QuoteOn a bustling Saturday afternoon at San Francisco's Westin St. Francis Hotel, there was a strange disturbance at the check-in counter. A seemingly innocuous gay couple had approached the front desk to inquire about checking in to the hotel. After speaking with the receptionist for moment, one of the women suddenly shouted frantically to her wife, in a voice that carried across the lobby, "Honey, I just realized we can't stay here, this hotel is under boycott!" Her partner promptly turned around and burst into song: "Oh-oh-oh-oh-NO! oh-oh-oh! We're caught in a bad hotel!"
As she sang people joined in from all over the lobby. Making their way from out of the cafe and out from every corner they gathered singing in unison. Much to the amazement of the hotel guests, a flash mob song & dance routine had began! Numbered among them was a brass band, brandishing clarinets, drums, susaphones, and giant horns, filling the ritzy lobby with sound, as dozens of dancers sang along at the top of their lungs.
The group was playing Lady Gaga's song "Bad Romance" rewritten to say, "Don't get caught in a bad hotel!" The event had been called to draw attention to to a boycott called by the workers of the hotel who are fighting to win a fair contract and affordable healthcare. Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer activists put the song and dance together as a creative way to tell the hundreds of thousands of LGBTQ people from all over the country coming to San Francisco in June for Pride to honor the worker-called boycott.
link (http://www.bilerico.com/2010/05/caught_in_a_bad_hotel_san_francisco_queers_support.php)
I just love flash mobs.
Turning life into an impromptu musical is a fantastic mindfuck. These folks win everything forever. Especially for settign up a flash mob with a brass band.
If you're keeping score at home, the queers are currently winning by 7,354 points.
Yes, yes they are.
Quote from: LMNO on May 11, 2010, 06:20:22 PM
If you're keeping score at home, the queers are currently winning by 7,354 points.
How many points do they need before they can get married and/or adopt kids?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 06:38:40 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 11, 2010, 06:20:22 PM
If you're keeping score at home, the queers are currently winning by 7,354 points.
How many points do they need before they can get married and/or adopt kids?
I know, right?
Also, courtesy of the step-monster-in-law, I've stayed there. It ain't all that...but it sure does THINK it is...
Quote from: LMNO on May 11, 2010, 06:20:22 PM
If you're keeping score at home, the queers are currently winning by 7,354 points.
But a queer still can't win American Idol no matter how much talent he has.
Please to deduct 5000 points. Thanks.
Quote from: Hawk on May 11, 2010, 07:07:30 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 11, 2010, 06:20:22 PM
If you're keeping score at home, the queers are currently winning by 7,354 points.
But a queer still can't win American Idol no matter how much talent he has.
Please to deduct 5000 points. Thanks.
no one cares about american idol lol
that's fabulous!
wait. LGBT.....Q?
when did 'Q' get added? and whats the technical distinction?
Actually, now it's LGBTQQIA.
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, and Allies.
:asplode:
when will they just switch to NS?
also, please to define the QQI section...
I'm not sure about the intersex part.
Questioning, if I understand correctly, is bisexual with a question mark. But I may be crudely oversimplifying that.
The only reason I even know the acronym is because I've partnered with LGBTQQIA serving organizations in my work.
I guess that makes me an A.
My husband's new medical software has like 6 genders in it. It is a bit mind-explodey at times, but it makes sense when he explains it.
ok. 'questioning' = bi-curious. get that.
but, what's the difference between 'queer' and 'gay'?
and wtf is intersex? is that someone who only whacks off to the intarwebs?
can they add K for 'kinky' so i can get benefits, too?
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 09:23:57 PM
ok. 'questioning' = bi-curious. get that.
but, what's the difference between 'queer' and 'gay'?
and wtf is intersex? is that someone who only whacks off to the intarwebs?
can they add K for 'kinky' so i can get benefits, too?
What benefits?
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on May 11, 2010, 09:13:18 PM
I'm not sure about the intersex part.
Questioning, if I understand correctly, is bisexual with a question mark. But I may be crudely oversimplifying that.
The only reason I even know the acronym is because I've partnered with LGBTQQIA serving organizations in my work.
I guess that makes me an A.
Thinking that I'm an A when it comes to rights, and case-by-case when it comes to individuals.
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 09:23:57 PM
but, what's the difference between 'queer' and 'gay'?
Queer was supposed to be added to deal with the proliferation of genderqueer types (cause everyone wants recognition in the title).
This apparently failed miserably.
Quote
I'm not sure about the intersex part.
Intersex=Naturally having characteristics of both sexes.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on May 11, 2010, 09:24:53 PM
What benefits?
You're saying there aren't any? what kind of union is that?
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 11, 2010, 09:30:33 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 09:23:57 PM
but, what's the difference between 'queer' and 'gay'?
Queer was supposed to be added to deal with the proliferation of genderqueer types (cause everyone wants recognition in the title).
This apparently failed miserably.
Quote
I'm not sure about the intersex part.
Intersex=Naturally having characteristics of both sexes.
what the hell is genderqueer?!
and what do you mean by characteristics? like physically? like Yul Brynner with boobs?
or you mean a man that likes to do some traditionally female tasks?
is there a wikipage to esplain all this? perhaps with example pics and diagrams?
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 09:35:08 PM
is there a wikipage to esplain all this? perhaps with example pics and diagrams?
:roll: If you had taken the trouble to Wiki it you could have answered your own - kind of offensive - question
Quote
Gender refers to the personal inner-sex identity of an individual, irrespective of his or her outer sex, which is determined by his/her/hir sexual organs
/queer stick up ass
and you want pictures - fuck it man find your own damn porn :wink:
Quote from: MMIX on May 11, 2010, 09:46:10 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 09:35:08 PM
is there a wikipage to esplain all this? perhaps with example pics and diagrams?
:roll: If you had taken the trouble to Wiki it you could have answered your own - kind of offensive - question
Quote
Gender refers to the personal inner-sex identity of an individual, irrespective of his or her outer sex, which is determined by his/her/hir sexual organs
/queer stick up ass
and you want pictures - fuck it man find your own damn porn :wink:
Odd. I always thought "Gender" meant your biological state (ie, male or female).
Quote from: MMIX on May 11, 2010, 09:46:10 PM
:roll: If you had taken the trouble to Wiki it you could have answered your own - kind of offensive - question
:oops:
not meaning to be offensive....
I'm an 'A', i assure you.
I don't see how the question was offensive.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
Quote from: MMIX on May 11, 2010, 09:46:10 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 09:35:08 PM
is there a wikipage to esplain all this? perhaps with example pics and diagrams?
:roll: If you had taken the trouble to Wiki it you could have answered your own - kind of offensive - question
Quote
Gender refers to the personal inner-sex identity of an individual, irrespective of his or her outer sex, which is determined by his/her/hir sexual organs
/queer stick up ass
and you want pictures - fuck it man find your own damn porn :wink:
Odd. I always thought "Gender" meant your biological state (ie, male or female).
I'm sure some of the more savvy spags will come in and own us all, but I think Gender is more associated with man or woman, not male or female. That is a reference to social roles and whatnot. Sex is male or female, which refers to biological state.
My social justice teacher would have my head on a platter for not knowing this.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
Odd. I always thought "Gender" meant your biological state (ie, male or female).
EoC is right. Sex - biological. Gender - socialized (pink/blue blankets and so on). 'Queer' is sometimes used to un-binarize (bodies, identity, theory)... sometimes it's just used as a catchall in place of the alphabet soup. Slightly off-topic, but the soup I'm familiar with is LGBTTQ2S. That last is two-spirit.
@ OP - Awesome flashmob. That made my day. :D
Quote from: EoC on May 11, 2010, 10:01:28 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
Quote from: MMIX on May 11, 2010, 09:46:10 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 09:35:08 PM
is there a wikipage to esplain all this? perhaps with example pics and diagrams?
:roll: If you had taken the trouble to Wiki it you could have answered your own - kind of offensive - question
Quote
Gender refers to the personal inner-sex identity of an individual, irrespective of his or her outer sex, which is determined by his/her/hir sexual organs
/queer stick up ass
and you want pictures - fuck it man find your own damn porn :wink:
Odd. I always thought "Gender" meant your biological state (ie, male or female).
I'm sure some of the more savvy spags will come in and own us all, but I think Gender is more associated with man or woman, not male or female. That is a reference to social roles and whatnot. Sex is male or female, which refers to biological state.
My social justice teacher would have my head on a platter for not knowing this.
I see. I've been going by the dictionary meaning:
Quotegen·der [ jéndər ]
somebody's sex: the sex of a person or organism, or of a whole category of people or organisms
categorization of nouns: the classification of nouns and pronouns in some languages according to the forms taken by adjectives, modifiers, and other grammatical items associated syntactically with them
category of noun: any one of the categories into which nouns and pronouns are divided in languages that have gender, e.g. masculine, feminine, neuter, or common
Synonyms: sex, sexual category, sexual characteristics, masculinity, femininity, sexual role
See full definition · Encarta World English Dictionary
Hadn't heard the other meaning.
Quote from: Nurse Rhizome on May 11, 2010, 10:06:29 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
Odd. I always thought "Gender" meant your biological state (ie, male or female).
EoC is right. Sex - biological. Gender - socialized (pink/blue blankets and so on). 'Queer' is sometimes used to un-binarize (bodies, identity, theory)... sometimes it's just used as a catchall in place of the alphabet soup. Slightly off-topic, but the soup I'm familiar with is LGBTTQ2S. That last is two-spirit.
@ OP - Awesome flashmob. That made my day. :D
Okay, enough is enough. I refuse to memorize LGBTTQ2S. I'm just gonna say "people".
And I'm still confused as to why Ippie's question was offensive.
Quote from: Nurse Rhizome on May 11, 2010, 10:06:29 PM
the soup I'm familiar with is LGBTTQ2S. That last is two-spirit.
... i already used the asplode emote....
what do i do now?
:lol:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:18:11 PM
Okay, enough is enough. I refuse to memorize LGBTTQ2S.
:?
Only included it as a point of interest to RHWN's note - thinking maybe the soups are differently put together in Canada than in the states or the uk or wherever s/he's from. ... Ah, I see where my problem might have been: I should've been clearer about whose point I was adding to and not put it all in one chunk.* I wasn't asking you to remember or use anything. Apologies if I was unclear.
Unimportant personal information: I usually just use the word queer if I'm talking about everyone minus hets. Else I end up making a BBQ joke which hasn't been funny since the 90s.
@ Iptuous - use it again? Do watcha wannado.
*will eventually get the hang of this internets-talking thingy, damnabbit!
What is hets?
what is 2spirited?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:16:45 PM
Quote from: EoC on May 11, 2010, 10:01:28 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
Quote from: MMIX on May 11, 2010, 09:46:10 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 09:35:08 PM
is there a wikipage to esplain all this? perhaps with example pics and diagrams?
:roll: If you had taken the trouble to Wiki it you could have answered your own - kind of offensive - question
Quote
Gender refers to the personal inner-sex identity of an individual, irrespective of his or her outer sex, which is determined by his/her/hir sexual organs
/queer stick up ass
and you want pictures - fuck it man find your own damn porn :wink:
Odd. I always thought "Gender" meant your biological state (ie, male or female).
I'm sure some of the more savvy spags will come in and own us all, but I think Gender is more associated with man or woman, not male or female. That is a reference to social roles and whatnot. Sex is male or female, which refers to biological state.
My social justice teacher would have my head on a platter for not knowing this.
I see. I've been going by the dictionary meaning:
Quotegen·der [ jéndər ]
somebody's sex: the sex of a person or organism, or of a whole category of people or organisms
categorization of nouns: the classification of nouns and pronouns in some languages according to the forms taken by adjectives, modifiers, and other grammatical items associated syntactically with them
category of noun: any one of the categories into which nouns and pronouns are divided in languages that have gender, e.g. masculine, feminine, neuter, or common
Synonyms: sex, sexual category, sexual characteristics, masculinity, femininity, sexual role
See full definition · Encarta World English Dictionary
Hadn't heard the other meaning.
The hell's a dictionary? Oh Doktor with your antiquities, you slay me!
Quote from: Nurse Rhizome on May 11, 2010, 10:40:02 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:18:11 PM
Okay, enough is enough. I refuse to memorize LGBTTQ2S.
:?
Only included it as a point of interest to RHWN's note - thinking maybe the soups are differently put together in Canada than in the states or the uk or wherever s/he's from. ... Ah, I see where my problem might have been: I should've been clearer about whose point I was adding to and not put it all in one chunk.* I wasn't asking you to remember or use anything. Apologies if I was unclear.
Unimportant personal information: I usually just use the word queer if I'm talking about everyone minus hets. Else I end up making a BBQ joke which hasn't been funny since the 90s.
@ Iptuous - use it again? Do watcha wannado.
*will eventually get the hang of this internets-talking thingy, damnabbit!
Well, it's sort of become a self-referential joke, from an outsider's POV. An endless regression of added terms, as if one group might become enraged at being "lumped in" with other non-heteros. It seems to be more of an ego thing, than any attempt at identification.
And if MMIX comes back to this thread, I'm really kinda bugged about the "offensive" thing. Since when has asking for information become offensive? Bigotry is composed of ignorance and/or fear. Telling someone they're "offensive" for trying to eliminate their own ignorance seems to be more hystrionics and love of being "persecuted" than any attempt at equality.
And if the question isn't one of equality, then it's mere attention-whoring.
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 10:43:11 PM
What is hets?
what is 2spirited?
Hets = heterosexual, I think.
2 spirited sounds suspiciously hippie. Like 3 moon wolf or some shit.
Two-spirited is a term used across various Native American tribes to describe someone who fulfills both gender roles, i.e. having the spirits of both a man and a woman.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:46:42 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 10:43:11 PM
What is hets?
what is 2spirited?
Hets = heterosexual, I think.
2 spirited sounds suspiciously hippie. Like 3 moon wolf or some shit.
oh.... duh.
yeah, the 2spirited thing made me think there were furries working their way into this shit....
Quote from: Nast on May 11, 2010, 10:47:42 PM
Two-spirited is a term used across various Native American tribes to describe someone who fulfills both gender roles, i.e. having the spirits of both a man and a woman.
I knew it.
a gender thread, in MY Apple Talk?
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 10:48:15 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:46:42 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 10:43:11 PM
What is hets?
what is 2spirited?
Hets = heterosexual, I think.
2 spirited sounds suspiciously hippie. Like 3 moon wolf or some shit.
oh.... duh.
yeah, the 2spirited thing made me think there were furries working their way into this shit....
That's bound to happen. Or "Otherkin" (Do not drink liquids while googling).
Quote from: Kai on May 11, 2010, 10:49:06 PM
a gender thread, in MY Apple Talk?
It's more ambiguous than you think!
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:48:32 PM
Quote from: Nast on May 11, 2010, 10:47:42 PM
Two-spirited is a term used across various Native American tribes to describe someone who fulfills both gender roles, i.e. having the spirits of both a man and a woman.
I knew it.
And I'm sure that Native Americans are
thrilled with the patchouli-scented crowd's fondness of appropriating* their culture.
*Read: ripping off
Quote from: Nast on May 11, 2010, 11:00:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:48:32 PM
Quote from: Nast on May 11, 2010, 10:47:42 PM
Two-spirited is a term used across various Native American tribes to describe someone who fulfills both gender roles, i.e. having the spirits of both a man and a woman.
I knew it.
And I'm sure that Native Americans are thrilled with the patchouli-scented crowd's fondness of appropriating* their culture.
*Read: ripping off
Yeah, just like they must love the Cherohonky crowd.
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 09:35:08 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on May 11, 2010, 09:24:53 PM
What benefits?
You're saying there aren't any? what kind of union is that?
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 11, 2010, 09:30:33 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 09:23:57 PM
but, what's the difference between 'queer' and 'gay'?
Queer was supposed to be added to deal with the proliferation of genderqueer types (cause everyone wants recognition in the title).
This apparently failed miserably.
Quote
I'm not sure about the intersex part.
Intersex=Naturally having characteristics of both sexes.
what the hell is genderqueer?!
and what do you mean by characteristics? like physically? like Yul Brynner with boobs?
or you mean a man that likes to do some traditionally female tasks?
is there a wikipage to esplain all this? perhaps with example pics and diagrams?
Wiki probably has a page on intersex conditions. But physical or genetic conditions. Genderqueer is identity stuff, male body identifying as a woman, female body identifying as a man, identifying as both but not at the same time, a combination of the two, or no gender. There are probably more that I'm forgetting.
Quote from: EoC on May 11, 2010, 10:44:48 PM
The hell's a dictionary? Oh Doktor with your antiquities, you slay me!
I am a foolish old man, sometimes. :(
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 09:54:21 PM
I don't see how the question was offensive.
Maybe because he wasn't spontaneously interested enough in the
fascinating state of other people's gender identity issues to have already looked it up.
Quote from: EoC on May 11, 2010, 10:01:28 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
Quote from: MMIX on May 11, 2010, 09:46:10 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 09:35:08 PM
is there a wikipage to esplain all this? perhaps with example pics and diagrams?
:roll: If you had taken the trouble to Wiki it you could have answered your own - kind of offensive - question
Quote
Gender refers to the personal inner-sex identity of an individual, irrespective of his or her outer sex, which is determined by his/her/hir sexual organs
/queer stick up ass
and you want pictures - fuck it man find your own damn porn :wink:
Odd. I always thought "Gender" meant your biological state (ie, male or female).
I'm sure some of the more savvy spags will come in and own us all, but I think Gender is more associated with man or woman, not male or female. That is a reference to social roles and whatnot. Sex is male or female, which refers to biological state.
My social justice teacher would have my head on a platter for not knowing this.
In other words, "gender", as separate from sex, is a social construct.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:18:11 PM
Quote from: Nurse Rhizome on May 11, 2010, 10:06:29 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
Odd. I always thought "Gender" meant your biological state (ie, male or female).
EoC is right. Sex - biological. Gender - socialized (pink/blue blankets and so on). 'Queer' is sometimes used to un-binarize (bodies, identity, theory)... sometimes it's just used as a catchall in place of the alphabet soup. Slightly off-topic, but the soup I'm familiar with is LGBTTQ2S. That last is two-spirit.
@ OP - Awesome flashmob. That made my day. :D
Okay, enough is enough. I refuse to memorize LGBTTQ2S. I'm just gonna say "people".
Oh my god, seriously. Fuck that! :lulz: Nobody's that special.
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 11, 2010, 11:16:41 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 09:54:21 PM
I don't see how the question was offensive.
Maybe because he wasn't spontaneously interested enough in the fascinating state of other people's gender identity issues to have already looked it up.
You might be right. Or maybe he wanted to hear it from the people in the conversation? That may have even been the wisest course...I tried looking it up. I found 4 descriptions, none of which agreed with one another, and some dictionary terms that agreed with none of the others.
Granted, I'm stuck with a lousy search engine here, and blocked pages from hell.
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 11, 2010, 11:17:35 PM
Quote from: EoC on May 11, 2010, 10:01:28 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
Quote from: MMIX on May 11, 2010, 09:46:10 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 09:35:08 PM
is there a wikipage to esplain all this? perhaps with example pics and diagrams?
:roll: If you had taken the trouble to Wiki it you could have answered your own - kind of offensive - question
Quote
Gender refers to the personal inner-sex identity of an individual, irrespective of his or her outer sex, which is determined by his/her/hir sexual organs
/queer stick up ass
and you want pictures - fuck it man find your own damn porn :wink:
Odd. I always thought "Gender" meant your biological state (ie, male or female).
I'm sure some of the more savvy spags will come in and own us all, but I think Gender is more associated with man or woman, not male or female. That is a reference to social roles and whatnot. Sex is male or female, which refers to biological state.
My social justice teacher would have my head on a platter for not knowing this.
In other words, "gender", as separate from sex, is a social construct.
I suppose. There's no actual English word for the concept I think is trying to be expressed, so "gender" as opposed to "sex" will probably have to do.
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 11, 2010, 11:18:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:18:11 PM
Quote from: Nurse Rhizome on May 11, 2010, 10:06:29 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
Odd. I always thought "Gender" meant your biological state (ie, male or female).
EoC is right. Sex - biological. Gender - socialized (pink/blue blankets and so on). 'Queer' is sometimes used to un-binarize (bodies, identity, theory)... sometimes it's just used as a catchall in place of the alphabet soup. Slightly off-topic, but the soup I'm familiar with is LGBTTQ2S. That last is two-spirit.
@ OP - Awesome flashmob. That made my day. :D
Okay, enough is enough. I refuse to memorize LGBTTQ2S. I'm just gonna say "people".
Oh my god, seriously. Fuck that! :lulz: Nobody's that special.
"People" works. Or "folks" I think used to be the term.
Quote from: Nast on May 11, 2010, 11:00:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:48:32 PM
Quote from: Nast on May 11, 2010, 10:47:42 PM
Two-spirited is a term used across various Native American tribes to describe someone who fulfills both gender roles, i.e. having the spirits of both a man and a woman.
I knew it.
And I'm sure that Native Americans are thrilled with the patchouli-scented crowd's fondness of appropriating* their culture.
*Read: ripping off
It's Ojibwe in origin, and it's about as fucking irritating as it's possible to be when white people use it. "Queer" is FINE, and more inclusive anyway.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 11:02:00 PM
Quote from: Nast on May 11, 2010, 11:00:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:48:32 PM
Quote from: Nast on May 11, 2010, 10:47:42 PM
Two-spirited is a term used across various Native American tribes to describe someone who fulfills both gender roles, i.e. having the spirits of both a man and a woman.
I knew it.
And I'm sure that Native Americans are thrilled with the patchouli-scented crowd's fondness of appropriating* their culture.
*Read: ripping off
Yeah, just like they must love the Cherohonky crowd.
Cherohonky! :lulz:
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 11, 2010, 11:24:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 11:02:00 PM
Quote from: Nast on May 11, 2010, 11:00:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:48:32 PM
Quote from: Nast on May 11, 2010, 10:47:42 PM
Two-spirited is a term used across various Native American tribes to describe someone who fulfills both gender roles, i.e. having the spirits of both a man and a woman.
I knew it.
And I'm sure that Native Americans are thrilled with the patchouli-scented crowd's fondness of appropriating* their culture.
*Read: ripping off
Yeah, just like they must love the Cherohonky crowd.
Cherohonky! :lulz:
You've seen them. You've probably had to deal with them.
In my case, it's a friend of my mother's, a breathless, fat old Jewish lady who for 3 decades has been under the utterly mistaken impression that she's got Native American blood. She doesn't. Not a drop. To further illustrate what I'm talking about, she's "psychic", hates Muslims (she sometimes remembers she's Jewish, and assumes she's supposed to hate them), and wears a mumu with a wolf emblazoned on the back. No shit.
Then there's the skinny 50-something hippie with the pony tail and the necklace made out of bones looted from Pima burial sites, who justifies wearing PART OF SOME DUDE (no shit) around his neck as "embracing his (utterly fabricated) heritage".
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 11:29:50 PM
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 11, 2010, 11:24:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 11:02:00 PM
Quote from: Nast on May 11, 2010, 11:00:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:48:32 PM
Quote from: Nast on May 11, 2010, 10:47:42 PM
Two-spirited is a term used across various Native American tribes to describe someone who fulfills both gender roles, i.e. having the spirits of both a man and a woman.
I knew it.
And I'm sure that Native Americans are thrilled with the patchouli-scented crowd's fondness of appropriating* their culture.
*Read: ripping off
Yeah, just like they must love the Cherohonky crowd.
Cherohonky! :lulz:
You've seen them. You've probably had to deal with them.
In my case, it's a friend of my mother's, a breathless, fat old Jewish lady who for 3 decades has been under the utterly mistaken impression that she's got Native American blood. She doesn't. Not a drop. To further illustrate what I'm talking about, she's "psychic", hates Muslims (she sometimes remembers she's Jewish, and assumes she's supposed to hate them), and wears a mumu with a wolf emblazoned on the back. No shit.
Then there's the skinny 50-something hippie with the pony tail and the necklace made out of bones looted from Pima burial sites, who justifies wearing PART OF SOME DUDE (no shit) around his neck as "embracing his (utterly fabricated) heritage".
OH, YES
Painfully familiar. To the point where I usually refuse to discuss being part indian with anyone, for fear it will take a turn into the horrible.
On that note,
(http://englishrussia.com/images/bodybuilding_in_russia/3.jpg)
What the hell is that?
Soo much mess ... soo little time :(
Quote from: NotPubli on May 11, 2010, 11:40:15 PM
What the hell is that?
Soo much mess ... soo little time :(
From here: http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2007/08/16/bodybuilding-in-russia/
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 11, 2010, 11:47:50 PM
Quote from: NotPubli on May 11, 2010, 11:40:15 PM
What the hell is that?
Soo much mess ... soo little time :(
From here: http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2007/08/16/bodybuilding-in-russia/
Pretty much every entry on englishrussia is fantastic. I love the shots they have of the ruined reactors and bases and lighthouses.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 10:18:11 PM
Quote from: Nurse Rhizome on May 11, 2010, 10:06:29 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
Odd. I always thought "Gender" meant your biological state (ie, male or female).
EoC is right. Sex - biological. Gender - socialized (pink/blue blankets and so on). 'Queer' is sometimes used to un-binarize (bodies, identity, theory)... sometimes it's just used as a catchall in place of the alphabet soup. Slightly off-topic, but the soup I'm familiar with is LGBTTQ2S. That last is two-spirit.
@ OP - Awesome flashmob. That made my day. :D
Okay, enough is enough. I refuse to memorize LGBTTQ2S. I'm just gonna say "people".
And I'm still confused as to why Ippie's question was offensive.
Its running the risk of having the same thing that happened to prince and the IRA. One tried AFKAP, then that stupid symbol and from the other group that split into a million shards giving us The Real IRA, the provisional IRA, the Uncanny IRA etc. They got bundled without choice into the balloon headings of prince and the IRA and in this case I think that LGB will suffice any situation, lgbt at the most.
I think "queer" works just fine, but some people are bothered by the word, so I usually just say "weird", sometimes with "gender-" as a suffix.
A lexicon can be useful but sometimes words just get in the way of communicate and overgeneralize our very individual experiences. I'd rather have someone tell me they're queer, and just get to know them over a period of time, than hear a description like "pansexual polyam genderqueer" pegging them into a box.
Quote from: Kai on May 12, 2010, 12:27:17 AM
I think "queer" works just fine, but some people are bothered by the word, so I usually just say "weird", sometimes with "gender-" as a suffix.
A lexicon can be useful but sometimes words just get in the way of communicate and overgeneralize our very individual experiences. I'd rather have someone tell me they're queer, and just get to know them over a period of time, than hear a description like "pansexual polyam genderqueer" pegging them into a box.
Yep. Endless divisions are just that: divisions.
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 11, 2010, 11:33:09 PM
(http://englishrussia.com/images/bodybuilding_in_russia/3.jpg)
:horrormirth:
WHAT DID I DO TO YOUR FAMILY?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 12, 2010, 12:28:36 AM
Quote from: Kai on May 12, 2010, 12:27:17 AM
I think "queer" works just fine, but some people are bothered by the word, so I usually just say "weird", sometimes with "gender-" as a suffix.
A lexicon can be useful but sometimes words just get in the way of communicate and overgeneralize our very individual experiences. I'd rather have someone tell me they're queer, and just get to know them over a period of time, than hear a description like "pansexual polyam genderqueer" pegging them into a box.
Yep. Endless divisions are just that: divisions.
Funny how the wide range of sexuality going on in humans should be breaking down barriers but instead it just makes more boxes. Same with gender.
People usually find out more about my sexuality as they get to know me, rather than first thing. I have never once had anyone introduced to me as, for instance, "Stacy the Lesbian" or "Harold the Heterosexual", and I return the favor by not introducing myself as "Nigel the Polyamorous Bisexual Buttfucker".
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 12, 2010, 12:29:15 AM
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 11, 2010, 11:33:09 PM
(http://englishrussia.com/images/bodybuilding_in_russia/3.jpg)
:horrormirth:
WHAT DID I DO TO YOUR FAMILY?
:thanks: I'll think of something.
Thats why I just say I'm not gay I just like guys... Seems like a majority of people start treating you differently when they hear your 'different', makes me want to kill a motherfucker. :argh!:
What is with this gender/sexuality treatment?
eta: What is it with all of these seperate classifications also? Whats so important in having a label!
I also get annoyed when I'm introduced as Gay... I shot down the last person who did that.
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 08:49:51 PM
that's fabulous!
wait. LGBT.....Q?
when did 'Q' get added? and whats the technical distinction?
I kinda thought Q, as in Queer, stood for all four of those.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on May 11, 2010, 09:13:18 PM
I'm not sure about the intersex part.
Questioning, if I understand correctly, is bisexual with a question mark. But I may be crudely oversimplifying that.
The only reason I even know the acronym is because I've partnered with LGBTQQIA serving organizations in my work.
I guess that makes me an A.
I have a friend who is intersex. It's like T, but T means you are the wrong gender, and generally switch, intersex means you are in between, not male or female.
Quote from: Kai on May 12, 2010, 12:27:17 AM
I think "queer" works just fine, but some people are bothered by the word, so I usually just say "weird", sometimes with "gender-" as a suffix.
A lexicon can be useful but sometimes words just get in the way of communicate and overgeneralize our very individual experiences. I'd rather have someone tell me they're queer, and just get to know them over a period of time, than hear a description like "pansexual polyam genderqueer" pegging them into a box.
If I want to sleep with them I'd like to know what box they're in. Otherwise I figure it's gonna be more fun to get to know them as a person rather than a series of descriptors.
Personally it changes for me from hour to hour depending on who I see and the mood I'm in. Its confusing, not really a productive use of my time to think about it too much, besides the chase if far more fun if you don't get bogged down in the little details.
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 12, 2010, 12:31:59 AM
People usually find out more about my sexuality as they get to know me, rather than first thing. I have never once had anyone introduced to me as, for instance, "Stacy the Lesbian" or "Harold the Heterosexual", and I return the favor by not introducing myself as "Nigel the Polyamorous Bisexual Buttfucker".
I, on the other hand, proudly introduce myself as "Roger the crazed javelina-fucker."
Not my fault, they provoke me, sashaying around, you know how they do.
Quote from: Faust on May 12, 2010, 12:52:22 AM
Personally it changes for me from hour to hour depending on who I see and the mood I'm in. Its confusing, not really a productive use of my time to think about it too much, besides the chase if far more fun if you don't get bogged down in the little details.
Mostly I think that people's self-perceptions of gender and sexuality are a great big snooze.
Quote from: NotPubli on May 12, 2010, 12:34:10 AM
I also get annoyed when I'm introduced as Gay... I shot down the last person who did that.
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ZUIzlpPxX_qb3M:http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/april2007/redbaron_01.jpg)
?Goddamn Aussies.
That damn Baron! Better not mess with me again....
Quote from: NotPubli on May 12, 2010, 01:00:20 AM
That damn Baron! Better not mess with me again....
Of course, the Canadians also claim to have shot him down.
You gonna take that shit?
Knowing that fucker, he would of shot himself instead of being thanked by a Canadian.
Quote from: NotPubli on May 12, 2010, 01:04:35 AM
Knowing that fucker, he would of shot himself instead of being thanked by a Canadian.
Bullshit. His biceps were so huge, he couldn't possibly aim the gun at himself.
169% fact.
I already apologised to Ippy for my unfunny response but I kind of stick to it from the pov that - allowing that the whole LGBT etc etc etc etc IS kind of funny as the letters in the acronym apparently breed out of control and it seems to get longer every week. That said, it does represent a very significant definition for the various sexual/gender minorities who are represented and who feel the need to be so represented in a world where we are constantly reminded that Het is the NORM and all the rest of us are deviants. The "Letter Soup" is a way for minorities within the non-het population to claim identity with the other deviants. If you are a "Normal" it may actually never have occurred to you that there are huge differences between the sexual/gender minorities represented under the LGBT &tc aegis. The assumption that eg Lesbians and Gay men have similar political goals or that their sexual identities even have similar underlying causation is just wrong and many heterosexuals can quite reasonably claim queer credentials as an issue of sexual practice if not sexual politics. The initials are a constant reminder to LGBTQ&tc groups that they need to be aware of difference within their organisations and not replace the straight hegemony of the "normal" world for a gay male hegemony in the LGBTQ realm.
But in the final analysis its like all areas relating to sex, its fluid, messy, and probably not something you would really want to discuss with your neighbours . . .
So catching up on the last 2 pages . . . NB LGBT&tc refers to associations of people so most of the comments on how dumb/lame/gay :roll: it is are at best irrelevant and at worst . . . still irrelevant - nobody would try to introduce you as "Mervyn my LGBTTQ&tc neighbour" not even straight neighbours are that dumb/lame/gay are they??
I admit I am oversensitive and I should probably have stayed out of the thread but I am also probably the only parent around here who when the kids were younger and still at home had fire alarms in the the kitchen, in the stairwell and over the letterbox in the front door because of the risk of firebombing. Hysterical over-reaction, you say? No, it was just a reasonable precaution for our kids.
Now back on-topic I want to bang a huge drum for the flash mob - stunning work, wish I had seen it and just a great bit of support for others - not a self-involved "what about US" thing but a "what about the workers" moment.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 12, 2010, 12:54:05 AM
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 12, 2010, 12:31:59 AM
People usually find out more about my sexuality as they get to know me, rather than first thing. I have never once had anyone introduced to me as, for instance, "Stacy the Lesbian" or "Harold the Heterosexual", and I return the favor by not introducing myself as "Nigel the Polyamorous Bisexual Buttfucker".
I, on the other hand, proudly introduce myself as "Roger the crazed javelina-fucker."
Not my fault, they provoke me, sashaying around, you know how they do.
:lulz:
This thread made me :lulz: more than I probably should.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 12, 2010, 12:34:32 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 08:49:51 PM
that's fabulous!
wait. LGBT.....Q?
when did 'Q' get added? and whats the technical distinction?
I kinda thought Q, as in Queer, stood for all four of those.
Can stand for Questioning as well. It's a total alphabet soup, no getting around it.
Quote from: Kai on May 12, 2010, 01:39:35 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 12, 2010, 12:34:32 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 08:49:51 PM
that's fabulous!
wait. LGBT.....Q?
when did 'Q' get added? and whats the technical distinction?
I kinda thought Q, as in Queer, stood for all four of those.
Can stand for Questioning as well. It's a total alphabet soup, no getting around it.
It could even stand for Quetzalcoatl.
(http://archaeology.asu.edu/tm/Media/fig38Bz.jpg)
Yep. That's the one I'm going with.
I'm a Quetzsexual
I'm joining!
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 12, 2010, 01:48:32 AM
Quote from: Kai on May 12, 2010, 01:39:35 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 12, 2010, 12:34:32 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on May 11, 2010, 08:49:51 PM
that's fabulous!
wait. LGBT.....Q?
when did 'Q' get added? and whats the technical distinction?
I kinda thought Q, as in Queer, stood for all four of those.
Can stand for Questioning as well. It's a total alphabet soup, no getting around it.
It could even stand for Quetzalcoatl.
(http://archaeology.asu.edu/tm/Media/fig38Bz.jpg)
Yep. That's the one I'm going with.
Better. Chef would have wanted it that way.
Damn! You keep including more and more groups in our soup, and we'll all just be people!
....
Wait...
Quote from: Kai on May 12, 2010, 01:57:12 AM
Damn! You keep including more and more groups in our soup, and we'll all just be people!
....
Wait...
My point exactly.
It's like the end of the movie In and Out, where the whole auditorium full of students get up and declare they are gay.
When everyone is gay, there's no more people to be bitching about people being gay. 8)
Quote from: Kai on May 12, 2010, 02:02:28 AM
It's like the end of the movie In and Out, where the whole auditorium full of students get up and declare they are gay.
When everyone is gay, there's no more people to be bitching about people being gay. 8)
rainbow mittens for Kai!
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a289/goblinhill/RAINBOWMITTENS.jpg)
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2010, 11:21:01 PM
I suppose. There's no actual English word for the concept I think is trying to be expressed, so "gender" as opposed to "sex" will probably have to do.
As far as I've always understood, "gender" in this context* refers to the meaning expressed in the word "genderstudies", which studies the social function of gender, as opposed to the biological one.
As dictionary words, "sex" and "gender" are pretty much synonymous. It's very possible that dictionaries do not elaborate on the subtle-ish distinction, I'd check a (modern) encyclopaedia for that.
(*as opposed to, say, gender of nouns in linguistics)
The other terms, genderqueer, transsexual, etc have always confused me somewhat. Partly because I don't care enough for all the myriad distinctions, but mostly because in my experience just about anybody that categorizes themselves outside hetero/homo/male/female has their own unique story and ideas about it, and every time I thought I got it, somebody different popped up. And because it's so personal, some just don't like to talk about it very openly, which makes it even harder to just "pick up" all this new terminology.
Quote from: Kai on May 12, 2010, 12:27:17 AM
I think "queer" works just fine, but some people are bothered by the word, so I usually just say "weird", sometimes with "gender-" as a suffix.
Wouldn't "genderweird" be offensive to some? Just like I once made the mistake of using the word "genderconfused"?
"genderconfusing" would be sort of apt though, since it is confusing to
me :)
Quote from: Nigeland I return the favor by not introducing myself as "Nigel the Polyamorous Bisexual Buttfucker".
couldn't you stick to two relationships at a time, just for alliterative purposes?
Quote from: NotPubli on May 12, 2010, 12:34:10 AM
I also get annoyed when I'm introduced as Gay... I shot down the last person who did that.
Well, that classifies you as a homicidal homo.
Quote from: MMIX on May 12, 2010, 01:06:23 AM
it does represent a very significant definition for the various sexual/gender minorities who are represented and who feel the need to be so represented in a world where we are constantly reminded that Het is the NORM and all the rest of us are deviants.
Well that's the thing. I wasn't raised like that, when I had sex-ed in high school, we talked about male, femalse, hetero- and homosexuality. Those were implied as the norms. Transsexuality and "being born in the wrong body" were briefly discussed but not elaborated on, and that's it.
It took me until various types of genderqueers* popped up on PD to realize there is a whole lot more to it.
*I have no idea if this is now the right word here.
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2010, 09:53:23 AM
Quote from: Kai on May 12, 2010, 12:27:17 AM
I think "queer" works just fine, but some people are bothered by the word, so I usually just say "weird", sometimes with "gender-" as a suffix.
Wouldn't "genderweird" be offensive to some? Just like I once made the mistake of using the word "genderconfused"?
"genderconfusing" would be sort of apt though, since it is confusing to me :)
I meant that some people are bothered by the word "queer" because it's a politically charged word, so "weird" is a nice alternative.
all this identity stuff is going to get a lot weirder in the next 10, 20, 30 years
I'm reminded of the state of religion in Transmetropolitan. Everybody belongs to these cults, these really narrowly purposed short-lived religions. Nobody's a christian, though they might be a member of the First Church of Jesus' Haircut or the Ancient and Illuminated Temple of Papal Delights, which are kind of like derivatives of christianity.
And as the internet accelerates growth at the fringes of society we're going to see more and more far out identities and proclivities become "legitimate", because the internet, if anything, facilitates the formation of support networks and interest groups.
So just get ready for that alphabet soup abbreviation to get longer and longer.
LBGTBBQWTFETC
Can't we just realize that only a minory of people want to be known as "Heterosexual Missionary Position for Procreation Only," and just start labeling them, leaving the rest of us as "normal"?
I'm anti HMPPO - In fact, I'm a HMPPOmophobe.
Quote from: LMNO on May 12, 2010, 03:49:39 PM
Can't we just realize that only a minory of people want to be known as "Heterosexual Missionary Position for Procreation Only," and just start labeling them, leaving the rest of us as "normal"?
I'm anti HMPPO - In fact, I'm a HMPPOmophobe.
I'm convinced that there are plenty in the soup that specifically desire to be 'abnormal' enough that if your suggestion were to take off, they would
become HMPPO....
perhaps even joining the Quiverfull movement.
Quote from: LMNO on May 12, 2010, 03:49:39 PM
Can't we just realize that only a minory of people want to be known as "Heterosexual Missionary Position for Procreation Only," and just start labeling them, leaving the rest of us as "normal"?
I'm anti HMPPO - In fact, I'm a HMPPOmophobe.
I don't have a problem with the HMPPOs, as long as they don't shove it in my face.
Quote from: Iptuous on May 12, 2010, 03:55:13 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 12, 2010, 03:49:39 PM
Can't we just realize that only a minory of people want to be known as "Heterosexual Missionary Position for Procreation Only," and just start labeling them, leaving the rest of us as "normal"?
I'm anti HMPPO - In fact, I'm a HMPPOmophobe.
I'm convinced that there are plenty in the soup that specifically desire to be 'abnormal' enough that if your suggestion were to take off, they would become HMPPO....
perhaps even joining the Quiverfull movement.
:lulz:
I suspect you're right
and then they would talk about it all the time and make sure everyone knew, and act all butthurt if you don't think they're special.
Ron White; everybody is a little gay.
Rons friend; I AM NOT!
Ron; You like porn?
Friend; You know I like porn.
Ron; So you just watch women with women?
Friend; No, I like men with women too.
Ron; So you like the guy to have a small half flacid penis.
Friend; No. I like him to have a big throbb.......I never knew that about myself.
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 12, 2010, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 12, 2010, 03:49:39 PM
Can't we just realize that only a minory of people want to be known as "Heterosexual Missionary Position for Procreation Only," and just start labeling them, leaving the rest of us as "normal"?
I'm anti HMPPO - In fact, I'm a HMPPOmophobe.
I don't have a problem with the HMPPOs, as long as they don't shove it in my face.
Shoving it in your face from a missionary position seems like it would be rather awkward.
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2010, 09:53:23 AM
Quote from: Kai on May 12, 2010, 12:27:17 AM
I think "queer" works just fine, but some people are bothered by the word, so I usually just say "weird", sometimes with "gender-" as a suffix.
Wouldn't "genderweird" be offensive to some? Just like I once made the mistake of using the word "genderconfused"?
"genderconfusing" would be sort of apt though, since it is confusing to me :)
Quote from: Nigeland I return the favor by not introducing myself as "Nigel the Polyamorous Bisexual Buttfucker".
couldn't you stick to two relationships at a time, just for alliterative purposes?
Genderweird might be offensive, but it also seems accurate to me. Being intersexed, trans, or asexual (those poor fucks don't seem to be in the soup yet) is weird, as in, far outside the norm. Confused meanwhile may easily be inaccurate as most of them have a pretty clear idea of what they are, it's just confusing to you and I.
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2010, 09:53:23 AM
Quote from: Nigeland I return the favor by not introducing myself as "Nigel the Polyamorous Bisexual Buttfucker".
couldn't you stick to two relationships at a time, just for alliterative purposes?
Heyyyyy I think you're onto something!
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2010, 09:54:57 AM
Quote from: NotPubli on May 12, 2010, 12:34:10 AM
I also get annoyed when I'm introduced as Gay... I shot down the last person who did that.
Well, that classifies you as a homicidal homo.
:lulz: :lulz: I've been called a Homophobic Homo once
Actually I've been called many things .. don't really care for much of them
related:
http://www.andrewtobias.com/newcolumns/000504.html
a letter from an angry parent who is sick of the homophobic agenda being treated as a moral agenda.
QuoteYou have the audacity to talk about protecting families and children from the homosexual menace, while you yourselves tear apart families and drive children to despair. I don't know why my son is gay, but I do know that God didn't put him, and millions like him, on this Earth to give you someone to abuse. God gave you brains so that you could think, and it's about time you started doing that.
At the core of all your misguided beliefs is the belief that this could never happen to you, that there is some kind of subculture out there that people have chosen to join. The fact is that if it can happen to my family, it can happen to yours, and you won't get to choose. Whether it is genetic or whether something occurs during a critical time of fetal development, I don't know. I can only tell you with an absolute certainty that it is inborn.
If you want to tout your own morality, you'd best come up with something more substantive than your heterosexuality. You did nothing to earn it; it was given to you. If you disagree, I would be interested in hearing your story, because my own heterosexuality was a blessing I received with no effort whatsoever on my part. It is so woven into the very soul of me that nothing could ever change it. For those of you who reduce sexual orientation to a simple choice, a character issue, a bad habit or something that can be changed by a 10-step program, I'm puzzled. Are you saying that your own sexual orientation is nothing more than something you have chosen, that you could change it at will? If that's not the case, then why would you suggest that someone else can?
You know it's all fucked up when people get upset about love and think it's great to hate.
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 03:51:41 PM
You know it's all fucked up when people get upset about love and think it's great to hate.
I doubt that people who can hate like that have ever felt love.
I'm not sure why the two would be mutually exclusive. Having poorly thought-out motivations for one strong emotion doesn't preclude having other strong emotions.
The motivations for those, of course, would probably be poorly thought-out as well.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on May 13, 2010, 04:20:33 PM
I'm not sure why the two would be mutually exclusive. Having poorly thought-out motivations for one strong emotion doesn't preclude having other strong emotions.
The motivations for those, of course, would probably be poorly thought-out as well.
True enough I guess.
It's how the kinds of people you see on www.peopleofwalmart.com (http://www.peopleofwalmart.com) keep breeding.
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 03:53:17 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 03:51:41 PM
You know it's all fucked up when people get upset about love and think it's great to hate.
I doubt that people who can hate like that have ever felt love.
Hate is very closely linked to love in the way your mind processes emotions. And I both loved and intensely hated people at the same time.
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 03:53:17 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 03:51:41 PM
You know it's all fucked up when people get upset about love and think it's great to hate.
I doubt that people who can hate like that have ever felt love.
Balls. You can't hate without having experienced love.
Speaking of queerness....
I've been wearing a long modest skirt on campus for the last month and a half, 1-2 days a week. Initially I was terrified, but after a day of no body harassing me I've decided that if anyone gives a shit they won't act on it. Which makes me feel very good and self confident.
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:10:45 PM
Speaking of queerness....
I've been wearing a long modest skirt on campus for the last month and a half, 1-2 days a week. Initially I was terrified, but after a day of no body harassing me I've decided that if anyone gives a shit they won't act on it. Which makes me feel very good and self confident.
Don't leave Kansas. That's South Carolina, Kai.
But I'm glad to hear that you can be yourself, if only on Campus.
http://www.utilikilts.com/
I need to order a few of these.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 13, 2010, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:10:45 PM
Speaking of queerness....
I've been wearing a long modest skirt on campus for the last month and a half, 1-2 days a week. Initially I was terrified, but after a day of no body harassing me I've decided that if anyone gives a shit they won't act on it. Which makes me feel very good and self confident.
Don't leave Kansas. That's South Carolina, Kai.
But I'm glad to hear that you can be yourself, if only on Campus.
And anywhere in the immediate area of town really. I go out to eat and no one bothers me.
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:10:45 PM
Speaking of queerness....
I've been wearing a long modest skirt on campus for the last month and a half, 1-2 days a week. Initially I was terrified, but after a day of no body harassing me I've decided that if anyone gives a shit they won't act on it. Which makes me feel very good and self confident.
This reminds me that I forgot your gender, other than that there is some sort of weirdness going on with it. Do you mind if I categorize you as "genderqueer" for the sake of convenience? Also, what pronoun was I supposed to use? Do you mind if I alternate freely between male and female?
Quote from: Vene on May 13, 2010, 05:41:58 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:10:45 PM
Speaking of queerness....
I've been wearing a long modest skirt on campus for the last month and a half, 1-2 days a week. Initially I was terrified, but after a day of no body harassing me I've decided that if anyone gives a shit they won't act on it. Which makes me feel very good and self confident.
This reminds me that I forgot your gender, other than that there is some sort of weirdness going on with it. Do you mind if I categorize you as "genderqueer" for the sake of convenience? Also, what pronoun was I supposed to use? Do you mind if I alternate freely between male and female?
genderqueer is fine. he or she or they is fine. "It" is probably okay in the right context. made up pronouns are screwy because we already have neutral pronouns in this language.
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:45:30 PM
Quote from: Vene on May 13, 2010, 05:41:58 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:10:45 PM
Speaking of queerness....
I've been wearing a long modest skirt on campus for the last month and a half, 1-2 days a week. Initially I was terrified, but after a day of no body harassing me I've decided that if anyone gives a shit they won't act on it. Which makes me feel very good and self confident.
This reminds me that I forgot your gender, other than that there is some sort of weirdness going on with it. Do you mind if I categorize you as "genderqueer" for the sake of convenience? Also, what pronoun was I supposed to use? Do you mind if I alternate freely between male and female?
genderqueer is fine. he or she or they is fine. "It" is probably okay in the right context. made up pronouns are screwy because we already have neutral pronouns in this language.
Can I just call you Kai?
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 05:49:48 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:45:30 PM
Quote from: Vene on May 13, 2010, 05:41:58 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:10:45 PM
Speaking of queerness....
I've been wearing a long modest skirt on campus for the last month and a half, 1-2 days a week. Initially I was terrified, but after a day of no body harassing me I've decided that if anyone gives a shit they won't act on it. Which makes me feel very good and self confident.
This reminds me that I forgot your gender, other than that there is some sort of weirdness going on with it. Do you mind if I categorize you as "genderqueer" for the sake of convenience? Also, what pronoun was I supposed to use? Do you mind if I alternate freely between male and female?
genderqueer is fine. he or she or they is fine. "It" is probably okay in the right context. made up pronouns are screwy because we already have neutral pronouns in this language.
Can I just call you Kai?
THIS.
Dok,
Doesn't catagorize his friends.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 13, 2010, 05:50:39 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 05:49:48 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:45:30 PM
Quote from: Vene on May 13, 2010, 05:41:58 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:10:45 PM
Speaking of queerness....
I've been wearing a long modest skirt on campus for the last month and a half, 1-2 days a week. Initially I was terrified, but after a day of no body harassing me I've decided that if anyone gives a shit they won't act on it. Which makes me feel very good and self confident.
This reminds me that I forgot your gender, other than that there is some sort of weirdness going on with it. Do you mind if I categorize you as "genderqueer" for the sake of convenience? Also, what pronoun was I supposed to use? Do you mind if I alternate freely between male and female?
genderqueer is fine. he or she or they is fine. "It" is probably okay in the right context. made up pronouns are screwy because we already have neutral pronouns in this language.
Can I just call you Kai?
THIS.
Dok,
Doesn't catagorize his friends.
Yes. In fact...I prefer that, but most people consider that to be too weird.
Lots of guys wear skirts in Portland... but, hell, it's Portland.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 13, 2010, 05:50:39 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 05:49:48 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:45:30 PM
Quote from: Vene on May 13, 2010, 05:41:58 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:10:45 PM
Speaking of queerness....
I've been wearing a long modest skirt on campus for the last month and a half, 1-2 days a week. Initially I was terrified, but after a day of no body harassing me I've decided that if anyone gives a shit they won't act on it. Which makes me feel very good and self confident.
This reminds me that I forgot your gender, other than that there is some sort of weirdness going on with it. Do you mind if I categorize you as "genderqueer" for the sake of convenience? Also, what pronoun was I supposed to use? Do you mind if I alternate freely between male and female?
genderqueer is fine. he or she or they is fine. "It" is probably okay in the right context. made up pronouns are screwy because we already have neutral pronouns in this language.
Can I just call you Kai?
THIS.
Dok,
Doesn't catagorize his friends.
I don't mind categories, I mean, even "Kai" and "friend" are categories. But I do try to keep in mind that the words are not the object or concept or being they represent. They're a method of organizing the world and making it possible to understand. If a person or object or concept doesn't fit the word, it's the fault of the word, not what it is supposed to represent. But, what I really don't want to do is accidentally offend somebody, like Kai, that I respect. Especially not over something so easy for me to adjust as pronoun usage.
Quote from: Vene on May 13, 2010, 06:49:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 13, 2010, 05:50:39 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 05:49:48 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:45:30 PM
Quote from: Vene on May 13, 2010, 05:41:58 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:10:45 PM
Speaking of queerness....
I've been wearing a long modest skirt on campus for the last month and a half, 1-2 days a week. Initially I was terrified, but after a day of no body harassing me I've decided that if anyone gives a shit they won't act on it. Which makes me feel very good and self confident.
This reminds me that I forgot your gender, other than that there is some sort of weirdness going on with it. Do you mind if I categorize you as "genderqueer" for the sake of convenience? Also, what pronoun was I supposed to use? Do you mind if I alternate freely between male and female?
genderqueer is fine. he or she or they is fine. "It" is probably okay in the right context. made up pronouns are screwy because we already have neutral pronouns in this language.
Can I just call you Kai?
THIS.
Dok,
Doesn't catagorize his friends.
I don't mind categories, I mean, even "Kai" and "friend" are categories. But I do try to keep in mind that the words are not the object or concept or being they represent. They're a method of organizing the world and making it possible to understand. If a person or object or concept doesn't fit the word, it's the fault of the word, not what it is supposed to represent. But, what I really don't want to do is accidentally offend somebody, like Kai, that I respect. Especially not over something so easy for me to adjust as pronoun usage.
No, "Kai" is the label, or name, that I use when I wish to speak to him. It represents him as an entire entity, not just one facet of who he is...As opposed to "Genderqueer" which describes only one portion of him. Kai may be genderqueer, but he's also a genius in his field, and a good friend who has given me very valuable advice on occasion.
And "friend" may be a catagory, but it also does not put a limit on how I see a person.
I categorize people by what appears under their nick
right now most of you are under the category of "Deserved It"
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 13, 2010, 06:56:11 PM
I categorize people by what appears under their nick
right now most of you are under the category of "Deserved It"
:lulz:
I catagorize people as "friends", "enemies", "some guy I know from around the way", and "irrelevant".
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 13, 2010, 06:54:13 PM
No, "Kai" is the label, or name, that I use when I wish to speak to him. It represents him as an entire entity, not just one facet of who he is...As opposed to "Genderqueer" which describes only one portion of him. Kai may be genderqueer, but he's also a genius in his field, and a good friend who has given me very valuable advice on occasion.
And "friend" may be a catagory, but it also does not put a limit on how I see a person.
Okay, I'll accept what you're saying about "Kai." But, I still maintain that "friend" is a category. I also wonder why you're thinking that "genderqueer" limits how I see him as a person (at the least, not anymore than being "male" or "female"). I don't see anything wrong with it, I don't have any stigma against it. Hell, I'm fucking somebody who's genderqueer. When I'm asking about gender, I'm mostly just asking which pronoun do you want me to use. And I am willing to change it if necessary. I can think of two friends off hand who I went from calling "he" to "she" because that's what they wanted.
And, Dok, I'm human, I categorize and set up filters. I try to use them as useful tools to understand the bloody complicated world around me. But, I do actively keep in mind that, to use a cliche, the map is not the territory. The words are the representations of reality, but it's never reality that is wrong, my words are wrong. Which is also why I had no problem changing which pronoun I used when referring to my trans friends. The map was wrong, so I corrected it. The filter was wrong, so I changed it.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 13, 2010, 06:54:13 PM
Quote from: Vene on May 13, 2010, 06:49:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 13, 2010, 05:50:39 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 05:49:48 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:45:30 PM
Quote from: Vene on May 13, 2010, 05:41:58 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 13, 2010, 05:10:45 PM
Speaking of queerness....
I've been wearing a long modest skirt on campus for the last month and a half, 1-2 days a week. Initially I was terrified, but after a day of no body harassing me I've decided that if anyone gives a shit they won't act on it. Which makes me feel very good and self confident.
This reminds me that I forgot your gender, other than that there is some sort of weirdness going on with it. Do you mind if I categorize you as "genderqueer" for the sake of convenience? Also, what pronoun was I supposed to use? Do you mind if I alternate freely between male and female?
genderqueer is fine. he or she or they is fine. "It" is probably okay in the right context. made up pronouns are screwy because we already have neutral pronouns in this language.
Can I just call you Kai?
THIS.
Dok,
Doesn't catagorize his friends.
I don't mind categories, I mean, even "Kai" and "friend" are categories. But I do try to keep in mind that the words are not the object or concept or being they represent. They're a method of organizing the world and making it possible to understand. If a person or object or concept doesn't fit the word, it's the fault of the word, not what it is supposed to represent. But, what I really don't want to do is accidentally offend somebody, like Kai, that I respect. Especially not over something so easy for me to adjust as pronoun usage.
No, "Kai" is the label, or name, that I use when I wish to speak to him. It represents him as an entire entity, not just one facet of who he is...As opposed to "Genderqueer" which describes only one portion of him. Kai may be genderqueer, but he's also a genius in his field, and a good friend who has given me very valuable advice on occasion.
And "friend" may be a catagory, but it also does not put a limit on how I see a person.
Dok nailed it.
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 13, 2010, 06:56:11 PM
I categorize people by what appears under their nick
right now most of you are under the category of "Deserved It"
Whenever I feel bad I come to PD.com. After clicking around a while, I'll scroll up and see "Also, fuck you Kai" in the news.
Which makes me smile. :)
Quote from: Vene on May 13, 2010, 07:07:41 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 13, 2010, 06:54:13 PM
No, "Kai" is the label, or name, that I use when I wish to speak to him. It represents him as an entire entity, not just one facet of who he is...As opposed to "Genderqueer" which describes only one portion of him. Kai may be genderqueer, but he's also a genius in his field, and a good friend who has given me very valuable advice on occasion.
And "friend" may be a catagory, but it also does not put a limit on how I see a person.
Okay, I'll accept what you're saying about "Kai." But, I still maintain that "friend" is a category. I also wonder why you're thinking that "genderqueer" limits how I see him as a person (at the least, not anymore than being "male" or "female"). I don't see anything wrong with it, I don't have any stigma against it. Hell, I'm fucking somebody who's genderqueer. When I'm asking about gender, I'm mostly just asking which pronoun do you want me to use. And I am willing to change it if necessary. I can think of two friends off hand who I went from calling "he" to "she" because that's what they wanted.
And, Dok, I'm human, I categorize and set up filters. I try to use them as useful tools to understand the bloody complicated world around me. But, I do actively keep in mind that, to use a cliche, the map is not the territory. The words are the representations of reality, but it's never reality that is wrong, my words are wrong. Which is also why I had no problem changing which pronoun I used when referring to my trans friends. The map was wrong, so I corrected it. The filter was wrong, so I changed it.
Vene, I'm not limited by the word friend. The word friend is not a limiting word, IMO.
Great thread.
I don't have anything to add, just saying I've been enjoying reading it.
Carry on.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on May 11, 2010, 08:57:56 PM
Actually, now it's LGBTQQIA.
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, and Allies.
Requesting an update on the proper terminology. I can't keep up.
I tend to GSRMI. Gender, sexual, romantic minorities, and intersex. Sort of a catch-all and less of a mouthful. I've never included allies in that label, mostly because I've never thought about it. I shall, though.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:41:03 PM
I tend to GSRMI. Gender, sexual, romantic minorities, and intersex. Sort of a catch-all and less of a mouthful. I've never included allies in that label, mostly because I've never thought about it. I shall, though.
That's LESS initials, and is therefore unacceptable. Acronyms are supposed to GROW and PROLIFERATE, not shrink. Otherwise, you could just go to NT (non-traditional) and call it a day.
Id rather it be unnecessary to have an acronym at all. Why should we be the different at all? Couldnt we call them shhh (secret homosexual hating homosexuals)?
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 06:50:32 PM
Id rather it be unnecessary to have an acronym at all.
That's because you hate America. Stop hating America.
I cant help it roger im a crotchety old irishman that walks *faster* than everyone else (and is trapped in a 31 year old body).
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
Except that the distinction helps perpetuate the necessity.
Just saying.
Maybe we should write in to faux and tell them lgbtqaaixyz community is discriminating against heteros by not letting them in their pride parade. Then we can all abandon ship and let them go around in parades dressed flamboyantly.
lgbtqqiamstuckinanacronymfactorysendhelp
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 07:00:44 PM
Maybe we should write in to faux and tell them lgbtqaaixyz community is discriminating against heteros by not letting them in their pride parade.
I've never once heard of anyone being excluded from the pride parade.
In fact, when I was in Boston, we stopped by at the pre-parade demonstration thingie, and people were very nice. Of course, we were hassling the "counter-protestors", which might have bought us slightly more courtesy. But I doubt it. I think they would have been that nice if we'd shown up with signs around our necks saying "Help! I'm lost! Who ARE You People?".
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on December 13, 2012, 07:02:16 PM
lgbtqqiamstuckinanacronymfactorysendhelp
Thread over. EoC wins. :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 06:54:56 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
Except that the distinction helps perpetuate the necessity.
Just saying.
That is true, I fully admit. But dropping them right now is really not going to be of any use because there are particular issues that affect all of the GSRMI community that don't touch other groups. We need the ability to give a name to the people who are specifically affected in order to protect them legally and explain the social issues that make them a vulnerable group.
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 07:00:44 PM
Maybe we should write in to faux and tell them lgbtqaaixyz community is discriminating against heteros by not letting them in their pride parade. Then we can all abandon ship and let them go around in parades dressed flamboyantly.
:? What?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 07:03:07 PM
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 07:00:44 PM
Maybe we should write in to faux and tell them lgbtqaaixyz community is discriminating against heteros by not letting them in their pride parade.
I've never once heard of anyone being excluded from the pride parade.
In fact, when I was in Boston, we stopped by at the pre-parade demonstration thingie, and people were very nice. Of course, we were hassling the "counter-protestors", which might have bought us slightly more courtesy. But I doubt it. I think they would have been that nice if we'd shown up with signs around our necks saying "Help! I'm lost! Who ARE You People?".
:lulz:
Although there are probably Pride parades that do exclude allies, I don't think there are very many.
Oh definitely. Heterosexuals in fact dont get excluded. But it would just be kind of funny to hear them want to be part of the alphabet soup on account of their persecution of the majority complexes.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 07:05:16 PM
Although there are probably Pride parades that do exclude allies, I don't think there are very many.
I'd think we'd hear baggers crowing over it if that had ever happened.
And by this i mean heterosexists. Its just a funny image. Never mind pay no attention to the cold guy waiting for the bus.
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 07:05:51 PM
Oh definitely. Heterosexuals in fact dont get excluded. But it would just be kind of funny to hear them want to be part of the alphabet soup on account of their persecution of the majority complexes.
Oh, yeah, I love that shit. "I AM NO LONGER ALLOWED TO FUCK PEOPLE OVER. PITY ME, FOR I AM PERSECUTED." Seriously. Not being allowed to fire someone for being Gay is totally just like being shoved into a gas chamber.
:lulz:
It's like listening to that fucko Bill O'Reilly whimpering about The War on Christmas, because people can't seem to get it into their heads that Jesus was all about mass consumerism and forced conformity.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 07:05:16 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I think it SHOULD be dropped, and replaced with GET OUT OF MY FACE, MY ORIENTATION IS NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS, accompanied by a swift kick in the ass.
Seriously. The fact that this sort of thing is even relevant is an indictment on a nation that pretends to be "free". And Reverend Rick Warren can kiss my straight ass until it develops blisters.
:lulz: i know right? Id love an actual war on christmas. I wouldnt have to listen to a shitty genre of music based entirely on a single holiday that stretches from halloween to the fucking epiphany.
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 07:14:03 PM
:lulz: i know right? Id love an actual war on christmas. I wouldnt have to listen to a shitty genre of music based entirely on a single holiday that stretches from halloween to the fucking epiphany.
Christmas music is the best weapon against Christmas. EVERYONE hates it.
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 07:07:47 PM
And by this i mean heterosexists.
Pretty sure we knew what you meant. :lol:
I actually intend to put out a solo christmas album next winter. Oh yes.
On the 254th day of christmas my true love gave to me....
Hmm. Might have to be a triple album just to fit that idea in.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 06:35:51 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on May 11, 2010, 08:57:56 PM
Actually, now it's LGBTQQIA.
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, and Allies.
Requesting an update on the proper terminology. I can't keep up.
Personally, I try to avoid lumping so many disparate identifiers together.
Someone who is relationship queer doesn't automatically have a lot in common with someone who is gender queer, and both may feel alienated by someone who is gay and monogamous and therefore has achieved a higher level of social acceptance. Someone who is transgender may identify as heterosexual.
People are too fucking complicated to pigeonhole into a string of letters.
In general, I am seeing "Queer and queer friendly" or, simply, "Alternative Lifestyles" being used, and while I find the term "Lifestyle" a little questionable because it just sounds so trivially optional, like my organic composting recycling lifestyle, I also kind of feel like, WTF ever works.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 07:17:30 PM
People are too fucking complicated to pigeonhole into a string of letters.
Yeah, that's sort of where I was going. :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 07:06:35 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 07:05:16 PM
Although there are probably Pride parades that do exclude allies, I don't think there are very many.
I'd think we'd hear baggers crowing over it if that had ever happened.
This is true.
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 07:05:51 PM
Oh definitely. Heterosexuals in fact dont get excluded. But it would just be kind of funny to hear them want to be part of the alphabet soup on account of their persecution of the majority complexes.
:lulz: I hadn't thought of that. God. I want to punch those people so much.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 07:09:06 PM
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 07:05:51 PM
Oh definitely. Heterosexuals in fact dont get excluded. But it would just be kind of funny to hear them want to be part of the alphabet soup on account of their persecution of the majority complexes.
Oh, yeah, I love that shit. "I AM NO LONGER ALLOWED TO FUCK PEOPLE OVER. PITY ME, FOR I AM PERSECUTED." Seriously. Not being allowed to fire someone for being Gay is totally just like being shoved into a gas chamber.
:lulz:
It's like listening to that fucko Bill O'Reilly whimpering about The War on Christmas, because people can't seem to get it into their heads that Jesus was all about mass consumerism and forced conformity.
Those are the people who need to be slapped repeatedly.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 07:11:51 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 07:05:16 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I think it SHOULD be dropped, and replaced with GET OUT OF MY FACE, MY ORIENTATION IS NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS, accompanied by a swift kick in the ass.
Seriously. The fact that this sort of thing is even relevant is an indictment on a nation that pretends to be "free". And Reverend Rick Warren can kiss my straight ass until it develops blisters.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, here. If we can't have a word to describe certain categories of people, we can't explain the social circumstances that create problems for them. We can't protect them from hate crimes and discrimination. (and I think asking about pronouns is enormously important. Some people, like Kai and I, don't care which ones others use for us, but it can be
extremely upsetting for other people to be mislabeled because it's an issue of respecting a hugely key part of their identities).
Oh, certainly it is an indictment of the US that this is a fucking issue. But it's going to continue to be an issue unless we actively work to make it
not an issue (whether this is just raising one's kids to not give a fuck whether a person is a he, a she, or a zhe, or being a politician who writes equality legislation). To do so, we need to be able to label these people so it can stop being an issue. We can talk about dropping the acronyms when one in twelve trans* women is not a murder victim.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 07:17:30 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 06:35:51 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on May 11, 2010, 08:57:56 PM
Actually, now it's LGBTQQIA.
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, and Allies.
Requesting an update on the proper terminology. I can't keep up.
Personally, I try to avoid lumping so many disparate identifiers together.
Someone who is relationship queer doesn't automatically have a lot in common with someone who is gender queer, and both may feel alienated by someone who is gay and monogamous and therefore has achieved a higher level of social acceptance. Someone who is transgender may identify as heterosexual.
People are too fucking complicated to pigeonhole into a string of letters.
In general, I am seeing "Queer and queer friendly" or, simply, "Alternative Lifestyles" being used, and while I find the term "Lifestyle" a little questionable because it just sounds so trivially optional, like my organic composting recycling lifestyle, I also kind of feel like, WTF ever works.
Oh, I agree people are too complex to be lumped together in a string of letters because that letter is just a part of who they are, not the whole (and if a person expresses displeasure with that lumpage, I'm certainly going to respect it). But the issues that we/they face are often similar enough that for certain purposes, like legal ones or removing biases in society, I tend to think it's acceptable to lump us all together. But, hmm, I'll think about it some more.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 07:24:53 PM
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, here. If we can't have a word to describe certain categories of people, we can't explain the social circumstances that create problems for them.
Nor can they be
special, I suppose. Thing is, I don't think there's a single person in America that doesn't understand the social penalties for being "non-traditional"...Even the people that gleefully inflict those penalties.
QuoteWe can't protect them from hate crimes and discrimination.
Sure we can. I'm not saying we give up the descriptions when appropriate (say, in a criminal investigation), I'm saying the acronym and the rather aggressive self-labelling can go.
Quote(and I think asking about pronouns is enormously important. Some people, like Kai and I, don't care which ones others use for us, but it can be extremely upsetting for other people to be mislabeled because it's an issue of respecting a hugely key part of their identities).
Then that's a problem in their heads, not mine.
QuoteOh, certainly it is an indictment on the US that this is a fucking issue. But it's going to continue to be an issue unless we actively work to make it not an issue (whether this is just raising one's kids to not give a fuck whether a person is a he, a she, or a zhe, or being a politician who writes equality legislation). To do so, we need to be able to label these people so it can stop being an issue. We can talk about dropping the acronyms when one in twelve trans* women is not a murder victim.
The way you make it not an issue is to A) Legislate mandated protections, and B) Make those who get nuts about it look just as marginalized as they are. The whole country is swinging left right now, momentum can be a hell of a lot more effective than self-imposing a label on yourself that ENFORCES the rather minor differences involved. Labeling serves only two purposes: First, to shove people in convenient boxes so that they can be persecuted more effectively, and second, to make the labeled people feel special or in fact persecuted.
Labeling will not stop a single trans person from being murdered.
I checked in at my schools to see what the clubs are called; PCC has a Queer Alliance, and PSU has the Queer Resource Center and Q Club.
I think that it's probably pretty safe/inoffensive to simply use "Queer" or "Non-traditional" to refer to whatever falls outside of the dominant social norm.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 07:47:06 PM
I checked in at my schools to see what the clubs are called; PCC has a Queer Alliance, and PSU has the Queer Resource Center and Q Club.
I think that it's probably pretty safe/inoffensive to simply use "Queer" or "Non-traditional" to refer to whatever falls outside of the dominant social norm.
Non-traditional seems like it would be the way to go.
In what might be seen as a bit of a contradiction (but isn't), I am all about the pride parade, because it desensitizes people to the existence of Gays, etc. It's easy to hate people you've never
seen. Once they're PEOPLE, it's harder to hate.
Which is one of my three objections to using labels. They classify and dehumanize.
And I view that as being VERY important, as the father of a non-traditional child in a town full of self-righteous Calvinists.
There's an event center down on Mississippi that's simply called "Q". Planned Parenthood hosts a lot of fundraising events there, but it's primarily a venue for queer community events.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 07:50:47 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 07:47:06 PM
I checked in at my schools to see what the clubs are called; PCC has a Queer Alliance, and PSU has the Queer Resource Center and Q Club.
I think that it's probably pretty safe/inoffensive to simply use "Queer" or "Non-traditional" to refer to whatever falls outside of the dominant social norm.
Non-traditional seems like it would be the way to go.
In what might be seen as a bit of a contradiction (but isn't), I am all about the pride parade, because it desensitizes people to the existence of Gays, etc. It's easy to hate people you've never seen. Once they're PEOPLE, it's harder to hate.
Which is one of my three objections to using labels. They classify and dehumanize.
And I view that as being VERY important, as the father of a non-traditional child in a town full of self-righteous Calvinists.
I think that labels are useful, but I also think that they are far too frequently mistaken for identity. People getting burned up because someone mistakenly uses the wrong pronoun or label for them just strikes me as immature and foolish. It's like a straight man being offended because he's mistaken for gay, or like me being offended because people assume I don't have kids.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 07:33:13 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 07:24:53 PM
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, here. If we can't have a word to describe certain categories of people, we can't explain the social circumstances that create problems for them.
Nor can they be special, I suppose. Thing is, I don't think there's a single person in America that doesn't understand the social penalties for being "non-traditional"...Even the people that gleefully inflict those penalties.
It's not really about being special, at least for most people, I think. There are probably spechul snowflakes, but I've never met one. We'd really rather be treated with the same respect as everyone else.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 07:33:13 PM
QuoteWe can't protect them from hate crimes and discrimination.
Sure we can. I'm not saying we give up the descriptions when appropriate (say, in a criminal investigation), I'm saying the acronym and the rather aggressive self-labelling can go.
People who are persecuted tend to start to wear whatever it is that causes them to be persecuted as a badge of honor. In a society hell bent on making you fit into their pre-defined boxes, refusing to be ashamed, etc. is an act of defiance.
There's also the thing where these things are important ways people see themselves. This because even more apparent to the person when what they
are isn't the norm.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 07:33:13 PM
Quote(and I think asking about pronouns is enormously important. Some people, like Kai and I, don't care which ones others use for us, but it can be extremely upsetting for other people to be mislabeled because it's an issue of respecting a hugely key part of their identities).
Then that's a problem in their heads, not mine.
:? Would you refuse to call me a "they" if I asked you to? Or if a trans gal asked you to call her a "her"? It's really that simple, respecting people's identities.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 07:33:13 PM
QuoteOh, certainly it is an indictment on the US that this is a fucking issue. But it's going to continue to be an issue unless we actively work to make it not an issue (whether this is just raising one's kids to not give a fuck whether a person is a he, a she, or a zhe, or being a politician who writes equality legislation). To do so, we need to be able to label these people so it can stop being an issue. We can talk about dropping the acronyms when one in twelve trans* women is not a murder victim.
The way you make it not an issue is to A) Legislate mandated protections, and B) Make those who get nuts about it look just as marginalized as they are. The whole country is swinging left right now, momentum can be a hell of a lot more effective than self-imposing a label on yourself that ENFORCES the rather minor differences involved. Labeling serves only two purposes: First, to shove people in convenient boxes so that they can be persecuted more effectively, and second, to make the labeled people feel special or in fact persecuted.
Labeling will not stop a single trans person from being murdered.
A and B, 100% agreed.
These groups were persecuted before there was a label, Roger. Labels can be words to describe an identity, and people's identities are important. Would you take away words a person uses to describe themselves?
I'm not saying it will. I'm saying labels can protect people legally, and I'm saying they have a place in describing people in specific contexts (ie, a study examining how many people who defy gender expectations are homeless/suffer housing instability - "transgender" is the word for gender-defiers). I'm also saying some people use the word to explain themselves, both to themselves and to others. I'm rather strongly against taking away people's words.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 07:56:34 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 07:50:47 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 07:47:06 PM
I checked in at my schools to see what the clubs are called; PCC has a Queer Alliance, and PSU has the Queer Resource Center and Q Club.
I think that it's probably pretty safe/inoffensive to simply use "Queer" or "Non-traditional" to refer to whatever falls outside of the dominant social norm.
Non-traditional seems like it would be the way to go.
In what might be seen as a bit of a contradiction (but isn't), I am all about the pride parade, because it desensitizes people to the existence of Gays, etc. It's easy to hate people you've never seen. Once they're PEOPLE, it's harder to hate.
Which is one of my three objections to using labels. They classify and dehumanize.
And I view that as being VERY important, as the father of a non-traditional child in a town full of self-righteous Calvinists.
I think that labels are useful, but I also think that they are far too frequently mistaken for identity. People getting burned up because someone mistakenly uses the wrong pronoun or label for them just strikes me as immature and foolish. It's like a straight man being offended because he's mistaken for gay, or like me being offended because people assume I don't have kids.
Hmm, when I use them, I'm using them to describe identities. Not as identities, per se. It's like a post-it note on a box - the box is that facet of a person's identity, the post-it note is the word they use to describe it.
I'm also gonna note that there's a subculture that has sprung up with these things.
I shall have to think about the dehumanizing argument. I see it, but I'm not entirely sure if I agree.
Also, ftr, I prefer "queer" to non-traditional when it comes to talking about me. Queer comes with ideas that I very strong agree with. It's also a reclaimed word, and I am all in favor of saying FUCK YOU to people who want me to fit their boxes.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
You are seriously suggesting that every time I meet a new person I should ask them what pronoun to call them by? Seems like right off the bat as trying to label someone. Might as well get their sexual preference, religion, political views, favorite foods, musical tastes etc. right up front, filled out on the proper forms as well, so I can fit them right away into a neat little box to place on the shelf. Can't I just address everyone as a person?
Speaking as a non-traditional sort of person, I couldn't give a fuck less what people call me or what pronouns they use or whatever else if you paid me to. It's no one's business but mine and whoever I'm canoodling with.
That being said I know a lot of people who are 'healthy plurals' who get offended if you don't notice when who's fronting changes and thus the pronouns. There are many people in my community who think the only way to achieve quality is to shove their differences down everyone's throat until the mainstream chokes and eventually swallows it.
And that's fine, if that's the route they wanna take. But there's going to be an associated struggle with that path. After all, the non-traditional folk didn't like being force fed bullshit all their lives until they grew a pair, did they? Why would someone else like it?
I think there should be one set of pronouns period. Forget gender distinction all together, in societal and work-related situations. Save it for medical and/or legal issues, if at all.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on December 13, 2012, 08:29:25 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
You are seriously suggesting that every time I meet a new person I should ask them what pronoun to call them by? Seems like right off the bat as trying to label someone. Might as well get their sexual preference, religion, political views, favorite foods, musical tastes etc. right up front, filled out on the proper forms as well, so I can fit them right away into a neat little box to place on the shelf. Can't I just address everyone as a person?
That was pretty much what I was getting at.
I also had my wife go off on a tangent about Japanese honorifics.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on December 13, 2012, 08:29:25 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
You are seriously suggesting that every time I meet a new person I should ask them what pronoun to call them by? Seems like right off the bat as trying to label someone. Might as well get their sexual preference, religion, political views, favorite foods, musical tastes etc. right up front, filled out on the proper forms as well, so I can fit them right away into a neat little box to place on the shelf. Can't I just address everyone as a person?
Yes, I am seriously suggesting that. And no, that's not the same at all. In fact, it's completely the reverse because not asking = speaking to them as if they were a 'he' or a 'she' - that's you labeling them, simply because you don't want to ask four extra words.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 08:31:28 PM
Speaking as a non-traditional sort of person, I couldn't give a fuck less what people call me or what pronouns they use or whatever else if you paid me to. It's no one's business but mine and whoever I'm canoodling with.
That being said I know a lot of people who are 'healthy plurals' who get offended if you don't notice when who's fronting changes and thus the pronouns. There are many people in my community who think the only way to achieve quality is to shove their differences down everyone's throat until the mainstream chokes and eventually swallows it.
And that's fine, if that's the route they wanna take. But there's going to be an associated struggle with that path. After all, the non-traditional folk didn't like being force fed bullshit all their lives until they grew a pair, did they? Why would someone else like it?
I think there should be one set of pronouns period. Forget gender distinction all together, in societal and work-related situations. Save it for medical and/or legal issues, if at all.
Finnish apparently has that.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:33:38 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on December 13, 2012, 08:29:25 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
You are seriously suggesting that every time I meet a new person I should ask them what pronoun to call them by? Seems like right off the bat as trying to label someone. Might as well get their sexual preference, religion, political views, favorite foods, musical tastes etc. right up front, filled out on the proper forms as well, so I can fit them right away into a neat little box to place on the shelf. Can't I just address everyone as a person?
Yes, I am seriously suggesting that. And no, that's not the same at all. In fact, it's completely the reverse because not asking = speaking to them as if they were a 'he' or a 'she' - that's you labeling them, simply because you don't want to ask four extra words.
Also also, it's not the same as asking about religion, sexuality, et al. It's asking them how to speak to and about them, that's all. That's pretty basic, imo.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:35:31 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:33:38 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on December 13, 2012, 08:29:25 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
You are seriously suggesting that every time I meet a new person I should ask them what pronoun to call them by? Seems like right off the bat as trying to label someone. Might as well get their sexual preference, religion, political views, favorite foods, musical tastes etc. right up front, filled out on the proper forms as well, so I can fit them right away into a neat little box to place on the shelf. Can't I just address everyone as a person?
Yes, I am seriously suggesting that. And no, that's not the same at all. In fact, it's completely the reverse because not asking = speaking to them as if they were a 'he' or a 'she' - that's you labeling them, simply because you don't want to ask four extra words.
Also also, it's not the same as asking about religion, sexuality, et al. It's asking them how to speak to and about them, that's all. That's pretty basic, imo.
So I should ask every commissioned officer I interact with whether to call them "sir" or "ma'am"?
I would very much like to say yes, but trans* soldiers weren't covered by the DADT repeal. So, no, don't. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't out them, because I think you're a good person, but nevertheless.
I'm gonna use the pronoun they're presenting.
The drag queen is a she
The drag king is a he
The femme gay man is a he
The butch lesbian is a she
The MtoF trans is a she
The FtoM trans is a he
And if they're somewhere in the middle, when I'm introduced I'll go by biology first, because I know they're going to end up telling me what to call them eventually.
:lulz: I have people I've been friends with since I was in the single digit age bracket I've never told. I don't know that I'll ever tell them I'd prefer 'they'. But if someone asks me up front, I'm probably going to tell them.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:11:30 PMLabels can be words to describe an identity, and people's identities are important. Would you take away words a person uses to describe themselves?
Uh, labels are words to describe a person's
attributes.Labels are not an identity. The whole reason for oppression and persecution in the first place is the substitution of labels for individual human identity.
And asking everyone you meet what
pronoun they prefer is absurd. I'm not going to do it, and honestly, if someone asked me, I would tell them to pick one. If someone obviously presents as a man or a woman, I'll use the pronoun for what they obviously present as and they can correct me if they feel like it. If someone is really that ambiguous I'll either ask them, just use their name, or use whatever pronoun seems contextually appropriate and they can correct me if they feel like it.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:11:30 PM
Hmm, when I use them, I'm using them to describe identities. Not as identities, per se. It's like a post-it note on a box - the box is that facet of a person's identity, the post-it note is the word they use to describe it.
I'm also gonna note that there's a subculture that has sprung up with these things.
I shall have to think about the dehumanizing argument. I see it, but I'm not entirely sure if I agree.
I've been part of that subculture for longer than you've been breathing.
Shit, it's not like I specified to
PD, people who I am willing to trust not to out me, until literally just now. Just something to think about with other people. I might tell a person I prefer "she" if I don't know them, but if they've asked, at least I know I can probably tell them someday.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 08:49:37 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:11:30 PMLabels can be words to describe an identity, and people's identities are important. Would you take away words a person uses to describe themselves?
Uh, labels are words to describe a person's attributes.
Labels are not an identity. The whole reason for oppression and persecution in the first place is the substitution of labels for individual human identity.
And asking everyone you meet what pronoun they prefer is absurd. I'm not going to do it, and honestly, if someone asked me, I would tell them to pick one. If someone obviously presents as a man or a woman, I'll use the pronoun for what they obviously present as and they can correct me if they feel like it. If someone is really that ambiguous I'll either ask them, just use their name, or use whatever pronoun seems contextually appropriate and they can correct me if they feel like it.
Okay, I stand word corrected. That's what I meant.
I never said they were an identity. I said labels are ways a person might use to describe themselves.
I don't see why it's absurd, but okay. I prefer 'they', btw.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 08:51:47 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:11:30 PM
Hmm, when I use them, I'm using them to describe identities. Not as identities, per se. It's like a post-it note on a box - the box is that facet of a person's identity, the post-it note is the word they use to describe it.
I'm also gonna note that there's a subculture that has sprung up with these things.
I shall have to think about the dehumanizing argument. I see it, but I'm not entirely sure if I agree.
I've been part of that subculture for longer than you've been breathing.
Okay?
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
There are ALL KINDS of things you could say to a person when you first meet them. That just seems unnecessary, invasive, and weird. Why not also ask them what race they are? Or maybe what their sexual preference is? Four little words. It's not so hard.
It's just weird and kind of creepy.
I swear to god if anyone ever asks me what pronoun I prefer I'm going to reply with "Why does it matter to you?"
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:54:04 PM
Shit, it's not like I specified to PD, people who I am willing to trust not to out me, until literally just now. Just something to think about with other people. I might tell a person I prefer "she" if I don't know them, but if they've asked, at least I know I can probably tell them someday.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 08:49:37 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:11:30 PMLabels can be words to describe an identity, and people's identities are important. Would you take away words a person uses to describe themselves?
Uh, labels are words to describe a person's attributes.
Labels are not an identity. The whole reason for oppression and persecution in the first place is the substitution of labels for individual human identity.
And asking everyone you meet what pronoun they prefer is absurd. I'm not going to do it, and honestly, if someone asked me, I would tell them to pick one. If someone obviously presents as a man or a woman, I'll use the pronoun for what they obviously present as and they can correct me if they feel like it. If someone is really that ambiguous I'll either ask them, just use their name, or use whatever pronoun seems contextually appropriate and they can correct me if they feel like it.
Okay, I stand word corrected. That's what I meant.
I never said they were an identity. I said labels are ways a person might use to describe themselves.
I don't see why it's absurd, but okay. I prefer 'they', btw.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 08:51:47 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:11:30 PM
Hmm, when I use them, I'm using them to describe identities. Not as identities, per se. It's like a post-it note on a box - the box is that facet of a person's identity, the post-it note is the word they use to describe it.
I'm also gonna note that there's a subculture that has sprung up with these things.
I shall have to think about the dehumanizing argument. I see it, but I'm not entirely sure if I agree.
I've been part of that subculture for longer than you've been breathing.
Okay?
Just saying. You tend to make assumptions about "informing" people and it comes off a bit insulting. I find it laughable when you do it, because you're just that young and that naive, but I know it pisses some people off.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:42:09 PM
I would very much like to say yes, but trans* soldiers weren't covered by the DADT repeal. So, no, don't. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't out them, because I think you're a good person, but nevertheless.
Well I wouldn't, but my point is that in the context of the military, people are operating under the assumption that a person's gender is reflected by their chosen appearance. My issue with "what are your pronouns?" isn't the "terrible burden" of being expected to accommodate a queer's preference for address, because that is a stupidly flimsy excuse, it is that seems unnecessary to preface every interaction with a new person with those 4 words. To me, if someone feels that their preferred gender of address is in someway different from how they were addressed or how they are appearing at the time, then that person would have no trouble in mentioning that after the first exchange.
That being said, I do think that gendered modes of address may be more at fault in this.
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:32:44 PM
That was pretty much what I was getting at.
I also had my wife go off on a tangent about Japanese honorifics.
Oh I know, I pretty much just said the same thing in a slightly different way.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:33:38 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on December 13, 2012, 08:29:25 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
You are seriously suggesting that every time I meet a new person I should ask them what pronoun to call them by? Seems like right off the bat as trying to label someone. Might as well get their sexual preference, religion, political views, favorite foods, musical tastes etc. right up front, filled out on the proper forms as well, so I can fit them right away into a neat little box to place on the shelf. Can't I just address everyone as a person?
Yes, I am seriously suggesting that. And no, that's not the same at all. In fact, it's completely the reverse because not asking = speaking to them as if they were a 'he' or a 'she' - that's you labeling them, simply because you don't want to ask four extra words.
No, it's speaking to them as a human being. I can go through many a conversation without using a pronoun and generally refer to people either by their name or they anyway. The only assumption I make with "he" or "she" is whether they have a penis or a vagina and as a whole, I could care less about that (we are breaking down gender roles aren't we? Saying "she" doesn't give me the assumption that someone spends all their time in the kitchen any more than "he" means someone spends all their time watching football and pounding beers with their boys). If someone's whole existance is wrapped up in whether they're accidentally referred to as a "he" or "she", well I feel sorry for them. The same as getting your identity wrapped up in any other label. I'm one of the most overly-sensitive-about-other-people's-feelings that I know, but give me a break. If I happen to inadvertently offend someone and they can politely correct me, I'll adjust accordingly, but beyond that I am going to keep dealing with people as people and do my best not to shove them into boxes.
And a label is a label, no matter what you want to call it.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 13, 2012, 08:44:40 PM
I'm gonna use the pronoun they're presenting.
The drag queen is a she
The drag king is a he
The femme gay man is a he
The butch lesbian is a she
The MtoF trans is a she
The FtoM trans is a he
And if they're somewhere in the middle, when I'm introduced I'll go by biology first, because I know they're going to end up telling me what to call them eventually.
Or put more simply, this.
I'm just going to start referring to everyone as "it", and they can suck it up. :lulz:
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 08:54:52 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
There are ALL KINDS of things you could say to a person when you first meet them. That just seems unnecessary, invasive, and weird. Why not also ask them what race they are? Or maybe what their sexual preference is? Four little words. It's not so hard.
It's just weird and kind of creepy.
I swear to god if anyone ever asks me what pronoun I prefer I'm going to reply with "Why does it matter to you?"
Okay? I'd prefer it, actually, but I guess I'm just weird.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 08:56:34 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:54:04 PM
Shit, it's not like I specified to PD, people who I am willing to trust not to out me, until literally just now. Just something to think about with other people. I might tell a person I prefer "she" if I don't know them, but if they've asked, at least I know I can probably tell them someday.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 08:49:37 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:11:30 PMLabels can be words to describe an identity, and people's identities are important. Would you take away words a person uses to describe themselves?
Uh, labels are words to describe a person's attributes.
Labels are not an identity. The whole reason for oppression and persecution in the first place is the substitution of labels for individual human identity.
And asking everyone you meet what pronoun they prefer is absurd. I'm not going to do it, and honestly, if someone asked me, I would tell them to pick one. If someone obviously presents as a man or a woman, I'll use the pronoun for what they obviously present as and they can correct me if they feel like it. If someone is really that ambiguous I'll either ask them, just use their name, or use whatever pronoun seems contextually appropriate and they can correct me if they feel like it.
Okay, I stand word corrected. That's what I meant.
I never said they were an identity. I said labels are ways a person might use to describe themselves.
I don't see why it's absurd, but okay. I prefer 'they', btw.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 08:51:47 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:11:30 PM
Hmm, when I use them, I'm using them to describe identities. Not as identities, per se. It's like a post-it note on a box - the box is that facet of a person's identity, the post-it note is the word they use to describe it.
I'm also gonna note that there's a subculture that has sprung up with these things.
I shall have to think about the dehumanizing argument. I see it, but I'm not entirely sure if I agree.
I've been part of that subculture for longer than you've been breathing.
Okay?
Just saying. You tend to make assumptions about "informing" people and it comes off a bit insulting. I find it laughable when you do it, because you're just that young and that naive, but I know it pisses some people off.
I certainly don't mean to come off that way. And I know everyone knows about that, I just brought it up because I think people sometimes don't think about it in the context of these discussions.
I'll try to be more aware of how I sound.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on December 13, 2012, 08:58:30 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:32:44 PM
That was pretty much what I was getting at.
I also had my wife go off on a tangent about Japanese honorifics.
Oh I know, I pretty much just said the same thing in a slightly different way.
I know you knew.
Also ITT PD saying the same thing in 50 different ways.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 08:54:52 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
There are ALL KINDS of things you could say to a person when you first meet them. That just seems unnecessary, invasive, and weird. Why not also ask them what race they are? Or maybe what their sexual preference is? Four little words. It's not so hard.
It's just weird and kind of creepy.
I swear to god if anyone ever asks me what pronoun I prefer I'm going to reply with "Why does it matter to you?"
This reminds me of a funny story.
Last time I hung out with a group of all lesbians and trans and whatever it was a party of sorts that I'd been tricked into. I hate parties. And surprises. So the hostess walks up, plays a five minute round of tonsil hockey with the friend I showed up with, also a lesbian, then turns to me and says HI!!! HoW ARE YOU!?!??! I HOPE YOU DON'T MIND, I'M JUST REALLY AFFECTIONATE!@! DO YOU PREFER MALE OR FEMALE PRONOUNS?
I told her it was dealer's choice. She immediately quit being loud and bubbly and glared at me. Then she said I had to choose. I told her I didn't, and shrugged. She asked me why. I told her I didn't care. It didn't matter to me.
The music died and pins were afraid to drop.
Then someone said they felt disrespected by my complete apathy to their ETERNAL STRUGGLE and the hostess asked me to leave. I saluted and walked out, slapping my friend on the back and whistling a merry tune as I went.
I wasn't deliberately being difficult. I just really don't give a fuck. And that's disrespectful.
Wait....
what does referring to an individual as 'they' indicate in this context?
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:00:07 PM
I'm just going to start referring to everyone as "it", and they can suck it up. :lulz:
That's why I just do a lot of grunting and pointing. And using "dude." It is also extremely easy to have a conversation without using pronouns and other gendered words to address people.
Also I have to say that I have a HUGE, I mean ENORMOUS, philosophical problem, as in outright anger, towards women who decide that their response to oppressive gender roles and not identifying with the Western gender role assigned to "woman" is simply to declare themselves not female. It, to me, is like avoiding tackling racial oppression by passing for white. It's a cop-out, a side-step, and an abandonment.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on December 13, 2012, 08:58:30 PM
No, it's speaking to them as a human being. I can go through many a conversation without using a pronoun and generally refer to people either by their name or they anyway. The only assumption I make with "he" or "she" is whether they have a penis or a vagina and as a whole, I could care less about that (we are breaking down gender roles aren't we? Saying "she" doesn't give me the assumption that someone spends all their time in the kitchen any more than "he" means someone spends all their time watching football and pounding beers with their boys). If someone's whole existance is wrapped up in whether they're accidentally referred to as a "he" or "she", well I feel sorry for them. The same as getting your identity wrapped up in any other label. I'm one of the most overly-sensitive-about-other-people's-feelings that I know, but give me a break. If I happen to inadvertently offend someone and they can politely correct me, I'll adjust accordingly, but beyond that I am going to keep dealing with people as people and do my best not to shove them into boxes.
And a label is a label, no matter what you want to call it.
I'm not offended when people misgender me (although it gets kind of wearying after a while, tbh) UNLESS I have told them I would prefer a specific pronoun (and even then, I'll cut people slack the first couple times they call me a 'she' because it's kind of unusual). Because then it's deliberate.
FTR, I haven't actually done this. A) I don't meet new people all the time, B ) it's not really a good idea around here, C) I don't want to out people before they're ready because this shit is pretty sensitive. I'm just saying I'd
like to see it.
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 09:05:32 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:00:07 PM
I'm just going to start referring to everyone as "it", and they can suck it up. :lulz:
That's why I just do a lot of grunting and pointing. And using "dude." It is also extremely easy to have a conversation without using pronouns and other gendered words to address people.
:lulz: "dude" is a very useful word, as long as you don't inadvertently piss off an immature special snowflake who's looking for something to be offended about. Which has happened to me. However, most people recognize it as a gender-neutral term referring to another human being.
I had a person in my sociology class (one of my favorite classmates, in terms of being intelligent and articulate) who I still have no idea whether or what gender it goes by. I just call it by its name, because whatever.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:07:13 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 09:05:32 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:00:07 PM
I'm just going to start referring to everyone as "it", and they can suck it up. :lulz:
That's why I just do a lot of grunting and pointing. And using "dude." It is also extremely easy to have a conversation without using pronouns and other gendered words to address people.
:lulz: "dude" is a very useful word, as long as you don't inadvertently piss off an immature special snowflake who's looking for something to be offended about. Which has happened to me. However, most people recognize it as a gender-neutral term referring to another human being.
I had a person in my sociology class (one of my favorite classmates, in terms of being intelligent and articulate) who I still have no idea whether or what gender it goes by. I just call it by its name, because whatever.
'it'
:lol:
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 08:54:52 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
There are ALL KINDS of things you could say to a person when you first meet them. That just seems unnecessary, invasive, and weird. Why not also ask them what race they are? Or maybe what their sexual preference is? Four little words. It's not so hard.
It's just weird and kind of creepy.
I swear to god if anyone ever asks me what pronoun I prefer I'm going to reply with "Why does it matter to you?"
This reminds me of a funny story.
Last time I hung out with a group of all lesbians and trans and whatever it was a party of sorts that I'd been tricked into. I hate parties. And surprises. So the hostess walks up, plays a five minute round of tonsil hockey with the friend I showed up with, also a lesbian, then turns to me and says HI!!! HoW ARE YOU!?!??! I HOPE YOU DON'T MIND, I'M JUST REALLY AFFECTIONATE!@! DO YOU PREFER MALE OR FEMALE PRONOUNS?
I told her it was dealer's choice. She immediately quit being loud and bubbly and glared at me. Then she said I had to choose. I told her I didn't, and shrugged. She asked me why. I told her I didn't care. It didn't matter to me.
The music died and pins were afraid to drop.
Then someone said they felt disrespected by my complete apathy to their ETERNAL STRUGGLE and the hostess asked me to leave. I saluted and walked out, slapping my friend on the back and whistling a merry tune as I went.
I wasn't deliberately being difficult. I just really don't give a fuck. And that's disrespectful.
What. What an asshole.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:05:47 PM
Also I have to say that I have a HUGE, I mean ENORMOUS, philosophical problem, as in outright anger, towards women who decide that their response to oppressive gender roles and not identifying with the Western gender role assigned to "woman" is simply to declare themselves not female. It, to me, is like avoiding tackling racial oppression by passing for white. It's a cop-out, a side-step, and an abandonment.
This isn't directed at me, is it? Because I'm female, there's no denying that. And I'm generally okay with it. But I'm not a woman, and I don't see how this would be an abandonment.
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on December 13, 2012, 09:04:36 PM
Wait....
what does referring to an individual as 'they' indicate in this context?
Gender neutrality? Uncertainty of a person's gender? Not wishing to specify?
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 08:54:52 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
There are ALL KINDS of things you could say to a person when you first meet them. That just seems unnecessary, invasive, and weird. Why not also ask them what race they are? Or maybe what their sexual preference is? Four little words. It's not so hard.
It's just weird and kind of creepy.
I swear to god if anyone ever asks me what pronoun I prefer I'm going to reply with "Why does it matter to you?"
This reminds me of a funny story.
Last time I hung out with a group of all lesbians and trans and whatever it was a party of sorts that I'd been tricked into. I hate parties. And surprises. So the hostess walks up, plays a five minute round of tonsil hockey with the friend I showed up with, also a lesbian, then turns to me and says HI!!! HoW ARE YOU!?!??! I HOPE YOU DON'T MIND, I'M JUST REALLY AFFECTIONATE!@! DO YOU PREFER MALE OR FEMALE PRONOUNS?
I told her it was dealer's choice. She immediately quit being loud and bubbly and glared at me. Then she said I had to choose. I told her I didn't, and shrugged. She asked me why. I told her I didn't care. It didn't matter to me.
The music died and pins were afraid to drop.
Then someone said they felt disrespected by my complete apathy to their ETERNAL STRUGGLE and the hostess asked me to leave. I saluted and walked out, slapping my friend on the back and whistling a merry tune as I went.
I wasn't deliberately being difficult. I just really don't give a fuck. And that's disrespectful.
And BAM, there you go. Opt out of the "labels are IMPORTANT!" and "THIS IS OUR STRUGGLE!" merry-go-round, and you WILL get shit on by people who have absorbed the dominant society attitude that IT'S IMPORTANT.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:07:13 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 09:05:32 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:00:07 PM
I'm just going to start referring to everyone as "it", and they can suck it up. :lulz:
That's why I just do a lot of grunting and pointing. And using "dude." It is also extremely easy to have a conversation without using pronouns and other gendered words to address people.
:lulz: "dude" is a very useful word, as long as you don't inadvertently piss off an immature special snowflake who's looking for something to be offended about. Which has happened to me.
If I ever run into someone who gets bent out shape over "dude" I shall unleash my drill sergeant voice on them while using words like 'boy' regardless of what gender they wish to be addressed by (because I avoid using any insults based on female attributes).
Incidentally I like to avoid using masculine attributes as positive descriptors of things pertaining to my martial arts study. The pollaxe is the most knightly weapon, why would I need to emphasis the manliness of it?
Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. :lol:
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
Incidentally, gay men can also be "she", but only when they're being FIERCE.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:11:36 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:05:47 PM
Also I have to say that I have a HUGE, I mean ENORMOUS, philosophical problem, as in outright anger, towards women who decide that their response to oppressive gender roles and not identifying with the Western gender role assigned to "woman" is simply to declare themselves not female. It, to me, is like avoiding tackling racial oppression by passing for white. It's a cop-out, a side-step, and an abandonment.
This isn't directed at me, is it? Because I'm female, there's no denying that. And I'm generally okay with it. But I'm not a woman, and I don't see how this would be an abandonment.
Oh, it totally is. Because "woman" as a gender construct is as fluid as the society that constructs it, and opting out doesn't reshape anything. See my argument regarding the requirement most hospitals have for MTF transsexuals to "live as a woman" for a year before they can qualify for surgery. What is "living as a woman"? As far as I can tell, I don't fit the criteria.
As far as I can tell, I piss people off because I don't act like a proper woman. But I'll fuck you all in the face a thousand times if you try to tell me I'm not, because I'd rather reshape the construct of what a woman is in our society than cop out by declaring myself not a woman.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:21:38 PM
As far as I can tell, I piss people off because I don't act like a proper woman. But I'll fuck you all in the face a thousand times if you try to tell me I'm not, because I'd rather reshape the construct of what a woman is in our society than cop out by declaring myself not a woman.
YOU GO, GIRL!
Wait... is "girl" okay?
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
They're everywhere. You just aren't looking under the right rocks. Granted, most of my friends I met online in the #nanowrimo chatroom OR are pagans that I met through my former coven.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:13:39 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 08:54:52 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
There are ALL KINDS of things you could say to a person when you first meet them. That just seems unnecessary, invasive, and weird. Why not also ask them what race they are? Or maybe what their sexual preference is? Four little words. It's not so hard.
It's just weird and kind of creepy.
I swear to god if anyone ever asks me what pronoun I prefer I'm going to reply with "Why does it matter to you?"
This reminds me of a funny story.
Last time I hung out with a group of all lesbians and trans and whatever it was a party of sorts that I'd been tricked into. I hate parties. And surprises. So the hostess walks up, plays a five minute round of tonsil hockey with the friend I showed up with, also a lesbian, then turns to me and says HI!!! HoW ARE YOU!?!??! I HOPE YOU DON'T MIND, I'M JUST REALLY AFFECTIONATE!@! DO YOU PREFER MALE OR FEMALE PRONOUNS?
I told her it was dealer's choice. She immediately quit being loud and bubbly and glared at me. Then she said I had to choose. I told her I didn't, and shrugged. She asked me why. I told her I didn't care. It didn't matter to me.
The music died and pins were afraid to drop.
Then someone said they felt disrespected by my complete apathy to their ETERNAL STRUGGLE and the hostess asked me to leave. I saluted and walked out, slapping my friend on the back and whistling a merry tune as I went.
I wasn't deliberately being difficult. I just really don't give a fuck. And that's disrespectful.
And BAM, there you go. Opt out of the "labels are IMPORTANT!" and "THIS IS OUR STRUGGLE!" merry-go-round, and you WILL get shit on by people who have absorbed the dominant society attitude that IT'S IMPORTANT.
I don't really understand that whole deal. Seems kind of Pink to me, so be so wrapped up in that as to not allow other people to have their choice.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:21:38 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:11:36 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:05:47 PM
Also I have to say that I have a HUGE, I mean ENORMOUS, philosophical problem, as in outright anger, towards women who decide that their response to oppressive gender roles and not identifying with the Western gender role assigned to "woman" is simply to declare themselves not female. It, to me, is like avoiding tackling racial oppression by passing for white. It's a cop-out, a side-step, and an abandonment.
This isn't directed at me, is it? Because I'm female, there's no denying that. And I'm generally okay with it. But I'm not a woman, and I don't see how this would be an abandonment.
Oh, it totally is. Because "woman" as a gender construct is as fluid as the society that constructs it, and opting out doesn't reshape anything. See my argument regarding the requirement most hospitals have for MTF transsexuals to "live as a woman" for a year before they can qualify for surgery. What is "living as a woman"? As far as I can tell, I don't fit the criteria.
As far as I can tell, I piss people off because I don't act like a proper woman. But I'll fuck you all in the face a thousand times if you try to tell me I'm not, because I'd rather reshape the construct of what a woman is in our society than cop out by declaring myself not a woman.
:| It's not be opting out of oppressive gender roles. It's that I happen to be gender fluid and right now, I do not remotely feel like a woman (which yes, is a construct, and "what is a woman" is a perfectly valid question that I don't have an answer to. I just know that I'm not a woman and being called one or being called feminine pronouns jangles all wrong). Talk to me in a couple years. Perhaps I'll feel like a gal then.
I don't really know how to explain it better than that, Nigel. It wasn't a conscious decision. "Oh, I'm not going to be a woman because I don't want to deal with an oppressive gender role" is not what happened. It was being referred to as a she or being called a girl/woman not fitting for years at a time (and then it fit for a few years; now it doesn't again. It will again in the future, quite probably).
ETA: frankly, it's jarring. It sounds weird to me. I catch on it every time I see myself called that.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:11:36 PM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on December 13, 2012, 09:04:36 PM
Wait....
what does referring to an individual as 'they' indicate in this context?
Gender neutrality? Uncertainty of a person's gender? Not wishing to specify?
oh, ok. i thought it was referencing plural use.
i'm kinda fuzzy on how you'd go about using it, though.
certainly, this isn't what you intend...
"Garbo has strong opinions on pronoun use. They is very passionate."
also, I had to reread this thread to remind myself the distinction between 'male', 'man', 'female', 'woman', 'sex', 'sexuality', 'gender', 'innersex gender', etc...
:lol:
"They are" is still appropriate, I think? I don't care too much either way, but "are" sounds more correct than "is".
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:21:38 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:11:36 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:05:47 PM
Also I have to say that I have a HUGE, I mean ENORMOUS, philosophical problem, as in outright anger, towards women who decide that their response to oppressive gender roles and not identifying with the Western gender role assigned to "woman" is simply to declare themselves not female. It, to me, is like avoiding tackling racial oppression by passing for white. It's a cop-out, a side-step, and an abandonment.
This isn't directed at me, is it? Because I'm female, there's no denying that. And I'm generally okay with it. But I'm not a woman, and I don't see how this would be an abandonment.
Oh, it totally is. Because "woman" as a gender construct is as fluid as the society that constructs it, and opting out doesn't reshape anything. See my argument regarding the requirement most hospitals have for MTF transsexuals to "live as a woman" for a year before they can qualify for surgery. What is "living as a woman"? As far as I can tell, I don't fit the criteria.
As far as I can tell, I piss people off because I don't act like a proper woman. But I'll fuck you all in the face a thousand times if you try to tell me I'm not, because I'd rather reshape the construct of what a woman is in our society than cop out by declaring myself not a woman.
See, this is something I spent a good three years thinking about. I do not feel like a chick. In all my dreams I'm a guy. When I wake up, I've got morning wood until I open my eyes :P I don't walk like a chick or talk like one - half of the people here still think I am a guy. :P - If I'd wear a binder or get my tits cut off, I'd pass 100% of the time as a male instead of the 50% I do now, without trying.
BUT. Given that I come from a very abusive childhood and family group and that I've been told my whole life I am 1.) automatically a whore because I am a female, and 2.) I disappointed the entire family forever because I'm my father's first child and I'm anatomically female, not male - how much of that baggage has shaped how I perceive things? And how much of the following beating and brainwashing shaped my dreams and how I act and whatever else?
I thought about it for years then decided it was one big nature or nurture argument that I didn't care about. I decided against gender reassignment surgery and pissed off all my trans friends. I decided I didn't care about pronouns and pissed off all my gender-fluid friends. It's still an interesting puzzle but it doesn't decide my identity or anything.
It's why I started telling people I was the cardboard cut-out of a gay, male, pizza delivery feline in the body of a bi, human female. But then the whole multiplicity/furry thing blew up and fuck that noise.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:24:15 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
They're everywhere. You just aren't looking under the right rocks. Granted, most of my friends I met online in the #nanowrimo chatroom OR are pagans that I met through my former coven.
Although CT has been a 'blue state' for a while, where I live is comically filled with Republicans. Mrs Mang & I have gay friends, but they're older, married couples and are, like ourselves, totally run of the mill. Maybe we're hanging with the wrong kind of lesbians?
The only transgendered people I've encountered in a very long time was a MtF wiccan in a local new age shop and the ambiguous dude in Starbucks once. Openly queer folk are not common in these parts.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 13, 2012, 09:22:55 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:21:38 PM
As far as I can tell, I piss people off because I don't act like a proper woman. But I'll fuck you all in the face a thousand times if you try to tell me I'm not, because I'd rather reshape the construct of what a woman is in our society than cop out by declaring myself not a woman.
YOU GO, GIRL!
Wait... is "girl" okay?
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:35:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:24:15 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
They're everywhere. You just aren't looking under the right rocks. Granted, most of my friends I met online in the #nanowrimo chatroom OR are pagans that I met through my former coven.
Although CT has been a 'blue state' for a while, where I live is comically filled with Republicans. Mrs Mang & I have gay friends, but they're older, married couples and are, like ourselves, totally run of the mill. Maybe we're hanging with the wrong kind of lesbians?
The only transgendered people I've encountered in a very long time was a MtF wiccan in a local new age shop and the ambiguous dude in Starbucks once. Openly queer folk are not common in these parts.
Go to Iowa City, Iowa and the Quad Cities, Iowa. I can guarantee you can walk down the street about three blocks and go WTF?!??! at least a dozen times.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 06:35:51 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on May 11, 2010, 08:57:56 PM
Actually, now it's LGBTQQIA.
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, and Allies.
Requesting an update on the proper terminology. I can't keep up.
:pokewithstick:
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:37:50 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:35:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:24:15 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
They're everywhere. You just aren't looking under the right rocks. Granted, most of my friends I met online in the #nanowrimo chatroom OR are pagans that I met through my former coven.
Although CT has been a 'blue state' for a while, where I live is comically filled with Republicans. Mrs Mang & I have gay friends, but they're older, married couples and are, like ourselves, totally run of the mill. Maybe we're hanging with the wrong kind of lesbians?
The only transgendered people I've encountered in a very long time was a MtF wiccan in a local new age shop and the ambiguous dude in Starbucks once. Openly queer folk are not common in these parts.
Go to Iowa City, Iowa and the Quad Cities, Iowa. I can guarantee you can walk down the street about three blocks and go WTF?!??! at least a dozen times.
Iowa? Really? Wow...
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. :lol: The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:40:14 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:37:50 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:35:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:24:15 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
They're everywhere. You just aren't looking under the right rocks. Granted, most of my friends I met online in the #nanowrimo chatroom OR are pagans that I met through my former coven.
Although CT has been a 'blue state' for a while, where I live is comically filled with Republicans. Mrs Mang & I have gay friends, but they're older, married couples and are, like ourselves, totally run of the mill. Maybe we're hanging with the wrong kind of lesbians?
The only transgendered people I've encountered in a very long time was a MtF wiccan in a local new age shop and the ambiguous dude in Starbucks once. Openly queer folk are not common in these parts.
Go to Iowa City, Iowa and the Quad Cities, Iowa. I can guarantee you can walk down the street about three blocks and go WTF?!??! at least a dozen times.
Iowa? Really? Wow...
I know. I wasn't expecting it either. Children of the corn? Yes. People walking around in rainbow thongs and knee-high glitter boots all year 'round? Not so much.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:16:13 PM
Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. :lol:
If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:42:29 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. :lol: The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.
Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:33:12 PM
"They are" is still appropriate, I think? I don't care too much either way, but "are" sounds more correct than "is".
Pronouns
and conjugation?
this is terribly confusing. (which i approve of, but cannot see as srs)
:lol:
*sigh* fine. Don't. Call me a "she". This is more trouble than it was worth.
(not mad at you, just frustrated)
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:46:04 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:16:13 PM
Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. :lol:
If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:42:29 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. :lol: The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.
Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.
I agree with you there. It's an interesting discussion, but it's counter-productive to get pissed off about it. ( I thought I was the only person who used 'het up', :D )
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:49:53 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:46:04 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:16:13 PM
Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. :lol:
If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:42:29 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. :lol: The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.
Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.
I agree with you there. It's an interesting discussion, but it's counter-productive to get pissed off about it. ( I thought I was the only person who used 'het up', :D )
:)
Nah, lol. It's not something I grew up using, but I like the sound of the words. :D
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:34:14 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:21:38 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:11:36 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:05:47 PM
Also I have to say that I have a HUGE, I mean ENORMOUS, philosophical problem, as in outright anger, towards women who decide that their response to oppressive gender roles and not identifying with the Western gender role assigned to "woman" is simply to declare themselves not female. It, to me, is like avoiding tackling racial oppression by passing for white. It's a cop-out, a side-step, and an abandonment.
This isn't directed at me, is it? Because I'm female, there's no denying that. And I'm generally okay with it. But I'm not a woman, and I don't see how this would be an abandonment.
Oh, it totally is. Because "woman" as a gender construct is as fluid as the society that constructs it, and opting out doesn't reshape anything. See my argument regarding the requirement most hospitals have for MTF transsexuals to "live as a woman" for a year before they can qualify for surgery. What is "living as a woman"? As far as I can tell, I don't fit the criteria.
As far as I can tell, I piss people off because I don't act like a proper woman. But I'll fuck you all in the face a thousand times if you try to tell me I'm not, because I'd rather reshape the construct of what a woman is in our society than cop out by declaring myself not a woman.
See, this is something I spent a good three years thinking about. I do not feel like a chick. In all my dreams I'm a guy. When I wake up, I've got morning wood until I open my eyes :P I don't walk like a chick or talk like one - half of the people here still think I am a guy. :P - If I'd wear a binder or get my tits cut off, I'd pass 100% of the time as a male instead of the 50% I do now, without trying.
BUT. Given that I come from a very abusive childhood and family group and that I've been told my whole life I am 1.) automatically a whore because I am a female, and 2.) I disappointed the entire family forever because I'm my father's first child and I'm anatomically female, not male - how much of that baggage has shaped how I perceive things? And how much of the following beating and brainwashing shaped my dreams and how I act and whatever else?
I thought about it for years then decided it was one big nature or nurture argument that I didn't care about. I decided against gender reassignment surgery and pissed off all my trans friends. I decided I didn't care about pronouns and pissed off all my gender-fluid friends. It's still an interesting puzzle but it doesn't decide my identity or anything.
It's why I started telling people I was the cardboard cut-out of a gay, male, pizza delivery feline in the body of a bi, human female. But then the whole multiplicity/furry thing blew up and fuck that noise.
Yeah, I used to tell people that I'm an effeminate bi man in the body of a bi woman. :lulz:
When I was young most people assumed I was a boy. I wore my hair buzzed until I was 18.
I was pretty confused by this for a long time; I like my body the way it is, but I don't "feel feminine". And then I realized that it's part of the social pressure to fit into a binary; the dissonance is not between my body and my personality, but between societal expectations of someone with my body, and my personality. That's when I decided, FUCK THAT, my womanhood is what
I say it is.I AM THE BOSS OF WHAT A WOMAN LOOKS AND ACTS LIKE. And so are you. And so is any non-traditional female who steps up and owns the title of "woman". Even if they have a dick.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:46:04 PM
Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.
To be fair, it seems like you are making it a big deal by insinuating that it is insensitive/making things worse/impolite not to ask someone up front what pronouns they want to be called by. If that's not what you meant, it's not how it came out.
If someone says they prefer to be addressed one way or another, I'll do my best to do that, but other than that, I have no interest in making a big deal of something that shouldn't be. It's just another way to divide people.
As for the woman/female thing...well I'm biologically female and I consider myself a woman, but I don't necessarily fit all the aspects of what a woman is "supposed" to be, which I assume is somewhere along the lines of - submissive, in the kitchen, pooping out babies? The women I know, have such varied tastes, styles, hobbies, interests, behaviors, that don't necessarily fit in one box or another, but I'm sure would still consider themselves women. Like Nigel said, the act of declaring oneself not a woman because they don't fit in certain lines, only seems to further reinforce the fact that there is a way that "Real Women" are supposed to act, rather than the fact that being a woman doesn't have a specific set of requirements.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:46:04 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:16:13 PM
Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. :lol:
If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:42:29 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. :lol: The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.
Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.
Are you accusing me of being indirect? :lol: Bitch please. It's a general peeve that I already have, and not one that was invented by your existence. If you fit the bill, feel free to take offense at my opinion about it. But note that I was talking specifically about "here" as in Portland, where I live, so unless you live here I wasn't talking about you.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:49:53 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:46:04 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:16:13 PM
Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. :lol:
If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:42:29 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. :lol: The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.
Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.
I agree with you there. It's an interesting discussion, but it's counter-productive to get pissed off about it. ( I thought I was the only person who used 'het up', :D )
OK... show of hands... how many people are going to assume I'm implying
them when I talk about the general environment where I live? :lol:
Maybe read what I said:
QuoteThey are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. :lol: The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.
I said, replying to Mangrove's comment about there not being many queers where he is, that queers are very common here, yet it's not an obstacle course because most people are really relaxed about it... with the exception of the rare person who, typically, seems mostly to be looking for trouble and having a hard time finding it.
If I was talking about Garbo, I would have talked about Garbo.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on December 13, 2012, 09:55:13 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:46:04 PM
Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.
To be fair, it seems like you are making it a big deal by insinuating that it is insensitive/making things worse/impolite not to ask someone up front what pronouns they want to be called by. If that's not what you meant, it's not how it came out.
If someone says they prefer to be addressed one way or another, I'll do my best to do that, but other than that, I have no interest in making a big deal of something that shouldn't be. It's just another way to divide people.
As for the woman/female thing...well I'm biologically female and I consider myself a woman, but I don't necessarily fit all the aspects of what a woman is "supposed" to be, which I assume is somewhere along the lines of - submissive, in the kitchen, pooping out babies? The women I know, have such varied tastes, styles, hobbies, interests, behaviors, that don't necessarily fit in one box or another, but I'm sure would still consider themselves women. Like Nigel said, the act of declaring oneself not a woman because they don't fit in certain lines, only seems to further reinforce the fact that there is a way that "Real Women" are supposed to act, rather than the fact that being a woman doesn't have a specific set of requirements.
Yes, all of this.
I don't believe in the binary, period. I don't believe that being XX/a vagina owner means I
HAVE to be a woman because, somehow, having one and not being a trans*man = woman. I am non-binary. I occasionally have brief boughts of dysmorphia, but I've mostly made my peace with the fact that I have boobs. When I feel like gal-ish again, I'd be really, really irritated if I got rid of them.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on December 13, 2012, 09:55:13 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:46:04 PM
Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.
To be fair, it seems like you are making it a big deal by insinuating that it is insensitive/making things worse/impolite not to ask someone up front what pronouns they want to be called by. If that's not what you meant, it's not how it came out.
If someone says they prefer to be addressed one way or another, I'll do my best to do that, but other than that, I have no interest in making a big deal of something that shouldn't be. It's just another way to divide people.
As for the woman/female thing...well I'm biologically female and I consider myself a woman, but I don't necessarily fit all the aspects of what a woman is "supposed" to be, which I assume is somewhere along the lines of - submissive, in the kitchen, pooping out babies? The women I know, have such varied tastes, styles, hobbies, interests, behaviors, that don't necessarily fit in one box or another, but I'm sure would still consider themselves women. Like Nigel said, the act of declaring oneself not a woman because they don't fit in certain lines, only seems to further reinforce the fact that there is a way that "Real Women" are supposed to act, rather than the fact that being a woman doesn't have a specific set of requirements.
I'm talking about my "they" preference, but point taken on the "ask" thing.
JFC. I'm not abandoning women because of oppressive gender roles. I get to deal with them
anyway. Not labeling myself as one doesn't mean I get to escape the boundaries our society has set for them (and "woman" means whatever the fuck a woman wants to mean; I'm just not one, okay?). It's that the word "woman" when applied to me is jarring. I don't think of myself as one, and never have. IMO, insisting that there is ONLY man and woman (because that's kind of what this conversation is implying; correct me if I'm wrong) is re-enforcing the binary. I don't fit. I don't think of myself as a woman. It's jarring. It's not a decision I made, it's just how it is.
I don't really understand why this is difficult. The gender binary is a construct of our modern society. Other cultures have more than two genders (shit, there's one somewhere with twenty six distinct genders!). Various pre-Western European cultures have had more than one gender.
Garbo, I want to clarify something: My perspectives and opinions exist completely independent of you and your existence. So, if I state an opinion that may pertain to you, that doesn't mean it was stated about you or for your benefit.
It just means that it happens to pertain to you. So, yes, if you feel that your opinion or behavior falls under the blanket of one of my statements, it does. That does not, by any means, mean that you were my inspiration. :lol:
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:49:53 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:46:04 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:16:13 PM
Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. :lol:
If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:42:29 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. :lol: The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.
Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.
I agree with you there. It's an interesting discussion, but it's counter-productive to get pissed off about it. ( I thought I was the only person who used 'het up', :D )
OK... show of hands... how many people are going to assume I'm implying them when I talk about the general environment where I live? :lol:
Maybe read what I said:
QuoteThey are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. :lol: The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.
I said, replying to Mangrove's comment about there not being many queers where he is, that queers are very common here, yet it's not an obstacle course because most people are really relaxed about it... with the exception of the rare person who, typically, seems mostly to be looking for trouble and having a hard time finding it.
If I was talking about Garbo, I would have talked about Garbo.
I assume nothing. I was enjoying the discussion. And thinking about tacos.
I am not a fan of the gender binary or of rigid gender roles.
However, I'm still not going to go around asking everyone "so what gender pronoun do you prefer?"
Because I think that's stupid, and I think it places unnecessary emphasis on categorizing people in a way that, bottom line, isn't all that important.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:49:53 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 09:46:04 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:16:13 PM
Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. :lol:
If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:42:29 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on December 13, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.
Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)
Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.
They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. :lol: The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.
Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.
I agree with you there. It's an interesting discussion, but it's counter-productive to get pissed off about it. ( I thought I was the only person who used 'het up', :D )
OK... show of hands... how many people are going to assume I'm implying them when I talk about the general environment where I live? :lol:
Maybe read what I said:
QuoteThey are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. :lol: The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.
I said, replying to Mangrove's comment about there not being many queers where he is, that queers are very common here, yet it's not an obstacle course because most people are really relaxed about it... with the exception of the rare person who, typically, seems mostly to be looking for trouble and having a hard time finding it.
If I was talking about Garbo, I would have talked about Garbo.
But I live in the PNW?
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 10:11:01 PM
I am not a fan of the gender binary or of rigid gender roles.
However, I'm still not going to go around asking everyone "so what gender pronoun do you prefer?"
Because I think that's stupid, and I think it places unnecessary emphasis on categorizing people in a way that, bottom line, isn't all that important.
AND THOSE ARE THE WORDS I WANTED TO USE TO EXPRESS MY FEELINGS ON THIS!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 10:08:36 PM
Garbo, I want to clarify something: My perspectives and opinions exist completely independent of you and your existence. So, if I state an opinion that may pertain to you, that doesn't mean it was stated about you or for your benefit.
It just means that it happens to pertain to you. So, yes, if you feel that your opinion or behavior falls under the blanket of one of my statements, it does. That does not, by any means, mean that you were my inspiration. :lol:
I didn't assume I was your inspiration. I assumed you were bringing it up because of what I said. And yes, I felt a little bit attacked and you did actually make a swipe at me indirectly earlier, so please forgive me for thinking you might be doing it more than once in this thread.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 10:11:01 PM
I am not a fan of the gender binary or of rigid gender roles.
However, I'm still not going to go around asking everyone "so what gender pronoun do you prefer?"
Because I think that's stupid, and I think it places unnecessary emphasis on categorizing people in a way that, bottom line, isn't all that important.
Fine. Don't. I tend to think gender is important, but what the fuck ever.
you never asked me what pronoun i would prefer....
:cry:
I missed this thread. I'm so glad it came back.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 10:14:04 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 10:08:36 PM
Garbo, I want to clarify something: My perspectives and opinions exist completely independent of you and your existence. So, if I state an opinion that may pertain to you, that doesn't mean it was stated about you or for your benefit.
It just means that it happens to pertain to you. So, yes, if you feel that your opinion or behavior falls under the blanket of one of my statements, it does. That does not, by any means, mean that you were my inspiration. :lol:
I didn't assume I was your inspiration. I assumed you were bringing it up because of what I said. And yes, I felt a little bit attacked and you did actually make a swipe at me indirectly earlier, so please forgive me for thinking you might be doing it more than once in this thread.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 10:11:01 PM
I am not a fan of the gender binary or of rigid gender roles.
However, I'm still not going to go around asking everyone "so what gender pronoun do you prefer?"
Because I think that's stupid, and I think it places unnecessary emphasis on categorizing people in a way that, bottom line, isn't all that important.
Fine. Don't. I tend to think gender is important, but what the fuck ever.
I didn't take an indirect swipe at you earlier... you asked if my statement meant you, and upon thinking about it I decided that yes, if you define yourself that way, it does indeed mean you. You, however, are not the reason (ie inspiration) for my statement or my post; I wasn't thinking of you when I posted it.
I don't think gender is completely unimportant, but it's also, to me, not the first thing I need to know when I meet someone. There are a lot of things that I think are more significant, especially when talking about someone I barely met. Personal things like gender, racial background, and who they fuck are not really any of my business.
Also, I feel like there is a lot of immaturity involved in wanting/assuming that other people spend that much time thinking about you.
Unless I have some sort of reason to believe otherwise, I start out thinking as someone of their biological gender. Statistically I am correct ~ 90% or more of the time. I have no intention of starting a conversation like this:
QuoteMe: Hi, I'm Roger.
Other person: Hi, I'm Fred.
Me: What pronoun do you use?
Nope. Not gonna do it. Because it's
silly.
On the other hand, a conversation could go like this:
QuoteMe: Hey, dude...
Fred: Um, I think of my self as female.
Me: Okay...Hey, lady...
Then everyone is happy. I'm not going to take the time to be nice and awkward with 90%+ of the people I meet, unless it's funny.
There's also a control issue here.
I don't give a shit what gender someone thinks of themselves as, unless it somehow becomes relevant.
But having to ask someone when I don't care puts THEIR Cause on me. If they want a different pronoun, they can tell me. That way, their Cause is on them. Not that I am against their Cause, but it isn't MY Cause, and I have enough Causes of my own. I am not required to adopt every Cause I run into as a personal crusade. I'll HELP if I agree with the Cause in question, but I am not going to throw on a sackcloth and start preaching the word.
Because, in this case (for example), gender identity doesn't matter to me. My daughter feels differently, but again, that's HER Cause, not mine.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 10:32:53 PM
Unless I have some sort of reason to believe otherwise, I start out thinking as someone of their biological gender. Statistically I am correct ~ 90% or more of the time. I have no intention of starting a conversation like this:
QuoteMe: Hi, I'm Roger.
Other person: Hi, I'm Fred.
Me: What pronoun do you use?
Nope. Not gonna do it. Because it's silly.
On the other hand, a conversation could go like this:
QuoteMe: Hey, dude...
Fred: Um, I think of my self as female.
Me: Okay...Hey, lady...
Then everyone is happy. I'm not going to take the time to be nice and awkward with 90%+ of the people I meet, unless it's funny.
That's pretty much how I roll. It works, and it's not weird or invasive.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2012, 10:38:17 PM
There's also a control issue here.
I don't give a shit what gender someone thinks of themselves as, unless it somehow becomes relevant.
But having to ask someone when I don't care puts THEIR Cause on me. If they want a different pronoun, they can tell me. That way, their Cause is on them. Not that I am against their Cause, but it isn't MY Cause, and I have enough Causes of my own. I am not required to adopt every Cause I run into as a personal crusade. I'll HELP if I agree with the Cause in question, but I am not going to throw on a sackcloth and start preaching the word.
Because, in this case (for example), gender identity doesn't matter to me. My daughter feels differently, but again, that's HER Cause, not mine.
YES, THANK YOU.
Someone's gender is not any of my business UNLESS for some reason, it is. And I don't CARE what gender someone is, I don't CARE if their gender is so so so important to them and their identity that they really really REALLY want me to be thinking about it. I have different things to worry about, things that I consider a lot more important than how some random stranger I just met gender-identifies.
A lot of things are really really REALLY important to me. They are, however, not some random stranger I just met's business and I'm not going to insist that they MUST THINK ABOUT THEM, A LOT, because they're so important to my
ME ME ME ME ME my self-identity.
Ah my head hurts. This would be easier to read with avatars.
Anyway id find it pretty jarring is someone asked me about my pronouns until i read this. If i get asked it hence forth i will confusedly look in my pants and then insist that they use the irish language pronouns for a male. Which also makes me hope this happens now.
That said i will refer to garbo plurally in the third person.
I gave up this shit when I ran across a support group for cis-male lesbians online.
I am in full agreement with TGRR here. If someone tells me they want to be referred to as something else, I change the way I talk about them, but I sure as fuck won't ask people about preferred pronouns. Ever.
Not to insult the whole idea of gender fluidity and all that sort of thing. Its just not something i would like to be asked. I dunno maybe i think things are getting overly complicated. I do like the idea of a gender neutral third and they works well. You and i/we dont have gender modifiers.
Yeah- im with you on that waffles.
Like im a dude who is primarily attracted to females. Bisexual works fine for me. I saw pixie using the terms heteroflexible and homoflexible which i dont even know what those mean. It made me laugh when i read it. It was in support of me so i was grateful for it but as far as i am concerned if you are sexually attracted to both males and females youre bi no further detail necessary.
I don't really have any hard and fast rules about it.
I generally work with the same system Roger describes as effective ~ 90% of the time, addressing people by what I interpret as their presented gender, unless I'm in a situation where that percentage is likely to drop (spaces where gender identity is important to many of those present).
I find the question awkward, even in some of these spaces, so I'll just avoid referring to gender at all and attempts to use names instead. There are some places, though, where it's totally cool to ask about pronouns as part of an introduction and if that's what people want in those places, it doesn't hurt me any to go along with it.
Some people are really serious about the importance of not making assumptions wrt each other's gender. I'm not invested enough in a contrary opinion to disagree with them.
ETA: The problem with an inconsistent approach to asking about pronouns is that if it's not something you ask everyone, you risk offending by asking. The rarity of the question makes asking a person-who-was-assigned-female-at-birth-but-who-unintentionally-could-be-perceived-as-presenting-as-male "what gender pronoun do you prefer" suggest more than you may like it to.
Would it not be easier in those situations just to refer to everyone as they then? Maybe its because i am cis-betesticled but i really dont think much about my gender identity unless im trying to figure out where the restroom is.
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 11:30:33 PM
Would it not be easier in those situations just to refer to everyone as they then? Maybe its because i am cis-betesticled but i really dont think much about my gender identity unless im trying to figure out where the restroom is.
Those situations are usually gatherings of people who have fairly strong feelings about gender assumptions being made and it doesn't do me any harm to be considerate of those feelings. My own gender-identity isn't of interest to me then, but if someone feels like I respect them more because I ask, I don't mind asking.
"They" is a word that can be used, yeah, and I'd probably use it (and mix it up with their name so as not to sound repetitious) if I hadn't asked.
Thanks, Twid. I appreciate it. :)
I don't assume people spend time thinking about me. I am pretty unremarkable. It did, however, come across as passive aggressive swipes. Which was apparently not your intent (I have a long history of dealing with people who are insanely passive aggressive, so I imagine that's part of why).
My gender is important to me. I care minimally about other people's gender because, well, it's their business and I don't care how they identify because that's THEIR identity.
I've reconsidered my opinion on asking up front, though. Not everybody wants other people to know or is ready to/interested in coming out. If they want me to know, they'll tell me.
"cis-male lesbians"? ...What? Are you sure that wasn't a troll? Because that would be an excellent troll.
I feel I should clarify that situations where I feel it would be appropriate to include questions about pronouns are remarkably rare.
Quote from: Pæs on December 13, 2012, 11:25:15 PM
ETA: The problem with an inconsistent approach to asking about pronouns is that if it's not something you ask everyone, you risk offending by asking. The rarity of the question makes asking a person-who-was-assigned-female-at-birth-but-who-unintentionally-could-be-perceived-as-presenting-as-male "what gender pronoun do you prefer" suggest more than you may like it to.
"I'm
Justin Bieber, asshole"
\
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Justin_Bieber.jpg)
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 11:42:20 PM
"cis-male lesbians"? ...What? Are you sure that wasn't a troll? Because that would be an excellent troll.
Too, numerous to be trolls, I think. I still hope I'm wrong about that though.
Bottom line for me, as always, is don't be an asshole.
Quote from: holis† on December 13, 2012, 11:54:43 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 11:42:20 PM
"cis-male lesbians"? ...What? Are you sure that wasn't a troll? Because that would be an excellent troll.
Too, numerous to be trolls, I think. I still hope I'm wrong about that though.
Bottom line for me, as always, is don't be an asshole.
The fuck.
Same rule for me, too. :D
Reminds me of that character on the l word who was a lesbian trapped in a mans body.
Which at the time i thought was just a joke maybe at los angeles' expense but apparently not.
...I don't like labeling people, because it's an act of power and that kind of power belongs to them, but I have trouble buying that. I feel like maybe they don't understand the terminology? IDK.
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 11:11:41 PM
heteroflexible and homoflexible which i dont even know what those mean.
That's another reason I tend to not get too involved with Causes. I already have too much technical jargon at work, I don't want to learn a whole new set of it.
Quote from: Cain on December 13, 2012, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Pæs on December 13, 2012, 11:25:15 PM
ETA: The problem with an inconsistent approach to asking about pronouns is that if it's not something you ask everyone, you risk offending by asking. The rarity of the question makes asking a person-who-was-assigned-female-at-birth-but-who-unintentionally-could-be-perceived-as-presenting-as-male "what gender pronoun do you prefer" suggest more than you may like it to.
"I'm Justin Bieber, asshole"
\
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Justin_Bieber.jpg)
Is there anything more ridiculous than Justin Beiber? I ask you.
Seriously. I like leaving my jargon at minor ninth chords mixolydian mode and what kind of number goes with this neoplasm.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 13, 2012, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 08:54:52 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: H0list on December 13, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 06:53:57 PM
So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.
I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?
Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.
There are ALL KINDS of things you could say to a person when you first meet them. That just seems unnecessary, invasive, and weird. Why not also ask them what race they are? Or maybe what their sexual preference is? Four little words. It's not so hard.
It's just weird and kind of creepy.
I swear to god if anyone ever asks me what pronoun I prefer I'm going to reply with "Why does it matter to you?"
This reminds me of a funny story.
Last time I hung out with a group of all lesbians and trans and whatever it was a party of sorts that I'd been tricked into. I hate parties. And surprises. So the hostess walks up, plays a five minute round of tonsil hockey with the friend I showed up with, also a lesbian, then turns to me and says HI!!! HoW ARE YOU!?!??! I HOPE YOU DON'T MIND, I'M JUST REALLY AFFECTIONATE!@! DO YOU PREFER MALE OR FEMALE PRONOUNS?
I told her it was dealer's choice. She immediately quit being loud and bubbly and glared at me. Then she said I had to choose. I told her I didn't, and shrugged. She asked me why. I told her I didn't care. It didn't matter to me.
The music died and pins were afraid to drop.
Then someone said they felt disrespected by my complete apathy to their ETERNAL STRUGGLE and the hostess asked me to leave. I saluted and walked out, slapping my friend on the back and whistling a merry tune as I went.
I wasn't deliberately being difficult. I just really don't give a fuck. And that's disrespectful.
Heh. Fanatics are funny.
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 09:00:07 PM
I'm just going to start referring to everyone as "it", and they can suck it up. :lulz:
Or "You People".
In addition, I shall now refer to myself and my fellow PDers as AJDSAJ.
"Asshats, Jackasses, Dumbshits, Spags, And Jizzmoppers.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 14, 2012, 01:30:46 AM
Is there anything more ridiculous than Justin Beiber? I ask you.
Only two things:
The blog "Lesbians who look like Justin Bieber" and people who submit photos to said blog.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 14, 2012, 01:30:46 AM
Quote from: Cain on December 13, 2012, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Pæs on December 13, 2012, 11:25:15 PM
ETA: The problem with an inconsistent approach to asking about pronouns is that if it's not something you ask everyone, you risk offending by asking. The rarity of the question makes asking a person-who-was-assigned-female-at-birth-but-who-unintentionally-could-be-perceived-as-presenting-as-male "what gender pronoun do you prefer" suggest more than you may like it to.
"I'm Justin Bieber, asshole"
\
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Justin_Bieber.jpg)
Is there anything more ridiculous than Justin Beiber? I ask you.
Yes.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/13/us/justin-bieber-murder-plot/index.html
:fnord:
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 11:06:22 PM
Not to insult the whole idea of gender fluidity and all that sort of thing. Its just not something i would like to be asked. I dunno maybe i think things are getting overly complicated. I do like the idea of a gender neutral third and they works well. You and i/we dont have gender modifiers.
I am OK with they, but I prefer it. The whole thing of not calling people "it" is relatively recent, it used to be quite common to refer to children beneath the age of gender differentiation as "it" and it wasn't considered offensive at all.
That's my preference; I wouldn't force it on anyone though. I'm fine with "she". It's accurate enough.
But if anyone ever asks me, I will tell them that my preferred pronoun is "it".
Quote from: hølist on December 14, 2012, 04:24:01 AM
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 11:06:22 PM
Not to insult the whole idea of gender fluidity and all that sort of thing. Its just not something i would like to be asked. I dunno maybe i think things are getting overly complicated. I do like the idea of a gender neutral third and they works well. You and i/we dont have gender modifiers.
I am OK with they, but I prefer it. The whole thing of not calling people "it" is relatively recent, it used to be quite common to refer to children beneath the age of gender differentiation as "it" and it wasn't considered offensive at all.
That's my preference; I wouldn't force it on anyone though. I'm fine with "she". It's accurate enough.
But if anyone ever asks me, I will tell them that my preferred pronoun is "it".
Reason #1742 why you cannot trust a Nigel. It is a robot.
You are Nigel, right?
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 13, 2012, 11:40:59 PM
Thanks, Twid. I appreciate it. :)
I don't assume people spend time thinking about me. I am pretty unremarkable. It did, however, come across as passive aggressive swipes. Which was apparently not your intent (I have a long history of dealing with people who are insanely passive aggressive, so I imagine that's part of why).
My gender is important to me. I care minimally about other people's gender because, well, it's their business and I don't care how they identify because that's THEIR identity.
I've reconsidered my opinion on asking up front, though. Not everybody wants other people to know or is ready to/interested in coming out. If they want me to know, they'll tell me.
Most people's personal stuff is important to them. And not to people they don't know, unless those people are nosy assholes like the Westboro fucks.
The reason other people's gender identity isn't significant for me is because it's none of my fucking business unless, for some reason, it IS my business. If I'm working with a trans kid, for example.
Quote from: Alty on December 14, 2012, 04:31:50 AM
Quote from: hølist on December 14, 2012, 04:24:01 AM
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 11:06:22 PM
Not to insult the whole idea of gender fluidity and all that sort of thing. Its just not something i would like to be asked. I dunno maybe i think things are getting overly complicated. I do like the idea of a gender neutral third and they works well. You and i/we dont have gender modifiers.
I am OK with they, but I prefer it. The whole thing of not calling people "it" is relatively recent, it used to be quite common to refer to children beneath the age of gender differentiation as "it" and it wasn't considered offensive at all.
That's my preference; I wouldn't force it on anyone though. I'm fine with "she". It's accurate enough.
But if anyone ever asks me, I will tell them that my preferred pronoun is "it".
Reason #1742 why you cannot trust a Nigel. It is a robot.
You are Nigel, right?
Who wants to know?
\
(http://images.wikia.com/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/5/51/Bender.jpg)
Quote from: hølist on December 14, 2012, 04:24:01 AM
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 11:06:22 PM
Not to insult the whole idea of gender fluidity and all that sort of thing. Its just not something i would like to be asked. I dunno maybe i think things are getting overly complicated. I do like the idea of a gender neutral third and they works well. You and i/we dont have gender modifiers.
I am OK with they, but I prefer it. The whole thing of not calling people "it" is relatively recent, it used to be quite common to refer to children beneath the age of gender differentiation as "it" and it wasn't considered offensive at all.
That's my preference; I wouldn't force it on anyone though. I'm fine with "she". It's accurate enough.
But if anyone ever asks me, I will tell them that my preferred pronoun is "it".
I used to refer to my youngest sibling as it for a brief time.
Mom got annoyed with that because it was my sister.
Well.
It's a girl.
It's a baby. As long as it's "the baby" it's an it. It's Twidsister, sure but it's an it in all other circumstances. Until it develops a tangible personality, regardless of how immature, I recognize
it as a lovable it. Put all the pink clothes you want on it.
It grew up to be a very intelligent, presumably hetero-cis (I also hate the qualifier cis, but begrudgingly acknowledge its occasional necessity in such conversations) female who also hates hearing the word fag. But, even then, I don't know where she falls in the alphabet soup (and that's what I'm calling humanity minus douches from now on- heterosexists are SHHH) and frankly, I don't care. She's my sister until she tells me she's my brother, or my itter or other or whateverer sort of thing they come up with next. Also
she accepts me as her brother and favorite sibling, confides in me, even though there's a chunk of me she knows nothing about.
Also, I introduced her observant Catholic self with some interesting slurs. She got a kick out of Popery, I must say.
Actually, that's an interesting tangent.
If we're going to be adding new pronouns, how does that affect the terminology of sibling or parent-child relationships?
Note, I'm probably going to get stodgy at this point but if my child/sibling wants me to call them something, I'd like to be familiar with the word already.
Quote from: ho|ist on December 14, 2012, 05:02:12 AM
Actually, that's an interesting tangent.
If we're going to be adding new pronouns, how does that affect the terminology of sibling or parent-child relationships?
Note, I'm probably going to get stodgy at this point but if my child/sibling wants me to call them something, I'd like to be familiar with the word already.
I'm getting pretty acclimated to simply referring to them as "sibs", but that's because of my work.
I refer to my children as "offspring" or "babe" or "chicken-potatoes", or by their many and varied names. Of course, I do actually call them "Eldest Female Offspring", "The Boy One", and "Little Orange", and I suppose they might object to that. EFO could potentially object to being called "Hey Girliehead Face Pants" but it doesn't.
Quote from: hølist on December 14, 2012, 05:15:34 AM
Quote from: ho|ist on December 14, 2012, 05:02:12 AM
Actually, that's an interesting tangent.
If we're going to be adding new pronouns, how does that affect the terminology of sibling or parent-child relationships?
Note, I'm probably going to get stodgy at this point but if my child/sibling wants me to call them something, I'd like to be familiar with the word already.
I'm getting pretty acclimated to simply referring to them as "sibs", but that's because of my work.
I refer to my children as "offspring" or "babe" or "chicken-potatoes", or by their many and varied names. Of course, I do actually call them "Eldest Female Offspring", "The Boy One", and "Little Orange", and I suppose they might object to that. EFO could potentially object to being called "Hey Girliehead Face Pants" but it doesn't.
If and when I have kids, I'm just as happy to refer to them as the gender that the OBGYN told me about, until they tell me otherwise. Then they can get all awkward for the coming out as what ever they are for several years, finally come out, and I can be like, "whatever man. I can tell you all about me if you like, but you probably don't want to hear it. Gotta come from somewhere though, right? :wink wink nudge nudge:"
Oh, and since we're on it, I suppose it's time I told you about the birds and the birds and the bees and the bees. In graphic detail. Hahah.
I approve of this course of action. :lol:
Gotta keep the little shits on their toes. I achieve this by making them uncomfortable wherever possible.
Quote from: hølist on December 14, 2012, 05:29:19 AM
I approve of this course of action. :lol:
Gotta keep the little shits on their toes. I achieve this by making them uncomfortable wherever possible.
I think I'm going to take a few pages out of the TGRR book of parenting.
Yeah, yeah, that's all well and good, but...
..while I'm at it, let me tell you about your old cis-man and the shenanigans he used to and still get up to and your ma begrudgingly put(s) up with. Also, here's a Pope Card and some plastic eggs and some oranges. Oh, hey, you're doing that, can I join in? I won't tell mom, I swear. Here's $500 (inflation). Have a good time with your genderfriend.
It should be noted also, that I am less traditional than Villager. We've already had the conversation about last names, and I figured that if they are male, they bear my last name, if they are female, they bear hers. We came to the compromise that if they are female, they are Twiddleton-Villager and if male, Villager-Twiddleton, not including first and middle names. I think.
We did agree that our first daughter would be named after my paternal grandmother.
I also have already expressed my disinclination to her taking my name. Unless she wants to shun her birth family.
Quote from: hølist on December 14, 2012, 05:15:34 AM
Quote from: ho|ist on December 14, 2012, 05:02:12 AM
Actually, that's an interesting tangent.
If we're going to be adding new pronouns, how does that affect the terminology of sibling or parent-child relationships?
Note, I'm probably going to get stodgy at this point but if my child/sibling wants me to call them something, I'd like to be familiar with the word already.
I'm getting pretty acclimated to simply referring to them as "sibs", but that's because of my work.
I refer to my children as "offspring" or "babe" or "chicken-potatoes", or by their many and varied names. Of course, I do actually call them "Eldest Female Offspring", "The Boy One", and "Little Orange", and I suppose they might object to that. EFO could potentially object to being called "Hey Girliehead Face Pants" but it doesn't.
As far as siblings go, I only have cisters, no brothers or others. I am the only son of an only son. And Midsister has already provided surname continuity through my nephew.
Uncle Twiddleton,
Surname weight off shoulders. Have yet to meet him. :argh!:<----at Midsister
It is somewhat useful in terms of raising children, to separate the whole egoistic naming-it-after-me thing and give them all the same last name, simply because THEY will be siblings longer than YOU will be alive. Hopefully at least 30 years longer.
Quote from: hølist on December 14, 2012, 05:50:28 AM
It is somewhat useful in terms of raising children, to separate the whole egoistic naming-it-after-me thing and give them all the same last name, simply because THEY will be siblings longer than YOU will be alive. Hopefully at least 30 years longer.
I think that's why we came to the horty-torty hyphenated compromise. That was her concern too. At least if the surnames are variations of each other, the sibling relationship is still obvious to outsiders.
Funny enough, it was genealogical research that formed my opinions on this. I am Irish, and very so. My ancestry is overwhelmingly so, being a son of an immigrant and a mostly Irish-American. And last names, which are patrilinear tend to shape things, no matter how tenuous or thinned. My matrilinear name, as far back as I can trace it, is Scottish. Reversed, my last name would at least be Gillis, who was my.... :cracks open Bible: thrice-great grandmother, an immigrant to Canada born in Scotland in 1838. Why is that any less valid? It's my mitochondrial lineage.
In other words, providing that Villager and I have children, I would hope that all of her direct female descendants retain her name, and all of my male descendants retain mine. Dual-linear.
Quote from: ho|ist on December 14, 2012, 06:05:56 AM
In other words, providing that Villager and I have children, I would hope that all of her direct female descendants retain her name, and all of my male descendants retain mine. Dual-linear.
If the world doesn't end abruptly next Friday then I predict that your distant descendants will really hate you.
MMIX
40 yrs of amateur genealogy
Quote from: hølist on December 13, 2012, 07:47:06 PM
I checked in at my schools to see what the clubs are called; PCC has a Queer Alliance, and PSU has the Queer Resource Center and Q Club.
I think that it's probably pretty safe/inoffensive to simply use "Queer" or "Non-traditional" to refer to whatever falls outside of the dominant social norm.
I've met folks that find "Queer" upsetting because of being bullied by it as kids, me and my firends tend to use QUILTBAG I'm not sure that the U stands for.
Quote from: ho|ist on December 13, 2012, 11:11:41 PM
Yeah- im with you on that waffles.
Like im a dude who is primarily attracted to females. Bisexual works fine for me. I saw pixie using the terms heteroflexible and homoflexible which i dont even know what those mean. It made me laugh when i read it. It was in support of me so i was grateful for it but as far as i am concerned if you are sexually attracted to both males and females youre bi no further detail necessary.
I use heteroflexible as i mostly like dudes, but am open to relationships/sex with women. also it makes people laugh, and is kind of specific as to where I am on the sexuality spectrum. it's specifying where I am on the whole "how bi am I?" Homoflexible is the other end of the spectrum. If i'd had more ladysexytiems I'd probably use bi.
I like the hetero/homoflexible terms.
it also stops elitist QUILTBAG folks getting pissy with you for identifying as bi. Which has happened to me... (they are otherwise a nice person, so meh, who cares)
no gay/queer person (or straight person, even,) I've met seems to be bothered by the term.
There are other people who don't like the sociopolitical context of "queer".
Quote from: ho|ist on December 14, 2012, 05:02:12 AM
Actually, that's an interesting tangent.
If we're going to be adding new pronouns, how does that affect the terminology of sibling or parent-child relationships?
Note, I'm probably going to get stodgy at this point but if my child/sibling wants me to call them something, I'd like to be familiar with the word already.
Siblings?
Quote from: Pixie on December 14, 2012, 04:27:04 PM
it also stops elitist QUILTBAG folks getting pissy with you for identifying as bi. Which has happened to me... (they are otherwise a nice person, so meh, who cares)
no gay/queer person (or straight person, even,) I've met seems to be bothered by the term.
Yeah. I've had many a condescending lesbian tell me that being bi means I'm confused or afraid of commitment or whatever other bullshit they can think of. I just nod and smile and walk away. Or tell them I'm not confused; I'm greedy, I want it all, baby.
do they come across in the same way that douche-nozzle guys come across to gay women implying that they just haven't had the right magic penis to show them the error of their ways?
[i'm glad to know that the spelling corrector will show me the proper way to spell douchenozzle]
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on December 14, 2012, 07:53:13 PM
do they come across in the same way that douche-nozzle guys come across to gay women implying that they just haven't had the right magic penis to show them the error of their ways?
[i'm glad to know that the spelling corrector will show me the proper way to spell douchenozzle]
Only with more hair-flipping and lipstick colored sneers.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 14, 2012, 07:42:34 PM
Quote from: Pixie on December 14, 2012, 04:27:04 PM
it also stops elitist QUILTBAG folks getting pissy with you for identifying as bi. Which has happened to me... (they are otherwise a nice person, so meh, who cares)
no gay/queer person (or straight person, even,) I've met seems to be bothered by the term.
Yeah. I've had many a condescending lesbian tell me that being bi means I'm confused or afraid of commitment or whatever other bullshit they can think of. I just nod and smile and walk away. Or tell them I'm not confused; I'm greedy, I want it all, baby.
Adding to this, my pansexuality is not only me being greedy and confused and afraid of commitment (and going to cheat on Pæs), but it's also me being an attention-seeker by using stupid fancy words.
Basically, elitist assholes in the QUILTBAGPIPE community manage to be both hilarious and somehow more upsetting than people who are flat-out heterosexist.
Quote from: Signora Paesior on December 14, 2012, 08:17:33 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 14, 2012, 07:42:34 PM
Quote from: Pixie on December 14, 2012, 04:27:04 PM
it also stops elitist QUILTBAG folks getting pissy with you for identifying as bi. Which has happened to me... (they are otherwise a nice person, so meh, who cares)
no gay/queer person (or straight person, even,) I've met seems to be bothered by the term.
Yeah. I've had many a condescending lesbian tell me that being bi means I'm confused or afraid of commitment or whatever other bullshit they can think of. I just nod and smile and walk away. Or tell them I'm not confused; I'm greedy, I want it all, baby.
Adding to this, my pansexuality is not only me being greedy and confused and afraid of commitment (and going to cheat on Pæs), but it's also me being an attention-seeker by using stupid fancy words.
Basically, elitist assholes in the QUILTBAGPIPE community manage to be both hilarious and somehow more upsetting than people who are flat-out heterosexist.
One really effective way I've found to deal with this is to tell people that who, what, or how I fuck is none of their business.
Of course, I've also been known to play it a little close to the chest. When I got pregnant the first time, my co-workers were curious about how. They apparently had spent the entire year and a half we worked together assuming that my spouse, Chris, was a woman. :lol:
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on December 14, 2012, 07:53:13 PM
do they come across in the same way that douche-nozzle guys come across to gay women implying that they just haven't had the right magic penis to show them the error of their ways?
[i'm glad to know that the spelling corrector will show me the proper way to spell douchenozzle]
Mmm, less "let me be that magic penis". More anger.
Quote from: hølist on December 14, 2012, 11:15:59 PM
Quote from: Signora Paesior on December 14, 2012, 08:17:33 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 14, 2012, 07:42:34 PM
Quote from: Pixie on December 14, 2012, 04:27:04 PM
it also stops elitist QUILTBAG folks getting pissy with you for identifying as bi. Which has happened to me... (they are otherwise a nice person, so meh, who cares)
no gay/queer person (or straight person, even,) I've met seems to be bothered by the term.
Yeah. I've had many a condescending lesbian tell me that being bi means I'm confused or afraid of commitment or whatever other bullshit they can think of. I just nod and smile and walk away. Or tell them I'm not confused; I'm greedy, I want it all, baby.
Adding to this, my pansexuality is not only me being greedy and confused and afraid of commitment (and going to cheat on Pæs), but it's also me being an attention-seeker by using stupid fancy words.
Basically, elitist assholes in the QUILTBAGPIPE community manage to be both hilarious and somehow more upsetting than people who are flat-out heterosexist.
One really effective way I've found to deal with this is to tell people that who, what, or how I fuck is none of their business.
Of course, I've also been known to play it a little close to the chest. When I got pregnant the first time, my co-workers were curious about how. They apparently had spent the entire year and a half we worked together assuming that my spouse, Chris, was a woman. :lol:
LOL! I'd have brought in a turkey baster and introduced it as the father.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 15, 2012, 05:49:37 AM
Quote from: hølist on December 14, 2012, 11:15:59 PM
Quote from: Signora Paesior on December 14, 2012, 08:17:33 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 14, 2012, 07:42:34 PM
Quote from: Pixie on December 14, 2012, 04:27:04 PM
it also stops elitist QUILTBAG folks getting pissy with you for identifying as bi. Which has happened to me... (they are otherwise a nice person, so meh, who cares)
no gay/queer person (or straight person, even,) I've met seems to be bothered by the term.
Yeah. I've had many a condescending lesbian tell me that being bi means I'm confused or afraid of commitment or whatever other bullshit they can think of. I just nod and smile and walk away. Or tell them I'm not confused; I'm greedy, I want it all, baby.
Adding to this, my pansexuality is not only me being greedy and confused and afraid of commitment (and going to cheat on Pæs), but it's also me being an attention-seeker by using stupid fancy words.
Basically, elitist assholes in the QUILTBAGPIPE community manage to be both hilarious and somehow more upsetting than people who are flat-out heterosexist.
One really effective way I've found to deal with this is to tell people that who, what, or how I fuck is none of their business.
Of course, I've also been known to play it a little close to the chest. When I got pregnant the first time, my co-workers were curious about how. They apparently had spent the entire year and a half we worked together assuming that my spouse, Chris, was a woman. :lol:
LOL! I'd have brought in a turkey baster and introduced it as the father.
Extra points if a father does this.
I'll stick to Non-Hetro Ally
Quote from: Pippa Twiddleton on December 14, 2012, 05:40:59 AM
Quote from: hølist on December 14, 2012, 05:29:19 AM
I approve of this course of action. :lol:
Gotta keep the little shits on their toes. I achieve this by making them uncomfortable wherever possible.
I think I'm going to take a few pages out of the TGRR book of parenting.
Yeah, yeah, that's all well and good, but...
..while I'm at it, let me tell you about your old cis-man and the shenanigans he used to and still get up to and your ma begrudgingly put(s) up with. Also, here's a Pope Card and some plastic eggs and some oranges. Oh, hey, you're doing that, can I join in? I won't tell mom, I swear. Here's $500 (inflation). Have a good time with your genderfriend.
It should be noted also, that I am less traditional than Villager. We've already had the conversation about last names, and I figured that if they are male, they bear my last name, if they are female, they bear hers. We came to the compromise that if they are female, they are Twiddleton-Villager and if male, Villager-Twiddleton, not including first and middle names. I think.
We did agree that our first daughter would be named after my paternal grandmother.
No, Twid. Don't turn your children into more of those godawful
white people with hyphenated last names.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 16, 2013, 06:38:16 PM
Quote from: Pippa Twiddleton on December 14, 2012, 05:40:59 AM
Quote from: hølist on December 14, 2012, 05:29:19 AM
I approve of this course of action. :lol:
Gotta keep the little shits on their toes. I achieve this by making them uncomfortable wherever possible.
I think I'm going to take a few pages out of the TGRR book of parenting.
Yeah, yeah, that's all well and good, but...
..while I'm at it, let me tell you about your old cis-man and the shenanigans he used to and still get up to and your ma begrudgingly put(s) up with. Also, here's a Pope Card and some plastic eggs and some oranges. Oh, hey, you're doing that, can I join in? I won't tell mom, I swear. Here's $500 (inflation). Have a good time with your genderfriend.
It should be noted also, that I am less traditional than Villager. We've already had the conversation about last names, and I figured that if they are male, they bear my last name, if they are female, they bear hers. We came to the compromise that if they are female, they are Twiddleton-Villager and if male, Villager-Twiddleton, not including first and middle names. I think.
We did agree that our first daughter would be named after my paternal grandmother.
No, Twid. Don't turn your children into more of those godawful white people with hyphenated last names.
The Good Reverend Roger-Howl?
...he said, as he sipped his fair-trade coffee and stuck his kindle fire into his man purse messenger bag on his way out the door to go shop for a new fedora.
Hey wait, I --
Oh, goddamn it. Pegged it in one.
LM-NO
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 17, 2013, 01:08:35 PM
Hey wait, I --
Oh, goddamn it. Pegged it in one.
LM-NO
Well played, sir. :lulz:
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 17, 2013, 09:09:37 AM
...he said, as he sipped his fair-trade coffee and stuck his kindle fire into his man purse messenger bag on his way out the door to go shop for a new fedora.
THEY GOT MY LATTE WRONG! THIS IS WHOLE MILK! ARE THEY TRYING TO KILL ME?
:lulz:
Ok, fair enough.