Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[BadBeast]

The relationship America has with it's 'African Americans' is also very different to the British, with it's Blacks. (West Indian) In 30 years, we've gone from open and unashamed Racism, to more or less wholly accepting of West Indian culture. In the mid 50's, the first Jamaican immigrants had a pretty tough time of things, and their children also bore the full on brunt of ugly Nationalist racism. But by the third generation they'd began to fight back, winning Legal rights with the anti-discrimination act.

But the most fascinating cultural phenomena, for me, is to take a look at the history of the British Skinhead movement. In the 60's, the first Skinheads were anything but racist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcEhAIx1OB4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqEJK0ZspkQ&feature=related

Some of the earliest British Skins were actually black. The whole Skinhead movement rose up from the Jamaican Ska and Rocksteady scene, with black kids, and white kids just getting together for parties, and dancing all night to Jamaican Dancehall music. But by the late 70's & early 80's, the whole scene was politically subverted by right wing neo-nazi groups like the National Front, via the Football Terraces.

Nowadays, people find it hard to believe that Skinheads were ever anything but racist Nazi sympathisers, especially when you see in what form the Skinhead phenomena exported itself as to mainland Europe and America, but it's true. It was originally a black thing, and at it's grass roots level, originated with the working class Jamaican Rude boys.     

[Scribbly]

The relationship America has with it's 'African Americans' is also very different to the British, with it's Blacks. (West Indian) In 30 years, we've gone from open and unashamed Racism, to more or less wholly accepting of West Indian culture. In the mid 50's, the first Jamaican immigrants had a pretty tough time of things, and their children also bore the full on brunt of ugly Nationalist racism. But by the third generation they'd began to fight back, winning Legal rights with the anti-discrimination act.

But the most fascinating cultural phenomena, for me, is to take a look at the history of the British Skinhead movement. In the 60's, the first Skinheads were anything but racist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcEhAIx1OB4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqEJK0ZspkQ&feature=related

Some of the earliest British Skins were actually black. The whole Skinhead movement rose up from the Jamaican Ska and Rocksteady scene, with black kids, and white kids just getting together for parties, and dancing all night to Jamaican Dancehall music. But by the late 70's & early 80's, the whole scene was politically subverted by right wing neo-nazi groups like the National Front, via the Football Terraces.

Nowadays, people find it hard to believe that Skinheads were ever anything but racist Nazi sympathisers, especially when you see in what form the Skinhead phenomena exported itself as to mainland Europe and America, but it's true. It was originally a black thing, and at it's grass roots level, originated with the working class Jamaican Rude boys.   

... dude seriously?

We don't accept West Indian culture at all that I can see. Racism is still endemic in British society, and is becoming more accepted in mainstream society from where I'm standing. Just look at the Dianne Abbot stupidity, the treatment of all non-white youths by the police, or the rising popularity of the EDL. Daily Mail circulation is still huge, people still conflate 'asylum seeker' 'immigrant' and 'refugee' and consider them all benefit cheats. Class mobility is calcifying with a disproportionate amount of ethnic minorities in the bottom of society.

How much programming do you see on the BBC focused around West Indian culture? Or any culture that isn't mainstream British for that matter? We have some edge radio stations and that's about it. They are consistently portrayed as 'the other', under-represented in the majority of broadcasting and over-represented as the criminals or miscreants when they are portrayed at all.

Britain has a lot of points of distinction with the US, and our relationship with our ethnic minorities is different. Largely because we don't have such a burden of 'white guilt' as seems to be the cultural norm in the US. Up until a few years ago most people were ignorant of the slave trade and the role we played in it - hell, a lot of people still are, but we've at least started talking about it. We've in no way accepted other cultures, though. Mostly we segregate them off and demand that they keep it out of our faces, acknowledging it only when it is time to pass judgement on them for their backwards ways.

[Cain]

I'm more inclined to agree with DS, for the country as a whole.

However, I will say that Badbeast is from near the part of Dorset I lived in for several years, and if he is basing his experiences on the Dorset/Avon and Somerset/Wiltshire area, he's probably more right.  Bristol definitely embraces its West Indian heritage quite strong nowadays, and even in tiny little Midsomer Murder-esque villages up and down the coast, you'll normally have at least a couple of Indian, Chinese black families there, who are normally quite well integrated.  The BNP do badly down here, as do similar groups, and racially motivated violence is quite low.

I suspect this is due to the relatively low numbers of ethnic minorities in the South West, as much as anything.  People don't see race as a problem as much around there, because most people are white.  It's very hard for the fear mongers of MUSLIM-BLACK APOCALYPSE to gain currency in a town where the only Muslim owns the kebab shop and drinks more beer and watches more porn than you do.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Culture has a whole different relevancy, but people very often conflate culture and race... such as my ex who used to tell me that I am "culturally white".

I'm starting to wonder if "culturism" isn't hot shiny new thing in racism.  There's a professor at my old college who teaches history through the lens of culture.  As in, "Muslim culture has never produced anything of scientific value, because their religion forbids them from studying the natural laws of the universe.  All the great inventions came from the free West, because they valued a spirit of inquiry."  He even has a book where he meticulously explains how the "more democratic/free" (i.e., Western) society always wins wars.  Except when they don't, which is because they weren't being faithful to their core values of Westerness.

It lets you make statements like "Of course black people are our intellectual and spiritual peers - race is entirely superficial.  The reason they're doing so poorly is because their inferior culture - the black community is doing poorly academically and professionally because they don't have the WASP's intellectual curiosity or work ethic" and be not racist, because you're completely okay with black people who "escape" their culture and act like civilized human beings white people.

It has the added benefit that you can call anyone who disagrees with you a relativist, who as we all know lack morals.

There is definitely something to that idea.  In fact, I believe the value of this as a long-term strategy was discussed by several Novelle Droit groups in Europe in the 1970s and 80s, who wanted to deploy Gramscian theories of hegemony and cultural domination against leftists who used it to make racism a terrible social faux pas.

In my long time spent arguing with Neo-Nazi twits, I say this deployed often.  Most were actually sincere in using it, but since you could draw out ideas (like "Muslims don't do science" and "are crazy religions zealots who don't believe in the secular state") and then draw parallels to distinctly Western groups, it could be quite fun, as was pointing out that Al-Qaeda is essentially a variant of Leninism, and indeed Islamism as a political movement was drawn from Western, counter-enlightenment philosophies.

I mean, has anyone told the Nazis, the Soviet Union (Lysenkoism lol) or indeed the US Congress that they are meant to respect science?

The idea of culture used in such a way is meant to privilege certain specific narratives concerning Western society, almost all of which are a) flattering to Westerners and b) can be used as a stick to beat other cultures with, no matter how inaccurately.  It's advocates might as well say Western Culture (whatever that is) is Doubleplus Good and all other societies (who are of course also monolithic) are guilty of thinkcrime.

Agreed. Race and culture are very different and have been very different throughout history. It wasn't that long ago that culturally different societies of the same race enslaved each other in ways almost indistinguishable from the Western enslavement of Africans.

The more I thought about this, I realized that I needed to amend the earlier comment I made about my observations here in Turkey. I think that the prejudice I've seen is probably far more a cultural prejudice than a racial one. For example, there is prejudice against 'Kurds' but this only seems to apply to the Kurds from the southeast. Kurds that are a couple generations integrated into the west don't elicit the same kind of response (as in no response). It seems to me that the heavy accent, the less metropolitan perspective and the much more conservative interpretation of Islam tend to be the factors that most of this prejudice keys off of. The same could be said of the 'gypsies' since most of the ones I've met are pretty much physically indistinguishable from the other Turks. Their clothing, lifestyle, accent and culture seem, again, to be the key factors. Perhaps this is because racially, these groups have been integrated for centuries, while culturally the groups have always been unique. This seems especially true post-Ottoman as the western half of the country became more culturally Europe and the west (esp the Southwest) retained their existing culture.

The US has lots of cultural prejudice and racial prejudice across many different races and cultures. In some cases it seems that the prejudices don't go hand in hand at all. Some people aren't prejudice against 'black people', but appear obviously prejudiced against 'black culture'. Other people seem prejudiced against any culture not their own while accepting any genetic variation within their specific culture. In other cases, people seem open to other cultures but hold obvious prejudice against specific races and their culture.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

True. I guess thats part of my discomfort describing myself as white. I might have more in common with a hypothetical black bostonian with an irish immigrant parent than my midwestern friends. But that goes back to a previous post. I think of phil lynnott as an irishman rather than a black dude with a white mother. Its a separate topic than race but still ties in to a degree.

Obviously you think of him as both an Irishman and a black dude with a white mother, or you couldn't have chosen him as an example.

And I am going to challenge you on all of your justifications on being uncomfortable describing yourself as "white", because so far they're all variations on "I don't see race".

I do see race. If I look at someone, skin color is one of the most obvious things about them. I guess my point is that since someone's skin color doesn't really tell me anything about them that it is largely useless information, whereas where they grew up or where their parents are from gives me a better idea of what has shaped them. Obviously I'm a white guy, but that's such a broad label that it's meaningless. It's not just discomfort at thinking of myself as white, I don't look at myself in the mirror and go, I'm a white guy. The thought just doesn't even occur to me.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I don't analyze stuff that much.  If I'm trying to point out a guy in a crowd, and he's Black or Chinese or whatever, I'm going to include that in my description, because it helps me communicate.

After all, it isn't a sin or a crime¹ to be Black or Chinese or whatever.  It is what it is.





¹  This is not accurate in Los Angeles.

[BadBeast]

The relationship America has with it's 'African Americans' is also very different to the British, with it's Blacks. (West Indian) In 30 years, we've gone from open and unashamed Racism, to more or less wholly accepting of West Indian culture. In the mid 50's, the first Jamaican immigrants had a pretty tough time of things, and their children also bore the full on brunt of ugly Nationalist racism. But by the third generation they'd began to fight back, winning Legal rights with the anti-discrimination act.

But the most fascinating cultural phenomena, for me, is to take a look at the history of the British Skinhead movement. In the 60's, the first Skinheads were anything but racist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcEhAIx1OB4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqEJK0ZspkQ&feature=related

Some of the earliest British Skins were actually black. The whole Skinhead movement rose up from the Jamaican Ska and Rocksteady scene, with black kids, and white kids just getting together for parties, and dancing all night to Jamaican Dancehall music. But by the late 70's & early 80's, the whole scene was politically subverted by right wing neo-nazi groups like the National Front, via the Football Terraces.

Nowadays, people find it hard to believe that Skinheads were ever anything but racist Nazi sympathisers, especially when you see in what form the Skinhead phenomena exported itself as to mainland Europe and America, but it's true. It was originally a black thing, and at it's grass roots level, originated with the working class Jamaican Rude boys.   

... dude seriously?

We don't accept West Indian culture at all that I can see. Racism is still endemic in British society, and is becoming more accepted in mainstream society from where I'm standing. Just look at the Dianne Abbot stupidity, the treatment of all non-white youths by the police, or the rising popularity of the EDL. Daily Mail circulation is still huge, people still conflate 'asylum seeker' 'immigrant' and 'refugee' and consider them all benefit cheats. Class mobility is calcifying with a disproportionate amount of ethnic minorities in the bottom of society.

How much programming do you see on the BBC focused around West Indian culture? Or any culture that isn't mainstream British for that matter? We have some edge radio stations and that's about it. They are consistently portrayed as 'the other', under-represented in the majority of broadcasting and over-represented as the criminals or miscreants when they are portrayed at all.

Britain has a lot of points of distinction with the US, and our relationship with our ethnic minorities is different. Largely because we don't have such a burden of 'white guilt' as seems to be the cultural norm in the US. Up until a few years ago most people were ignorant of the slave trade and the role we played in it - hell, a lot of people still are, but we've at least started talking about it. We've in no way accepted other cultures, though. Mostly we segregate them off and demand that they keep it out of our faces, acknowledging it only when it is time to pass judgement on them for their backwards ways.

When I was growing up in Wiltshire, at my School, Teachers would (not all of them, and not regularly, but often enough) refer to the maybe a dozen black kids at my School as Nig-nogs, or Gollywogs, in class, and in front of everyone, and not think they were doing anything wrong.
On a School trip to London, to see Macbeth by the RSC,  a few of us ducked out of going to the Theatre, (two black lads amongst us)  preferring to have a bit of a gander around the Record shops instead. When it was time to get back for the Coach home, one of them asked a Patrolling Policeman which way was the quickest way to walk back to the Theatre. The Policeman's response? "Fuck off you black bastard". This was to a polite 12 year old kid, in his school uniform. Kind of soured the whole trip for those of us present.

There were people regularly hanging around outside the School gates, handing out recruitment flyers and pamphlets for the National Front, and if you think the EDL are a bit right of centre, you obviously never ran into these bastards. Think a 20 year old Nick Griffin, in boots and braces, with Nazi armbands and badges, in gangs of half a dozen. Outside SCHOOLS recruiting 11 to 16 year old KIDS!
Grown men, who would spit on black mothers taking their children to school, while handing out their filth to kids. 
When I was a bit older, I had a Ghanan friend, who had been adopted by a rich white couple. Nice people, well brought up lad, very well off. His dad had an old MGA Roadster, beautifully restored, that he let my friend drive at the weekends. One night, we were driving back from Bath, when the Police pulled him over. they went over the car, (which was obviously uptogether) and his documents with a fine toothed comb, sneering and derisively rude with every gesture and question. Totally ignoring me, the passenger. When I asked why he'd been pulled over, one of them said "Because it's not right to see a nice British car like this being driven around by a fucking coon". That's the kind of day to day racism I experienced when I was young, just by dint of having black friends.
OK, things are still racist here, especially against Asians, but it's nothing like as up front and in your face as it was back then, believe me.

These days, the Police are uniformly unpleasant to everyone, whites included. That Diane Abbot thing the other day, was nothing more than a low level political jibe, under the radar, save that the press blew it up out of all proportion. And The Daily Mail vastly exaggerate people's attitude towards race, for their own agenda. On the street, between normal people, interacting on a day to day basis, there seems to be far less overt racism than there was back then. And normal people are much more likely to speak up in it's face when it does show itself.

People are much more race/racism aware these days, and whatever private opinions the racists might hold today, they're much more circumspect about what they say, and how they treat people in public. And as far as I can see, that's a vast improvement on how things were in the early 80's.

[kingyak]

True. I guess thats part of my discomfort describing myself as white. I might have more in common with a hypothetical black bostonian with an irish immigrant parent than my midwestern friends. But that goes back to a previous post. I think of phil lynnott as an irishman rather than a black dude with a white mother. Its a separate topic than race but still ties in to a degree.

Obviously you think of him as both an Irishman and a black dude with a white mother, or you couldn't have chosen him as an example.

And I am going to challenge you on all of your justifications on being uncomfortable describing yourself as "white", because so far they're all variations on "I don't see race".

I do see race. If I look at someone, skin color is one of the most obvious things about them. I guess my point is that since someone's skin color doesn't really tell me anything about them that it is largely useless information, whereas where they grew up or where their parents are from gives me a better idea of what has shaped them. Obviously I'm a white guy, but that's such a broad label that it's meaningless. It's not just discomfort at thinking of myself as white, I don't look at myself in the mirror and go, I'm a white guy. The thought just doesn't even occur to me.

I agree with the "skin color doesn't really tell me anything about them," but unless a person's origin is obvious (they've got an accent or dress in "ethnic" clothing) or they're self-consciously conspicuous about it (they can't go five minutes without reminding you that they're Irish right down to their shamrock tattoo), you don't typically find out a person's origin/ancestry until you've already filed them into some other compartment ("sports nut" or "anime nerd" or "Dave").

As for reactions to people I encounter randomly on the street, skin color is a factor in how I react to them (because I'm an American and therefore at least a little racist by default), but the way they dress, walk, and talk is going to be just as important. A white guy with a shaved head and lots of ink carrying a gun is going to worry more a lot more than a black guy in business casual packing heat.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

True. I guess thats part of my discomfort describing myself as white. I might have more in common with a hypothetical black bostonian with an irish immigrant parent than my midwestern friends. But that goes back to a previous post. I think of phil lynnott as an irishman rather than a black dude with a white mother. Its a separate topic than race but still ties in to a degree.

Obviously you think of him as both an Irishman and a black dude with a white mother, or you couldn't have chosen him as an example.

And I am going to challenge you on all of your justifications on being uncomfortable describing yourself as "white", because so far they're all variations on "I don't see race".

I do see race. If I look at someone, skin color is one of the most obvious things about them. I guess my point is that since someone's skin color doesn't really tell me anything about them that it is largely useless information, whereas where they grew up or where their parents are from gives me a better idea of what has shaped them. Obviously I'm a white guy, but that's such a broad label that it's meaningless. It's not just discomfort at thinking of myself as white, I don't look at myself in the mirror and go, I'm a white guy. The thought just doesn't even occur to me.

I agree with the "skin color doesn't really tell me anything about them," but unless a person's origin is obvious (they've got an accent or dress in "ethnic" clothing) or they're self-consciously conspicuous about it (they can't go five minutes without reminding you that they're Irish right down to their shamrock tattoo), you don't typically find out a person's origin/ancestry until you've already filed them into some other compartment ("sports nut" or "anime nerd" or "Dave").

As for reactions to people I encounter randomly on the street, skin color is a factor in how I react to them (because I'm an American and therefore at least a little racist by default), but the way they dress, walk, and talk is going to be just as important. A white guy with a shaved head and lots of ink carrying a gun is going to worry more a lot more than a black guy in business casual packing heat.

Actually, that is one instance in which I notice that a white guy is white, since it goes with all the other cues presented with it. I get nervous around white guys with shaved heads and a particular manor of dress, whether they're armed or not. I've seen a couple of skins around. Not often but I always kinda cringe when I do. But I'm also a white dude with a shaved head. It's the other visual cues that draw attention to their skin color.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

True. I guess thats part of my discomfort describing myself as white. I might have more in common with a hypothetical black bostonian with an irish immigrant parent than my midwestern friends. But that goes back to a previous post. I think of phil lynnott as an irishman rather than a black dude with a white mother. Its a separate topic than race but still ties in to a degree.

Obviously you think of him as both an Irishman and a black dude with a white mother, or you couldn't have chosen him as an example.

And I am going to challenge you on all of your justifications on being uncomfortable describing yourself as "white", because so far they're all variations on "I don't see race".

I do see race. If I look at someone, skin color is one of the most obvious things about them. I guess my point is that since someone's skin color doesn't really tell me anything about them that it is largely useless information, whereas where they grew up or where their parents are from gives me a better idea of what has shaped them. Obviously I'm a white guy, but that's such a broad label that it's meaningless. It's not just discomfort at thinking of myself as white, I don't look at myself in the mirror and go, I'm a white guy. The thought just doesn't even occur to me.

It is typical of white people to not think of themselves in terms of race, because as we discussed earlier in the thread, you don't, typically, have any reason to.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I really had a lot more to say but I have a shit ton of Sociology reading to do. 

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Yeah i accept that. But i guess once i find out more about that particular person i try and not categorize them by skin color. Like if i hear a black dude speaking creole i am more than happy to stop thinking about him as black and start thinking of him as haitian. I suppose its silly. I dont imagine ill be able to make sense out of my own thoughts on it anytime soon but i am being more mindful about it. It might be an interesting experiment for me to start deliberately noticing white people as white.

[Phox]

Yeah i accept that. But i guess once i find out more about that particular person i try and not categorize them by skin color. Like if i hear a black dude speaking creole i am more than happy to stop thinking about him as black and start thinking of him as haitian. I suppose its silly. I dont imagine ill be able to make sense out of my own thoughts on it anytime soon but i am being more mindful about it. It might be an interesting experiment for me to start deliberately noticing white people as white.

You should come here and go to some of the divey little bars in the backwoods with me. Then talk to a couple of people and refer to previous conversations by saying "I was talking to that white dude over there, and..." It'll be fun, I promise. 

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Oh man. That would actually be great for omf anywhere. Perfect really since its challenging peoples perceptions.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Maybe even extend it in some cases and go "i think that dude over there is kinda straight but im not really sure."