Why I'm not an Atheist

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So, this idea that we have some core "me" which can survive after the brain dies... once you know that, there is no turning back.  Death isn't a something, like LMNO's quoted play said.  It's the nothing.

Assumes facts not in evidence.  The hypothesis is not testable.

However, given that we don't know, the only rational behavior is to have as much fun here and now as circumstances may allow.

If you mean that the core "me" dying with the brain is untestable, I'd point to studies of people with severe brain trauma.  They become completely different people, often disgusted by who they were before.  That seems reasonably to indicate that who we are is largely based on our genetics and the chemicals flowing through our brain, doesn't it?  Or am I misreading your point?

Saying a "soul" can't change is to accept the concept of original sin, which is the lazy man's way of getting out of rolling in the gutter like the rest of us.

Where did I say a soul can't change?  I thought I was refuting the very notion of a soul.

And I am pointing out that your refutation merely implies that a soul could just as easily be mutable, based on the scenario you provided.  It also implies that the soul may or may not be connected to your cognition.

[hooplala]

So, this idea that we have some core "me" which can survive after the brain dies... once you know that, there is no turning back.  Death isn't a something, like LMNO's quoted play said.  It's the nothing.

Assumes facts not in evidence.  The hypothesis is not testable.

However, given that we don't know, the only rational behavior is to have as much fun here and now as circumstances may allow.

If you mean that the core "me" dying with the brain is untestable, I'd point to studies of people with severe brain trauma.  They become completely different people, often disgusted by who they were before.  That seems reasonably to indicate that who we are is largely based on our genetics and the chemicals flowing through our brain, doesn't it?  Or am I misreading your point?

Saying a "soul" can't change is to accept the concept of original sin, which is the lazy man's way of getting out of rolling in the gutter like the rest of us.

Where did I say a soul can't change?  I thought I was refuting the very notion of a soul.

And I am pointing out that your refutation merely implies that a soul could just as easily be mutable, based on the scenario you provided.  It also implies that the soul may or may not be connected to your cognition.

Ok, that's possible, yes.  But if your soul isn't you, than who is it?

Wait, sorry, this is now veering way off topic.  Sorry Nigel.  But yes, that's an interesting point Roger, I hadn't considered that.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So, this idea that we have some core "me" which can survive after the brain dies... once you know that, there is no turning back.  Death isn't a something, like LMNO's quoted play said.  It's the nothing.

Assumes facts not in evidence.  The hypothesis is not testable.

However, given that we don't know, the only rational behavior is to have as much fun here and now as circumstances may allow.

If you mean that the core "me" dying with the brain is untestable, I'd point to studies of people with severe brain trauma.  They become completely different people, often disgusted by who they were before.  That seems reasonably to indicate that who we are is largely based on our genetics and the chemicals flowing through our brain, doesn't it?  Or am I misreading your point?

Saying a "soul" can't change is to accept the concept of original sin, which is the lazy man's way of getting out of rolling in the gutter like the rest of us.

Where did I say a soul can't change?  I thought I was refuting the very notion of a soul.

And I am pointing out that your refutation merely implies that a soul could just as easily be mutable, based on the scenario you provided.  It also implies that the soul may or may not be connected to your cognition.

Ok, that's possible, yes.  But if your soul isn't you, than who is it?

Wait, sorry, this is now veering way off topic.  Sorry Nigel.  But yes, that's an interesting point Roger, I hadn't considered that.

One theory I had was that the "good" part of your "soul" is the only part that moves on to whatever.

So Gandi shows up at about 80%.

Buddha, probably 99%.

Hitler shows up in heaven as a flatworm.  Or Rebecca Black.  Something like that.

[Cramulus]

If you mean that the core "me" dying with the brain is untestable, I'd point to studies of people with severe brain trauma.  They become completely different people, often disgusted by who they were before.  That seems reasonably to indicate that who we are is largely based on our genetics and the chemicals flowing through our brain, doesn't it?  Or am I misreading your point?

as long as we're out here in bat country, let me play devil's advocate for a sec



maybe consciousness isn't a product of the brain, but is facilitated by it

like maybe consciousness is like a television signal being broadcast from somewhere - our particular neural hardware is the receiver, like a television antennae

then brain damage is just a bent antennae, the signal is fine, but it's being interpreted as static and noise

[The Good Reverend Roger]

If you mean that the core "me" dying with the brain is untestable, I'd point to studies of people with severe brain trauma.  They become completely different people, often disgusted by who they were before.  That seems reasonably to indicate that who we are is largely based on our genetics and the chemicals flowing through our brain, doesn't it?  Or am I misreading your point?

as long as we're out here in bat country, let me play devil's advocate for a sec



maybe consciousness isn't a product of the brain, but is facilitated by it

like maybe consciousness is like a television signal being broadcast from somewhere - our particular neural hardware is the receiver, like a television antennae

then brain damage is just a bent antennae, the signal is fine, but it's being interpreted as static and noise

Equally possible.  Also kinda fun.  Also explains Ernie's belief.

TGRR,
Driving his remote control meat around with a low battery and cell phone interference.

[Lord Cataplanga]

If you mean that the core "me" dying with the brain is untestable, I'd point to studies of people with severe brain trauma.  They become completely different people, often disgusted by who they were before.  That seems reasonably to indicate that who we are is largely based on our genetics and the chemicals flowing through our brain, doesn't it?  Or am I misreading your point?

as long as we're out here in bat country, let me play devil's advocate for a sec



maybe consciousness isn't a product of the brain, but is facilitated by it

like maybe consciousness is like a television signal being broadcast from somewhere - our particular neural hardware is the receiver, like a television antennae

then brain damage is just a bent antennae, the signal is fine, but it's being interpreted as static and noise

But what about feedback? You need a transmitter in your brain too, not just a receiving antenna, so your sensory input can reach your "soul".

That means when you die, the brain's transmitter is broken, and your soul is stuck in limbo with no means to perceive anything or communicate with the outside world 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

If you mean that the core "me" dying with the brain is untestable, I'd point to studies of people with severe brain trauma.  They become completely different people, often disgusted by who they were before.  That seems reasonably to indicate that who we are is largely based on our genetics and the chemicals flowing through our brain, doesn't it?  Or am I misreading your point?

as long as we're out here in bat country, let me play devil's advocate for a sec



maybe consciousness isn't a product of the brain, but is facilitated by it

like maybe consciousness is like a television signal being broadcast from somewhere - our particular neural hardware is the receiver, like a television antennae

then brain damage is just a bent antennae, the signal is fine, but it's being interpreted as static and noise

But what about feedback? You need a transmitter in your brain too, not just a receiving antenna, so your sensory input can reach your "soul".

That means when you die, the brain's transmitter is broken, and your soul is stuck in limbo with no means to perceive anything or communicate with the outside world 

Or it goes back to whatever it was doing before it decided to play meat puppet races.

Or it grabs another one and jumps back in the race.

[hooplala]

If you mean that the core "me" dying with the brain is untestable, I'd point to studies of people with severe brain trauma.  They become completely different people, often disgusted by who they were before.  That seems reasonably to indicate that who we are is largely based on our genetics and the chemicals flowing through our brain, doesn't it?  Or am I misreading your point?

as long as we're out here in bat country, let me play devil's advocate for a sec



maybe consciousness isn't a product of the brain, but is facilitated by it

like maybe consciousness is like a television signal being broadcast from somewhere - our particular neural hardware is the receiver, like a television antennae

then brain damage is just a bent antennae, the signal is fine, but it's being interpreted as static and noise

I'm reading Philip K Dick's Exegesis right now, slowly, and your post merges with what he writes about, to the point of...

[P3nT4gR4m]

If you mean that the core "me" dying with the brain is untestable, I'd point to studies of people with severe brain trauma.  They become completely different people, often disgusted by who they were before.  That seems reasonably to indicate that who we are is largely based on our genetics and the chemicals flowing through our brain, doesn't it?  Or am I misreading your point?

as long as we're out here in bat country, let me play devil's advocate for a sec



maybe consciousness isn't a product of the brain, but is facilitated by it

like maybe consciousness is like a television signal being broadcast from somewhere - our particular neural hardware is the receiver, like a television antennae

then brain damage is just a bent antennae, the signal is fine, but it's being interpreted as static and noise

But what about feedback? You need a transmitter in your brain too, not just a receiving antenna, so your sensory input can reach your "soul".

That means when you die, the brain's transmitter is broken, and your soul is stuck in limbo with no means to perceive anything or communicate with the outside world 

It's not quite that nice. What actually happens is you stay conscious, as you are now, fully aware just unable to move or talk or act in any way. All you can do is lie there and feel and smell and taste yourself rotting.

Cremation is worse.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

If you mean that the core "me" dying with the brain is untestable, I'd point to studies of people with severe brain trauma.  They become completely different people, often disgusted by who they were before.  That seems reasonably to indicate that who we are is largely based on our genetics and the chemicals flowing through our brain, doesn't it?  Or am I misreading your point?

as long as we're out here in bat country, let me play devil's advocate for a sec



maybe consciousness isn't a product of the brain, but is facilitated by it

like maybe consciousness is like a television signal being broadcast from somewhere - our particular neural hardware is the receiver, like a television antennae

then brain damage is just a bent antennae, the signal is fine, but it's being interpreted as static and noise

But what about feedback? You need a transmitter in your brain too, not just a receiving antenna, so your sensory input can reach your "soul".

That means when you die, the brain's transmitter is broken, and your soul is stuck in limbo with no means to perceive anything or communicate with the outside world 

It's not quite that nice. What actually happens is you stay conscious, as you are now, fully aware just unable to move or talk or act in any way. All you can do is lie there and feel and smell and taste yourself rotting.

Cremation is worse.

This is why I'm going to a "corpse farm".

I'd love to work at one of those.  I'd go out before my coworkers and hide in one of the wrecked cars.  Then I'd jump out, yelling "BRAINS!"

Or I'd just leave tape recorders here and there, saying "HELP ME!  WHERE AM I?  OH GAAAAAWD!"

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I want to go to a corpse farm because IMO it's bullshit for all that perfectly good meat to just go to waste.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I want to go to a corpse farm because IMO it's bullshit for all that perfectly good meat to just go to waste.

Yep.  And there's no Nigel/TGRR futures market, so off to the corpse farm we go.

[LMNO]

I keep telling people that my will has a recipe for a stew to be made with my body, so everyone at my wake will have to eat me.

I should probably talk to ECH about a good flavor profile.

[Chelagoras The Boulder]

from what i've heard, human flesh is like well-marbled pork, so i've imagine you wanna go for something rich and savory .

[tyrannosaurus vex]

If you mean that the core "me" dying with the brain is untestable, I'd point to studies of people with severe brain trauma.  They become completely different people, often disgusted by who they were before.  That seems reasonably to indicate that who we are is largely based on our genetics and the chemicals flowing through our brain, doesn't it?  Or am I misreading your point?

as long as we're out here in bat country, let me play devil's advocate for a sec



maybe consciousness isn't a product of the brain, but is facilitated by it

like maybe consciousness is like a television signal being broadcast from somewhere - our particular neural hardware is the receiver, like a television antennae

then brain damage is just a bent antennae, the signal is fine, but it's being interpreted as static and noise

But what about feedback? You need a transmitter in your brain too, not just a receiving antenna, so your sensory input can reach your "soul".

That means when you die, the brain's transmitter is broken, and your soul is stuck in limbo with no means to perceive anything or communicate with the outside world 

This assumes some standard/mainstream notion of the nature of one's soul. I have no idea whether souls (as such) exist or not, there is no really convincing evidence one way or another as to whether consciousness is derived entirely from biology. It may be that the traditional definition of "soul" -- that a person's specific consciousness emanates from some higher reality where it is as dissimilar to other "souls" as its representation here is to other souls' representations here -- is entirely false. Maybe there is only one "soul," and it experiences itself by fragmenting and being displayed through little receivers that are unaware of the process.

On one hand, as Hoopla has pointed out, every outward (and possibly inward) sign of consciousness depends on the biological matter processing that consciousness. Brain damage and brain disease can fundamentally alter everything about consciousness, including the ability to tell whether or not anything has changed.

On the other hand I think our modern, "scientific" consensus worldview tends to willfully ignore things that can't be readily explained. I'm not a fullblown hippie or anything but I see no reason not to entertain the notion of the kind of "broadcast consciousness" that Cram mentions. I listen to crackpots all the time, and for some reason I'm told that while crackpots in general are bad, it's better to listen to crackpots like CEOs and Department Managers and Politicians, than to crackpots like shamans and consciousness explorers and LSD Believers. I don't buy into the "massive intentional conspiracy" thing, but I do think there's something to the idea that the way we experience reality and our own places in that reality is artificially limited to a subset of possible experiences. Like a TV that's not allowed to show more than 2 or 3 channels when there may be hundreds it could receive.

How this relates directly to religion and an afterlife is uncertain for me, except to say that it seems awfully short-sighted to immediately write off everything that is not already explained when the means we use to explain things is inherently and admittedly incomplete. Even most of the fundamental bases for science are rough approximations and working hypotheses.