US prison bans all books – except The Bible
A jail in the US state of South Carolina has banned all book and reading materials except for the Christian Bible. Critics argue there is simply no good reason to ban books.
The American Civil Liberties Union has filed a lawsuit arguing the Berkeley County detention center's policy is unconstitutional.
"Our inmates are only allowed to receive soft back bibles in the mail directly from the publisher. They are not allowed to have magazines, newspapers, or any other type of books," a prison employee once said in an email to Prison Legal News, who is also working to sue alongside the ACLU.
"Prisoners who are incarcerated for extended periods of time have been deprived of access to magazines, newspapers and books – other than the Bible – for months or even years on end," noted the ACLU.
https://rt.com/usa/news/us-prison-bans-books/
So what happens if a Jewish guy gets incarcerated?
Yeah, that's right.
JEBUS SAVED US!
/
:teabagger1:
Also, BTW, aren't they still supposed to have legal access to a law library?
That is so massively fucked up. It's cruelty.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 06:21:26 PM
Also, BTW, aren't they still supposed to have legal access to a law library?
You're SO 20th century, Stella.
This is the New America™. If they weren't guilty, they wouldn't have been arrested in the first place.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 11, 2011, 06:07:08 PM
So what happens if a Jewish guy gets incarcerated?
Yeah, that's right.
what better place than prison to finally accept jesus christ as your lord and savior? :lulz:
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 06:21:26 PM
Also, BTW, aren't they still supposed to have legal access to a law library?
Why would prisoners need to be educate themselves about anything except TEH LOARD JEZUS!
Quote from: Aloe on May 11, 2011, 06:28:43 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 06:21:26 PM
Also, BTW, aren't they still supposed to have legal access to a law library?
Why would prisoners need to be educate themselves about anything except TEH LOARD JEZUS!
Because God forbid they learn any sort of occupational skill while in prison.
Here's why: Because keeping them in the system, or bringing them back shortly after they leave, means they can be whored out to call centers, etc, for pennies a day.
So allowing them to relax or learn something doesn't help the bottom line.
That's really all there is to it, and they can certainly rely on the hair-shirt punishment crowd to back them on this.
I dunno...they could become priests, and replace all the ones being put inside for child abuse.
We'd also get a better class of criminal priest. "So your pastor touched you up. Mine killed three people and ate their raw hearts".
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 11, 2011, 06:25:14 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 06:21:26 PM
Also, BTW, aren't they still supposed to have legal access to a law library?
You're SO 20th century, Stella.
This is the New America™. If they weren't guilty, they wouldn't have been arrested in the first place.
Amen, Reverend. I am surprised some people still think Americans have rights.
Quote from: Cain on May 11, 2011, 06:34:36 PM
I dunno...they could become priests, and replace all the ones being put inside for child abuse.
We'd also get a better class of criminal priest. "So your pastor touched you up. Mine killed three people and ate their raw hearts".
Post of the fucking day. :lulz:
Wow..
Just....
:crankey: :crankey:
Also note the banning of Newspapers. Who needs to keep up on current events?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 11, 2011, 06:07:08 PM
So what happens if a Jewish guy gets incarcerated?
Yeah, that's right.
That back section is perforated. They just tear it right out.
This is dangerously close to attempting to establish a state religion, and the SCOTUS will bitch slap it out of existence.
"Private" prisons could probably get away with it, right? Or not, because they are taking government money?
Quote from: Cain on May 11, 2011, 06:55:58 PM
"Private" prisons could probably get away with it, right? Or not, because they are taking government money?
I think any prison that accepts federal funds is bound by terms and agreements.
What the fuck? Are they trying to make a real life Shawshank? But really, they are ignoring the obvious practical point of all this which is keeping prisoners, and more to the point prisoner's minds, active is going to go along way to maintain the peace. Just letting them sit and stew in their cells is just asking for it.
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 11, 2011, 06:58:18 PM
What the fuck? Are they trying to make a real life Shawshank? But really, they are ignoring the obvious practical point of all this which is keeping prisoners, and more to the point prisoner's minds, active is going to go along way to maintain the peace. Just letting them sit and stew in their cells is just asking for it.
Like Roger said, prisons aren't about rehab or punishment anymore, it is now Big Business™.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 11, 2011, 06:25:14 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 06:21:26 PM
Also, BTW, aren't they still supposed to have legal access to a law library?
You're SO 20th century, Stella.
This is the New America™. If they weren't guilty, they wouldn't have been arrested in the first place.
Of course.
How could I forget. :hanging:
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 11, 2011, 06:59:53 PM
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 11, 2011, 06:58:18 PM
What the fuck? Are they trying to make a real life Shawshank? But really, they are ignoring the obvious practical point of all this which is keeping prisoners, and more to the point prisoner's minds, active is going to go along way to maintain the peace. Just letting them sit and stew in their cells is just asking for it.
Like Roger said, prisons aren't about rehab or punishment anymore, it is now Big Business™.
Well, yeah, but if they riot the state ends up killing off it's slave labor force.
Who's gonna build those missiles to send to the middle east?
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 07:05:06 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 11, 2011, 06:59:53 PM
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 11, 2011, 06:58:18 PM
What the fuck? Are they trying to make a real life Shawshank? But really, they are ignoring the obvious practical point of all this which is keeping prisoners, and more to the point prisoner's minds, active is going to go along way to maintain the peace. Just letting them sit and stew in their cells is just asking for it.
Like Roger said, prisons aren't about rehab or punishment anymore, it is now Big Business™.
Well, yeah, but if they riot the state ends up killing off it's slave labor force.
Who's gonna build those missiles to send to the middle east?
The victims of a police sweep for anyone holding 0.8 oz of pot. Backfilling inmate spots is built into the system.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 11, 2011, 06:53:28 PM
This is dangerously close to attempting to establish a state religion, and the SCOTUS will bitch slap it out of existence.
HOPEY HOPEY CHANGE CHANGE
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 07:05:06 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 11, 2011, 06:59:53 PM
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 11, 2011, 06:58:18 PM
What the fuck? Are they trying to make a real life Shawshank? But really, they are ignoring the obvious practical point of all this which is keeping prisoners, and more to the point prisoner's minds, active is going to go along way to maintain the peace. Just letting them sit and stew in their cells is just asking for it.
Like Roger said, prisons aren't about rehab or punishment anymore, it is now Big Business™.
Well, yeah, but if they riot the state ends up killing off it's slave labor force.
Who's gonna build those missiles to send to the middle east?
Shank all you want, they'll make more.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 11, 2011, 07:09:16 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 11, 2011, 06:53:28 PM
This is dangerously close to attempting to establish a state religion, and the SCOTUS will bitch slap it out of existence.
HOPEY HOPEY CHANGE CHANGE
:cry:
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 11, 2011, 07:09:10 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 07:05:06 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 11, 2011, 06:59:53 PM
Quote from: R.W.H.N. on May 11, 2011, 06:58:18 PM
What the fuck? Are they trying to make a real life Shawshank? But really, they are ignoring the obvious practical point of all this which is keeping prisoners, and more to the point prisoner's minds, active is going to go along way to maintain the peace. Just letting them sit and stew in their cells is just asking for it.
Like Roger said, prisons aren't about rehab or punishment anymore, it is now Big Business™.
Well, yeah, but if they riot the state ends up killing off it's slave labor force.
Who's gonna build those missiles to send to the middle east?
The victims of a police sweep for anyone holding 0.8 oz of pot. Backfilling inmate spots is built into the system.
True.
And when that plays out, the CIA can just bring in another fuckload of heroin.
:lulz:
Well, felons lose their "civil" rights upon conviction.....
Not that anyone has them anymore, but....
Just sayin....
Yeah, it stays with them awhile, too.
So when they're released and they can't get work because they're felons, and they can't get food stamps because they're felons, they rob your ass but it's to get 'em back in to build more missiles..THIS IS FOR AMERICA! LIKE YOUR GRANDMA'S VICTORY GARDEN!
The Prison Industrial Complex Is... (http://chicagopiccollective.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/finaldraftpiczine4-13-11.pdf)
Quote from: Telarus on May 11, 2011, 10:40:14 PM
The Prison Industrial Complex Is... (http://chicagopiccollective.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/finaldraftpiczine4-13-11.pdf)
ok, yeah, I get it. I've even been known myself to rail against the privatization of the prison system and the running of for profit prisons. There should be no private prisons if only the state is responsible for writing, enforcing and adjudicating people who break laws.
But that presentation completely leaves out the fact that the only way to end up in the system is to break laws that are on the books. I'm not saying all laws are created equal nor are all people treated equally, but the fact is that since I turned 18 and made the decision not to break any laws as an adult, I've haven't spent a single day in jail. Fortunately, I never got caught for some of the big ones I broke when I was a juvenile.
Drug convictions aside, repeat offenders of crimes against person or property are a reality, and incarcerating them is the only viable option. Rehabilitation, while possible for the ones who WANT it, just doesn't work for everyone, and prison's seem to function a bit like drug counseling for people who aren't receptive to it i.e. it's a place to meet other people who like drugs and learn new ways to acquire them.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 11, 2011, 11:11:22 PM
But that presentation completely leaves out the fact that the only way to end up in the system is to break laws that are on the books.
By now, there's probably a few hundred people who have been released on DNA evidence who would disagree with that.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 11:47:09 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 11, 2011, 11:11:22 PM
But that presentation completely leaves out the fact that the only way to end up in the system is to break laws that are on the books.
By now, there's probably a few hundred people who have been released on DNA evidence who would disagree with that.
Granted, but we're getting better at taking that evidence into consideration. We're adapting to the technology. Admittedly slowly, but it's happening. And a few hundred is probably a conservative estimate, though I haven't any figures at the moment to say otherwise.
It is still a system created by humans, with all of the problems that entails.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 11, 2011, 11:11:22 PM
But that presentation completely leaves out the fact that the only way to end up in the system is to break laws that are on the books. I'm not saying all laws are created equal nor are all people treated equally, but the fact is that since I turned 18 and made the decision not to break any laws as an adult, I've haven't spent a single day in jail. Fortunately, I never got caught for some of the big ones I broke when I was a juvenile.
Because you're innocent, and not lucky...because innocent people never get accused of - or convicted of - crimes they didn't commit.
RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 11, 2011, 11:54:45 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 11:47:09 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 11, 2011, 11:11:22 PM
But that presentation completely leaves out the fact that the only way to end up in the system is to break laws that are on the books.
By now, there's probably a few hundred people who have been released on DNA evidence who would disagree with that.
Granted, but we're getting better at taking that evidence into consideration. We're adapting to the technology. Admittedly slowly, but it's happening. And a few hundred is probably a conservative estimate, though I haven't any figures at the moment to say otherwise.
It is still a system created by humans, with all of the problems that entails.
Yeah. I got dragged though the criminal justice system by the heels a few years back, and I can tell you this: Whether or not you go to jail is determined SOLELY by what quality of lawyer you can AFFORD.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 12:44:08 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 11, 2011, 11:11:22 PM
But that presentation completely leaves out the fact that the only way to end up in the system is to break laws that are on the books. I'm not saying all laws are created equal nor are all people treated equally, but the fact is that since I turned 18 and made the decision not to break any laws as an adult, I've haven't spent a single day in jail. Fortunately, I never got caught for some of the big ones I broke when I was a juvenile.
Because you're innocent, and not lucky...because innocent people never get accused of - or convicted of - crimes they didn't commit.
RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT?
QuoteIt is still a system created by humans, with all of the problems that entails.
would you rather have no system at all? Should lawyers not be paid better for doing more research and being more dedicated to a case than the guy who advises you to plead out? I'm actually truly interested in your thoughts on this Rev.
And because if you DO violate the law and get caught, no matter what the law was or what (if any) impact your crime had on the well-being of other people, the single best way to deal with you is to lock you in a cage and send you to work in the sweatshop making uniforms for McDonalds workers for 25 cents an hour.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 01:00:21 AM
And because if you DO violate the law and get caught, no matter what the law was or what (if any) impact your crime had on the well-being of other people, the single best way to deal with you is to lock you in a cage and send you to work in the sweatshop making uniforms for McDonalds workers for 25 cents an hour.
CLEARLY
I mean,
GOSH.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 01:00:21 AM
And because if you DO violate the law and get caught, no matter what the law was or what (if any) impact your crime had on the well-being of other people, the single best way to deal with you is to lock you in a cage and send you to work in the sweatshop making uniforms for McDonalds workers for 25 cents an hour.
I was pretty specific about crimes against person or property. I'm more for educating those we have to incarcerate because they repeatedly break the social compact. Forced labor for profit is still slavery. I have no issues with putting people sentenced to long term time to work that benefits those of us who make the decision to not break laws.
It is a decision.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 12:49:17 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 12:44:08 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 11, 2011, 11:11:22 PM
But that presentation completely leaves out the fact that the only way to end up in the system is to break laws that are on the books. I'm not saying all laws are created equal nor are all people treated equally, but the fact is that since I turned 18 and made the decision not to break any laws as an adult, I've haven't spent a single day in jail. Fortunately, I never got caught for some of the big ones I broke when I was a juvenile.
Because you're innocent, and not lucky...because innocent people never get accused of - or convicted of - crimes they didn't commit.
RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT?
QuoteIt is still a system created by humans, with all of the problems that entails.
would you rather have no system at all? Should lawyers not be paid better for doing more research and being more dedicated to a case than the guy who advises you to plead out? I'm actually truly interested in your thoughts on this Rev.
No, I was just pointing out that the fact that YOU have avoided trouble doesn't mean it doesn't randomly find others.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:06:01 AM
I have no issues with putting people sentenced to long term time to work that benefits those of us who make the decision to not break laws.
And I have no issue with you being sentenced to long term time to work that benefits those of us that made the decision to not be unlucky enough to be falsely accused.
It is a decision.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:08:38 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 12:49:17 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 12:44:08 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 11, 2011, 11:11:22 PM
But that presentation completely leaves out the fact that the only way to end up in the system is to break laws that are on the books. I'm not saying all laws are created equal nor are all people treated equally, but the fact is that since I turned 18 and made the decision not to break any laws as an adult, I've haven't spent a single day in jail. Fortunately, I never got caught for some of the big ones I broke when I was a juvenile.
Because you're innocent, and not lucky...because innocent people never get accused of - or convicted of - crimes they didn't commit.
RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT?
QuoteIt is still a system created by humans, with all of the problems that entails.
would you rather have no system at all? Should lawyers not be paid better for doing more research and being more dedicated to a case than the guy who advises you to plead out? I'm actually truly interested in your thoughts on this Rev.
No, I was just pointing out that the fact that YOU have avoided trouble doesn't mean it doesn't randomly find others.
I don't subscribe to randomness where humans are concerned. Much as I don't consider car wrecks to be "accidents"
yes, there will be occasions where the wrong guy is targeted. We're getting much better at discovering this, considering how bad things were for the entirety of law up until the discovery of DNA.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:12:47 AM
I don't subscribe to randomness where humans are concerned. Much as I don't consider car wrecks to be "accidents"
yes, there will be occasions where the wrong guy is targeted. We're getting much better at discovering this, considering how bad things were for the entirety of law up until the discovery of DNA.
It has NOTHING TO DO WITH DNA.
Have you ever BEEN in a felony courtroom?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:09:38 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:06:01 AM
I have no issues with putting people sentenced to long term time to work that benefits those of us who make the decision to not break laws.
And I have no issue with you being sentenced to long term time to work that benefits those of us that made the decision to not be unlucky enough to be falsely accused.
so you'd toss the entire system because it snares and ruins the life of a few? Even as advances are made that help prevent this?
I don't often find myself on the side of the executive branch of law enforcement, or any really unless it involves damage to people and their wellbeing, but I can't believe that there's honestly a streak here that thinks the system is so flawed it is irredeemable.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:15:44 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:09:38 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:06:01 AM
I have no issues with putting people sentenced to long term time to work that benefits those of us who make the decision to not break laws.
And I have no issue with you being sentenced to long term time to work that benefits those of us that made the decision to not be unlucky enough to be falsely accused.
so you'd toss the entire system because it snares and ruins the life of a few? Even as advances are made that help prevent this?
Nope. I just find your take on it to be extremely offensive, in a Limbaugh-esque way, to the point where I actually hope you get to see it for yourself, as an innocent man scrambling to keep a lawyer paid.
And again, the problem has nothing to do with DNA, or other technical issues.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:14:28 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:12:47 AM
I don't subscribe to randomness where humans are concerned. Much as I don't consider car wrecks to be "accidents"
yes, there will be occasions where the wrong guy is targeted. We're getting much better at discovering this, considering how bad things were for the entirety of law up until the discovery of DNA.
It has NOTHING TO DO WITH DNA.
Have you ever BEEN in a felony courtroom?
I have not. Feel free to dismiss me and my positions on that fact. I wont take it personally, and you're right to connect that it means I can have little to no real information on the subject.
I was and am expressing my opinion.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:17:08 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:15:44 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:09:38 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:06:01 AM
I have no issues with putting people sentenced to long term time to work that benefits those of us who make the decision to not break laws.
And I have no issue with you being sentenced to long term time to work that benefits those of us that made the decision to not be unlucky enough to be falsely accused.
so you'd toss the entire system because it snares and ruins the life of a few? Even as advances are made that help prevent this?
Nope. I just find your take on it to be extremely offensive, in a Limbaugh-esque way, to the point where I actually hope you get to see it for yourself, as an innocent man scrambling to keep a lawyer paid.
And again, the problem has nothing to do with DNA, or other technical issues.
awww now I thought we could play nice. I'm nothing like that fuck.
People WILL sometimes be wrongly accused. Show me a legal system where this will not ever happen and I'll gladly back it. It doesn't exist.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:18:07 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:14:28 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:12:47 AM
I don't subscribe to randomness where humans are concerned. Much as I don't consider car wrecks to be "accidents"
yes, there will be occasions where the wrong guy is targeted. We're getting much better at discovering this, considering how bad things were for the entirety of law up until the discovery of DNA.
It has NOTHING TO DO WITH DNA.
Have you ever BEEN in a felony courtroom?
I have not. Feel free to dismiss me and my positions on that fact. I wont take it personally, and you're right to connect that it means I can have little to no real information on the subject.
I was and am expressing my opinion.
Then you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. It's not Law & Order SVU. There aren't dramatic arguments about DNA evidence and ballistics experts. It's a great big fucking set of gears, and unless you can afford the grease, you get hauled through the machine, innocent or guilty. You are NOT, in reality, innocent until proven guilty. You are guilty until proven White middle class.
But, yeah, you're entitled to your opinion, just like every other fucking right wing yahoo in this country. Have it and be damned.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:12:47 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:08:38 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 12:49:17 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 12:44:08 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 11, 2011, 11:11:22 PM
But that presentation completely leaves out the fact that the only way to end up in the system is to break laws that are on the books. I'm not saying all laws are created equal nor are all people treated equally, but the fact is that since I turned 18 and made the decision not to break any laws as an adult, I've haven't spent a single day in jail. Fortunately, I never got caught for some of the big ones I broke when I was a juvenile.
Because you're innocent, and not lucky...because innocent people never get accused of - or convicted of - crimes they didn't commit.
RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT?
QuoteIt is still a system created by humans, with all of the problems that entails.
would you rather have no system at all? Should lawyers not be paid better for doing more research and being more dedicated to a case than the guy who advises you to plead out? I'm actually truly interested in your thoughts on this Rev.
No, I was just pointing out that the fact that YOU have avoided trouble doesn't mean it doesn't randomly find others.
I don't subscribe to randomness where humans are concerned. Much as I don't consider car wrecks to be "accidents"
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
Also, a "few people"?
:lulz:
The USA has 5% of the world's population, and 25% of it's convicts. 1 in 31 people are in prison, or being "supervised". Now, what are the fucking odds that America has MORE ACTUAL CRIMINALS than EVERY OTHER NATION ON EARTH?
:lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
Not being poor and Brown is a matter of personal responsibility, you know. 15 year old Jose may or may not have robbed that convenience store, but what the hell? He's smudgy and we caught him walking down the street 4 blocks away.
Nothing random about that.
Remember, kids! We commit more crimes that we did in the roaring 20s, right? RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg/693px-US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg.png)
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:20:52 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:18:07 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:14:28 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:12:47 AM
I don't subscribe to randomness where humans are concerned. Much as I don't consider car wrecks to be "accidents"
yes, there will be occasions where the wrong guy is targeted. We're getting much better at discovering this, considering how bad things were for the entirety of law up until the discovery of DNA.
It has NOTHING TO DO WITH DNA.
Have you ever BEEN in a felony courtroom?
I have not. Feel free to dismiss me and my positions on that fact. I wont take it personally, and you're right to connect that it means I can have little to no real information on the subject.
I was and am expressing my opinion.
Then you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. It's not Law & Order SVU. There aren't dramatic arguments about DNA evidence and ballistics experts. It's a great big fucking set of gears, and unless you can afford the grease, you get hauled through the machine, innocent or guilty. You are NOT, in reality, innocent until proven guilty. You are guilty until proven White middle class.
But, yeah, you're entitled to your opinion, just like every other fucking right wing yahoo in this country. Have it and be damned.
youre thoughts seem to be colored by your experience. I can respect that. Since I've only ever experienced being before a judge as a juvinille for a misdemeanor, that's all I can bring to this discussion as far as experience goes. I am aware that there are significant flaws and I'm not dismissing those. You have not offered an alternative.
But, yeah, you're entitled to your opinion, just like every other fucking right wing yahoo in this country. Have it and be damned.Your politicizing criminal law a bit there. I was always under the impression that law was reason free of emotion. Politicized and emotional as it may sometimes become, there are humans that would do other humans real harm on this planet and I'd prefer trial by jury of peers to the sorts of things you see happen in countries like Iran. Again, IT'S GOING TO HAVE FLAWS. Please present to me an idea of how you would do it better and I'll happily think of changing my mind to accept a better solution.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:30:09 AM
Also, a "few people"?
:lulz:
The USA has 5% of the world's population, and 25% of it's convicts. 1 in 31 people are in prison, or being "supervised". Now, what are the fucking odds that America has MORE ACTUAL CRIMINALS than EVERY OTHER NATION ON EARTH?
:lulz:
Don't worry when all those DNA tests come through that number will go right down
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:37:21 AM
Your politicizing criminal law a bit there.
Naw, I was making fun of an Objectivist.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:37:21 AM
I was always under the impression that law was reason free of emotion.
Are you also under the impression that the tooth fairy leaves money under your pillow? That Santa Claus brings toys to all the good little girls and boys? That, you know, we're all equal in the eyes of the law?
I did nothing that I was accused of, and the ONLY reason I am not in prison to this very day is that I could afford a lawyer with 5 rows of teeth (none of which are for chewing vegetables), and I could afford to travel to Illinois and back every time the prosecutor thought it would be funny to make me dance...Although, I gotta say, having seen the system, being White was definitely in my favor.
The person on their video was a foot shorter than me, olive-complected, with a bald spot that I don't have (I didn't buzz the head until after the trial), and it still took me tens of thousands of dollars, and two and a half years to deal with that shit.
Reason free of emotion, my ass. Have you ever even sat on a jury?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:37:21 AM
I was always under the impression that law was reason free of emotion.
I will now laugh derisively at you. Ha. Ha ha. Ha.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
You're Jose, walking down the street from school. Two cops see you, having just responded to a robbery call. You SORT OF fit the description, so hey, ho, you're face down on the back seat of the squad car, with a few new lumps, and the cops are holding a cheap gun you've never seen before, and grinning at you...Because their caseload just got easier, and they're gonna look good to the lieutenant.
Now, that wasn't "random" from the cops' point of view, but from yours, it was
random as hell. And lots of other random shit is about to happen to you. Oh, my, yes.
But that doesn't happen in
America, right? Cops never do that shit. And DAs never just ramrod kids like that through, and judges never allow it, because they're totally not smashed on the vodka in their "water" glass. No, sirree.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:42:08 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:37:21 AM
Your politicizing criminal law a bit there.
Naw, I was making fun of an Objectivist.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:37:21 AM
I was always under the impression that law was reason free of emotion.
Are you also under the impression that the tooth fairy leaves money under your pillow? That Santa Claus brings toys to all the good little girls and boys? That, you know, we're all equal in the eyes of the law?
I did nothing that I was accused of, and the ONLY reason I am not in prison to this very day is that I could afford a lawyer with 5 rows of teeth (none of which are for chewing vegetables), and I could afford to travel to Illinois and back every time the prosecutor thought it would be funny to make me dance.
The person on their video was a foot shorter than me, olive-complected, with a bald spot that I don't have (I didn't buzz the head until after the trial), and it still took me tens of thousands of dollars, and two and a half years to deal with that shit.
Reason free of emotion, my ass. Have you ever even sat on a jury?
again, it's never going to be a perfect system. ever. It's still based on 2000 some odd years of thought on the matter. Yes, emotion colors everything, even law. It's not supposed to, but it does. That's why there are checks in place to remove jurors who let their emotions decide before evidence is even presented, and to remove attorneys and judges who's personal opinions might color a verdict. That's why there's an appeal process, so that level heads with no stake can take another assessment of the evidence.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:49:31 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:42:08 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:37:21 AM
Your politicizing criminal law a bit there.
Naw, I was making fun of an Objectivist.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:37:21 AM
I was always under the impression that law was reason free of emotion.
Are you also under the impression that the tooth fairy leaves money under your pillow? That Santa Claus brings toys to all the good little girls and boys? That, you know, we're all equal in the eyes of the law?
I did nothing that I was accused of, and the ONLY reason I am not in prison to this very day is that I could afford a lawyer with 5 rows of teeth (none of which are for chewing vegetables), and I could afford to travel to Illinois and back every time the prosecutor thought it would be funny to make me dance.
The person on their video was a foot shorter than me, olive-complected, with a bald spot that I don't have (I didn't buzz the head until after the trial), and it still took me tens of thousands of dollars, and two and a half years to deal with that shit.
Reason free of emotion, my ass. Have you ever even sat on a jury?
again, it's never going to be a perfect system. ever. It's still based on 2000 some odd years of thought on the matter. Yes, emotion colors everything, even law. It's not supposed to, but it does. That's why there are checks in place to remove jurors who let their emotions decide before evidence is even presented, and to remove attorneys and judges who's personal opinions might color a verdict. That's why there's an appeal process, so that level heads with no stake can take another assessment of the evidence.
The system as it stands is not only not perfect, it's not
functional. Your innocence or guilt mean
nothing.
I've been on both sides of the pitchfork (peace officer and accused criminal), and it's hell either way.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:48:12 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
You're Jose, walking down the street from school. Two cops see you, having just responded to a robbery call. You SORT OF fit the description, so hey, ho, you're face down on the back seat of the squad car, with a few new lumps, and the cops are holding a cheap gun you've never seen before, and grinning at you...Because their caseload just got easier, and they're gonna look good to the lieutenant.
Now, that wasn't "random" from the cops' point of view, but from yours, it was random as hell. And lots of other random shit is about to happen to you. Oh, my, yes.
But that doesn't happen in America, right? Cops never do that shit. And DAs never just ramrod kids like that through, and judges never allow it, because they're totally not smashed on the vodka in their "water" glass. No, sirree.
That has nothing to do with the question. A crime was commited, a person was searched for that fit another person's description of that person. Mistakes will happen. Asshole cops will always be asshole cops. Again, give me another alternative to consider.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:54:22 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.
This town is strange in that you could pretty much smoke crack in the park across from the police department downtown and they wont care. I've actually got stoned in the police PARKING LOT in my youth, and no one cared. They don't care as long as your downtown where all the homeless people are and your not killing people your own your own.
If you so much as jaywalk or walk on the train tracks in the neighborhoods where people have front lawns the police throw a hissy fit. I could imagine what they are like in the gated community up on the hills.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:58:35 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:48:12 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
You're Jose, walking down the street from school. Two cops see you, having just responded to a robbery call. You SORT OF fit the description, so hey, ho, you're face down on the back seat of the squad car, with a few new lumps, and the cops are holding a cheap gun you've never seen before, and grinning at you...Because their caseload just got easier, and they're gonna look good to the lieutenant.
Now, that wasn't "random" from the cops' point of view, but from yours, it was random as hell. And lots of other random shit is about to happen to you. Oh, my, yes.
But that doesn't happen in America, right? Cops never do that shit. And DAs never just ramrod kids like that through, and judges never allow it, because they're totally not smashed on the vodka in their "water" glass. No, sirree.
That has nothing to do with the question. A crime was commited, a person was searched for that fit another person's description of that person. Mistakes will happen. Asshole cops will always be asshole cops. Again, give me another alternative to consider.
It has EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE QUESTION. Mistakes, my ass. Ever heard of a "drop"? A gun a policeman carries, with the serial numbers obliterated? Or a little baggie of weed he "finds" in your trunk? But that never happens. Not all the fucking time. Not in the land of the free.
Cops, as a rule, are not out to "solve the crime". They are out to reduce their caseload. This is especially true with detectives. When a policeman tells you that you have the right to remain silent, you SHUT THE FUCK UP. The only words you remember how to say are "I'd like a lawyer now, please.", NO MATTER WHAT THE COP SAYS, NO MATTER WHAT "DEALS" HE SAYS HE CAN'T MAKE IF YOU INVOLVE A LAWYER, and most ESPECIALLY if he asks "Do you think you NEED a lawyer?".
Another alternative, my hairy, diseased ass. This is REALITY. This is HOW THE SYSTEM ACTUALLY WORKS, no matter WHAT they told you in your criminal justice class.
DNA evidence.... really?
Disco find my personal thread on more information than you want to know (on my phone, can't link) and go the the supreme court link. After you read that come back and you and me, we'll fucking discuss our legal system, DNA and the rest of your wonderful ideas.
I love how people who don't really know dick about something can ramble on and on about it.
I've lived it. Lost a life to it. And I was just a fucking bystander. I can't even imagine if I'd been the one on trial.
Quote from: Khara on May 12, 2011, 02:11:24 AM
DNA evidence.... really?
Disco find my personal thread on more information than you want to know (on my phone, can't link) and go the the supreme court link. After you read that come back and you and me, we'll fucking discuss our legal system, DNA and the rest of your wonderful ideas.
I love how people who don't really know dick about something can ramble on and on about it.
I've lived it. Lost a life to it. And I was just a fucking bystander. I can't even imagine if I'd been the one on trial.
Apparently, that was a "decision" you made.
Fucking objectivists.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:12:47 AM
I don't subscribe to randomness where humans are concerned. Much as I don't consider car wrecks to be "accidents"
Oh, I'm sorry, I had been addressing you as though you were a biped. Now that I see this, I won't continue to make that mistake.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:54:22 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.
:cn:
If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked. I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.
while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.
So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.
I believe I'm starting to really understand now. It's terrifying btw.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:15:56 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:54:22 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.
:cn:
If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked. I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.
while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.
So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.
I believe I'm starting to really understand now. It's terrifying btw.
Oh, yeah, that stuff happens in smudgy, unfurnished countries...But not
here. Ho ho!
The only difference between here and a place like Mexico is that in the good old US of A, you need to add an extra zero or three to the bribe amount.
Now stop flapping your gums as though you even have the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about, please. You're obviously intent on ignoring the REALITY of our legal system in favor of some Houghton-Mifflin 6th grade civics class textbook.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 11:47:09 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 11, 2011, 11:11:22 PM
But that presentation completely leaves out the fact that the only way to end up in the system is to break laws that are on the books.
By now, there's probably a few hundred people who have been released on DNA evidence who would disagree with that.
Khara, I was responding directly to this.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:13:00 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:12:47 AM
I don't subscribe to randomness where humans are concerned. Much as I don't consider car wrecks to be "accidents"
Oh, I'm sorry, I had been addressing you as though you were a biped. Now that I see this, I won't continue to make that mistake.
yuk it up and provide no information to refute. I assert that no action any person can take can ever be considered to be random. Fuck, not even a computer program has been written that can be considered to produce a result that is truly random. It's all probability.
But yeah, go ahead and dismiss my point with nothing at all. Hell, I laughed. I find myself agreeing with you more than anyone else on this site, but that's because you just don't give a fuck, and I aspire to be more like that.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:15:56 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:54:22 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.
:cn:
If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked. I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.
while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.
So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.
I believe I'm starting to really understand now. It's terrifying btw.
No, no. You tell me how to figure out what these morons are doing. You tell me how to avoid getting hit by a snow plow. You tell me how that guy with that gun in that poor woman's face is going to react if he sees me looking at him. You tell me whether or not that state trooper is going to pull me over for swerving slightly. You tell me when that cyclist plans on illegally turning into the crosswalk without so much as a courtesy brake. What's the secret, Pickles? I'd like a complete list of rules for human behavior, if you please. Hell, I'd like it if you don't please.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 02:18:00 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:15:56 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:54:22 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.
:cn:
If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked. I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.
while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.
So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.
I believe I'm starting to really understand now. It's terrifying btw.
Oh, yeah, that stuff happens in smudgy, unfurnished countries...But not here. Ho ho!
jebus fuck, I never said it DIDN'T HAPPEN. Sometimes, I think you argue just to argue.
What, you think the "wrong people" don't get railroaded in countries where the melanin in your skin puts you in the minority?
name me a country that does it better for crimes against person or property.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:49:31 AM
again, it's never going to be a perfect system. ever.
Then why the hell are you OK with harsh punishments?
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:22:04 AM
You're obviously intent on ignoring the REALITY of our legal system in favor of some Houghton-Mifflin 6th grade civics class textbook.
:cn:
Wait a minute....
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 02:27:05 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:15:56 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:54:22 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.
:cn:
If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked. I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.
while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.
So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.
I believe I'm starting to really understand now. It's terrifying btw.
No, no. You tell me how to figure out what these morons are doing. You tell me how to avoid getting hit by a snow plow. You tell me how that guy with that gun in that poor woman's face is going to react if he sees me looking at him. You tell me whether or not that state trooper is going to pull me over for swerving slightly. You tell me when that cyclist plans on illegally turning into the crosswalk without so much as a courtesy brake. What's the secret, Pickles? I'd like a complete list of rules for human behavior, if you please. Hell, I'd like it if you don't please.
that's the problem, you can't predict what someone ELSE will do. That was never what I was contending. In any "event" that involves humans, you can trace back to a particular reason for the even occurring. At this level of reality, randomness, true randomness just does not occur.
Fuck, I thought we were talking about law.
1) THE system is actually 2 systems. 1 for those with fame/money (we only see the fame one, see example), and one for those without.
example: Willie Nelson got out of possession charges earlier this year by singing the judge's favorite song to him. See also, Paris Hilton.
2) DP, you really REALLY need to read this article on how the FBI and the local police stalked and entrapped the (ex)lead singer for ¡Tchkung! (the noise/arachinst band from a few years back), Rick Wilson. This is standard operating procedure, for the reasons the LEOs at the end of the article are quoted giving.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-long-con/Content?oid=7989613
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 02:28:33 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:49:31 AM
again, it's never going to be a perfect system. ever.
Then why the hell are you OK with harsh punishments?
because people can and do do horrible things to each other, and those who do should IMO face some form of consequence for their action.
flawed or not, if we didn't deal out harsh punishment, where's the incentive to NOT do horrible things?
this is basic shit. Parenting for example, and I've already admitted I know shit all about parenting but I know this: threat of punishment doesn't stop someone from doing something others would consider wrong. Guarantee of punishment goes a lot farther.
Quote from: Telarus on May 12, 2011, 02:36:46 AM
1) THE system is actually 2 systems. 1 for those with fame/money (we only see the fame one, see example), and one for those without.
example: Willie Nelson got out of possession charges earlier this year by singing the judge's favorite song to him. See also, Paris Hilton.
2) DP, you really REALLY need to read this article on how the FBI and the local police stalked and entrapped the (ex)lead singer for ¡Tchkung! (the noise/arachinst band from a few years back), Rick Wilson. This is standard operating procedure, for the reasons the LEOs at the end of the article are quoted giving.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-long-con/Content?oid=7989613
You're talking about privileged law, something I'm completely against. Tell me how you'd remove it and I'll back it.
2) DP, you really REALLY need to read this article on how the FBI and the local police stalked and entrapped the (ex)lead singer for ¡Tchkung! (the noise/arachinst band from a few years back), Rick Wilson. This is standard operating procedure, for the reasons the LEOs at the end of the article are quoted giving.There have always been bad cops, going back over the entirety of civilization. We created Internal Affairs to help with this. I'm not convinced it will ever be a perfect system either.
That tells me you didn't read the fucking article. The under-cover agent who entrapped people GOT A FUCKING MEDAL FOR IT.
"There'll always be some bad cops", my ASS.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:41:57 AM
Quote from: Telarus on May 12, 2011, 02:36:46 AM
1) THE system is actually 2 systems. 1 for those with fame/money (we only see the fame one, see example), and one for those without.
example: Willie Nelson got out of possession charges earlier this year by singing the judge's favorite song to him. See also, Paris Hilton.
2) DP, you really REALLY need to read this article on how the FBI and the local police stalked and entrapped the (ex)lead singer for ¡Tchkung! (the noise/arachinst band from a few years back), Rick Wilson. This is standard operating procedure, for the reasons the LEOs at the end of the article are quoted giving.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-long-con/Content?oid=7989613
You're talking about privileged law, something I'm completely against. Tell me how you'd remove it and I'll back it.
2) DP, you really REALLY need to read this article on how the FBI and the local police stalked and entrapped the (ex)lead singer for ¡Tchkung! (the noise/arachinst band from a few years back), Rick Wilson. This is standard operating procedure, for the reasons the LEOs at the end of the article are quoted giving.
There have always been bad cops, going back over the entirety of civilization. We created Internal Affairs to help with this. I'm not convinced it will ever be a perfect system either.
You didn't read the article. That was an entire corrupt department, backed by an entire corrupt system.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:22:04 AM
The only difference between here and a place like Mexico is that in the good old US of A, you need to add an extra zero or three to the bribe amount.
Now stop flapping your gums as though you even have the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about, please. You're obviously intent on ignoring the REALITY of our legal system in favor of some Houghton-Mifflin 6th grade civics class textbook.
Sorry, missed this. I've actually accepted the reality, and mentioned that often, while the discussion with everyone else has seemed to be "Law enforcement in the United States is bad but we have no alternatives to present."
I'd still gladly welcome a change in my perspective on this.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:45:25 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:22:04 AM
The only difference between here and a place like Mexico is that in the good old US of A, you need to add an extra zero or three to the bribe amount.
Now stop flapping your gums as though you even have the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about, please. You're obviously intent on ignoring the REALITY of our legal system in favor of some Houghton-Mifflin 6th grade civics class textbook.
Sorry, missed this. I've actually accepted the reality, and mentioned that often, while the discussion with everyone else has seemed to be "Law enforcement in the United States is bad but we have no alternatives to present."
I'd still gladly welcome a change in my perspective on this.
To start with, don't accept bullshit justifications for how prisoners are treated based on the idea that they're guilty.
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 02:44:38 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:41:57 AM
Quote from: Telarus on May 12, 2011, 02:36:46 AM
1) THE system is actually 2 systems. 1 for those with fame/money (we only see the fame one, see example), and one for those without.
example: Willie Nelson got out of possession charges earlier this year by singing the judge's favorite song to him. See also, Paris Hilton.
2) DP, you really REALLY need to read this article on how the FBI and the local police stalked and entrapped the (ex)lead singer for ¡Tchkung! (the noise/arachinst band from a few years back), Rick Wilson. This is standard operating procedure, for the reasons the LEOs at the end of the article are quoted giving.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-long-con/Content?oid=7989613
You're talking about privileged law, something I'm completely against. Tell me how you'd remove it and I'll back it.
2) DP, you really REALLY need to read this article on how the FBI and the local police stalked and entrapped the (ex)lead singer for ¡Tchkung! (the noise/arachinst band from a few years back), Rick Wilson. This is standard operating procedure, for the reasons the LEOs at the end of the article are quoted giving.
There have always been bad cops, going back over the entirety of civilization. We created Internal Affairs to help with this. I'm not convinced it will ever be a perfect system either.
You didn't read the article. That was an entire corrupt department, backed by an entire corrupt system.
Badabing.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:45:25 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:22:04 AM
The only difference between here and a place like Mexico is that in the good old US of A, you need to add an extra zero or three to the bribe amount.
Now stop flapping your gums as though you even have the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about, please. You're obviously intent on ignoring the REALITY of our legal system in favor of some Houghton-Mifflin 6th grade civics class textbook.
Sorry, missed this. I've actually accepted the reality, and mentioned that often, while the discussion with everyone else has seemed to be "Law enforcement in the United States is bad but we have no alternatives to present."
I'd still gladly welcome a change in my perspective on this.
Alternatives? How about a system that isn't pay-to-play?
Quote from: Telarus on May 12, 2011, 02:44:05 AM
That tells me you didn't read the fucking article. The under-cover agent who entrapped people GOT A FUCKING MEDAL FOR IT.
"There'll always be some bad cops", my ASS.
reading now, but the subtext of the title disqualifies it from this discussion as I was and am still talking about crimes against person and property and those who commit those crimes.
reading anyway.
[EDIT] alright, so we are talking about corruption at the executive level, so still relevant. That's what informed and attentive oversight is meant to help prevent. If the entire fucking CITY is in on it, move to another city and let that one fester.
How about a system where we exploit prisoners as if they are slave labor, we have harsh punishments, and we just shrug our shoulders that being arrested is a "choice"?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:49:05 AM
Quote from: Telarus on May 12, 2011, 02:44:05 AM
That tells me you didn't read the fucking article. The under-cover agent who entrapped people GOT A FUCKING MEDAL FOR IT.
"There'll always be some bad cops", my ASS.
reading now, but the subtext of the title disqualifies it from this discussion as I was and am still talking about crimes against person and property and those who commit those crimes.
reading anyway.
Yes, because the only people in prison are those who committed crimes against person or property? :? How do you even
begin to justify your contribution to this thread?
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 12, 2011, 02:49:47 AM
How about a system where we exploit prisoners as if they are slave labor, we have harsh punishments, and we just shrug our shoulders that being arrested is a "choice"?
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 02:44:38 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:41:57 AM
Quote from: Telarus on May 12, 2011, 02:36:46 AM
1) THE system is actually 2 systems. 1 for those with fame/money (we only see the fame one, see example), and one for those without.
example: Willie Nelson got out of possession charges earlier this year by singing the judge's favorite song to him. See also, Paris Hilton.
2) DP, you really REALLY need to read this article on how the FBI and the local police stalked and entrapped the (ex)lead singer for ¡Tchkung! (the noise/arachinst band from a few years back), Rick Wilson. This is standard operating procedure, for the reasons the LEOs at the end of the article are quoted giving.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-long-con/Content?oid=7989613
You're talking about privileged law, something I'm completely against. Tell me how you'd remove it and I'll back it.
2) DP, you really REALLY need to read this article on how the FBI and the local police stalked and entrapped the (ex)lead singer for ¡Tchkung! (the noise/arachinst band from a few years back), Rick Wilson. This is standard operating procedure, for the reasons the LEOs at the end of the article are quoted giving.
There have always been bad cops, going back over the entirety of civilization. We created Internal Affairs to help with this. I'm not convinced it will ever be a perfect system either.
You didn't read the article. That was an entire corrupt department, backed by an entire corrupt system.
"I didn't realize I was playing a chess game for my life with the FBI. They were playing chess, and I was off finger-painting in the corner."
For over 2 years.
"The defense lawyers will be bewildered by what they find in the discovery process—all the paperwork and evidence and audio and video surveillance accumulated by the two-year investigation that involved the FBI, SPD, SWAT teams, and federal firearms and immigration and customs agents. One defendant's discovery request turned up nearly 2,000 pages of documentation and over 100 CDs and DVDs, and even that defendant's attorney had to file extra requests because he said there were big gaps of time missing."
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 02:51:46 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:49:05 AM
Quote from: Telarus on May 12, 2011, 02:44:05 AM
That tells me you didn't read the fucking article. The under-cover agent who entrapped people GOT A FUCKING MEDAL FOR IT.
"There'll always be some bad cops", my ASS.
reading now, but the subtext of the title disqualifies it from this discussion as I was and am still talking about crimes against person and property and those who commit those crimes.
reading anyway.
Yes, because the only people in prison are those who committed crimes against person or property? :? How do you even begin to justify your contribution to this thread?
I earlier qualified by dismissing drug related offenses, and if I didn't include nonviolent offenses then it was an oversight. You'll find me very libertarian on drug laws and their enforcement. "Victimless Crimes" are not, in my opinion, crimes at all.
:backpedal:
ETA: That's called "ignoring reality".
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 12, 2011, 02:49:47 AM
How about a system where we exploit prisoners as if they are slave labor, we have harsh punishments, and we just shrug our shoulders that being arrested is a "choice"?
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Is being black a choice? How about being poor?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:54:17 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 02:51:46 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:49:05 AM
Quote from: Telarus on May 12, 2011, 02:44:05 AM
That tells me you didn't read the fucking article. The under-cover agent who entrapped people GOT A FUCKING MEDAL FOR IT.
"There'll always be some bad cops", my ASS.
reading now, but the subtext of the title disqualifies it from this discussion as I was and am still talking about crimes against person and property and those who commit those crimes.
reading anyway.
Yes, because the only people in prison are those who committed crimes against person or property? :? How do you even begin to justify your contribution to this thread?
I earlier qualified by dismissing drug related offenses, and if I didn't include nonviolent offenses then it was an oversight. You'll find me very libertarian on drug laws and their enforcement. "Victimless Crimes" are not, in my opinion, crimes at all.
I'm sorry, we're discussing the nature of the legal/judicial system
as it actually exists and operates, not how it would be in some libertopia. The cop who plants a bag of coke in your car isn't going to give a shit that you don't think simple posession should get you a prison sentence.
Quote from: Telarus on May 12, 2011, 02:52:18 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 02:44:38 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:41:57 AM
Quote from: Telarus on May 12, 2011, 02:36:46 AM
1) THE system is actually 2 systems. 1 for those with fame/money (we only see the fame one, see example), and one for those without.
example: Willie Nelson got out of possession charges earlier this year by singing the judge's favorite song to him. See also, Paris Hilton.
2) DP, you really REALLY need to read this article on how the FBI and the local police stalked and entrapped the (ex)lead singer for ¡Tchkung! (the noise/arachinst band from a few years back), Rick Wilson. This is standard operating procedure, for the reasons the LEOs at the end of the article are quoted giving.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-long-con/Content?oid=7989613
You're talking about privileged law, something I'm completely against. Tell me how you'd remove it and I'll back it.
2) DP, you really REALLY need to read this article on how the FBI and the local police stalked and entrapped the (ex)lead singer for ¡Tchkung! (the noise/arachinst band from a few years back), Rick Wilson. This is standard operating procedure, for the reasons the LEOs at the end of the article are quoted giving.
There have always been bad cops, going back over the entirety of civilization. We created Internal Affairs to help with this. I'm not convinced it will ever be a perfect system either.
You didn't read the article. That was an entire corrupt department, backed by an entire corrupt system.
"I didn't realize I was playing a chess game for my life with the FBI. They were playing chess, and I was off finger-painting in the corner."
For over 2 years.
"The defense lawyers will be bewildered by what they find in the discovery process—all the paperwork and evidence and audio and video surveillance accumulated by the two-year investigation that involved the FBI, SPD, SWAT teams, and federal firearms and immigration and customs agents. One defendant's discovery request turned up nearly 2,000 pages of documentation and over 100 CDs and DVDs, and even that defendant's attorney had to file extra requests because he said there were big gaps of time missing."
completely indefinsable. Corrupt police should be put in a cage with others who would take rights, property or life from someone else. Again, I find myself a bit out of my element actually on the side of law enforcement ITT, but I truly was attempting to hear alternatives that will still remove violent and destructive people from the streets with as little damage to the rest of us as possible. I've heard none of that.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 02:55:32 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.
I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison. I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:01:58 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 02:55:32 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.
I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison. I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.
Charged with =/= tried to do.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:56:06 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 12, 2011, 02:49:47 AM
How about a system where we exploit prisoners as if they are slave labor, we have harsh punishments, and we just shrug our shoulders that being arrested is a "choice"?
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Is being black a choice? How about being poor?
assumes being black or poor disqualifies someone from making a choice to break a law written by elected officials.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:03:06 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:56:06 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 12, 2011, 02:49:47 AM
How about a system where we exploit prisoners as if they are slave labor, we have harsh punishments, and we just shrug our shoulders that being arrested is a "choice"?
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Is being black a choice? How about being poor?
assumes being black or poor disqualifies someone from making a choice to break a law written by elected officials.
No it doesn't.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:56:06 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 12, 2011, 02:49:47 AM
How about a system where we exploit prisoners as if they are slave labor, we have harsh punishments, and we just shrug our shoulders that being arrested is a "choice"?
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Is being black a choice? How about being poor?
I don't think he understands that argument.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:03:06 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:56:06 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 12, 2011, 02:49:47 AM
How about a system where we exploit prisoners as if they are slave labor, we have harsh punishments, and we just shrug our shoulders that being arrested is a "choice"?
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Is being black a choice? How about being poor?
assumes being black or poor disqualifies someone from making a choice to break a law written by elected officials.
see
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:02:44 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:01:58 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 02:55:32 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.
I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison. I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.
Charged with =/= tried to do.
ok, yeah. As ECH mentioned, a cop planting something on you means you can get pretty fucked and railroaded. I see no long term solution for this short of screening potential cops for this sort of behavior. Good luck with that.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:01:58 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 02:55:32 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.
I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison. I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.
Uh, he didn't choose take drugs in. He got his ass hauled in for being drunk and happened to have drugs on him. Being an unwilling participant in the smuggling doesn't actually matter to the system.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:15:56 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:54:22 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.
:cn:
If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked. I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.
while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.
So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.
I believe I'm starting to really understand now. It's terrifying btw.
The others are being nice, There is no evidence of being nice in my DNA, so, you're a fucking idiot. If I were so inclined I could tell you a story about my innocent son who spent roughly $80,000 on his defense ans will be off probation in a year.
Go fuck yourself.
On the national scale, it is an Industry, and turning people into criminals generates profit.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 03:07:41 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:01:58 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 02:55:32 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.
I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison. I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.
Uh, he didn't choose take drugs in. He got his ass hauled in for being drunk and happened to have drugs on him. Being an unwilling participant in the smuggling doesn't actually matter to the system.
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 12, 2011, 03:05:55 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:56:06 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 12, 2011, 02:49:47 AM
How about a system where we exploit prisoners as if they are slave labor, we have harsh punishments, and we just shrug our shoulders that being arrested is a "choice"?
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Is being black a choice? How about being poor?
I don't think he understands that argument.
Ok, then it assumes at the least that only black or poor people get a bad defense. The job of a Public Defender is a calling that is arguably one of the most demanding jobs in this country. Of the 3 I've ever met, they've been a few of the most passionate people I've had the honor to know. They really were trying their best to help as many people as possible. Of course, this wont always be the case in every part of the country.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 03:07:41 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:01:58 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 02:55:32 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.
I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison. I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.
Uh, he didn't choose take drugs in. He got his ass hauled in for being drunk and happened to have drugs on him. Being an unwilling participant in the smuggling doesn't actually matter to the system.
story needs more context. where was he drunk? why didn't he leave his drugs at home?
If you're going to be drunk and do drugs, IMO you should be home or really close to home and drawing as little attention to yourself as possible.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:12:33 AM
Ok, then it assumes at the least that only black or poor people get a bad defense.
No. It doesn't. It assumes that black or poor people are disproportionately targeted by police, oft times unfairly. Welcome to the South Side, if the cops come, run. Doesn't matter if you didn't do anything, they don't care.
Quote from: Telarus on May 12, 2011, 03:11:04 AM
On the national scale, it is an Industry, and turning people into criminals generates profit.
and that IS terrifying. Intentionally criminalizing and putting in jail people is a dark road. Not at all what I'm defending.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 03:08:52 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:15:56 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:54:22 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.
:cn:
If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked. I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.
while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.
So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.
I believe I'm starting to really understand now. It's terrifying btw.
The others are being nice, There is no evidence of being nice in my DNA, so, you're a fucking idiot. If I were so inclined I could tell you a story about my innocent son who spent roughly $80,000 on his defense ans will be off probation in a year.
Go fuck yourself.
you first.
I would like to hear your story, even if you are being a dick.
I don't think so, I prefer to just be a dick. It sure as hell beats being a blind idealist.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:15:35 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:12:33 AM
Ok, then it assumes at the least that only black or poor people get a bad defense.
No. It doesn't. It assumes that black or poor people are disproportionately targeted by police, oft times unfairly. Welcome to the South Side, if the cops come, run. Doesn't matter if you didn't do anything, they don't care.
I have a response to this, but I think I've had too much beer to say it coherently. My first reaction is that you're correct, except that there are black and poor police as well now, so you would think that this would go away with time. Except that there will always be people who commit crimes against other people.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 03:33:15 AM
I don't think so, I prefer to just be a dick. It sure as hell beats being a blind idealist.
I'd say arguing that the system is so broken it has to be scrapped is far more idealistic than accepting it for its' flaws and acknowledging it's advances since the dawn of human law.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:39:11 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 03:33:15 AM
I don't think so, I prefer to just be a dick. It sure as hell beats being a blind idealist.
I'd say arguing that the system is so broken it has to be scrapped is far more idealistic than accepting it for its' flaws and acknowledging it's advances since the dawn of human law.
One day I hope you have first hand experience of the system. In fact I will even pray for it.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:37:52 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:15:35 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:12:33 AM
Ok, then it assumes at the least that only black or poor people get a bad defense.
No. It doesn't. It assumes that black or poor people are disproportionately targeted by police, oft times unfairly. Welcome to the South Side, if the cops come, run. Doesn't matter if you didn't do anything, they don't care.
I have a response to this, but I think I've had too much beer to say it coherently. My first reaction is that you're correct, except that there are black and poor police as well now, so you would think that this would go away with time. Except that there will always be people who commit crimes against other people.
And those with the power will become the badge, rather than being the black person, or the poor person. They are the police officer. Ever been to the real slums and ghettos? Ever been during a police raid?
***WARNING***CUNT MODE***
LA LA LA LA LA LA LA
What? I know god damned well I am one of the few here with personal experience in a capitol murder trial with a death penalty sentence, yet I was ignored by DP.
So..... yeah....
LA LA LA LA LA LA LA
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:24:32 AM
I assert that no action any person can take can ever be considered to be random.
We're the only random macroscopic events in the universe, at an individual level. Please retake your soc classes, as you have entirely missed the point.
Quote from: Khara on May 12, 2011, 03:45:42 AM
***WARNING***CUNT MODE***
LA LA LA LA LA LA LA
What? I know god damned well I am one of the few here with personal experience in a capitol murder trial with a death penalty sentence, yet I was ignored by DP.
So..... yeah....
LA LA LA LA LA LA LA
And I've probably gotten out of more sticky situations with the law than he's ever read about in the local rag, but hey, what do I know?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:37:52 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:15:35 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:12:33 AM
Ok, then it assumes at the least that only black or poor people get a bad defense.
No. It doesn't. It assumes that black or poor people are disproportionately targeted by police, oft times unfairly. Welcome to the South Side, if the cops come, run. Doesn't matter if you didn't do anything, they don't care.
I have a response to this, but I think I've had too much beer to say it coherently. My first reaction is that you're correct, except that there are black and poor police as well now, so you would think that this would go away with time. Except that there will always be people who commit crimes against other people.
Guess which kind of cops are hardest on Blacks? :lulz:
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 03:41:17 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:39:11 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 03:33:15 AM
I don't think so, I prefer to just be a dick. It sure as hell beats being a blind idealist.
I'd say arguing that the system is so broken it has to be scrapped is far more idealistic than accepting it for its' flaws and acknowledging it's advances since the dawn of human law.
One day I hope you have first hand experience of the system. In fact I will even pray for it.
I'm nicer to police that I am to any other people on the planet. I also don't put myself in situations that could possibly result in loosing my rights. I don't LIKE them, but I realize it's in my best interest to do so. It's done me pretty well so far.
If for some reason something does ever happen, I will be devouring books about it as fast as I can put them down and yes, I will pay a lawyer to spend more than 5 hours a day thinking about how to get me out of it. I'll consider it money well spent.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:06:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:02:44 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:01:58 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 02:55:32 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.
I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison. I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.
Charged with =/= tried to do.
ok, yeah. As ECH mentioned, a cop planting something on you means you can get pretty fucked and railroaded. I see no long term solution for this short of screening potential cops for this sort of behavior. Good luck with that.
There's no need for a long-term "solution", as you call it, because as far as the people who oversee the system are concerned
the system works perfectly. And the fact that nobody has offered you an example of a preferable codified alternative is a pretty poor reason for being in favor of an entrenched system that actively seeks to punish and extract labor from people rather than educating them and rehabilitating them. In essence, your argument is "fuck if I care how unjust it all is, I'm just glad that guy who robbed the convenience store down the street got what he deserved in the form of a 40-year slavery sentence!"
Quote from: Khara on May 12, 2011, 03:45:42 AM
***WARNING***CUNT MODE***
LA LA LA LA LA LA LA
What? I know god damned well I am one of the few here with personal experience in a capitol murder trial with a death penalty sentence, yet I was ignored by DP.
So..... yeah....
LA LA LA LA LA LA LA
there were a lot of posts. I wasn't ignoring you. this place swarms like sharks when there's blood in the water. I'm actually going to crash, but I'll reply in the morning.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:54:17 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 02:51:46 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:49:05 AM
Quote from: Telarus on May 12, 2011, 02:44:05 AM
That tells me you didn't read the fucking article. The under-cover agent who entrapped people GOT A FUCKING MEDAL FOR IT.
"There'll always be some bad cops", my ASS.
reading now, but the subtext of the title disqualifies it from this discussion as I was and am still talking about crimes against person and property and those who commit those crimes.
reading anyway.
Yes, because the only people in prison are those who committed crimes against person or property? :? How do you even begin to justify your contribution to this thread?
I earlier qualified by dismissing drug related offenses, and if I didn't include nonviolent offenses then it was an oversight. You'll find me very libertarian on drug laws and their enforcement. "Victimless Crimes" are not, in my opinion, crimes at all.
Then what is the relevance of your opinion of the justice and prison system to this thread?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:18:01 AM
Quote from: Telarus on May 12, 2011, 03:11:04 AM
On the national scale, it is an Industry, and turning people into criminals generates profit.
and that IS terrifying. Intentionally criminalizing and putting in jail people is a dark road. Not at all what I'm defending.
it is EXACTLY what you are defending when you defend the practices that exist solely to enable it and serve no other useful function to society at large.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:27:45 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 02:18:00 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:15:56 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:54:22 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.
:cn:
If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked. I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.
while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.
So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.
I believe I'm starting to really understand now. It's terrifying btw.
Oh, yeah, that stuff happens in smudgy, unfurnished countries...But not here. Ho ho!
jebus fuck, I never said it DIDN'T HAPPEN. Sometimes, I think you argue just to argue.
What, you think the "wrong people" don't get railroaded in countries where the melanin in your skin puts you in the minority?
name me a country that does it better for crimes against person or property.
Canada, Denmark, Holland, Germany...Oh, wait. You only wanted one.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:37:52 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:15:35 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:12:33 AM
Ok, then it assumes at the least that only black or poor people get a bad defense.
No. It doesn't. It assumes that black or poor people are disproportionately targeted by police, oft times unfairly. Welcome to the South Side, if the cops come, run. Doesn't matter if you didn't do anything, they don't care.
I have a response to this, but I think I've had too much beer to say it coherently. My first reaction is that you're correct, except that there are black and poor police as well now, so you would think that this would go away with time. Except that there will always be people who commit crimes against other people.
You just don't WANT to get it. The black cops and the poor cops are 100x times harder on black and poor people. :lulz:
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:22:04 AM
The only difference between here and a place like Mexico is that in the good old US of A, you need to add an extra zero or three to the bribe amount.
Now stop flapping your gums as though you even have the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about, please. You're obviously intent on ignoring the REALITY of our legal system in favor of some Houghton-Mifflin 6th grade civics class textbook.
There's no showing an objectivist anything, ECH. They have to learn the hard way.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 03:50:12 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:06:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:02:44 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:01:58 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 02:55:32 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.
I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison. I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.
Charged with =/= tried to do.
ok, yeah. As ECH mentioned, a cop planting something on you means you can get pretty fucked and railroaded. I see no long term solution for this short of screening potential cops for this sort of behavior. Good luck with that.
There's no need for a long-term "solution", as you call it, because as far as the people who oversee the system are concerned the system works perfectly. And the fact that nobody has offered you an example of a preferable codified alternative is a pretty poor reason for being in favor of an entrenched system that actively seeks to punish and extract labor from people rather than educating them and rehabilitating them. In essence, your argument is "fuck if I care how unjust it all is, I'm just glad that guy who robbed the convenience store down the street got what he deserved in the form of a 40-year slavery sentence!"
unfair argument. I have clearly said that privatized prisons and ones that use labor for private profit are abhorrent. I've also said that educating them is the best possible solution, excepting that not everyone can be rehabilitated.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:53:58 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 03:50:12 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:06:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:02:44 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:01:58 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 02:55:32 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.
I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison. I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.
Charged with =/= tried to do.
ok, yeah. As ECH mentioned, a cop planting something on you means you can get pretty fucked and railroaded. I see no long term solution for this short of screening potential cops for this sort of behavior. Good luck with that.
There's no need for a long-term "solution", as you call it, because as far as the people who oversee the system are concerned the system works perfectly. And the fact that nobody has offered you an example of a preferable codified alternative is a pretty poor reason for being in favor of an entrenched system that actively seeks to punish and extract labor from people rather than educating them and rehabilitating them. In essence, your argument is "fuck if I care how unjust it all is, I'm just glad that guy who robbed the convenience store down the street got what he deserved in the form of a 40-year slavery sentence!"
unfair argument. I have clearly said that privatized prisons and ones that use labor for private profit are abhorrent. I've also said that educating them is the best possible solution, excepting that not everyone can be rehabilitated.
Bullshit.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:54:44 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:53:58 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 03:50:12 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:06:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:02:44 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:01:58 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 02:55:32 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.
I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison. I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.
Charged with =/= tried to do.
ok, yeah. As ECH mentioned, a cop planting something on you means you can get pretty fucked and railroaded. I see no long term solution for this short of screening potential cops for this sort of behavior. Good luck with that.
There's no need for a long-term "solution", as you call it, because as far as the people who oversee the system are concerned the system works perfectly. And the fact that nobody has offered you an example of a preferable codified alternative is a pretty poor reason for being in favor of an entrenched system that actively seeks to punish and extract labor from people rather than educating them and rehabilitating them. In essence, your argument is "fuck if I care how unjust it all is, I'm just glad that guy who robbed the convenience store down the street got what he deserved in the form of a 40-year slavery sentence!"
unfair argument. I have clearly said that privatized prisons and ones that use labor for private profit are abhorrent. I've also said that educating them is the best possible solution, excepting that not everyone can be rehabilitated.
Bullshit.
what, all of it?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:53:58 AMI have clearly said that privatized prisons and ones that use labor for private profit are abhorrent.
:lulz: Well, that's only ALL OF THEM.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 03:56:43 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:53:58 AMI have clearly said that privatized prisons and ones that use labor for private profit are abhorrent.
:lulz: Well, that's only ALL OF THEM.
link?
I'm crashing out of this thread and consciousness for the night. It's clear I have the wrongest of the wrong values as far as you fuckers are concerned. I'll take that into serious consideration. Thanks for the opposing viewpoints.
Also, I quite clearly remember you making a post about how you were totally OK with using those convicts as labor so they were giving something back.
But, you know, keep on applying your high-minded ideals to your defense of a system that is intentionally set up to be inherently racist (and to a slightly lesser degree classist) where you can be arbitrarily convicted of a crime and sentenced to the gulag the labor camps prison for most of your life over, as you call it, "crimes against people and property".
Because, you know, that homeless drug addict who got a 3rd strike for a larceny conviction totally deserves to rot away in prison as slave labor for the rest of his life, you know, because of the choice he made.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:55:38 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:54:44 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:53:58 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 03:50:12 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:06:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:02:44 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:01:58 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 02:55:32 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.
I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison. I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.
Charged with =/= tried to do.
ok, yeah. As ECH mentioned, a cop planting something on you means you can get pretty fucked and railroaded. I see no long term solution for this short of screening potential cops for this sort of behavior. Good luck with that.
There's no need for a long-term "solution", as you call it, because as far as the people who oversee the system are concerned the system works perfectly. And the fact that nobody has offered you an example of a preferable codified alternative is a pretty poor reason for being in favor of an entrenched system that actively seeks to punish and extract labor from people rather than educating them and rehabilitating them. In essence, your argument is "fuck if I care how unjust it all is, I'm just glad that guy who robbed the convenience store down the street got what he deserved in the form of a 40-year slavery sentence!"
unfair argument. I have clearly said that privatized prisons and ones that use labor for private profit are abhorrent. I've also said that educating them is the best possible solution, excepting that not everyone can be rehabilitated.
Bullshit.
what, all of it?
What, are we deciding that facts can't be used in arguments now? So you say "privatized prisons are bad". Great. You don't "condone enforced slavery." We're on the same page. "Victimless crimes shouldn't be crimes." Couldn't agree more. thing is.. they are all part of the system. What exactly are you even arguing anymore?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:57:46 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 03:56:43 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:53:58 AMI have clearly said that privatized prisons and ones that use labor for private profit are abhorrent.
:lulz: Well, that's only ALL OF THEM.
link?
In 36 states, at least: http://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/2008/08/30/stunning-statistics-on-prison-labour/
He agrees with everything we're saying except the part where the root cause of the problems is something to be concerned about. :lulz:
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 04:01:21 AM
Also, I quite clearly remember you making a post about how you were totally OK with using those convicts as labor so they were giving something back.
But, you know, keep on applying your high-minded ideals to your defense of a system that is intentionally set up to be inherently racist (and to a slightly lesser degree classist) where you can be arbitrarily convicted of a crime and sentenced to the gulag the labor camps prison for most of your life over, as you call it, "crimes against people and property".
Because, you know, that homeless drug addict who got a 3rd strike for a larceny conviction totally deserves to rot away in prison as slave labor for the rest of his life, you know, because of the choice he made.
A great deal classist, actually. Po'buckers are in just as much doodoo as Blacks, if they get snagged by the system. Granted, they are marginally less likely to get arrested in the first place.
It's just another yahoo arguing a subject he knows nearly nothing about.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 03:52:49 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:27:45 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 02:18:00 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:15:56 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:54:22 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.
I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"
If that sounds dickish, it's not intended. I really am learning from you guys. I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.
Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.
:cn:
If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked. I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.
while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.
So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.
I believe I'm starting to really understand now. It's terrifying btw.
Oh, yeah, that stuff happens in smudgy, unfurnished countries...But not here. Ho ho!
jebus fuck, I never said it DIDN'T HAPPEN. Sometimes, I think you argue just to argue.
What, you think the "wrong people" don't get railroaded in countries where the melanin in your skin puts you in the minority?
name me a country that does it better for crimes against person or property.
Canada, Denmark, Holland, Germany...Oh, wait. You only wanted one.
After these last elections it seems we maybe trying desperately hard to fix that one.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 04:03:08 AM
He agrees with everything we're saying except the part where the root cause of the problems is something to be concerned about. :lulz:
I know, it's almost surreal, except, ya know, I remember the argument we had when he first showed up. :lulz:
I think DP needs to define "choice."
...what?
*looks innocent*
...I'm just not feeling it in this thread, hopping onto DP's tailfeathers and giving him the spanking I really wanted to about 5 pages back...you guys did a fine enough job without me.
I'll instead return to the OP:
...SO! Yet AGAIN, the legislature (which we all know is in the THRALL of an upsurge of right-wingasms, one right after another). I just want to have the group of assholes who decided to make this nifty little law repeat after me,
ALLAH HU AKBAR!
ALLAH HU AKBAR!
They might as well. They've effectively reduced themselves into that which they proclaim to hate--freedom raping jihadists. They've claimed jihad against the rights of any human (because that's what it's come down to, really, in this post-9-11 fervor of civil rights plundering), as we have less and less "fair" trials, more and more legislation of "can't" rather than "permit." THE POWER OF NO is no stronger than in a prison.
So those who think that being allowed ANY reading material at all (and I've restated and restated this bullshit too many times to count since July of '04) is a nicety, and that being in JAIL or PRISON was THEIR choice and so they should accept they are being punished need to think fucking hard about a couple of things. Namely:
**what does a prisoner do with themselves all day if they have nothing with which to occupy their minds?
**if a mind that is surrounded with other idle minds is put in frustration in the midst of similar minds, what happens?
**if the BIBLE is all there is to read, how does this reintegrate a person who may soon be released into society, prepare him or her for what's to come in the days, weeks, months ahead?
**why does it follow that treating prisoners like animals with no intelligence make any sense to anyone, except those that would exploit and use them as slave labor and concentration camp dwellers?
**how is it that almost every other "Westernized" society has understood the above as a plan to follow logically for eventual rehabilitation, but the US, in all its "infinite wisdom" (read: arrogant bastardry) still has not?
In an age where the US is coming to the end of its hegemony, you'd think the fuckups in Congress everywhere (stateside, Federal, etc.), would realize this is an untapped workforce that would work BETTER if it were well-fed and well-trained. Monkeylabor with a diseased, malnourished chain gang/factory worker/slave trade will only get you so far. It's rather pathetic, this short-sightedness in the name of what? "Safety"...? "Freedom"...? Nah.
It's the very attitude that I used to display and that which poor DP is displaying here: a fundamental lack of understanding of the root of the thing--until it happened to me. Yeah until it happens to you, you just don't KNOW.... Our justice system may have a LOT going for it, but its corruption is absolute in too many places to count, and those places need strong people to pull those roots and cauterize.
Do we see this happening?
I don't.
Fucking rah, Jenne! :mittens:
UPSHOT: anyone who thinks this is all "fine" and being in prison is "a choice"...they just haven't made it THERE yet.
Yet.
Saying that being incarcerated is a choice has terrible implications. For one thing, it assumes the infallibility of the system - that no one is sent to prison by mistake or receives an unfair trial.
Or, at the very least it assumes that such mistakes have to be accepted as "inevitable" glitches in the system.
It's one thing wax philosophical about causality and choice, but it's another thing to use such abstract concepts to justify something as real and heartbreaking about a life ruined by an unfair and unjust system.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:12:33 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 03:07:41 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:01:58 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 12, 2011, 02:55:32 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.
I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison. I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.
Uh, he didn't choose take drugs in. He got his ass hauled in for being drunk and happened to have drugs on him. Being an unwilling participant in the smuggling doesn't actually matter to the system.
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 12, 2011, 03:05:55 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:56:06 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:52:01 AM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 12, 2011, 02:49:47 AM
How about a system where we exploit prisoners as if they are slave labor, we have harsh punishments, and we just shrug our shoulders that being arrested is a "choice"?
dishonest argument. I said committing a crime is a choice.
Is being black a choice? How about being poor?
I don't think he understands that argument.
Ok, then it assumes at the least that only black or poor people get a bad defense. The job of a Public Defender is def insably a calling that is arguably one of the most demanding jobs in this country. Of the 3 I've ever met, they've been a few of the most passionate people I've had the honor to know. They really were trying their best to help as many people as possible. Of course, this wont always be the case in every part of the country.
Passionate about telling people to just plead guilty whether they are or not, maybe.
The function of a public defender is to shuffle people through the system.
Quote from: Jenne on May 12, 2011, 04:07:13 AM
I think DP needs to define "choice."
...what?
*looks innocent*
...I'm just not feeling it in this thread, hopping onto DP's tailfeathers and giving him the spanking I really wanted to about 5 pages back...you guys did a fine enough job without me.
I'll instead return to the OP:
...SO! Yet AGAIN, the legislature (which we all know is in the THRALL of an upsurge of right-wingasms, one right after another). I just want to have the group of assholes who decided to make this nifty little law repeat after me,
ALLAH HU AKBAR!
ALLAH HU AKBAR!
They might as well. They've effectively reduced themselves into that which they proclaim to hate--freedom raping jihadists. They've claimed jihad against the rights of any human (because that's what it's come down to, really, in this post-9-11 fervor of civil rights plundering), as we have less and less "fair" trials, more and more legislation of "can't" rather than "permit." THE POWER OF NO is no stronger than in a prison.
So those who think that being allowed ANY reading material at all (and I've restated and restated this bullshit too many times to count since July of '04) is a nicety, and that being in JAIL or PRISON was THEIR choice and so they should accept they are being punished need to think fucking hard about a couple of things. Namely:
**what does a prisoner do with themselves all day if they have nothing with which to occupy their minds?
**if a mind that is surrounded with other idle minds is put in frustration in the midst of similar minds, what happens?
**if the BIBLE is all there is to read, how does this reintegrate a person who may soon be released into society, prepare him or her for what's to come in the days, weeks, months ahead?
**why does it follow that treating prisoners like animals with no intelligence make any sense to anyone, except those that would exploit and use them as slave labor and concentration camp dwellers?
**how is it that almost every other "Westernized" society has understood the above as a plan to follow logically for eventual rehabilitation, but the US, in all its "infinite wisdom" (read: arrogant bastardry) still has not?
In an age where the US is coming to the end of its hegemony, you'd think the fuckups in Congress everywhere (stateside, Federal, etc.), would realize this is an untapped workforce that would work BETTER if it were well-fed and well-trained. Monkeylabor with a diseased, malnourished chain gang/factory worker/slave trade will only get you so far. It's rather pathetic, this short-sightedness in the name of what? "Safety"...? "Freedom"...? Nah.
It's the very attitude that I used to display and that which poor DP is displaying here: a fundamental lack of understanding of the root of the thing--until it happened to me. Yeah until it happens to you, you just don't KNOW.... Our justice system may have a LOT going for it, but its corruption is absolute in too many places to count, and those places need strong people to pull those roots and cauterize.
Do we see this happening?
I don't.
It's like Calvinism.
A few people declare themselves "The Elect" and fuck over everybody else, saying they "earned" it somehow.
Disco Pickle's argument is equally applicable to a missile strike that kills a shitload of civilians and one terrorist.
Actually, Disco Pickle's argument is equally applicable to an ICBM strike.
*500 megacorpses*
"Nothing's random, Why where they standing there, anyway?"
*Some of them are wearing military fatigues*
"See? The system works."
Quote from: Jenne on May 12, 2011, 04:12:32 AM
UPSHOT: anyone who thinks this is all "fine" and being in prison is "a choice"...they just haven't made it THERE yet.
Yet.
Quote from: Nast on May 12, 2011, 04:28:55 AM
Saying that being incarcerated is a choice has terrible implications. For one thing, it assumes the infallibility of the system - that no one is sent to prison by mistake or receives an unfair trial.
Or, at the very least it assumes that such mistakes have to be accepted as "inevitable" glitches in the system.
It's one thing wax philosophical about causality and choice, but it's another thing to use such abstract concepts to justify something as real and heartbreaking about a life ruined by an unfair and unjust system.
never, not even once did I ever even come close to suggesting that being incarcerated was a choice.
My shitty mood this morning says just kill them all. Soon everyone will be dead and the world will be a better place without all these problematic humans about.
Non-shitty mood says let them have books and newspapers. Either that or make sure everyone is in a padded cell because with nothing to keep their minds active they'll end up crazy.
As to who ends up in prison: If you're there you have damn bad luck, simple as that. Whether innocent or guilty, the fact someone singled you out is some of the shittiest luck in the world. The system needs a change but damned if I know how.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:22:04 AM
The only difference between here and a place like Mexico is that in the good old US of A, you need to add an extra zero or three to the bribe amount.
I pretty much said the exact same thing to the Thai guy I was working with the other night, when we were discussing the FIFA World Cup corruption on the news.
I'm not adverse to a little corruption (hell, I seriously considered a job offer in Taiwan, which was technically illegal but because of bribes I could safely do for a few years without hassle. Taiwan runs on bribery as a
way of life) but it has to be affordable. The amazing thing about advanced post-industrial nations is how they have raised the barrier for low level corruption, while turning high level corruption into a form of big business. Whereas I believe in corruption for the
masses. Every worker slipping every low paid cop a few bills to avoid a parking ticket!
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 12:55:23 PM
Quote from: Jenne on May 12, 2011, 04:12:32 AM
UPSHOT: anyone who thinks this is all "fine" and being in prison is "a choice"...they just haven't made it THERE yet.
Yet.
Quote from: Nast on May 12, 2011, 04:28:55 AM
Saying that being incarcerated is a choice has terrible implications. For one thing, it assumes the infallibility of the system - that no one is sent to prison by mistake or receives an unfair trial.
Or, at the very least it assumes that such mistakes have to be accepted as "inevitable" glitches in the system.
It's one thing wax philosophical about causality and choice, but it's another thing to use such abstract concepts to justify something as real and heartbreaking about a life ruined by an unfair and unjust system.
never, not even once did I ever even come close to suggesting that being incarcerated was a choice.
Ahem.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:06:01 AM
I have no issues with putting people sentenced to long term time to work that benefits those of us who make the decision to not break laws.
It is a decision.
:169:
As an aside, combining this idea with the "no random actions" idea brings us very close to THE SECRET™. Which makes me giggle.
"Politicization of crime" made me chuckle, as well.
Who writes the laws, again?
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 01:31:01 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 12:55:23 PM
Quote from: Jenne on May 12, 2011, 04:12:32 AM
UPSHOT: anyone who thinks this is all "fine" and being in prison is "a choice"...they just haven't made it THERE yet.
Yet.
Quote from: Nast on May 12, 2011, 04:28:55 AM
Saying that being incarcerated is a choice has terrible implications. For one thing, it assumes the infallibility of the system - that no one is sent to prison by mistake or receives an unfair trial.
Or, at the very least it assumes that such mistakes have to be accepted as "inevitable" glitches in the system.
It's one thing wax philosophical about causality and choice, but it's another thing to use such abstract concepts to justify something as real and heartbreaking about a life ruined by an unfair and unjust system.
never, not even once did I ever even come close to suggesting that being incarcerated was a choice.
Ahem.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:06:01 AM
I have no issues with putting people sentenced to long term time to work that benefits those of us who make the decision to not break laws.
It is a decision.
:169:
As an aside, combining this idea with the "no random actions" idea brings us very close to THE SECRET™. Which makes me giggle.
breaking a law is a choice. whether you spend time in jail for it is not.
You logic quoted above clearly shows that you feel if someone is in jail, they made a choice to break the law.
Combine this with your "no random actions", and you draw a straight line from "choose crime" to "incarcerated".
Ergo, your position = if you are incarcerated, you made that choice.
They're your words. Maybe you should be better about choosing them.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 01:39:44 PM
You logic quoted above clearly shows that you feel if someone is in jail, they made a choice to break the law.
Combine this with your "no random actions", and you draw a straight line from "choose crime" to "incarcerated".
Ergo, your position = if you are incarcerated, you made that choice.
They're your words. Maybe you should be better about choosing them.
not everyone in jail should be there, and increasingly incarcerating people for non-violent offenses serves no value to society. I thought I was clear about that early on.
And yet you have no problem with them being treated as slave labor. Interesting.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 01:39:44 PM
You logic quoted above clearly shows that you feel if someone is in jail, they made a choice to break the law.
Combine this with your "no random actions", and you draw a straight line from "choose crime" to "incarcerated".
Ergo, your position = if you are incarcerated, you made that choice.
They're your words. Maybe you should be better about choosing them.
not everyone in jail should be there, and increasingly incarcerating people for non-violent offenses serves no value to society. I thought I was clear about that early on.
No, that was not at all clear. Even so, you still sound like you're saying "well, so long as their in prison, they might as well be useful". And if you are, your statement applies just as much to the people currently in prison unfairly and/or on stupid charges as it does to murders and rapists. The system is full of drug offenders and non-violent criminals, as well as innocent people. The bulk of your slave labor comes from people who are not "Criminals" under your definition. And you keep purporting to be okay with this.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 01:47:40 PM
And yet you have no problem with them being treated as slave labor. Interesting.
I'm for educating first and foremost. A lot of prisoners are paid for work though admittedly not very much. The alternative to working is to have them do nothing, and it's well established that an idle prison population is far more dangerous and does nothing in the way of helping rehabilitate.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:21:40 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 01:47:40 PM
And yet you have no problem with them being treated as slave labor. Interesting.
I'm for educating first and foremost. A lot of prisoners are paid for work though admittedly not very much. The alternative to working is to have them do nothing, and it's well established that an idle prison population is far more dangerous and does nothing in the way of helping rehabilitate.
This is correct. But, you have to be careful how you see "occupation" vs. labor that exploits a malnourished and diseased set of people that society is willing to "throw away"...simply because they are being punished.
Rehabilitation means they are being prepared for society or at least learning skills that will make reintegration successful. That's NOT the objective for most of the employment on any given prison grounds in the US. Instead, it's another form of subjugation and sometimes torture. At times, in fact, probably in MOST scenarios, the prospect of work is that much better than isolation or idleness. But not always, and chain gangs and the like are nothing short of slavery in most of the conditions that the inmates are under when they are made to work in them.
Actually, one would hope that privitization of prisons would actually work more like privitization of hospitals--but in fact it works in reverse. Care is not better, but rather worse due to lack of transparency and a "nod/wink" style of those that could control what goes on behind locked steel doors and bars of iron.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:24:32 AMI assert that no action any person can take can ever be considered to be random. Fuck, not even a computer program has been written that can be considered to produce a result that is truly random. It's all probability.
This is pedantry. I suggest you drop that line of thought.
Randomness does exist.
Both "randomness for all intents and purposes", as well as "true randomness". And they're more often the very same thing than you apparently realize. But who even fucking needs "true randomness" anyway. The distinction doesn't belong in a discussion like this.
Asimov's
Foundation series is a work of fiction, impossible fiction, not prophecy :lulz: He's excused though, back when he wrote it they didn't have computers nor the proper mathematical foundations, for all they knew, it might be theoretically possible.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 02:11:04 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 01:39:44 PM
You logic quoted above clearly shows that you feel if someone is in jail, they made a choice to break the law.
Combine this with your "no random actions", and you draw a straight line from "choose crime" to "incarcerated".
Ergo, your position = if you are incarcerated, you made that choice.
They're your words. Maybe you should be better about choosing them.
not everyone in jail should be there, and increasingly incarcerating people for non-violent offenses serves no value to society. I thought I was clear about that early on.
No, that was not at all clear. Even so, you still sound like you're saying "well, so long as their in prison, they might as well be useful". And if you are, your statement applies just as much to the people currently in prison unfairly and/or on stupid charges as it does to murders and rapists. The system is full of drug offenders and non-violent criminals, as well as innocent people. The bulk of your slave labor comes from people who are not "Criminals" under your definition. And you keep purporting to be okay with this.
For a subject you seem to have so much passion for you should have some ideas on how we might help get those people out of the system without also releasing the ones who would just as soon put a bullet in you as look at you. I'd love to hear them. I'd start by getting rid of mandatory minimums for drug possession and disproportionate sentences for possession of crack vs powdered cocaine. It's the same god damn thing and targets minorities while being more lenient on the upper class white's who use powder rather than rock.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 12:55:23 PM
Quote from: Jenne on May 12, 2011, 04:12:32 AM
UPSHOT: anyone who thinks this is all "fine" and being in prison is "a choice"...they just haven't made it THERE yet.
Yet.
Quote from: Nast on May 12, 2011, 04:28:55 AM
Saying that being incarcerated is a choice has terrible implications. For one thing, it assumes the infallibility of the system - that no one is sent to prison by mistake or receives an unfair trial.
Or, at the very least it assumes that such mistakes have to be accepted as "inevitable" glitches in the system.
It's one thing wax philosophical about causality and choice, but it's another thing to use such abstract concepts to justify something as real and heartbreaking about a life ruined by an unfair and unjust system.
never, not even once did I ever even come close to suggesting that being incarcerated was a choice.
Actually, you said "It is a decision".
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:41:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 02:11:04 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 01:39:44 PM
You logic quoted above clearly shows that you feel if someone is in jail, they made a choice to break the law.
Combine this with your "no random actions", and you draw a straight line from "choose crime" to "incarcerated".
Ergo, your position = if you are incarcerated, you made that choice.
They're your words. Maybe you should be better about choosing them.
not everyone in jail should be there, and increasingly incarcerating people for non-violent offenses serves no value to society. I thought I was clear about that early on.
No, that was not at all clear. Even so, you still sound like you're saying "well, so long as their in prison, they might as well be useful". And if you are, your statement applies just as much to the people currently in prison unfairly and/or on stupid charges as it does to murders and rapists. The system is full of drug offenders and non-violent criminals, as well as innocent people. The bulk of your slave labor comes from people who are not "Criminals" under your definition. And you keep purporting to be okay with this.
For a subject you seem to have so much passion for you should have some ideas on how we might help get those people out of the system without also releasing the ones who would just as soon put a bullet in you as look at you. I'd love to hear them. I'd start by getting rid of mandatory minimums for drug possession and disproportionate sentences for possession of crack vs powdered cocaine. It's the same god damn thing and targets minorities while being more lenient on the upper class white's who use powder rather than rock.
There you go again, avoiding the issue by demanding alternatives. First of all, I've got bills to pay and papers to write, so I don't spend my time thinking about how to improve a busted system when I am in no position to act upon it. Second, your entire position is divorced from reality. Sure eliminating mandatory minimums and equalizing sentencing for rock vs. powder would be a decent place to start, but I hate to break it to you, but it's not happening in my lifetime. Why? Because equalizing sentencing is a pipe dream, and mandatory minimums have precedent. The way the legal system works, even if the laws are passed, it wont make a difference in the grand scheme of things. Crack will be punished more harshly than powder. There will be "recommended" minimum sentences. And nothing gets solved.
Quote from: Jenne on May 12, 2011, 04:07:13 AM**what does a prisoner do with themselves all day if they have nothing with which to occupy their minds?
**if a mind that is surrounded with other idle minds is put in frustration in the midst of similar minds, what happens?
Hey I think this is a great idea. We should put big screen TVs in prisons, showing
only the mindnumbing TV-junk that is sitcoms, celebrity gossip, reality TV and talent shows.
It's definitely a form of punishment, plus it keeps those dangerous criminal minds from idling, keeping them nicely pacified with the finest fluff America has to offer.
I'm only a littlebit kidding :)
Quote**how is it that almost every other "Westernized" society has understood the above as a plan to follow logically for eventual rehabilitation, but the US, in all its "infinite wisdom" (read: arrogant bastardry) still has not?
The US doesn't have any reintegration projects? Damn ...
Quote from: Cain on May 12, 2011, 01:05:03 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 02:22:04 AM
The only difference between here and a place like Mexico is that in the good old US of A, you need to add an extra zero or three to the bribe amount.
I pretty much said the exact same thing to the Thai guy I was working with the other night, when we were discussing the FIFA World Cup corruption on the news.
I'm not adverse to a little corruption (hell, I seriously considered a job offer in Taiwan, which was technically illegal but because of bribes I could safely do for a few years without hassle. Taiwan runs on bribery as a way of life) but it has to be affordable. The amazing thing about advanced post-industrial nations is how they have raised the barrier for low level corruption, while turning high level corruption into a form of big business. Whereas I believe in corruption for the masses. Every worker slipping every low paid cop a few bills to avoid a parking ticket!
It's true. As far as I understand, in a lot of countries, it's basically the grease of society.
Our grease of society, here, as far as I understand, is based on always giving a littlebit more, if you can spare it. Also nice, but it's not very universal/popular and less powerful, anyway.
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2011, 03:03:37 PM
The US doesn't have any reintegration projects? Damn ...
Yeah. As you're walking out the gate, the guards says, "See you real soon".
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:41:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 02:11:04 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 01:39:44 PM
You logic quoted above clearly shows that you feel if someone is in jail, they made a choice to break the law.
Combine this with your "no random actions", and you draw a straight line from "choose crime" to "incarcerated".
Ergo, your position = if you are incarcerated, you made that choice.
They're your words. Maybe you should be better about choosing them.
not everyone in jail should be there, and increasingly incarcerating people for non-violent offenses serves no value to society. I thought I was clear about that early on.
No, that was not at all clear. Even so, you still sound like you're saying "well, so long as their in prison, they might as well be useful". And if you are, your statement applies just as much to the people currently in prison unfairly and/or on stupid charges as it does to murders and rapists. The system is full of drug offenders and non-violent criminals, as well as innocent people. The bulk of your slave labor comes from people who are not "Criminals" under your definition. And you keep purporting to be okay with this.
For a subject you seem to have so much passion for you should have some ideas on how we might help get those people out of the system without also releasing the ones who would just as soon put a bullet in you as look at you. I'd love to hear them. I'd start by getting rid of mandatory minimums for drug possession and disproportionate sentences for possession of crack vs powdered cocaine. It's the same god damn thing and targets minorities while being more lenient on the upper class white's who use powder rather than rock.
Oh, hi! I'm TGRR, and I live in the real world, the one that's, you know,
actually happening. In your world, you can get rid of those things. In mine, they can't even decriminalize pot without 55% of the population (and ALL of the government) throwing a fucking wobbler.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 03:10:14 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2011, 03:03:37 PM
The US doesn't have any reintegration projects? Damn ...
Yeah. As you're walking out the gate, the guards says, "See you real soon".
Ah, so it's like positive reinforcement therapy where they are taught they are in fact a very valuable and important part of a complex group dynamic, communicated by expressing wishes for their speedy return.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 03:12:48 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:41:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 02:11:04 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 01:39:44 PM
You logic quoted above clearly shows that you feel if someone is in jail, they made a choice to break the law.
Combine this with your "no random actions", and you draw a straight line from "choose crime" to "incarcerated".
Ergo, your position = if you are incarcerated, you made that choice.
They're your words. Maybe you should be better about choosing them.
not everyone in jail should be there, and increasingly incarcerating people for non-violent offenses serves no value to society. I thought I was clear about that early on.
No, that was not at all clear. Even so, you still sound like you're saying "well, so long as their in prison, they might as well be useful". And if you are, your statement applies just as much to the people currently in prison unfairly and/or on stupid charges as it does to murders and rapists. The system is full of drug offenders and non-violent criminals, as well as innocent people. The bulk of your slave labor comes from people who are not "Criminals" under your definition. And you keep purporting to be okay with this.
For a subject you seem to have so much passion for you should have some ideas on how we might help get those people out of the system without also releasing the ones who would just as soon put a bullet in you as look at you. I'd love to hear them. I'd start by getting rid of mandatory minimums for drug possession and disproportionate sentences for possession of crack vs powdered cocaine. It's the same god damn thing and targets minorities while being more lenient on the upper class white's who use powder rather than rock.
Oh, hi! I'm TGRR, and I live in the real world, the one that's, you know, actually happening. In your world, you can get rid of those things. In mine, they can't even decriminalize pot without 55% of the population (and ALL of the government) throwing a fucking wobbler.
It's already occurring. Currently there's only 13 states that still have a disparity in the ratio between how they sentence for crack vs cocaine. The fair sentencing act, signed by this President, dropped the federal ratio down to 18:1. Congress, of course, rejected moving it to 1:1. It also removed the mandatory minimum 5 years for first possession.
But hey, it's easier just throw our hands up and say it's hopeless. It's much more fun to gnash our teeth and say that nothing ever changes, even when there's evidence that things can be changed and are being changed.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:22:56 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 03:12:48 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:41:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 02:11:04 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 01:39:44 PM
You logic quoted above clearly shows that you feel if someone is in jail, they made a choice to break the law.
Combine this with your "no random actions", and you draw a straight line from "choose crime" to "incarcerated".
Ergo, your position = if you are incarcerated, you made that choice.
They're your words. Maybe you should be better about choosing them.
not everyone in jail should be there, and increasingly incarcerating people for non-violent offenses serves no value to society. I thought I was clear about that early on.
No, that was not at all clear. Even so, you still sound like you're saying "well, so long as their in prison, they might as well be useful". And if you are, your statement applies just as much to the people currently in prison unfairly and/or on stupid charges as it does to murders and rapists. The system is full of drug offenders and non-violent criminals, as well as innocent people. The bulk of your slave labor comes from people who are not "Criminals" under your definition. And you keep purporting to be okay with this.
For a subject you seem to have so much passion for you should have some ideas on how we might help get those people out of the system without also releasing the ones who would just as soon put a bullet in you as look at you. I'd love to hear them. I'd start by getting rid of mandatory minimums for drug possession and disproportionate sentences for possession of crack vs powdered cocaine. It's the same god damn thing and targets minorities while being more lenient on the upper class white's who use powder rather than rock.
Oh, hi! I'm TGRR, and I live in the real world, the one that's, you know, actually happening. In your world, you can get rid of those things. In mine, they can't even decriminalize pot without 55% of the population (and ALL of the government) throwing a fucking wobbler.
It's already occurring. Currently there's only 13 states that still have a disparity in the ratio between how they sentence for crack vs cocaine. The fair sentencing act, signed by this President, dropped the federal ratio down to 18:1. Congress, of course, rejected moving it to 1:1. It also removed the mandatory minimum 5 years for first possession.
But hey, it's easier just throw our hands up and say it's hopeless. It's much more fun to gnash our teeth and say that nothing ever changes, even when there's evidence that things can be changed and are being changed.
Oh, well then, we should see those prisons emptying out now, right?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:22:56 PM
even when there's evidence that things can be changed and are being changed.
:cn:
Last I checked, there weren't mass releases of prisoners, crack is STILL punished more harshly than powder (18:1 is still a very disproportionate, no?), and living in the ghetto gets you free police harassment. Did this change since last week?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:22:56 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 03:12:48 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:41:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 02:11:04 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 01:39:44 PM
You logic quoted above clearly shows that you feel if someone is in jail, they made a choice to break the law.
Combine this with your "no random actions", and you draw a straight line from "choose crime" to "incarcerated".
Ergo, your position = if you are incarcerated, you made that choice.
They're your words. Maybe you should be better about choosing them.
not everyone in jail should be there, and increasingly incarcerating people for non-violent offenses serves no value to society. I thought I was clear about that early on.
No, that was not at all clear. Even so, you still sound like you're saying "well, so long as their in prison, they might as well be useful". And if you are, your statement applies just as much to the people currently in prison unfairly and/or on stupid charges as it does to murders and rapists. The system is full of drug offenders and non-violent criminals, as well as innocent people. The bulk of your slave labor comes from people who are not "Criminals" under your definition. And you keep purporting to be okay with this.
For a subject you seem to have so much passion for you should have some ideas on how we might help get those people out of the system without also releasing the ones who would just as soon put a bullet in you as look at you. I'd love to hear them. I'd start by getting rid of mandatory minimums for drug possession and disproportionate sentences for possession of crack vs powdered cocaine. It's the same god damn thing and targets minorities while being more lenient on the upper class white's who use powder rather than rock.
Oh, hi! I'm TGRR, and I live in the real world, the one that's, you know, actually happening. In your world, you can get rid of those things. In mine, they can't even decriminalize pot without 55% of the population (and ALL of the government) throwing a fucking wobbler.
It's already occurring. Currently there's only 13 states that still have a disparity in the ratio between how they sentence for crack vs cocaine. The fair sentencing act, signed by this President, dropped the federal ratio down to 18:1. Congress, of course, rejected moving it to 1:1. It also removed the mandatory minimum 5 years for first possession.
But hey, it's easier just throw our hands up and say it's hopeless. It's much more fun to gnash our teeth and say that nothing ever changes, even when there's evidence that things can be changed and are being changed.
Throwing our hands up? What? Complaining about the system is the opposite of giving up. And we pretty much all vote, derp.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:35:00 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:22:56 PM
even when there's evidence that things can be changed and are being changed.
:cn:
Last I checked, there weren't mass releases of prisoners, crack is STILL punished more harshly than powder (18:1 is still a very disproportionate, no?), and living in the ghetto gets you free police harassment. Did this change since last week?
http://www.sentencingproject.org/CRACKREFORM/
You're actually expecting instant gratification in the form or reform to the legal system. And I'm being told I'm the one not living in reality.
To the post I haven't replied to, I'm not ignoring them I just have a project deadline to keep that I'm still putting off even as I type this. I'll try and come back to this thread later today after I get these drawings off of my desk.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 02:41:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 02:11:04 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 01:39:44 PM
You logic quoted above clearly shows that you feel if someone is in jail, they made a choice to break the law.
Combine this with your "no random actions", and you draw a straight line from "choose crime" to "incarcerated".
Ergo, your position = if you are incarcerated, you made that choice.
They're your words. Maybe you should be better about choosing them.
not everyone in jail should be there, and increasingly incarcerating people for non-violent offenses serves no value to society. I thought I was clear about that early on.
No, that was not at all clear. Even so, you still sound like you're saying "well, so long as their in prison, they might as well be useful". And if you are, your statement applies just as much to the people currently in prison unfairly and/or on stupid charges as it does to murders and rapists. The system is full of drug offenders and non-violent criminals, as well as innocent people. The bulk of your slave labor comes from people who are not "Criminals" under your definition. And you keep purporting to be okay with this.
For a subject you seem to have so much passion for you should have some ideas on how we might help get those people out of the system without also releasing the ones who would just as soon put a bullet in you as look at you. I'd love to hear them. I'd start by getting rid of mandatory minimums for drug possession and disproportionate sentences for possession of crack vs powdered cocaine. It's the same god damn thing and targets minorities while being more lenient on the upper class white's who use powder rather than rock.
The alternatives are so bloody blatantly obvious. Do you need them spelled out aloud for you? What grade are you in?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:39:51 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 03:35:00 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 03:22:56 PM
even when there's evidence that things can be changed and are being changed.
:cn:
Last I checked, there weren't mass releases of prisoners, crack is STILL punished more harshly than powder (18:1 is still a very disproportionate, no?), and living in the ghetto gets you free police harassment. Did this change since last week?
http://www.sentencingproject.org/CRACKREFORM/
You're actually expecting instant gratification in the form or reform to the legal system. And I'm being told I'm the one not living in reality.
To the post I haven't replied to, I'm not ignoring them I just have a project deadline to keep that I'm still putting off even as I type this. I'll try and come back to this thread later today after I get these drawings off of my desk.
No, I'm expecting you to take into account that 18:1 is still a goddamn disparity, people who were sentenced under harsher laws are STILL IN PRISON, and that sentencing laws have no effect whatsoever on the behavior of police. Sorry, I know that I shouldn't expect the facts of the matter to interfere with my jubilation over the fact that six months ago judges were advised not to be so obvious in their sentencing disparities, but hey, what can I say? I'm kinda set in my ways.
Jesus, Pickle...if you keep digging your heels in over such an obviously stupid position as the one you've taken ITT, you're gonna lose your biped cred for real, not just jokes like the one I made a few pages back.
I suspect that you're suffering from some cognitive dissonance as a result of trying to couch your terms to reflect your objectivist/libertarian views even though the reality of the subject matter is absolutely 100% incompatible with an objectivist/libertarian viewpoint. Feel free to go read the Chapel Perilous thread now.
Wow this thread suffered a rather interesting derailment.
:lulz:
Im going to chime in by saying that based on my own experience with the law, I can agree that its full of people who want to screw you.
When I had my first major run-in with the law(It was for something I didnt do), for the first and last time in my life I honestly began to consider that there was some massive Kafka conspiracy against me. That wasnt the case however, it was just the fact that the system is full of people who have it in their best interest to screw you over.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 12:45:56 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 11, 2011, 11:54:45 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 11:47:09 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 11, 2011, 11:11:22 PM
But that presentation completely leaves out the fact that the only way to end up in the system is to break laws that are on the books.
By now, there's probably a few hundred people who have been released on DNA evidence who would disagree with that.
Granted, but we're getting better at taking that evidence into consideration. We're adapting to the technology. Admittedly slowly, but it's happening. And a few hundred is probably a conservative estimate, though I haven't any figures at the moment to say otherwise.
It is still a system created by humans, with all of the problems that entails.
Yeah. I got dragged though the criminal justice system by the heels a few years back, and I can tell you this: Whether or not you go to jail is determined SOLELY by what quality of lawyer you can AFFORD.
Speaking as a paralegal....
I know I'm about 10 pages back but...a thousand times THIS. Sure there are the cases of wrongful accusations that may get sorted out ahead of time somehow, maybe a lenient Judge that feels bad for you if you don't have a record and haven't committed a terrible crime. But the differences between going in with no lawyer, a court appointed lawyer and a good private lawyer are significant. Heck, even how and when and how much you pay the private lawyer makes a difference. Much like everyone in jail MUST be guilty, certainly all the clients my boss have gotten off the hook at 500% innocent. :lol:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:31:58 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
Not being poor and Brown is a matter of personal responsibility, you know. 15 year old Jose may or may not have robbed that convenience store, but what the hell? He's smudgy and we caught him walking down the street 4 blocks away.
Nothing random about that.
Holy shit, I'm still waaay behind on this conversation but...holy shit, yes. There was a recent case handled by another lawyer in this office where "Mr. Sanchez/Nunez/Other Generic Non-White Person was accused of shoplifting, from a convenience store, disposable razors. Nevermind that there were no cameras showing anyone stealing (it was alleged that there was), the manager DIDN'T EVEN KNOW what or how many were allegedly stolen, NO-ONE SAW HIM TAKE ANYTHING, nothing was recovered, but the manager thought some Hispanic guy looked suspicious (couldn't give a description other than "brown person") but guys girlfriend was waiting outside, police threatened her with this and that so she said that he went in the store for something and he was arrested. The manager didn't even show up in Court, wouldn't provide a copy of the store's surveillance from that day, sent a teenage/twenty-something clerk who had no clue what was going in to stand in for him (without letting anyone know) and the DA STILL WANTED TO GO FORWARD. Needless to say the case was eventually dismissed, but not after the DA tried to get him to plead out first.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on May 12, 2011, 06:39:28 PM
Speaking as a paralegal....
I am told experience means nothing, actually. IF the world suddenly wised up, and everyone acted rationally, there wouldn't be a problem. Ergo, there is no problem. It's an objectivist's paradise, I tells ya!
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on May 12, 2011, 07:00:46 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:31:58 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
Not being poor and Brown is a matter of personal responsibility, you know. 15 year old Jose may or may not have robbed that convenience store, but what the hell? He's smudgy and we caught him walking down the street 4 blocks away.
Nothing random about that.
Holy shit, I'm still waaay behind on this conversation but...holy shit, yes. There was a recent case handled by another lawyer in this office where "Mr. Sanchez/Nunez/Other Generic Non-White Person was accused of shoplifting, from a convenience store, disposable razors. Nevermind that there were no cameras showing anyone stealing (it was alleged that there was), the manager DIDN'T EVEN KNOW what or how many were allegedly stolen, NO-ONE SAW HIM TAKE ANYTHING, nothing was recovered, but the manager thought some Hispanic guy looked suspicious (couldn't give a description other than "brown person") but guys girlfriend was waiting outside, police threatened her with this and that so she said that he went in the store for something and he was arrested. The manager didn't even show up in Court, wouldn't provide a copy of the store's surveillance from that day, sent a teenage/twenty-something clerk who had no clue what was going in to stand in for him (without letting anyone know) and the DA STILL WANTED TO GO FORWARD. Needless to say the case was eventually dismissed, but not after the DA tried to get him to plead out first.
I have also been told, in this thread, that it's okay if a "few people" get their lives ruined. You know, for The Perfect State™.
Also, because sometimes people stab other people. Locking up Brown people is the only way to be
safe.
I thought some of you may be interested in these statistics from the Innocence Project, which has now had some 100 death sentences overturned based upon post-conviction evidence. According to their study of the first 70 cases reversed:
Over 30 of them involved prosecutorial misconduct.
Over 30 of them involved police misconduct which led to wrongful convictions.
Approximately 15 of them involved false witness testimony.
34% of the police misconduct cases involved suppression of exculpatory evidence. 11% involved evidence fabrication.
37% of the prosecutorial misconduct cases involved suppression of exculpatroy evidence. 25% involved knowing use of false testimony.
http://caught.net/innoc.htm
Just a few facts about the foundation of bones in the attempt of attaining utopia.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:02:36 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on May 12, 2011, 07:00:46 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:31:58 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
Not being poor and Brown is a matter of personal responsibility, you know. 15 year old Jose may or may not have robbed that convenience store, but what the hell? He's smudgy and we caught him walking down the street 4 blocks away.
Nothing random about that.
Holy shit, I'm still waaay behind on this conversation but...holy shit, yes. There was a recent case handled by another lawyer in this office where "Mr. Sanchez/Nunez/Other Generic Non-White Person was accused of shoplifting, from a convenience store, disposable razors. Nevermind that there were no cameras showing anyone stealing (it was alleged that there was), the manager DIDN'T EVEN KNOW what or how many were allegedly stolen, NO-ONE SAW HIM TAKE ANYTHING, nothing was recovered, but the manager thought some Hispanic guy looked suspicious (couldn't give a description other than "brown person") but guys girlfriend was waiting outside, police threatened her with this and that so she said that he went in the store for something and he was arrested. The manager didn't even show up in Court, wouldn't provide a copy of the store's surveillance from that day, sent a teenage/twenty-something clerk who had no clue what was going in to stand in for him (without letting anyone know) and the DA STILL WANTED TO GO FORWARD. Needless to say the case was eventually dismissed, but not after the DA tried to get him to plead out first.
I have also been told, in this thread, that it's okay if a "few people" get their lives ruined. You know, for The Perfect State™.
Also, because sometimes people stab other people. Locking up Brown people is the only way to be safe.
Yeah. Anyway, I heard they
steal.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:01:26 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on May 12, 2011, 06:39:28 PM
Speaking as a paralegal....
I am told experience means nothing, actually. IF the world suddenly wised up, and everyone acted rationally, there wouldn't be a problem. Ergo, there is no problem. It's an objectivist's paradise, I tells ya!
Whoops, my bad. I guess I've just been working in imaginationland for the past 7 years. I guess our repeat clients have only been in the wrong place at the wrong time every single time. And Mr. Convenience Store Owner above knew that Mr. Hispanic did steal those (unspecified) items with his psychic abilities.
Nevermind when I had a medical bill that I had already paid up (they wont pull your wisdom teeth unless you pay IN FULL up front), explained this to the oral surgeon in a letter, was told to fuck off and pay. Then when my boss had me copy & paste my letter on to his letterhead and they said "whoops, sorry to bother you". It wasnt because he was a lawyer, my original letter must have been lost in the mail :lulz:
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 12, 2011, 07:10:57 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:02:36 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on May 12, 2011, 07:00:46 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 01:31:58 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 12, 2011, 01:27:23 AM
Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.
Not being poor and Brown is a matter of personal responsibility, you know. 15 year old Jose may or may not have robbed that convenience store, but what the hell? He's smudgy and we caught him walking down the street 4 blocks away.
Nothing random about that.
Holy shit, I'm still waaay behind on this conversation but...holy shit, yes. There was a recent case handled by another lawyer in this office where "Mr. Sanchez/Nunez/Other Generic Non-White Person was accused of shoplifting, from a convenience store, disposable razors. Nevermind that there were no cameras showing anyone stealing (it was alleged that there was), the manager DIDN'T EVEN KNOW what or how many were allegedly stolen, NO-ONE SAW HIM TAKE ANYTHING, nothing was recovered, but the manager thought some Hispanic guy looked suspicious (couldn't give a description other than "brown person") but guys girlfriend was waiting outside, police threatened her with this and that so she said that he went in the store for something and he was arrested. The manager didn't even show up in Court, wouldn't provide a copy of the store's surveillance from that day, sent a teenage/twenty-something clerk who had no clue what was going in to stand in for him (without letting anyone know) and the DA STILL WANTED TO GO FORWARD. Needless to say the case was eventually dismissed, but not after the DA tried to get him to plead out first.
I have also been told, in this thread, that it's okay if a "few people" get their lives ruined. You know, for The Perfect State™.
Also, because sometimes people stab other people. Locking up Brown people is the only way to be safe.
Yeah. Anyway, I heard they steal.
I'm still a few pages back on replies but really needed to address this. I haven't been calling it "The Perfect State" or even that that can ever be achieved. Some of you are also making assumptions about my beliefs (I'm hardly an Objectivist, and don't believe a Utopia of any flavor is possible). The idea that any legal system created by people could ever be perfect enough to ensure that no one is ever falsely accused, arrested, tried or convicted sounds a damn sight more Utopian than accepting that what we have now, while flawed, still has checks and balances that help to prevent this sort of thing and is also fluid and able to be changed over time when mistakes are identified.
and Rev. the fact of the matter is that Men, minorities, and low income people are more likely to be victims of crime and more likely to commit crime, [EDIT] and the rate of violent crime DID increase throughout the 70's and 80's, prompting calls for stricter laws. [/EDIT] That's the statistical reality. I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
What sort of legal system would you even accept? Is there one?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
wouldn't that create the lulz, chaos and disorder you so adore?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
But Charley, they
chose to be there.....
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
Meanwhile, rates of violent crime have been plummeting for over 20 years, but the incarceration rate has skyrocketed.
But the disco pickle is around the bend, now. He's not even responding to the people here, he's just frothing at the mouth and ranting.
If our system was "OK" I could see Pickle's argument... but its demonstratively not even 'OK'. Claiming "its not perfect, but it works" seems like a head in the sand response.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer," said
English jurist William Blackstone. The ratio 10:1, now known as the "Blackstone
ratio," expresses the classic Anglo-American ideas of the presumption of
innocence and (insofar as the statement speaks of "guilt," "conviction,"
"imprisonment," and the like) the burden of proof "beyond a reasonable doubt"
that prevails in criminal law.
http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1016&context=alexander_volokh&sei-redir=1#search=%22it+is+better+to+let+10+guilty+men+go+free%22
I saw an article a few months ago that said they were actually closing prisons in the Netherlands because they didn't have enough inmates. That would never happen here, we just build more and find ways of overcrowding them.
When you subtract the wrongfully convicted people, the people convicted of consensual so-called "crimes", the driving-while-black and similar, how many are left? You probably COULD let them out and the resulting crime wouldn't be a fraction of the horrorshow created by the court system.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:47:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
wouldn't that create the lulz, chaos and disorder you so adore?
No, I think the lulz, chaos, and disorder is doing quite nicely, thank you. I don't expect you to understand. Hell, anyone other than RCH, LMNO, Richter, Nigel, and Payne
1 that say they DO understand is either confused or lying. It's certainly not something I'd expect an objectivist to comprehend, because your heads are full of bad signal and a pile of the wrong values. You've already found something to
believe in, so you don't
need The World As It Really Is.
No, I think it's better that you comfort yourself with the notion that all the people who got ground up in the system just made
bad choices, choices that a fine young Randite like yourself would never make. And you can keep congratulating yourself, as you continue burrowing your head up your arse in search of the light that must surely eventually be there.
1 There are plenty of people who understand Discordianism, but only a few that
truly understand Doom.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 12, 2011, 07:51:30 PM
If our system was "OK" I could see Pickle's argument... but its demonstratively not even 'OK'. Claiming "its not perfect, but it works" seems like a head in the sand response.
Well, it
does work, if you conclude the the point of the modern US legal system is to widen the cultural and economic gulf in order to strengthen the upper class while disempowering the poor, and frightening the middle class into passing more stringent laws.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 12, 2011, 07:55:11 PM
I saw an article a few months ago that said they were actually closing prisons in the Netherlands because they didn't have enough inmates. That would never happen here, we just build more and find ways of overcrowding them.
When you subtract the wrongfully convicted people, the people convicted of consensual so-called "crimes", the driving-while-black and similar, how many are left? You probably COULD let them out and the resulting crime wouldn't be a fraction of the horrorshow created by the court system.
Big Business™ called, they want you dead.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 12, 2011, 07:51:30 PM
If our system was "OK" I could see Pickle's argument... but its demonstratively not even 'OK'. Claiming "its not perfect, but it works" seems like a head in the sand response.
And as for those people ground into hamburger by this "working" system, well,
it was a decision.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 07:57:02 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 12, 2011, 07:51:30 PM
If our system was "OK" I could see Pickle's argument... but its demonstratively not even 'OK'. Claiming "its not perfect, but it works" seems like a head in the sand response.
Well, it does work, if you conclude the the point of the modern US legal system is to widen the cultural and economic gulf in order to strengthen the upper class while disempowering the poor, and frightening the middle class into passing more stringent laws.
Well, this is the beauty of objectivism. All objectivists are
pre-rich...So, through the power of the Free Market™ and the divine intercession of Horatio Alger, all objectivists will be rich magnates that don't have to concern themselves about what happens to people who made the decision to be poor.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
That's not accurate at all.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:57:27 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 12, 2011, 07:55:11 PM
I saw an article a few months ago that said they were actually closing prisons in the Netherlands because they didn't have enough inmates. That would never happen here, we just build more and find ways of overcrowding them.
When you subtract the wrongfully convicted people, the people convicted of consensual so-called "crimes", the driving-while-black and similar, how many are left? You probably COULD let them out and the resulting crime wouldn't be a fraction of the horrorshow created by the court system.
Big Business™ called, they want you dead.
That probably beats building missiles in Huntsville.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
That's not accurate at all.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes
WTF? That shows crimes committed, not people in prison.
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 07:51:18 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
Meanwhile, rates of violent crime have been plummeting for over 20 years, but the incarceration rate has skyrocketed.
But the disco pickle is around the bend, now. He's not even responding to the people here, he's just frothing at the mouth and ranting.
while violent crime has been decreasing since the 90's, due to the War on Drugs and the laws that came with it in the 80's, yes, we're incarcerating a shit ton of people for drug offenses. This was discussed earlier in the thread.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:03:53 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
That's not accurate at all.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes
WTF? That shows crimes committed, not people in prison.
Damn those pesky facts all to hell!
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:04:20 PM
while violent crime has been decreasing since the 90's, due to the War on Drugs and the laws that came with it in the 80's
Again: wat?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:04:20 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 07:51:18 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
Meanwhile, rates of violent crime have been plummeting for over 20 years, but the incarceration rate has skyrocketed.
But the disco pickle is around the bend, now. He's not even responding to the people here, he's just frothing at the mouth and ranting.
while violent crime has been decreasing since the 90's, due to the War on Drugs and the laws that came with it in the 80's, yes, we're incarcerating a shit ton of people for drug offenses. This was discussed earlier in the thread.
Ah, so the people who SHOULDN'T be in prison don't count, and it's all good.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
That's not accurate at all.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes
Prison Population:
United States: 2,292,133
France: 59,655
Germany: 69,385
Britain: 85,206
_________
214,246
Cribbed from: http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/worldbrief/
It's actually VERY accurate.
Luna, that's not fair. You're using relevant data.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:06:35 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:03:53 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
That's not accurate at all.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes
WTF? That shows crimes committed, not people in prison.
Damn those pesky facts all to hell!
sorry, this was the proper link.
[EDIT FOR LINK]http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/downloads/world-prison-pop-seventh.pdf
[EDIT]and where did you get a percentage on people falsely imprisoned in the US?
dicks. that was a bit rude. you're not ALL dicks.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 12, 2011, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:04:20 PM
while violent crime has been decreasing since the 90's, due to the War on Drugs and the laws that came with it in the 80's
Again: wat?
WARNING:
The preceding announcement is from an unreliable source and while it may not be statistically correct, in the mind of the user it may be used to promote his argument.
:lulz:
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:10:53 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:06:35 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:03:53 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
That's not accurate at all.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes
WTF? That shows crimes committed, not people in prison.
Damn those pesky facts all to hell!
sorry, this was the proper link.
dicks.
What link?
Also, it's interesting that the first reaction of an objectivist to evidence in contradiction to their beliefs is to call everyone "dicks".
Question: Are you currently in university, DP?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:10:25 PM
Luna, that's not fair. You're using relevant data.
Betcher ass I am. Who said ANYTHING is
fair?
If everything was fair, we wouldn't have the combined prison population of Germany, England, and France's worth of innocent people sitting in cells.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:10:53 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:06:35 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:03:53 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
That's not accurate at all.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes
WTF? That shows crimes committed, not people in prison.
Damn those pesky facts all to hell!
sorry, this was the proper link.
dicks.
My Fellow Dicks,
I think we hurted it's feewings by using real data. Please carry on.
Quote from: Luna on May 12, 2011, 08:13:52 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:10:25 PM
Luna, that's not fair. You're using relevant data.
Betcher ass I am. Who said ANYTHING is fair?
If everything was fair, we wouldn't have the combined prison population of Germany, England, and France's worth of innocent people sitting in cells.
Well yeah, but they're all hopeless Europeans.... not AMERICANS!
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
and Rev. the fact of the matter is that Men, minorities, and low income people are more likely to be victims of crime and more likely to commit crime, [EDIT] and the rate of violent crime DID increase throughout the 70's and 80's, prompting calls for stricter laws. [/EDIT] That's the statistical reality. I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
Commit? Or be convicted of?
And why do you suppose that is? I mean surely all that legal income, higher education and equal opportunity work is just their's for the taking right? If they just WANTED it bad enough they'd be living the American dream with the white picket fence and rolling around in piles of money RIGHT? It's just so easy! They just don't WANT it enough, those lazy brown bastards, eh?
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on May 12, 2011, 08:15:24 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
and Rev. the fact of the matter is that Men, minorities, and low income people are more likely to be victims of crime and more likely to commit crime, [EDIT] and the rate of violent crime DID increase throughout the 70's and 80's, prompting calls for stricter laws. [/EDIT] That's the statistical reality. I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
Commit? Or be convicted of?
And why do you suppose that is? I mean surely all that legal income, higher education and equal opportunity work is just their's for the taking right? If they just WANTED it bad enough they'd be living the American dream with the white picket fence and rolling around in piles of money RIGHT? It's just so easy! They just don't WANT it enough, those lazy brown bastards, eh?
They should have read
The Fountainhead while there was still time. :cry:
IT'S NOT PERFECT BUT IT WORKS!!!
/
:retard:
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:14:15 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:10:53 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:06:35 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:03:53 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
That's not accurate at all.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes
WTF? That shows crimes committed, not people in prison.
Damn those pesky facts all to hell!
sorry, this was the proper link.
dicks.
My Fellow Dicks,
I think we hurted it's feewings by using real data. Please carry on.
No, no, no, the number of reported crimes = the number of people in prison.
:lol:
Every year in America, 6,000 killers get away with murder.
The percentage of homicides that go unsolved in the United States has risen alarmingly even as the homicide rate has fallen to levels last seen in the 1960s.
Despite dramatic improvements in DNA analysis and forensic science, police fail to make an arrest in more than one-third of all homicides. National clearance rates for murder and manslaughter have fallen from about 90 percent in the 1960s to below 65 percent in recent years.
The majority of homicides now go unsolved at dozens of big-city police departments, according to a Scripps Howard News Service study of crime records provided by the FBI.
{snip}
Experts say that homicides are tougher to solve now because crimes of passion, where assailants are easier to identify, have been replaced by drug- and gang-related killings. Many police chiefs -- especially in areas with rising numbers of unsolved crimes -- blame a lack of witness cooperation.
http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2010/may/24/unsolved-homicides/
God, this is swiftly approaching mental abuse.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PMwhat we have now, while flawed, still has checks and balances that help to prevent this sort of thing and is also fluid and able to be changed over time when mistakes are identified.
you're still operating under the false premise that the system, as it currenty exists, is something other than EXACTLY what it was intended to be. Those "checks and balances" are a lie, and nobody who has any degree of control over how the system is shaped has any interest in making changes that you or I would regard as improvements. In fact, they have a heavily vested interest in NOT making any of those sorts of changes.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 08:22:46 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PMwhat we have now, while flawed, still has checks and balances that help to prevent this sort of thing and is also fluid and able to be changed over time when mistakes are identified.
you're still operating under the false premise that the system, as it currenty exists, is something other than EXACTLY what it was intended to be. Those "checks and balances" are a lie, and nobody who has any degree of control over how the system is shaped has any interest in making changes that you or I would regard as improvements. In fact, they have a heavily vested interest in NOT making any of those sorts of changes.
Exactly, its like saying that Windows 95 works. :lulz:
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 12, 2011, 07:55:11 PM
I saw an article a few months ago that said they were actually closing prisons in the Netherlands because they didn't have enough inmates. That would never happen here, we just build more and find ways of overcrowding them.
When you subtract the wrongfully convicted people, the people convicted of consensual so-called "crimes", the driving-while-black and similar, how many are left? You probably COULD let them out and the resulting crime wouldn't be a fraction of the horrorshow created by the court system.
Stay scared America
Stay scared
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:20:16 PM
Every year in America, 6,000 killers get away with murder.
The percentage of homicides that go unsolved in the United States has risen alarmingly even as the homicide rate has fallen to levels last seen in the 1960s.
Despite dramatic improvements in DNA analysis and forensic science, police fail to make an arrest in more than one-third of all homicides. National clearance rates for murder and manslaughter have fallen from about 90 percent in the 1960s to below 65 percent in recent years.
The majority of homicides now go unsolved at dozens of big-city police departments, according to a Scripps Howard News Service study of crime records provided by the FBI.
{snip}
Experts say that homicides are tougher to solve now because crimes of passion, where assailants are easier to identify, have been replaced by drug- and gang-related killings. Many police chiefs -- especially in areas with rising numbers of unsolved crimes -- blame a lack of witness cooperation.
http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2010/may/24/unsolved-homicides/
God, this is swiftly approaching mental abuse.
It's okay. If they can't figure out who did it, they can always just grab a black guy.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 12, 2011, 08:25:37 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:20:16 PM
Every year in America, 6,000 killers get away with murder.
The percentage of homicides that go unsolved in the United States has risen alarmingly even as the homicide rate has fallen to levels last seen in the 1960s.
Despite dramatic improvements in DNA analysis and forensic science, police fail to make an arrest in more than one-third of all homicides. National clearance rates for murder and manslaughter have fallen from about 90 percent in the 1960s to below 65 percent in recent years.
The majority of homicides now go unsolved at dozens of big-city police departments, according to a Scripps Howard News Service study of crime records provided by the FBI.
{snip}
Experts say that homicides are tougher to solve now because crimes of passion, where assailants are easier to identify, have been replaced by drug- and gang-related killings. Many police chiefs -- especially in areas with rising numbers of unsolved crimes -- blame a lack of witness cooperation.
http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2010/may/24/unsolved-homicides/
God, this is swiftly approaching mental abuse.
It's okay. If they can't figure out who did it, they can always just grab a black guy.
Only if he chooses to be grabbed.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:26:41 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 12, 2011, 08:25:37 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:20:16 PM
Every year in America, 6,000 killers get away with murder.
The percentage of homicides that go unsolved in the United States has risen alarmingly even as the homicide rate has fallen to levels last seen in the 1960s.
Despite dramatic improvements in DNA analysis and forensic science, police fail to make an arrest in more than one-third of all homicides. National clearance rates for murder and manslaughter have fallen from about 90 percent in the 1960s to below 65 percent in recent years.
The majority of homicides now go unsolved at dozens of big-city police departments, according to a Scripps Howard News Service study of crime records provided by the FBI.
{snip}
Experts say that homicides are tougher to solve now because crimes of passion, where assailants are easier to identify, have been replaced by drug- and gang-related killings. Many police chiefs -- especially in areas with rising numbers of unsolved crimes -- blame a lack of witness cooperation.
http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2010/may/24/unsolved-homicides/
God, this is swiftly approaching mental abuse.
It's okay. If they can't figure out who did it, they can always just grab a black guy.
Only if he chooses to be grabbed.
:spittake:
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:26:41 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 12, 2011, 08:25:37 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:20:16 PM
Every year in America, 6,000 killers get away with murder.
The percentage of homicides that go unsolved in the United States has risen alarmingly even as the homicide rate has fallen to levels last seen in the 1960s.
Despite dramatic improvements in DNA analysis and forensic science, police fail to make an arrest in more than one-third of all homicides. National clearance rates for murder and manslaughter have fallen from about 90 percent in the 1960s to below 65 percent in recent years.
The majority of homicides now go unsolved at dozens of big-city police departments, according to a Scripps Howard News Service study of crime records provided by the FBI.
{snip}
Experts say that homicides are tougher to solve now because crimes of passion, where assailants are easier to identify, have been replaced by drug- and gang-related killings. Many police chiefs -- especially in areas with rising numbers of unsolved crimes -- blame a lack of witness cooperation.
http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2010/may/24/unsolved-homicides/
God, this is swiftly approaching mental abuse.
It's okay. If they can't figure out who did it, they can always just grab a black guy.
Only if he chooses to be grabbed.
:lulz: :lulz:
He probably should have chose to be born white and avoided all that unpleasantness in the first place.
I would expect most white Americans to not truly understand the impact that pervasive institutional racism can have on a person's life, but I expected better from someone who has actually spent time living in a place where they were the racial minority.
:mittens: , Charley.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:09:38 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:04:20 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 07:51:18 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
Meanwhile, rates of violent crime have been plummeting for over 20 years, but the incarceration rate has skyrocketed.
But the disco pickle is around the bend, now. He's not even responding to the people here, he's just frothing at the mouth and ranting.
while violent crime has been decreasing since the 90's, due to the War on Drugs and the laws that came with it in the 80's, yes, we're incarcerating a shit ton of people for drug offenses. This was discussed earlier in the thread.
Ah, so the people who SHOULDN'T be in prison don't count, and it's all good.
That seems to be the crux of his argument, yes.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:10:53 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:06:35 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:03:53 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
:lulz:
How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
That's not accurate at all.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes
WTF? That shows crimes committed, not people in prison.
Damn those pesky facts all to hell!
sorry, this was the proper link.
[EDIT FOR LINK]http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/downloads/world-prison-pop-seventh.pdf
[EDIT]and where did you get a percentage on people falsely imprisoned in the US?
dicks. that was a bit rude. you're not ALL dicks.
You DO realize that your link is to the exact same source I just posted... with older data.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 12, 2011, 07:51:30 PM
If our system was "OK" I could see Pickle's argument... but its demonstratively not even 'OK'. Claiming "its not perfect, but it works" seems like a head in the sand response.
I'm not even sure what his argument is, anymore.
The basic idea seems to be that people choose to commit a crime. But this is not always correlated very well with whether they end up in prison. So people don't choose to be in prison. That's a bit of a (strange) distinction having caused much confusion up to now ITT. Right so far Pickle? Because then I don't see how this related to whether it is okay to treat the prison population as slave labour.
As far as I'm aware, the Dutch system
isn't only focused on punishing the people in prison, but also on trying to make sure that when they get out, they won't commit crimes again. This is incredibly hard, and -- No I could say that, but reading the Dutch Wikipedia on Prison, matters are very much more complicated than that and depend a lot on the kind of crime and duration of inprisonment. The goals are (in order of appearance) firstly to keep society safe from dangerous individuals, then as a punishment, as example/discouragement to other lawbreakers, and only lastly in order to increase the chances of successful reintegration into society by means of education,work experience or therapy. The latter of course not for people sentenced to life, in their case, focus is on quality of life within the set limitations of imprisonment. (loosely translated from the Dutch wikipedia article).
Not very interesting, because it's just words and intentions. I mean, in the US they also
say that the law is equal for everyone and blah, but reality shows different. Since I'm thankfully not very familiar with the Dutch criminal system, I can't say how much the words and intentions match up with reality. I'm fairly sure it's a lot better though, but I don't want it to appear like it's a utopia or anything, since it's built by the same species of monkeys, after all.
An interesting statistic might be our recidivism rates. 75% of people that served prison time for a felony repeat their mistakes. For juvenile prison it's even 80%. The actual numbers might be higher, since they can only count the people that are caught, after all.
However, people that are sentenced to community service, only have a recidivism rate of 45 percent (youth: 55%). However, it must also be stated that people that got an alternative sentence generally committed less severe crimes than the people sentenced to prison.
Additionally, Anna Mea Bollocks, I hadn't heard that about NL having to close down prisons cause they weren't needed. I remember a while back (5-10 years or so) they were overcrowded, though. Got a link for that maybe?
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 12, 2011, 08:25:37 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:20:16 PM
Every year in America, 6,000 killers get away with murder.
The percentage of homicides that go unsolved in the United States has risen alarmingly even as the homicide rate has fallen to levels last seen in the 1960s.
Despite dramatic improvements in DNA analysis and forensic science, police fail to make an arrest in more than one-third of all homicides. National clearance rates for murder and manslaughter have fallen from about 90 percent in the 1960s to below 65 percent in recent years.
The majority of homicides now go unsolved at dozens of big-city police departments, according to a Scripps Howard News Service study of crime records provided by the FBI.
{snip}
Experts say that homicides are tougher to solve now because crimes of passion, where assailants are easier to identify, have been replaced by drug- and gang-related killings. Many police chiefs -- especially in areas with rising numbers of unsolved crimes -- blame a lack of witness cooperation.
http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2010/may/24/unsolved-homicides/
God, this is swiftly approaching mental abuse.
It's okay. If they can't figure out who did it, they can always just grab a black guy.
Yep, even if he didn't commit that crime, I'm sure he committed others. So its JUSTICE!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:55:35 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:47:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
wouldn't that create the lulz, chaos and disorder you so adore?
No, I think the lulz, chaos, and disorder is doing quite nicely, thank you. I don't expect you to understand. Hell, anyone other than RCH, LMNO, Richter, Nigel, and Payne1 that say they DO understand is either confused or lying. It's certainly not something I'd expect an objectivist to comprehend, because your heads are full of bad signal and a pile of the wrong values. You've already found something to believe in, so you don't need The World As It Really Is.
No, I think it's better that you comfort yourself with the notion that all the people who got ground up in the system just made bad choices, choices that a fine young Randite like yourself would never make. And you can keep congratulating yourself, as you continue burrowing your head up your arse in search of the light that must surely eventually be there.
1 There are plenty of people who understand Discordianism, but only a few that truly understand Doom.
This... I've never quite been able to wrap my brain around what objectivists believe... I try, I do...
Discordianism makes more sense, though.
http://caught.net/innoc.htm
Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.
lern 2 reed DP
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 08:29:13 PM
He probably should have chose to be born white and avoided all that unpleasantness in the first place.
I would expect most white Americans to not truly understand the impact that pervasive institutional racism can have on a person's life, but I expected better from someone who has actually spent time living in a place where they were the racial minority.
I'm having trouble keeping up with all of the posts and still getting drawings edited, so sorry about that.
I was actually targeted twice by police when I lived there. They were both times very clear that if I just greased their palms I wouldn't have to go through all that nastiness of going before a magistrate and potentially facing a larger fine. Whether it was because I was white or not I'll never know. It isn't actually in the police's interest to be fleecing the whiteys in a town where tourism is the primary industry.
After talking to a few of my friends down there I found out that sort of shit happens to everyone, not just the minorities.
I gladly paid them in cash and went on my way. If I had to choose my corruption, I'd have to say I'd rather have it up front and out in the open.
Charley, 10% still sounds like an awful lot, though. Wouldn't call it "only" ten percent.
Do you think it's an accurate estimate? (I truly have no idea)
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:37:41 PM
It isn't actually in the police's interest to be fleecing the whiteys in a town where tourism is the primary industry.
This is because, as an objectivist, you are ignorant of Finagle's 2d Law.
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2011, 08:38:45 PM
Charley, 10% still sounds like an awful lot, though. Wouldn't call it "only" ten percent.
Do you think it's an accurate estimate? (I truly have no idea)
Here's why they said "only".
DNA tests used before trial have exonerated at least 5000 prime suspects out of the first 18,000 DNA suspect samples at the FBI and other crime labs-suggesting a pre-trial error rate of more than 25 percent. Since 1977, some 553 people have been executed in the United States while another eighty death row inmates have been released after they were found innocent. For every seven executed, one innocent person is freed-an "error rate" of more than twelve (12) percent. In the State of Illinois, 12 people have been executed since 1977 while 13 have been released after proving their innocence-an error rate of 52 percent.
Quote from: Luna on May 12, 2011, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:55:35 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:47:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.
wat
:lulz:
wouldn't that create the lulz, chaos and disorder you so adore?
No, I think the lulz, chaos, and disorder is doing quite nicely, thank you. I don't expect you to understand. Hell, anyone other than RCH, LMNO, Richter, Nigel, and Payne1 that say they DO understand is either confused or lying. It's certainly not something I'd expect an objectivist to comprehend, because your heads are full of bad signal and a pile of the wrong values. You've already found something to believe in, so you don't need The World As It Really Is.
No, I think it's better that you comfort yourself with the notion that all the people who got ground up in the system just made bad choices, choices that a fine young Randite like yourself would never make. And you can keep congratulating yourself, as you continue burrowing your head up your arse in search of the light that must surely eventually be there.
1 There are plenty of people who understand Discordianism, but only a few that truly understand Doom.
This... I've never quite been able to wrap my brain around what objectivists believe... I try, I do...
Discordianism makes more sense, though.
It's simple. All the lucky circumstances an objectivist was born into are actually results of his own choices. Likewise all people who are unlucky made bad choices.
(Bear in mind that all objectivists also claim to have been born in a paper bag on the side of the road, and have worked their way up to being successfully self-employed/etc, by making good choices, like choosing to be born White in America, etc.)
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2011, 08:31:24 PM
An interesting statistic might be our recidivism rates. 75% of people that served prison time for a felony repeat their mistakes. For juvenile prison it's even 80%. The actual numbers might be higher, since they can only count the people that are caught, after all.
However, people that are sentenced to community service, only have a recidivism rate of 45 percent (youth: 55%). However, it must also be stated that people that got an alternative sentence generally committed less severe crimes than the people sentenced to prison.
It would sort of make sense, in theory at least, cause if people feel more connected to their community their less likely to be harmful towards it. The reality is probably obviously less idealistic, though 45% is a pretty decent rate even when the less severity in acts are taken in consideration.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:39:54 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:37:41 PM
It isn't actually in the police's interest to be fleecing the whiteys in a town where tourism is the primary industry.
This is because, as an objectivist, you are ignorant of Finagle's 2d Law.
I learned it under a different name. Now you've done it, I've started digging through 'See Also's' on wikipedia.
:argh!:
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2011, 08:31:24 PMAdditionally, Anna Mea Bollocks, I hadn't heard that about NL having to close down prisons cause they weren't needed. I remember a while back (5-10 years or so) they were overcrowded, though. Got a link for that maybe?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/28/netherlands-prisons-closi_n_208561.html
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:44:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:39:54 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:37:41 PM
It isn't actually in the police's interest to be fleecing the whiteys in a town where tourism is the primary industry.
This is because, as an objectivist, you are ignorant of Finagle's 2d Law.
I learned it under a different name. Now you've done it, I've started digging through 'See Also's' on wikipedia.
:argh!:
Naw. His FIRST law is usually the one mistakenly called Murphy's Law.
Here it is:
Finagle's 1st Law: Anything that CAN go wrong, WILL go wrong.
Finagle's 2d Law: Perversity
1 tends to a maximum.
Murphy's Law: If there are two ways to do something, and one way will lead to disaster, someone will do it that way.
1 Perversity in the classic sense, ie, doing things NOT in your own best interest. This is why the whole concept of the Free Market is utter rubbish.
Apropos to that, I learned a wonderful word from Less Wrong: "AKRASIA"
It roughly translates into "Acting against your own better judgement."
Welcome to the United States of Akrasia.
\
:teabagger1:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:47:20 PM
Naw. His FIRST law is usually the one mistakenly called Murphy's Law.
Here it is:
Finagle's 1st Law: Anything that CAN go wrong, WILL go wrong.
Finagle's 2d Law: Perversity1 tends to a maximum.
Murphy's Law: If there are two ways to do something, and one way will lead to disaster, someone will do it that way.
1 Perversity in the classic sense, ie, doing things NOT in your own best interest. This is why the whole concept of the Free Market is utter rubbish.
Around here, it tends to a maximum in the more common definition, too, I've noticed...
Quote from: Luna on May 12, 2011, 08:50:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:47:20 PM
Naw. His FIRST law is usually the one mistakenly called Murphy's Law.
Here it is:
Finagle's 1st Law: Anything that CAN go wrong, WILL go wrong.
Finagle's 2d Law: Perversity1 tends to a maximum.
Murphy's Law: If there are two ways to do something, and one way will lead to disaster, someone will do it that way.
1 Perversity in the classic sense, ie, doing things NOT in your own best interest. This is why the whole concept of the Free Market is utter rubbish.
Around here, it tends to a maximum in the more common definition, too, I've noticed...
But that's accidentally.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:54:17 PM
Quote from: Luna on May 12, 2011, 08:50:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:47:20 PM
Naw. His FIRST law is usually the one mistakenly called Murphy's Law.
Here it is:
Finagle's 1st Law: Anything that CAN go wrong, WILL go wrong.
Finagle's 2d Law: Perversity1 tends to a maximum.
Murphy's Law: If there are two ways to do something, and one way will lead to disaster, someone will do it that way.
1 Perversity in the classic sense, ie, doing things NOT in your own best interest. This is why the whole concept of the Free Market is utter rubbish.
Around here, it tends to a maximum in the more common definition, too, I've noticed...
But that's accidentally.
Are you positive it's not just another choice? :evil:
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 08:22:46 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PMwhat we have now, while flawed, still has checks and balances that help to prevent this sort of thing and is also fluid and able to be changed over time when mistakes are identified.
you're still operating under the false premise that the system, as it currenty exists, is something other than EXACTLY what it was intended to be. Those "checks and balances" are a lie, and nobody who has any degree of control over how the system is shaped has any interest in making changes that you or I would regard as improvements. In fact, they have a heavily vested interest in NOT making any of those sorts of changes.
I'm willing to accept that change in perspective, as fucking bleak as it is.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:55:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:54:17 PM
Quote from: Luna on May 12, 2011, 08:50:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:47:20 PM
Naw. His FIRST law is usually the one mistakenly called Murphy's Law.
Here it is:
Finagle's 1st Law: Anything that CAN go wrong, WILL go wrong.
Finagle's 2d Law: Perversity1 tends to a maximum.
Murphy's Law: If there are two ways to do something, and one way will lead to disaster, someone will do it that way.
1 Perversity in the classic sense, ie, doing things NOT in your own best interest. This is why the whole concept of the Free Market is utter rubbish.
Around here, it tends to a maximum in the more common definition, too, I've noticed...
But that's accidentally.
Are you positive it's not just another choice? :evil:
Fairly sure it's just the aura LMNO emits giving everyone else the accidentally, but I could be choosing to be wrong.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 08:49:57 PM
Apropos to that, I learned a wonderful word from Less Wrong: "AKRASIA"
It roughly translates into "Acting against your own better judgement."
Welcome to the United States of Akrasia.
\
:teabagger1:
More like "Acting against your own best interests."
Also, I notice DP ignored the fact that the 2nd link he posted proves him wrong.
Next Stop, Chapel Perilous! Woo woo!
Quote from: Luna on May 12, 2011, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:55:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:54:17 PM
Quote from: Luna on May 12, 2011, 08:50:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:47:20 PM
Naw. His FIRST law is usually the one mistakenly called Murphy's Law.
Here it is:
Finagle's 1st Law: Anything that CAN go wrong, WILL go wrong.
Finagle's 2d Law: Perversity1 tends to a maximum.
Murphy's Law: If there are two ways to do something, and one way will lead to disaster, someone will do it that way.
1 Perversity in the classic sense, ie, doing things NOT in your own best interest. This is why the whole concept of the Free Market is utter rubbish.
Around here, it tends to a maximum in the more common definition, too, I've noticed...
But that's accidentally.
Are you positive it's not just another choice? :evil:
Fairly sure it's just the aura LMNO emits giving everyone else the accidentally, but I could be choosing to be wrong.
Baby, I was BORN THIS WAY.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:55:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:54:17 PM
Quote from: Luna on May 12, 2011, 08:50:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:47:20 PM
Naw. His FIRST law is usually the one mistakenly called Murphy's Law.
Here it is:
Finagle's 1st Law: Anything that CAN go wrong, WILL go wrong.
Finagle's 2d Law: Perversity1 tends to a maximum.
Murphy's Law: If there are two ways to do something, and one way will lead to disaster, someone will do it that way.
1 Perversity in the classic sense, ie, doing things NOT in your own best interest. This is why the whole concept of the Free Market is utter rubbish.
Around here, it tends to a maximum in the more common definition, too, I've noticed...
But that's accidentally.
Are you positive it's not just another choice? :evil:
Positive. The inside of my pance is a truly random generator.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:56:22 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 08:49:57 PM
Apropos to that, I learned a wonderful word from Less Wrong: "AKRASIA"
It roughly translates into "Acting against your own better judgement."
Welcome to the United States of Akrasia.
\
:teabagger1:
More like "Acting against your own best interests."
Also, I notice DP ignored the fact that the 2nd link he posted proves him wrong.
Next Stop, Chapel Perilous! Woo woo!
:lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:44:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:39:54 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:37:41 PM
It isn't actually in the police's interest to be fleecing the whiteys in a town where tourism is the primary industry.
This is because, as an objectivist, you are ignorant of Finagle's 2d Law.
I learned it under a different name. Now you've done it, I've started digging through 'See Also's' on wikipedia.
:argh!:
Naw. His FIRST law is usually the one mistakenly called Murphy's Law.
Here it is:
Finagle's 1st Law: Anything that CAN go wrong, WILL go wrong.
Finagle's 2d Law: Perversity1 tends to a maximum.
Murphy's Law: If there are two ways to do something, and one way will lead to disaster, someone will do it that way.
1 Perversity in the classic sense, ie, doing things NOT in your own best interest. This is why the whole concept of the Free Market is utter rubbish.
Rational Choice theory. I remember reading a deal about it when I became interested in game theory.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 08:56:48 PM
Quote from: Luna on May 12, 2011, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:55:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:54:17 PM
Quote from: Luna on May 12, 2011, 08:50:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:47:20 PM
Naw. His FIRST law is usually the one mistakenly called Murphy's Law.
Here it is:
Finagle's 1st Law: Anything that CAN go wrong, WILL go wrong.
Finagle's 2d Law: Perversity1 tends to a maximum.
Murphy's Law: If there are two ways to do something, and one way will lead to disaster, someone will do it that way.
1 Perversity in the classic sense, ie, doing things NOT in your own best interest. This is why the whole concept of the Free Market is utter rubbish.
Around here, it tends to a maximum in the more common definition, too, I've noticed...
But that's accidentally.
Are you positive it's not just another choice? :evil:
Fairly sure it's just the aura LMNO emits giving everyone else the accidentally, but I could be choosing to be wrong.
Baby, I was BORN THIS WAY.
Which is why we love ya, man.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:57:12 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 08:55:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:54:17 PM
Quote from: Luna on May 12, 2011, 08:50:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:47:20 PM
Naw. His FIRST law is usually the one mistakenly called Murphy's Law.
Here it is:
Finagle's 1st Law: Anything that CAN go wrong, WILL go wrong.
Finagle's 2d Law: Perversity1 tends to a maximum.
Murphy's Law: If there are two ways to do something, and one way will lead to disaster, someone will do it that way.
1 Perversity in the classic sense, ie, doing things NOT in your own best interest. This is why the whole concept of the Free Market is utter rubbish.
Around here, it tends to a maximum in the more common definition, too, I've noticed...
But that's accidentally.
Are you positive it's not just another choice? :evil:
Positive. The inside of my pance is a truly random generator.
I officially have NO COMMENT regarding the inside of Roger's pance.
None, whatsoever.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:56:22 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 08:49:57 PM
Apropos to that, I learned a wonderful word from Less Wrong: "AKRASIA"
It roughly translates into "Acting against your own better judgement."
Welcome to the United States of Akrasia.
\
:teabagger1:
More like "Acting against your own best interests."
Also, I notice DP ignored the fact that the 2nd link he posted proves him wrong.
Next Stop, Chapel Perilous! Woo woo!
I WAS WRONG. 200,000 was pretty much spot on. There wasn't any cognitive dissonance, just rushed linking and bad research on my part.
but then, no one's ever done that here.
much less admitted they were wrong. hope my admitting I was wrong doesn't start some sort of disturbing trend here.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:02:14 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:56:22 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 08:49:57 PM
Apropos to that, I learned a wonderful word from Less Wrong: "AKRASIA"
It roughly translates into "Acting against your own better judgement."
Welcome to the United States of Akrasia.
\
:teabagger1:
More like "Acting against your own best interests."
Also, I notice DP ignored the fact that the 2nd link he posted proves him wrong.
Next Stop, Chapel Perilous! Woo woo!
I WAS WRONG. 200,000 was pretty much spot on. There wasn't any cognitive dissonance, just rushed linking and bad research on my part.
but then, no one's ever done that here.
much less admitted they were wrong. hope my admitting I was wrong doesn't start some sort of disturbing trend here.
Actually, admitting that you were wrong might actually win you a point or two.
Sure won't hurt.
well seeing as how I have the wrong values, It'd be dishonest to not respectfully admit that every post of mine in this thread is potentially wrong.
But hell, if I wanted to spend time on a forum where everyone's values were similar to my own I'd be over at the circle jerk that is Reason.com
I like it here better. Better potential for learning new things.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:56:22 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 08:49:57 PM
Apropos to that, I learned a wonderful word from Less Wrong: "AKRASIA"
It roughly translates into "Acting against your own better judgement."
Welcome to the United States of Akrasia.
\
:teabagger1:
More like "Acting against your own best interests."
Also, I notice DP ignored the fact that the 2nd link he posted proves him wrong.
Next Stop, Chapel Perilous! Woo woo!
Quoteif you approach without the wand of intuition, you can stand at the door for decades never realizing you have arrived. You might think you are just waiting for a bus, or wandering from room to room looking for your cigarettes, watching a TV show, or reading a cryptic and ambiguous book visiting a PD.com thread. Chapel Perilous is tricky that way.
Quote from: Luna on May 12, 2011, 09:03:38 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:02:14 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 08:56:22 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 12, 2011, 08:49:57 PM
Apropos to that, I learned a wonderful word from Less Wrong: "AKRASIA"
It roughly translates into "Acting against your own better judgement."
Welcome to the United States of Akrasia.
\
:teabagger1:
More like "Acting against your own best interests."
Also, I notice DP ignored the fact that the 2nd link he posted proves him wrong.
Next Stop, Chapel Perilous! Woo woo!
I WAS WRONG. 200,000 was pretty much spot on. There wasn't any cognitive dissonance, just rushed linking and bad research on my part.
but then, no one's ever done that here.
much less admitted they were wrong. hope my admitting I was wrong doesn't start some sort of disturbing trend here.
Actually, admitting that you were wrong might actually win you a point or two.
Yeah, it's funny. People here do it all the time, and it actually INCREASES the respect others have toward them.
Because it shows they can think.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 12, 2011, 08:47:11 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2011, 08:31:24 PMAdditionally, Anna Mea Bollocks, I hadn't heard that about NL having to close down prisons cause they weren't needed. I remember a while back (5-10 years or so) they were overcrowded, though. Got a link for that maybe?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/28/netherlands-prisons-closi_n_208561.html
Two years ago, huh. Thanks for the link :)
(btw the NRC, linked as the source for that article, is one of the better Dutch newspapers--even though they consistently use the diminuitive to refer to UAVs, which pisses me off)
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:08:02 PM
well seeing as how I have the wrong values, It'd be dishonest to not respectfully admit that every post of mine in this thread is potentially wrong.
But hell, if I wanted to spend time on a forum where everyone's values were similar to my own I'd be over at the circle jerk that is Reason.com
I like it here better. Better potential for learning new things.
Reason.com, you say? I just sucked my pance up my arse in anticipation.
TGRR,
Hitting the laptop tonight.
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 09:12:04 PM
Quote from: Luna on May 12, 2011, 09:03:38 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:02:14 PM
I WAS WRONG. 200,000 was pretty much spot on. There wasn't any cognitive dissonance, just rushed linking and bad research on my part.
but then, no one's ever done that here.
much less admitted they were wrong. hope my admitting I was wrong doesn't start some sort of disturbing trend here.
Actually, admitting that you were wrong might actually win you a point or two.
Yeah, it's funny. People here do it all the time, and it actually INCREASES the respect others have toward them.
Because it shows they can think.
Some people (especially on the 'net) seem to get into the mindset that they are RIGHT, fuckitall, and they MUST PROVE IT.
Reconsidering and admitting that you are wrong is a sign that you're at least starting to think like a biped, rather than just parrot what you've been told.
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 09:12:04 PM
Yeah, it's funny. People here do it all the time, and it actually INCREASES the respect others have toward them.
Because it shows they can think.
Well, to be fair, that's one thing I noticed about Pickle before. He's stubborn, doesn't stop asking questions until he's convinced.
All in all, not too bad, plus I learned a whole lot of interesting stuff from this thread as well.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 09:14:21 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:08:02 PM
well seeing as how I have the wrong values, It'd be dishonest to not respectfully admit that every post of mine in this thread is potentially wrong.
But hell, if I wanted to spend time on a forum where everyone's values were similar to my own I'd be over at the circle jerk that is Reason.com
I like it here better. Better potential for learning new things.
Reason.com, you say? I just sucked my pance up my arse in anticipation.
TGRR,
Hitting the laptop tonight.
:evil:
Also, don't feel bad about having the wrong values. Almost everyone does, because they believe the wrong things, and operate off of bad signal.
Those of us who have "Bob" are the fortunate few. We practice omnifallibility...We assume that everything we know is at least half-horseshit (except Nigel, who has the annoying habit of being right all the fucking time), and we understand, you see, that people - including us - are going to fuck things up royally. Difference is, the rest of the world digs their heels in, while we drop our pance and roll in our own mistakes.
Others argue. We attempt to find good information.
This is why Free Market retards, Libertarians, Democrats, Republicans, Anarchists, and most religions are so insanely fucked in the head.
Another way of saying that is, "We know that everyone is fucked up, and They think everyone is fucked up besides them."
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 09:19:24 PM
Also, don't feel bad about having the wrong values. Almost everyone does, because they believe the wrong things, and operate off of bad signal.
Those of us who have "Bob" are the fortunate few. We practice omnifallibility...We assume that everything we know is at least half-horseshit (except Nigel, who has the annoying habit of being right all the fucking time), and we understand, you see, that people - including us - are going to fuck things up royally. Difference is, the rest of the world digs their heels in, while we drop our pance and roll in our own mistakes.
Others argue. We attempt to find good information.
This is why Free Market retards, Libertarians, Democrats, Republicans, Anarchists, and most religions are so insanely fucked in the head.
Hell yes.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 09:14:21 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:08:02 PM
well seeing as how I have the wrong values, It'd be dishonest to not respectfully admit that every post of mine in this thread is potentially wrong.
But hell, if I wanted to spend time on a forum where everyone's values were similar to my own I'd be over at the circle jerk that is Reason.com
I like it here better. Better potential for learning new things.
Reason.com, you say? I just sucked my pance up my arse in anticipation.
TGRR,
Hitting the laptop tonight.
well, they don't really have a forum like this place, so the potential for teh funnay is lower. You'd probably do better here:
http://www.dancarlin.com/phpbb3/ though not distinctly libertarian
also this place: http://forum.nationstates.net/viewforum.php?f=20
has a pretty interesting if simple game where you make your own nation. The forums are full of all sorts.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 09:21:10 PM
Another way of saying that is, "We know that everyone is fucked up, and They think everyone is fucked up besides them."
nice. short and to the point. I'll keep it in mind.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 09:19:24 PM
Also, don't feel bad about having the wrong values. Almost everyone does, because they believe the wrong things, and operate off of bad signal.
Those of us who have "Bob" are the fortunate few. We practice omnifallibility...We assume that everything we know is at least half-horseshit (except Nigel, who has the annoying habit of being right all the fucking time), and we understand, you see, that people - including us - are going to fuck things up royally. Difference is, the rest of the world digs their heels in, while we drop our pance and roll in our own mistakes.
Others argue. We attempt to find good information.
This is why Free Market retards, Libertarians, Democrats, Republicans, Anarchists, and most religions are so insanely fucked in the head.
Zoom goes the correct Holy Motorcycle that you can ride for $29.95
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2011, 09:16:35 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 09:12:04 PM
Yeah, it's funny. People here do it all the time, and it actually INCREASES the respect others have toward them.
Because it shows they can think.
Well, to be fair, that's one thing I noticed about Pickle before. He's stubborn, doesn't stop asking questions until he's convinced.
All in all, not too bad, plus I learned a whole lot of interesting stuff from this thread as well.
I'm not above having my mind changed. In fact, I often look forward to it. I do want as much information as possible about it before I'll consider it. That might come across as stubborn, but it's really so that I can have it clear in my head and help me figure out why I thought about it differently before.
I do my best to ignore you fuckers who toss out "dumbass" "objectivist" ""go fuck yourself" and other insults.
As it turns out, this place is pretty good anger management therapy. The longer I'm here, the less I knee-jerk angry reply.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:37:22 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2011, 09:16:35 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 09:12:04 PM
Yeah, it's funny. People here do it all the time, and it actually INCREASES the respect others have toward them.
Because it shows they can think.
Well, to be fair, that's one thing I noticed about Pickle before. He's stubborn, doesn't stop asking questions until he's convinced.
All in all, not too bad, plus I learned a whole lot of interesting stuff from this thread as well.
I'm not above having my mind changed. In fact, I often look forward to it. I do want as much information as possible about it before I'll consider it. That might come across as stubborn, but it's really so that I can have it clear in my head and help me figure out why I thought about it differently before.
I do my best to ignore you fuckers who toss out "dumbass" "objectivist" ""go fuck yourself" and other insults.
As it turns out, this place is pretty good anger management therapy. The longer I'm here, the less I knee-jerk angry reply.
Here at PD.com we have learned that anger is pretty good apathy management therapy. :)
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 09:39:15 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:37:22 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2011, 09:16:35 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 09:12:04 PM
Yeah, it's funny. People here do it all the time, and it actually INCREASES the respect others have toward them.
Because it shows they can think.
Well, to be fair, that's one thing I noticed about Pickle before. He's stubborn, doesn't stop asking questions until he's convinced.
All in all, not too bad, plus I learned a whole lot of interesting stuff from this thread as well.
I'm not above having my mind changed. In fact, I often look forward to it. I do want as much information as possible about it before I'll consider it. That might come across as stubborn, but it's really so that I can have it clear in my head and help me figure out why I thought about it differently before.
I do my best to ignore you fuckers who toss out "dumbass" "objectivist" ""go fuck yourself" and other insults.
As it turns out, this place is pretty good anger management therapy. The longer I'm here, the less I knee-jerk angry reply.
Here at PD.com we have learned that anger is pretty good apathy management therapy. :)
:lulz:
nice.
Quote from: Charley Brown on May 12, 2011, 09:39:15 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:37:22 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 12, 2011, 09:16:35 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 09:12:04 PM
Yeah, it's funny. People here do it all the time, and it actually INCREASES the respect others have toward them.
Because it shows they can think.
Well, to be fair, that's one thing I noticed about Pickle before. He's stubborn, doesn't stop asking questions until he's convinced.
All in all, not too bad, plus I learned a whole lot of interesting stuff from this thread as well.
I'm not above having my mind changed. In fact, I often look forward to it. I do want as much information as possible about it before I'll consider it. That might come across as stubborn, but it's really so that I can have it clear in my head and help me figure out why I thought about it differently before.
I do my best to ignore you fuckers who toss out "dumbass" "objectivist" ""go fuck yourself" and other insults.
As it turns out, this place is pretty good anger management therapy. The longer I'm here, the less I knee-jerk angry reply.
Here at PD.com we have learned that anger is pretty good apathy management therapy. :)
Still working on that, one, myself, but I'm new here.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 09:14:21 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:08:02 PM
well seeing as how I have the wrong values, It'd be dishonest to not respectfully admit that every post of mine in this thread is potentially wrong.
But hell, if I wanted to spend time on a forum where everyone's values were similar to my own I'd be over at the circle jerk that is Reason.com
I like it here better. Better potential for learning new things.
Reason.com, you say? I just sucked my pance up my arse in anticipation.
TGRR,
Hitting the laptop tonight.
HMMMMMMMM :evil:
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 09:49:14 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 09:14:21 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:08:02 PM
well seeing as how I have the wrong values, It'd be dishonest to not respectfully admit that every post of mine in this thread is potentially wrong.
But hell, if I wanted to spend time on a forum where everyone's values were similar to my own I'd be over at the circle jerk that is Reason.com
I like it here better. Better potential for learning new things.
Reason.com, you say? I just sucked my pance up my arse in anticipation.
TGRR,
Hitting the laptop tonight.
HMMMMMMMM :evil:
I'm trying REALLY hard not to visualize Roger with his pance sucked up his arse, I swear.
WHERE ARE THE FORUMS? I FIND NO FORUMS.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:30:12 PM
well, they don't really have a forum like this place, so the potential for teh funnay is lower. You'd probably do better here:
http://www.dancarlin.com/phpbb3/ though not distinctly libertarian
also this place: http://forum.nationstates.net/viewforum.php?f=20
has a pretty interesting if simple game where you make your own nation. The forums are full of all sorts.
http://reason.com/archives/2003/12/01/live-from-chapel-perilous
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Though it does have one of my favorite quotes:
Quote"Around 1973 I became convinced for a while that I was receiving messages from outer space," he informs us in Maybe Logic. "But then a psychic reader told me that I was actually channeling an ancient Chinese philosopher. And another psychic reader told me I was channeling a medieval Irish bard. And at that time I started reading neurology and I decided it was just my right brain talking to my left brain. And then I went to Ireland and discovered it was actually a six-foot-tall white rabbit -- they call it the pooka."
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 12, 2011, 09:52:57 PM
http://reason.com/archives/2003/12/01/live-from-chapel-perilous
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
they've got a few articles on discordia as well. I'll see if I can find the links when I get home.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:55:40 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 08:22:46 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PMwhat we have now, while flawed, still has checks and balances that help to prevent this sort of thing and is also fluid and able to be changed over time when mistakes are identified.
you're still operating under the false premise that the system, as it currenty exists, is something other than EXACTLY what it was intended to be. Those "checks and balances" are a lie, and nobody who has any degree of control over how the system is shaped has any interest in making changes that you or I would regard as improvements. In fact, they have a heavily vested interest in NOT making any of those sorts of changes.
I'm willing to accept that change in perspective, as fucking bleak as it is.
I ordinarily HATE this phrase, but...
It is what it is.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 11:01:02 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:55:40 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 08:22:46 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PMwhat we have now, while flawed, still has checks and balances that help to prevent this sort of thing and is also fluid and able to be changed over time when mistakes are identified.
you're still operating under the false premise that the system, as it currenty exists, is something other than EXACTLY what it was intended to be. Those "checks and balances" are a lie, and nobody who has any degree of control over how the system is shaped has any interest in making changes that you or I would regard as improvements. In fact, they have a heavily vested interest in NOT making any of those sorts of changes.
I'm willing to accept that change in perspective, as fucking bleak as it is.
I ordinarily HATE this phrase, but...
It is what it is.
what, change in perspective? I almost used "paradigm shift" then thought better of it. I recall Prometheus Rising mentioning changing your view based on new information, but I can't honestly remember exactly where I first learned the concept. Wherever it was, it's proved to be a valuable trait to have.
I think he referred to "it is what it is".
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 13, 2011, 12:16:54 AM
I think he referred to "it is what it is".
oh, right. I should read more slowly.
This is resolving itself in a fairly civilized way. Kudos to all involved.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 13, 2011, 12:23:38 AM
This is resolving itself in a fairly civilized way. Kudos to all involved. You cunts.
Emphasis LMNO's.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 11:01:02 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:55:40 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 08:22:46 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PMwhat we have now, while flawed, still has checks and balances that help to prevent this sort of thing and is also fluid and able to be changed over time when mistakes are identified.
you're still operating under the false premise that the system, as it currenty exists, is something other than EXACTLY what it was intended to be. Those "checks and balances" are a lie, and nobody who has any degree of control over how the system is shaped has any interest in making changes that you or I would regard as improvements. In fact, they have a heavily vested interest in NOT making any of those sorts of changes.
I'm willing to accept that change in perspective, as fucking bleak as it is.
I ordinarily HATE this phrase, but...
It is what it is.
(http://i56.tinypic.com/1huzx3.jpg)
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on May 13, 2011, 12:25:09 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 13, 2011, 12:23:38 AM
This is resolving itself in a fairly civilized way. Kudos to all involved. You cunts.
Emphasis LMNO's.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
It did resolve nicely.
Wait a minute! I'm not done being all self-righteousy and pissed off! Damn you Pickles! Why do you have to be so reasonable?! :argh!:
:lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 13, 2011, 02:02:24 AM
Wait a minute! I'm not done being all self-righteousy and pissed off! Damn you Pickles! Why do you have to be so reasonable?! :argh!:
:lulz:
I may be subconsciously doing it only to get under your skin Phoxy.
I do often take the devil's advocate side of a discussion in order to draw out ideas I might not have heard, but it's never with the intention of pissing people off. I have found it often does, but I only do it with people who I know will bring real ideas to the discussion. Still manages to piss of my buddies when I do it over beers and a table.
It's not that I don't even believe my own bullshit, I just learn more when I take an unpopular position. Could be the debate classes I took in school that influences me to do it.
I've learned quite a bit ITT about what you guys think about legal systems. I appreciate the input and have a lot to think on. I was hoping for more ideas on a better way, but I'm beginning to realize that's not what discordia is about.
I didn't really intend for anyone to be frothing at the mouth to correct the pickle with the wrong values, it just sort of snowballed into that.
SO HOW BOUT THEM PRISONS.
I HEAR THEYRE BANNING BOOKS.
STRANGE TIMES WE LIVE IN.
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on May 13, 2011, 02:55:03 AM
SO HOW BOUT THEM PRISONS.
I HEAR THEYRE BANNING BOOKS.
STRANGE TIMES WE LIVE IN.
yeah about that derail on your thread snatch. sorry about that.
But really, what do you expect from the state that keeps electing Lindsey Graham?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 01:37:21 AM
Your politicizing criminal law a bit there. I was always under the impression that law was reason free of emotion.
My Lawyer friend (who has written briefs presented before the supreme court) would strongly disagree with you there.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 13, 2011, 02:39:29 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 13, 2011, 02:02:24 AM
Wait a minute! I'm not done being all self-righteousy and pissed off! Damn you Pickles! Why do you have to be so reasonable?! :argh!:
:lulz:
I may be subconsciously doing it only to get under your skin Phoxy.
I do often take the devil's advocate side of a discussion in order to draw out ideas I might not have heard, but it's never with the intention of pissing people off. I have found it often does, but I only do it with people who I know will bring real ideas to the discussion. Still manages to piss of my buddies when I do it over beers and a table.
It's not that I don't even believe my own bullshit, I just learn more when I take an unpopular position. Could be the debate classes I took in school that influences me to do it.
I've learned quite a bit ITT about what you guys think about legal systems. I appreciate the input and have a lot to think on. I was hoping for more ideas on a better way, but I'm beginning to realize that's not what discordia is about.
I didn't really intend for anyone to be frothing at the mouth to correct the pickle with the wrong values, it just sort of snowballed into that.
:madbanana:
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 13, 2011, 02:39:29 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on May 13, 2011, 02:02:24 AM
Wait a minute! I'm not done being all self-righteousy and pissed off! Damn you Pickles! Why do you have to be so reasonable?! :argh!:
:lulz:
I may be subconsciously doing it only to get under your skin Phoxy.
I do often take the devil's advocate side of a discussion in order to draw out ideas I might not have heard, but it's never with the intention of pissing people off. I have found it often does, but I only do it with people who I know will bring real ideas to the discussion. Still manages to piss of my buddies when I do it over beers and a table.
It's not that I don't even believe my own bullshit, I just learn more when I take an unpopular position. Could be the debate classes I took in school that influences me to do it.
I've learned quite a bit ITT about what you guys think about legal systems. I appreciate the input and have a lot to think on. I was hoping for more ideas on a better way, but I'm beginning to realize that's not what discordia is about.
I didn't really intend for anyone to be frothing at the mouth to correct the pickle with the wrong values, it just sort of snowballed into that.
:lulz:
We
start out frothing at the mouth, and progress from there as necessary. Don't take it personally.
Quote from: Nigel on May 12, 2011, 09:51:50 PM
WHERE ARE THE FORUMS? I FIND NO FORUMS.
The blog, aptly named "Hit and Run" for the favoured debate technique of its main posters, is where the action is.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:30:12 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2011, 09:14:21 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 09:08:02 PM
well seeing as how I have the wrong values, It'd be dishonest to not respectfully admit that every post of mine in this thread is potentially wrong.
But hell, if I wanted to spend time on a forum where everyone's values were similar to my own I'd be over at the circle jerk that is Reason.com
I like it here better. Better potential for learning new things.
Reason.com, you say? I just sucked my pance up my arse in anticipation.
TGRR,
Hitting the laptop tonight.
well, they don't really have a forum like this place, so the potential for teh funnay is lower. You'd probably do better here:
http://www.dancarlin.com/phpbb3/ though not distinctly libertarian
also this place: http://forum.nationstates.net/viewforum.php?f=20
has a pretty interesting if simple game where you make your own nation. The forums are full of all sorts.
Huh. Wonder if I still have my account at nationstates. Forgot all about that place.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 11:01:02 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:55:40 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 08:22:46 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PMwhat we have now, while flawed, still has checks and balances that help to prevent this sort of thing and is also fluid and able to be changed over time when mistakes are identified.
you're still operating under the false premise that the system, as it currenty exists, is something other than EXACTLY what it was intended to be. Those "checks and balances" are a lie, and nobody who has any degree of control over how the system is shaped has any interest in making changes that you or I would regard as improvements. In fact, they have a heavily vested interest in NOT making any of those sorts of changes.
I'm willing to accept that change in perspective, as fucking bleak as it is.
I ordinarily HATE this phrase, but...
It is what it is.
In my field, you learn to love that phrase.
:lulz: My field expects that 100% of everything you do can be tweaked or improved upon.
Of course, I frequently end up using a very different definition of "improvement" than most people expect.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 13, 2011, 05:55:54 PM
:lulz: My field expects that 100% of everything you do can be tweaked or improved upon.
Of course, I frequently end up using a very different definition of "improvement" than most people expect.
In my field, it goes like this:
Scheduler: "How long to fix the atomizer gearbox?"
Me: "Parts will be in next Wednesday, so call it Friday."
Scheduler: "But we need it in two days."
Me: "It is what it is. Go bitch at the warehouse guy, who didn't feel like ordering the parts until 2 weeks after we put the req in for them."
:lol:
Hey, this is relevant to DP's "illumination":
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fc%2Fa%2F2011%2F05%2F13%2FMNSB1JFE3K.DTL
Cop ran Pleasant Hill brothel, co-defendant says
(05-12) 17:31 PDT PLEASANT HILL -- A Concord private investigator at the center of a law enforcement scandal admits he helped run a house of prostitution in Pleasant Hill, but says the former commander of a Contra Costa County anti-drug task force was the architect of the operation and shut down competing brothels, the investigator's attorney said Thursday.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/05/12/BASB1JFE3K.DTL#ixzz1MOSrg8Xx
Quote from: Telarus on May 15, 2011, 05:51:28 AM
:lol:
Hey, this is relevant to DP's "illumination":
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fc%2Fa%2F2011%2F05%2F13%2FMNSB1JFE3K.DTL
Cop ran Pleasant Hill brothel, co-defendant says
(05-12) 17:31 PDT PLEASANT HILL -- A Concord private investigator at the center of a law enforcement scandal admits he helped run a house of prostitution in Pleasant Hill, but says the former commander of a Contra Costa County anti-drug task force was the architect of the operation and shut down competing brothels, the investigator's attorney said Thursday.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/05/12/BASB1JFE3K.DTL#ixzz1MOSrg8Xx
LMAO. That one just got shared on faceook. :lol:
No surprises there. Concord (and most of Contra Costa County) is like a real-life American version of Mos Eisley.
Bump.
The UK is carrying out a similar policy to this. They are extremely restricting deliveries to prisons (to one in every six weeks) and specifically banning books (as well as targeting clothing).
Why?
Well, our Minister in charge of prisons, Chris Grayling, isn't entirely clear on whether it's meant to be a punitive measure or to prevent drugs. Either way, it's pretty ridiculous.
Prevent drugs?
How does that work, are prisoners grinding up books and snorting them, Burroughs Cities of the red night will get you fucked proper but the latest JK Rowling isn't anywhere near as potent?
Unless it's the physical book size for hollowing out and smuggling purposes. in which case fantasy authors everywhere should stage a protest.
It works due to Chris Grayling being an entirely out of touch toff who has no idea how things get done in reality.
Most drugs are smuggled into prison by prison guards. Or thrown over the walls. When they are actually literally smuggled in, it's normally done inside mobile phones.
Quote from: Cain on April 01, 2014, 01:09:59 PM
It works due to Chris Grayling being an entirely out of touch toff who has no idea how things get done in reality.
Most drugs are smuggled into prison by prison guards. Or thrown over the walls. When they are actually literally smuggled in, it's normally done inside mobile phones.
Does no one still respect the enormous carrying capacity of one's anus, anymore?
Damn shame.
Wow.
Using a hollowed out book to smuggle anything went out of fashion around the same time gas lighting did.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 01, 2014, 01:16:24 PM
Does no one still respect the enormous carrying capacity of one's anus, anymore?
Sure, but I think that would be better off for smuggling drugs in than books. Some books, anyway. Dan Brown would probably be OK.
Quote from: Faust on April 01, 2014, 01:18:42 PM
Wow.
Using a hollowed out book to smuggle anything went out of fashion around the same time gas lighting did.
That's the Tories for you. Good old-fashioned Victorian values...whether they make sense or not.
Quote from: Cain on April 01, 2014, 01:19:17 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 01, 2014, 01:16:24 PM
Does no one still respect the enormous carrying capacity of one's anus, anymore?
Sure, but I think that would be better off for smuggling drugs in than books. Some books, anyway. Dan Brown would probably be OK.
Oxford English Dictionary or bust.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 01, 2014, 01:16:24 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 01, 2014, 01:09:59 PM
It works due to Chris Grayling being an entirely out of touch toff who has no idea how things get done in reality.
Most drugs are smuggled into prison by prison guards. Or thrown over the walls. When they are actually literally smuggled in, it's normally done inside mobile phones.
Does no one still respect the enormous carrying capacity of one's anus, anymore?
Enrico does.
Constantly.
I bow to your... elasticity, mi generalissimo.
Quote from: Faust on April 01, 2014, 01:06:11 PM
Prevent drugs?
How does that work, are prisoners grinding up books and snorting them, Burroughs Cities of the red night will get you fucked proper but the latest JK Rowling isn't anywhere near as potent?
Unless it's the physical book size for hollowing out and smuggling purposes. in which case fantasy authors everywhere should stage a protest.
Drugs let you escape reality, so do books. Can't have prisoners doing any escaping t all.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 13, 2011, 05:00:03 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 11:01:02 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:55:40 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 08:22:46 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PMwhat we have now, while flawed, still has checks and balances that help to prevent this sort of thing and is also fluid and able to be changed over time when mistakes are identified.
you're still operating under the false premise that the system, as it currenty exists, is something other than EXACTLY what it was intended to be. Those "checks and balances" are a lie, and nobody who has any degree of control over how the system is shaped has any interest in making changes that you or I would regard as improvements. In fact, they have a heavily vested interest in NOT making any of those sorts of changes.
I'm willing to accept that change in perspective, as fucking bleak as it is.
I ordinarily HATE this phrase, but...
It is what it is.
In my field, you learn to love that phrase.
In my field, it is what it is, and whatever it is, you have to identify it and explain its reproductive cycle or physical attributes and properties.
Quote from: Nigel on April 02, 2014, 03:32:53 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 13, 2011, 05:00:03 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 11:01:02 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 08:55:40 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on May 12, 2011, 08:22:46 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on May 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PMwhat we have now, while flawed, still has checks and balances that help to prevent this sort of thing and is also fluid and able to be changed over time when mistakes are identified.
you're still operating under the false premise that the system, as it currenty exists, is something other than EXACTLY what it was intended to be. Those "checks and balances" are a lie, and nobody who has any degree of control over how the system is shaped has any interest in making changes that you or I would regard as improvements. In fact, they have a heavily vested interest in NOT making any of those sorts of changes.
I'm willing to accept that change in perspective, as fucking bleak as it is.
I ordinarily HATE this phrase, but...
It is what it is.
In my field, you learn to love that phrase.
In my field, it is what it is, and whatever it is, you have to identify it and explain its reproductive cycle or physical attributes and properties.
In my field, it's only an issue when you're trying to explain basic thermodynamics to people with advanced degrees that should already know that it is what it is.
In my field, it is what it is but you better not let external audit find out about it.
Quote from: Pæs on April 02, 2014, 03:45:15 AM
In my field, it is what it is but you better not let external audit find out about it.
And if he does, you nail his feet to the floor. Or give him to Signora Paesor.
In my field, it is on fire and arguing about that won't fucking change it.
In my field, it is what it is until I give it a fancy French name, then it's something else entirely and costs $28.95 per plate.
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on April 04, 2014, 04:42:38 AM
In my field, it is what it is until I give it a fancy French name, then it's something else entirely and costs $28.95 per plate.
:lulz:
In my field, it's potentially fraud until we make an exception for it.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 04, 2014, 01:14:10 PM
In my field, it's potentially fraud until we make an exception for it.
This is my experience also.