How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[P3nT4gR4m]

A typical male reply would be:
Take some self-defence classes.
or
Learn to handle a knife.

The attitude that it's okay for men to be assholes, women just need to learn how deal with it and, if necessary, defend themselves is part of the problem, not a solution.

My attitude is that it's not okay for men to be assholes. It's not okay for women to be assholes either but, a lot of them (men and women) are. I advocate learning to deal with it. the alternatives would seem to be either, stay at home and never go outside or something about it shouldn't be this way and sucks and nobody understands and we all need to talk about it and shit.

Actually, that last one isn't a solution but it's a depressingly common one despite that.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Nigel is bang on about what I was talking about, Epi.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

Oh, well if you say it's not relevant to feminism...

Um.

I'm fucking done here.  We've already had this conversation 3 times.

[Verbal Mike]

My attitude is that it's not okay for men to be assholes. It's not okay for women to be assholes either but, a lot of them (men and women) are. I advocate learning to deal with it. the alternatives would seem to be either, stay at home and never go outside or something about it shouldn't be this way and sucks and nobody understands and we all need to talk about it and shit.

Actually, that last one isn't a solution but it's a depressingly common one despite that.

p3nt, that's all well an good in a purely intellectual discussion, but these discussions and positions taken on them actually affect how people act and how they understand the situation. The more people put the burden on the victim to defend themselves rather than on society to try and correct the situation, well, the likelier victims are to blame themselves and for people not to feel responsible for the behavior of those around them and possibly themselves. So while your position makes sense in and of itself, its effect in discourse is detrimental.
I'm guessing this is why some people react so badly to it.

[LMNO]

The way I read the OP is that the crazy guy was a capstone. 

If you re-read the first part, she talks about how she's always hit on when she's on the subway, and gives an example of three teenage boys who not only interrupt her to hit on her, but then start taunting her when she moves away from them.  She repeats that this is a common, ubiquitous experience, and it's stressful and draining and depressing.

So when the crazy guy does his thing, sure it's crazy, but (for her) it stripped away the thin veneer of whatever civility remains, and was a crystallization of every previous experience.  This, to her, was the pure expression of a man's entitlement and hatred of a woman's empowerment.  Yes, he was crazy, but his actions were also identical to the non-crazy teens from the previous train, only even more uncensored.  So I can see, in her stressed-out mindstate, she would create a continuum between the almost-innocent pick up attempts through the more aggressive "hey girl, whachoo doin readin" all the way to the batshit insanity of crazy guy.

Because even if he's crazy, his actions were the same as the others'.

[P3nT4gR4m]

My attitude is that it's not okay for men to be assholes. It's not okay for women to be assholes either but, a lot of them (men and women) are. I advocate learning to deal with it. the alternatives would seem to be either, stay at home and never go outside or something about it shouldn't be this way and sucks and nobody understands and we all need to talk about it and shit.

Actually, that last one isn't a solution but it's a depressingly common one despite that.

p3nt, that's all well an good in a purely intellectual discussion, but these discussions and positions taken on them actually affect how people act and how they understand the situation. The more people put the burden on the victim to defend themselves rather than on society to try and correct the situation, well, the likelier victims are to blame themselves and for people not to feel responsible for the behavior of those around them and possibly themselves. So while your position makes sense in and of itself, its effect in discourse is detrimental.
I'm guessing this is why some people react so badly to it.

This bit, I think is the reason I personally react so badly to it. Because I really can't see past it being complete bullshit. But I ain't going to get a bug in my ass about it. Having intelligent discourse about whatever really doesn't have any effect on me one way or another so have at it. I'm dropping the fuck out this thread before it devolves into trolling for trolling's sake, tho.

[Placid Dingo]

In regards to people earlier in the thread wondering how you can change these things.

During the PUA OM that never really got off the ground I remember someone created a Discordian Pick Up Artist blog with the hopes that it might turn in to something in the future. Why not make a project out of infiltrating Pick Up Artistry and inserting subversive feminist memes into it?

Of course youd have to be semi-sneaky about it, instead of framing it as "this is kinda disrespectful and degrading/threatening" you frame it as "this behavior is totally hyper beta and it sends signals to the womans ovaries that you have small testicles and causes her to friendzone you" or something really asinine like that.

http://erisianarts.wordpress.com/

Mysteries company is called 'Venusian Arts', it's a parody of that.

I never did anything with it.

PM me for user name + password (or sift through O:MF)

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The way I read the OP is that the crazy guy was a capstone. 

If you re-read the first part, she talks about how she's always hit on when she's on the subway, and gives an example of three teenage boys who not only interrupt her to hit on her, but then start taunting her when she moves away from them.  She repeats that this is a common, ubiquitous experience, and it's stressful and draining and depressing.

So when the crazy guy does his thing, sure it's crazy, but (for her) it stripped away the thin veneer of whatever civility remains, and was a crystallization of every previous experience.  This, to her, was the pure expression of a man's entitlement and hatred of a woman's empowerment.  Yes, he was crazy, but his actions were also identical to the non-crazy teens from the previous train, only even more uncensored.  So I can see, in her stressed-out mindstate, she would create a continuum between the almost-innocent pick up attempts through the more aggressive "hey girl, whachoo doin readin" all the way to the batshit insanity of crazy guy.

Because even if he's crazy, his actions were the same as the others'.

Yes, pretty much completely this.

One thing I find disheartening is when the women on the forum recognize the situation as merely an extreme case of crap they experience all the time, but a guy or two HAS to announce that crazy guy is just crazy and his behavior is way off the charts and inapplicable and men get harrassed by crazy people on public transportation too. It really reinforces the feeling of being unheard AND of not being understood, because crazy bike guy's behavior is an extreme expression of something totally ordinary that we see all the time.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

And Verbl, I appreciate that you have been reading my posts. Please note that I said "I feel" and "most" and "for the most part".

I feel like ECH and Stella, among others, are ignoring my posts and replying to Garbo and SP, as if they own feminism and represent everyone, although Stella has been quoting my posts, making it even more confusing when she argues with things I didn't say.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

If you can't tell when someone would be okay with the idea of talking with you, best to give it a miss.

but

there's no crime in attempting a conversation.

???

In fact, let's just get rid of those quotes and see if it makes any more sense to you this way:

If you can't tell when someone would be okay with the idea of talking with you, best to give it a miss, but there's no crime in attempting a conversation.

I realize they can fit together.
I guess I'm looking for an explanation of the first in light of the second. Why is it best not to try a conversation, if there's nothing wrong with doing so?

I don't know if it's what Roger means, but the way I read it is that you should try to exercise normal courtesies, like trying to read body language for signs of interest, and not intruding when the other person seems uninterested. However, if you misread the situation, it's not like being a social retard is punishable by law; the worst that'll happen is that the other person will think you're rude or annoying.

Makes sense. Figured the same, but figured I'd ask, because I don't think "when in doubt, refrain from interaction" is a healthy guideline. At least not for all persons and situations.

We're not talking about all persons and situations, we're talking about hitting on total strangers on public transportation.

I think that in that particular situation, "when in doubt, refrain from interaction" is a VERY healthy guideline.

Agreed, but that detail wasn't in his post, and he was responding to posts about men talking to women, not specifically hitting on them.

How did you manage to read his post outside of the context of this thread? 

As far as "talking to" vs. "hitting on", why would you strike up a conversation with a strange girl on public transportation, and would you do it with a strange guy who was engrossed in a book? Believe me, you may think you're just "being nice" and "making conversation", but a woman is going to assume you're hitting on her, and whatever your conscious justifications for your motivation in talking to her, I suspect that 99% of the time your unconscious motivations are sex.

[Suu]

I finally read this story, because honestly the thread title didn't appeal to me.

Either the people in Los Angeles are the absolute dregs of society, which I won't argue, or this is made up. I've commuted on trains A LOT. Between Providence and Boston, and Long Island and Manhattan, even the local RIPTA buses which I take often to go to school and not ONCE has ANYONE ever tried to talk to me in a manner I felt uncomfortable with. I've worn weird ass club wear, I've worn Star Wars costumes, I've been dressed up, dressed down, reading, sleeping, staring off into space, writing, what have you, and I can't recall anyone ever hitting on me or giving me a hard time because I have tits. I get accosted more walking down the street by myself at night than I ever did using mass transit.

Again, it could be a local thing, obviously people are less social and commute A LOT here in the Northeast versus California, or she wrote this as a "WAAAAH I GET NO RESPECT BECAUSE I'M A GIRL!" No, fuck that shit. Where the FUCK is the conductor? Are those trains that understaffed? I've been on subways crowded to the point where you have no choice BUT to touch the person next to you and I've never been groped. Earbuds, woman. Instant ignore, instant ability to choke a bitch.

I do feel bad for her, but at the same time, I feel like she should be more proactive in reporting these actions to someone, and anyone reading this SHOULD be aware that this behavior may be occurring and to also do their part.

[Luna]

Two things.  First, sharing another, excellent article on the topic:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/09/07/its-really-time-for-the-harassment-to-end/

Second...  Why are folks so determined to label this a feminist issue?  It isn't...  It may very well be an issue that feminists are interested in, however, this is a "some people are assholes" issue.  Turning this into a pissing match over whether it's something that JUST happens to one group of people and not others, or whether as bad or worse things happen, too, is pretty fucking counterproductive.

[East Coast Hustle]

And Verbl, I appreciate that you have been reading my posts. Please note that I said "I feel" and "most" and "for the most part".

I feel like ECH and Stella, among others, are ignoring my posts and replying to Garbo and SP, as if they own feminism and represent everyone, although Stella has been quoting my posts, making it even more confusing when she argues with things I didn't say.

Yeah, and my apologies for that. I wasn't intentionally ignoring your points (almost all of which I either agree with or don't have an informed opinion on), I just get tunnel vision when some asshole in a uniform starts preaching at me. I think I'm'a go start my own feminism thread exploring some of my thoughts on the matter so that I won't have to worry about being an inadvertent dick in threads where some people are actually interested in a productive discussion and not just using some bullshit appeal to authority fallacy to alienate anyone whose perspective differs from theirs.

[Placid Dingo]

Is there a bit of a cultural difference thing going on too, in terms of common behavior?

I asked a female friend 'does it suck to always be approached by guys', and her reply was that most women were very very rarely approached by men (except when they're drunk, and then it does suck).

Just asking because the above seems contradicted by what's been said about women finding themselves constantly approached by men who feel entitled to attention.

[Suu]

Two things.  First, sharing another, excellent article on the topic:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/09/07/its-really-time-for-the-harassment-to-end/

Second...  Why are folks so determined to label this a feminist issue?  It isn't...  It may very well be an issue that feminists are interested in, however, this is a "some people are assholes" issue.  Turning this into a pissing match over whether it's something that JUST happens to one group of people and not others, or whether as bad or worse things happen, too, is pretty fucking counterproductive.

it's a douchebaggery issue. IMO.