the sense that they misrepresent themselves to make themselves look better, smarter, richer, kinder, more successfull etc) is rape. Now if I'm wrong, correct me. I'm ok with being wrong and being corrected.

I feel I may have implied that women only want to be with men for their money and success and are superficially satisfied with any partner if they're wealthy and successful. If so, I apologise, it's not what I believe.

If there's something else I'm implying please let me know because the honest truth is I like women (or anyway I generally like people) and believe very strongly in equality and I identify as a feminist, so if I'm sending off mysogynist vibes I'd appreciate knowing how so so I can cut that shit out.

OK, I will accept that what you said was just horrendously poor wording. I found it rather shocking, and would rather not believe that's the way you think, so I'm relieved to hear that.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't know. At the very least you were manipulated by an asshole.

So if you say no and resist, but don't scream or struggle because you're afraid of getting hurt, it's not rape?

No, that's not what I said. I said I don't know if a guy being pushy is rape. If he implies violence in any way, that's rape. If he doesn't he may just be really horny and not have respect or understanding for boundaries. If the woman Cleary says NO and pushes him away and he continues... That close enough to rape for my thinking. If she just kinda whines that she's tired but continues making out... I dunno. Maybe it just depends on how the woman feels afterward, if its rape in her mind  I wouldn't disagree.

Is that the scenario I described in my example?

[Placid Dingo]

LMNO was pretty right but I'm talkIng about the men not the material. I only know what was said in The Game but I'm not familiar with anything since. The most unpleasant things I recall we're negging and basically sulking until she gives in and fucks you. Now, they're both pathetic but in a legal sense, I'm really really not convinced they're rape. I'm not about to try to say they're ethical though (they're not.)

I think most men who jump into it are guys who just want to know how to get laid and have no confidence or social skills. I think by far the majority want to be desired, not to force a woman into something she doesn't want.

Rat made some good points about deception.

There is a law in America I believe which outlines 'Rape by Deception.' I think specifically it refers to passing yourself off as another (real) person.

In Aus there was a test case "I'll have sex with you in you send me red roses (it was like, 100 or something). No roses, and pretty certain courts said no rape.

What do you think of the Assange case? Conscent IF a condom is worn followed by a rapid 'oops it magically fell off.'

Really, if every man who wasn't actually a wealthy playboy astronaught the morning after was a rapist, the rape statistics would be unfuckingimaginable.

Also are we all talking about Consent at a legal level? Or just in the common use of the word? Is there a difference?


Also as far as the 'skill' thing goes, I agree with Blackfoot just in that social skills are just that, 'skills.' Talking to people I don't intuitively click with (small town, have to do that a fair bit, can't just make friends with people like me cos they're pretty limited) so I've had to learn how to do the social thing.

Holy crap, this post speaks volumes about your level of fucked-upness in terms of the way you view women. I bet you don't think of yourself as a misogynist, either.

That's really hurtful, actually. Sorry to be a sook, and I know this is the Internet and all but, 1, I actually really value your opinion Nigel on most things and, 2, personally respect for women and equality between genders is extremely important to me on a fairly fundamental level.

This probably isn't going to shock anyone on PDcom but I do seem to word things rather badly at times, to the point of misrepresenting my views. To put it in really clear term; I find it hard to believe that one person lying to another (in the sense that they misrepresent themselves to make themselves look better, smarter, richer, kinder, more successfull etc) is rape. Now if I'm wrong, correct me. I'm ok with being wrong and being corrected.

I feel I may have implied that women only want to be with men for their money and success and are superficially satisfied with any partner if they're wealthy and successful. If so, I apologise, it's not what I believe.

If there's something else I'm implying please let me know because the honest truth is I like women (or anyway I generally like people) and believe very strongly in equality and I identify as a feminist, so if I'm sending off mysogynist vibes I'd appreciate knowing how so so I can cut that shit out.

OK, I will accept that what you said was just horrendously poor wording. I found it rather shocking, and would rather not believe that's the way you think, so I'm relieved to hear that.

Alright, thanks. Not expressing things in hidiously mangled ways that start twelve page arguments is going to be my PD focus for the next few week all time.

[Placid Dingo]

No kidding, Rat.

I don't know. At the very least you were manipulated by an asshole.

So if you say no and resist, but don't scream or struggle because you're afraid of getting hurt, it's not rape?

No, that's not what I said. I said I don't know if a guy being pushy is rape. If he implies violence in any way, that's rape. If he doesn't he may just be really horny and not have respect or understanding for boundaries. If the woman Cleary says NO and pushes him away and he continues... That close enough to rape for my thinking. If she just kinda whines that she's tired but continues making out... I dunno. Maybe it just depends on how the woman feels afterward, if its rape in her mind  I wouldn't disagree.

If he keeps pushing, the question for her becomes, "what will he do if I keep saying no?" He doesn't need to be overt in implying violence.

This.

One thing that I think a lot of guys don't think about, and probably don't want to think about, is that we are afraid of you. Categorically, not personally. We are afraid, and with good reason. This is not an irrational fear; this is a simple reality of survival and self-preservation. PUA techniques train men to exploit that fear by pushing boundaries, rather than engaging in courtship, a process which builds trust.

The reason the absence of yes means no is because of this fear. If you just met a woman and don't yet know her enough for her to have built up the level of trust to trust that you WON'T hurt her if she struggles, if you have sex with her despite what you are choosing to perceive as ambivalence, yes, it could very well be rape. The odds of her letting you kiss her at the end of the evening just to be polite are higher than you might guess, and the odds of her not knowing how to put up a fight or being afraid to seem rude, skyrocket if she's ever been previously raped or abused. It's simple self-preservation; "this one seems pushy, better to just let him do it than get the shit beat out of me again".

Pushing the blame for this onto the woman is bullshit, simply because the reason this happens in the first place is because of the power imbalance. If men were, categorically speaking, afraid that women would physically hurt them, reluctant men might more often succumb to sex with a pushy woman, and that, too, would be rape.

The bottom line; if she's not on board, back off. You can court her until she is on board, but pushing her boundaries and ignoring her protests is not unlikely to result in rape, whether you think it is or not.

The amazing thing is how many of these guys don't understand why a woman they had sex with, or made out with, won't return their phone calls. They just don't hear "no".

THIS is the sort of thing that I think I've really only ever heard here. It's the kind of thing that isn't really discussed, and is a good example of what NEEDS to be.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

All you need to do is spell it out:  "Pick up artist".

There are no "good and true" PUAs, because the very idea of what they do is dehumanizing.  It's not just the actions (negging, etc), but the motivation behind the "artistry".

If you're out looking to get laid, fine.

How do you speak these two sentences in a row?  Being a "good" pickup artist would be, not sucking at it and doing it in an ethical manner.  Such people do exist.  Just because you're hung up on this label doesn't mean that people like i have described do not exist.

And people choose to have sex with others for a variety of reasons.  Either healthy or not.  Having sex because you enjoy it and because you want to is probably among the healthiest reasons.  I'm concerned with how the woman leaves the affair.  No damage or better for it. That's what is ideal.  Furthermore, you can have sex with someone for all the right reasons and throw their identity into question causing them to ask hard questions of themselves.  Is this your fault if they have baggage they need to deal with before they can have healthy sexual relationships and you didn't realize it?  How you handle it is what it matters.

If you're out looking for a companion, great.  If you're out looking to SCORE WITH HOT WOMEN regardless of methodology, as an ego thing, then you're a bit of a shit.

And the very title "pick up artist" implies the latter.  And the methodology in the subculture is vile.

No one is talking about defending what you think a pickup artist is.  If someone is great with women in the way an artist is great at what he does and in a positive way that's not inherently wrong.  A magician who pokes you in the eye and runs off with your money is hardly an artist, even if he'd like to call himself one.

Let's try it from this angle, shall we?

Non-rapey, non-proto-rapey guy goes about his normal business. He hopes to get laid but does not employ "techniques". Talks casually to everybody about whatever is going on. Some of these people are women. Some of these women seem to be sending signals that YES THEY WOULDN'T MIND FUCKING THIS GUY. Guy asks for phone numbers and often gets them. If he doesn't, NO HARM DONE HE DIDN'T FUCK THEM. Guy calls a few days later. Hangs out, talks. Kissing and stuff at some point and then "Hey you want to mess around?" or something of that nature. By then, it usually happens. If not, NO HARM DONE, HE DIDN'T FUCK THEM. And guess what? He doesn't stop talking to them if he can't get his dick wet after all (or if he does), BECAUSE HE SAW THEM AS PEOPLE TO BEGIN WITH.

Is not a "billionaire astronaut". Has not misrepresented his job or income.

Is "great with women in the way an artist is great at what he does and in a positive way that's not inherently wrong". Might have LOTS of girlfriends, if that's what he's into, if not, he has no problem getting a regular girlfriend. Being "great with women" requires actually LIKING them. We can tell.

DOES NOT EMPLOY CREEPY PROTO-RAPEY PUA TECHNIQUES.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I also want to point out that ignoring/pushing past a woman's objections is already, in itself, an implication of violence. By doing so, a man is sending the clear message that what she wants doesn't count.

If I make out with someone who does that, even if it's someone I've known for years, that sets off the fear, because he's clearly not thinking of me as a human being with my own set of desires and motivations. And most rapists ARE someone the victim knows, often very well.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

LMNO was pretty right but I'm talkIng about the men not the material. I only know what was said in The Game but I'm not familiar with anything since. The most unpleasant things I recall we're negging and basically sulking until she gives in and fucks you. Now, they're both pathetic but in a legal sense, I'm really really not convinced they're rape. I'm not about to try to say they're ethical though (they're not.)

I think most men who jump into it are guys who just want to know how to get laid and have no confidence or social skills. I think by far the majority want to be desired, not to force a woman into something she doesn't want.

Rat made some good points about deception.

There is a law in America I believe which outlines 'Rape by Deception.' I think specifically it refers to passing yourself off as another (real) person.

In Aus there was a test case "I'll have sex with you in you send me red roses (it was like, 100 or something). No roses, and pretty certain courts said no rape.

What do you think of the Assange case? Conscent IF a condom is worn followed by a rapid 'oops it magically fell off.'

Really, if every man who wasn't actually a wealthy playboy astronaught the morning after was a rapist, the rape statistics would be unfuckingimaginable.

Also are we all talking about Consent at a legal level? Or just in the common use of the word? Is there a difference?


Also as far as the 'skill' thing goes, I agree with Blackfoot just in that social skills are just that, 'skills.' Talking to people I don't intuitively click with (small town, have to do that a fair bit, can't just make friends with people like me cos they're pretty limited) so I've had to learn how to do the social thing.

Holy crap, this post speaks volumes about your level of fucked-upness in terms of the way you view women. I bet you don't think of yourself as a misogynist, either.

That's really hurtful, actually. Sorry to be a sook, and I know this is the Internet and all but, 1, I actually really value your opinion Nigel on most things and, 2, personally respect for women and equality between genders is extremely important to me on a fairly fundamental level.

This probably isn't going to shock anyone on PDcom but I do seem to word things rather badly at times, to the point of misrepresenting my views. To put it in really clear term; I find it hard to believe that one person lying to another (in the sense that they misrepresent themselves to make themselves look better, smarter, richer, kinder, more successfull etc) is rape. Now if I'm wrong, correct me. I'm ok with being wrong and being corrected.

I feel I may have implied that women only want to be with men for their money and success and are superficially satisfied with any partner if they're wealthy and successful. If so, I apologise, it's not what I believe.

If there's something else I'm implying please let me know because the honest truth is I like women (or anyway I generally like people) and believe very strongly in equality and I identify as a feminist, so if I'm sending off mysogynist vibes I'd appreciate knowing how so so I can cut that shit out.

OK, I will accept that what you said was just horrendously poor wording. I found it rather shocking, and would rather not believe that's the way you think, so I'm relieved to hear that.

Alright, thanks. Not expressing things in hidiously mangled ways that start twelve page arguments is going to be my PD focus for the next few week all time.

This place is good for making people be better human beings, in various ways, including communication. It's done wonders for me.

[Juana]

I also want to point out that ignoring/pushing past a woman's objections is already, in itself, an implication of violence. By doing so, a man is sending the clear message that what she wants doesn't count.

If I make out with someone who does that, even if it's someone I've known for years, that sets off the fear, because he's clearly not thinking of me as a human being with my own set of desires and motivations. And most rapists ARE someone the victim knows, often very well.

^^^ That.


It's not discussed because we're told we're "overreacting" when we do. Men, ime/o, tend to say things to the effect of "I would never hurt you/a woman/female!" Sure. You mightn't. But that doesn't change the fact that we have to spend our entire lives looking over our shoulders.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

No kidding, Rat.

I don't know. At the very least you were manipulated by an asshole.

So if you say no and resist, but don't scream or struggle because you're afraid of getting hurt, it's not rape?

No, that's not what I said. I said I don't know if a guy being pushy is rape. If he implies violence in any way, that's rape. If he doesn't he may just be really horny and not have respect or understanding for boundaries. If the woman Cleary says NO and pushes him away and he continues... That close enough to rape for my thinking. If she just kinda whines that she's tired but continues making out... I dunno. Maybe it just depends on how the woman feels afterward, if its rape in her mind  I wouldn't disagree.

If he keeps pushing, the question for her becomes, "what will he do if I keep saying no?" He doesn't need to be overt in implying violence.

This.

One thing that I think a lot of guys don't think about, and probably don't want to think about, is that we are afraid of you. Categorically, not personally. We are afraid, and with good reason. This is not an irrational fear; this is a simple reality of survival and self-preservation. PUA techniques train men to exploit that fear by pushing boundaries, rather than engaging in courtship, a process which builds trust.

The reason the absence of yes means no is because of this fear. If you just met a woman and don't yet know her enough for her to have built up the level of trust to trust that you WON'T hurt her if she struggles, if you have sex with her despite what you are choosing to perceive as ambivalence, yes, it could very well be rape. The odds of her letting you kiss her at the end of the evening just to be polite are higher than you might guess, and the odds of her not knowing how to put up a fight or being afraid to seem rude, skyrocket if she's ever been previously raped or abused. It's simple self-preservation; "this one seems pushy, better to just let him do it than get the shit beat out of me again".

Pushing the blame for this onto the woman is bullshit, simply because the reason this happens in the first place is because of the power imbalance. If men were, categorically speaking, afraid that women would physically hurt them, reluctant men might more often succumb to sex with a pushy woman, and that, too, would be rape.

The bottom line; if she's not on board, back off. You can court her until she is on board, but pushing her boundaries and ignoring her protests is not unlikely to result in rape, whether you think it is or not.

The amazing thing is how many of these guys don't understand why a woman they had sex with, or made out with, won't return their phone calls. They just don't hear "no".

THIS is the sort of thing that I think I've really only ever heard here. It's the kind of thing that isn't really discussed, and is a good example of what NEEDS to be.

A lot of women still think it's "not nice" to be assertive.

[Juana]

^^ And also that. Women are trained from a very early age to be pleasing to others and that means putting ourselves in the backseat a lot of the time.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

No kidding, Rat.

I don't know. At the very least you were manipulated by an asshole.

So if you say no and resist, but don't scream or struggle because you're afraid of getting hurt, it's not rape?

No, that's not what I said. I said I don't know if a guy being pushy is rape. If he implies violence in any way, that's rape. If he doesn't he may just be really horny and not have respect or understanding for boundaries. If the woman Cleary says NO and pushes him away and he continues... That close enough to rape for my thinking. If she just kinda whines that she's tired but continues making out... I dunno. Maybe it just depends on how the woman feels afterward, if its rape in her mind  I wouldn't disagree.

If he keeps pushing, the question for her becomes, "what will he do if I keep saying no?" He doesn't need to be overt in implying violence.

This.

One thing that I think a lot of guys don't think about, and probably don't want to think about, is that we are afraid of you. Categorically, not personally. We are afraid, and with good reason. This is not an irrational fear; this is a simple reality of survival and self-preservation. PUA techniques train men to exploit that fear by pushing boundaries, rather than engaging in courtship, a process which builds trust.

The reason the absence of yes means no is because of this fear. If you just met a woman and don't yet know her enough for her to have built up the level of trust to trust that you WON'T hurt her if she struggles, if you have sex with her despite what you are choosing to perceive as ambivalence, yes, it could very well be rape. The odds of her letting you kiss her at the end of the evening just to be polite are higher than you might guess, and the odds of her not knowing how to put up a fight or being afraid to seem rude, skyrocket if she's ever been previously raped or abused. It's simple self-preservation; "this one seems pushy, better to just let him do it than get the shit beat out of me again".

Pushing the blame for this onto the woman is bullshit, simply because the reason this happens in the first place is because of the power imbalance. If men were, categorically speaking, afraid that women would physically hurt them, reluctant men might more often succumb to sex with a pushy woman, and that, too, would be rape.

The bottom line; if she's not on board, back off. You can court her until she is on board, but pushing her boundaries and ignoring her protests is not unlikely to result in rape, whether you think it is or not.

The amazing thing is how many of these guys don't understand why a woman they had sex with, or made out with, won't return their phone calls. They just don't hear "no".

THIS is the sort of thing that I think I've really only ever heard here. It's the kind of thing that isn't really discussed, and is a good example of what NEEDS to be.

Thanks... I've been trying to get to the heart of what I guess I think of as "run of the mill" rape for a while now, and I think that the dismal truth of it is that it's vastly more influenced by ignorance and privilege than most people think it is. Only certain types of rape are reported or make the news, and they aren't the typical rapes, which are the ones where the woman says "no", or "not tonight", or "I really have to go" and the man just keeps on pushing because she's not hitting or screaming, so it must be OK.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Those are all excellent and eloquent points. It's clarified the argument succinctly for me. Thanks.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

^^ And also that. Women are trained from a very early age to be pleasing to others and that means putting ourselves in the backseat a lot of the time.

Yeah. Until they don't KNOW anything else. Like some anachronistic Jane Austen character who's expected to always be "amiable". I've known a lot of women who had no trouble with passive-aggressive snarking and cattiness, but when it comes time to put their foot down, they just can't. It's "not nice". 

[Pope Lecherous]

Let's try it from this angle, shall we?

Non-rapey, non-proto-rapey guy goes about his normal business. He hopes to get laid but does not employ "techniques". Talks casually to everybody about whatever is going on. Some of these people are women. Some of these women seem to be sending signals that YES THEY WOULDN'T MIND FUCKING THIS GUY. Guy asks for phone numbers and often gets them. If he doesn't, NO HARM DONE HE DIDN'T FUCK THEM. Guy calls a few days later. Hangs out, talks. Kissing and stuff at some point and then "Hey you want to mess around?" or something of that nature. By then, it usually happens. If not, NO HARM DONE, HE DIDN'T FUCK THEM. And guess what? He doesn't stop talking to them if he can't get his dick wet after all (or if he does), BECAUSE HE SAW THEM AS PEOPLE TO BEGIN WITH.

Is not a "billionaire astronaut". Has not misrepresented his job or income.

Is "great with women in the way an artist is great at what he does and in a positive way that's not inherently wrong". Might have LOTS of girlfriends, if that's what he's into, if not, he has no problem getting a regular girlfriend. Being "great with women" requires actually LIKING them. We can tell.

DOES NOT EMPLOY CREEPY PROTO-RAPEY PUA TECHNIQUES.

Yea.  What's wrong with that?  This can happen in the course of one night as well without forcing someone out of their comfort zone.  If you took two guys who were roughly equivalent financially and in the looks department, but one of them couldn't hold his own in the conversation and the other had the eye of all the women and the respect of the dudes as well does this make him a bad guy?  Of course not.  If he could accomplish this easily in most social situations does this make him wrong? It's a skill he has.  That's why i brought up the levels of mastery.

I don't know if you were asking a question or 

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Let's try it from this angle, shall we?

Non-rapey, non-proto-rapey guy goes about his normal business. He hopes to get laid but does not employ "techniques". Talks casually to everybody about whatever is going on. Some of these people are women. Some of these women seem to be sending signals that YES THEY WOULDN'T MIND FUCKING THIS GUY. Guy asks for phone numbers and often gets them. If he doesn't, NO HARM DONE HE DIDN'T FUCK THEM. Guy calls a few days later. Hangs out, talks. Kissing and stuff at some point and then "Hey you want to mess around?" or something of that nature. By then, it usually happens. If not, NO HARM DONE, HE DIDN'T FUCK THEM. And guess what? He doesn't stop talking to them if he can't get his dick wet after all (or if he does), BECAUSE HE SAW THEM AS PEOPLE TO BEGIN WITH.

Is not a "billionaire astronaut". Has not misrepresented his job or income.

Is "great with women in the way an artist is great at what he does and in a positive way that's not inherently wrong". Might have LOTS of girlfriends, if that's what he's into, if not, he has no problem getting a regular girlfriend. Being "great with women" requires actually LIKING them. We can tell.

DOES NOT EMPLOY CREEPY PROTO-RAPEY PUA TECHNIQUES.

Yea.  What's wrong with that? 

Nothing's wrong with it. I was seeing examples of what not to do, so I posted what to do.

This can happen in the course of one night as well without forcing someone out of their comfort zone.

Yes, it can. And if it's really consensual, great.
Believe it or not, a lot of GUYS like to wait a little while and make sure a woman isn't an opportunist or a psycho stalker first, but it's not mandatory and doesn't make you a PUA if you don't.

If you took two guys who were roughly equivalent financially and in the looks department, but one of them couldn't hold his own in the conversation and the other had the eye of all the women and the respect of the dudes as well does this make him a bad guy?  Of course not.  If he could accomplish this easily in most social situations does this make him wrong? It's a skill he has.  That's why i brought up the levels of mastery.

That sounds like social skills, not some slimey PUA "mastery". There's also the possibility that these people actually know him, and he's EARNED the respect and attention.

I don't know if you were asking a question or 

Not at all. Just saying you can get more ass than a toilet seat if that's your thing, and NOT be a PUA.